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Yamato

Who are Palestinians?

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Yamato

In order to best understand who a people are, we must first understand the lives they lead. This video presents many scenes from Palestine showing the effects of Israel's 63 year-long policy of ethnic cleansing, as well as some of the activists from around the world who have made an impact in the plight of the Palestinian people, many of whom have risked their lives in the face of Israeli atrocities, some of whom have passed on as a result of those atrocities.

We must be vigilant at all times that we do not judge any people or religion for the actions of any few or the policies of any government. We must strive to see the people through their governments, whether they be Israelis, Palestinians, or anyone else. The human tragedy shown above is the fault of no religion or ethnic group. It is policy that matters, it is policy that counts. In order to understand correctly and ultimately attack this problem successfully, we must keep a clear focus on the crux of the real problem that ensures the human tragedy continues to this day: Israeli government policy. No matter how hard the Israeli government tries to wrap itself up in all that is "Jewish" we must resist that intellectual hijacking. As such, I will have low tolerance for any hate-filled or name-calling tirades about Jews, Arabs, or Muslims.

The sins of another don't excuse the sins here. The "I know of something worse" argument doesn't free the Palestinian people from the horror they remain unable to escape. A bully would garner little sympathy from his victims by reminding them of another bully at another school allegedly even worse than he is. I'm aware there are many problems in the world. Many of them are in Africa where tens of thousands die daily of starvation and a confluence of other factors. There are natural disasters occurring regularly across the globe and people need help. But Palestine is unique in that it is no natural disaster; it's a human disaster. And as human beings we should feel a bond of solidarity with these beautiful and long-suffering people. This solidarity transcends religion, race, creed, or culture. It's a matter of the heart. Many of us will choose to remain desensitized by the purifying rhetoric of our own government bureaucrats and media pundits without really knowing why. Those who can turn a cold shoulder to such inhumanity upon being exposed to it reveal, however passively, the nature of their character. Some simply don't care; however, most don't even realize.

Lest anyone think I'm copying or pasting anything, this video description is my own as is this video.

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Mainpoint

Attempts are being made to erase these poor and innocent people. Sadly its being done through extreme financial and military support of wealthy countries and people are too disinterested to do anything about it.

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Yamato

Attempts are being made to erase these poor and innocent people. Sadly its being done through extreme financial and military support of wealthy countries and people are too disinterested to do anything about it.

+1

Anyone else honest enough to look at a map will agree with you. While the media always presents the events in this conflict as having a point of origin, the greater truth is that the oppression of the Palestinians has remained perpetual through time.

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Q24

+1

Anyone else honest enough to look at a map will agree with you. While the media always presents the events in this conflict as having a point of origin, the greater truth is that the oppression of the Palestinians has remained perpetual through time.

+2

Though could you provide examples of what you mean by “oppression of the Palestinians has remained perpetual through time”?

I’d say re-drawing(s) of the map in the first half of the 20th century was an originating point leading to the present day conflict.

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Yamato

+2

Though could you provide examples of what you mean by “oppression of the Palestinians has remained perpetual through time”?

I’d say re-drawing(s) of the map in the first half of the 20th century was an originating point leading to the present day conflict.

I'd love to! And thank you.

The media ignores the ongoing apartheid within the Palestinian land that doesn't belong to Israel. We hear about the rocket blast which is always the pretext for an Israeli retaliation to defend itself. We're always given the carefully implied message that things were okay over there until someone shot a rocket off. But things weren't okay. Days before the next rocket flies into Israel, a Palestinian family wakes up on Palestinian territory in fear for their children's futures and their own freedom, in fear of other family members' lives who live one settlement over and across a highway that they're not allowed to cross. The multiple and isolated Israeli settlements built and growing on Palestinian land need to be connected, after all. What looks like a contiguous chunk of land (albeit cut off from the sea) is actually chopped into a series of smaller pieces broken apart like the spaces within a spider web, slowly being eaten away by a human cancer. Their father walks to work, not allowed to use the connecting roads the Israelis use, herded like cattle through long lines of fencing rigged with barbed wire, through gates of Israeli militants demanding the same identification they've asked for a thousand times before in their needless, endless harassment. Along the way he sees more land being confiscated by Israel. Israeli bulldozers are out that day, tearing down the broken pieces of Palestinian buildings that once stood there, now unidentifiable through the dust clouds and rubble. He can't remember if they were homes of private citizens or public buildings, but it doesn't matter now. Meanwhile his family turns their radio on and hears of more examples of the colonization and settlement construction on Palestinian land which they, of all people, didn't need anymore reminders of. Unable to exercise political will, unable to exercise self-determination, unable to export or have an measure of an economy, they bear these burdens the next day and the day after that, and every day to come. Every aspect of their lives is affected negatively because of this nightmarish police state that they can't wake up from. Unable to escape the occupation forces of Israel, they are forced to continue living in one of the worst examples of human rights deprivation in the world today. And this is only the West Bank I'm talking about. And then the rocket lands in Israel. And then the media reports on it. And only then, Americans who decadently take their own civil liberties for granted are made to pay attention by their establishment, flush with Zionist hooch.

The cause of the conflict is perpetual. It exists every minute of every day and every night, including the minutes of the days and nights before the next rocket attack, or whatever other event directed against Israel the US finds important enough to pay attention to. This apartheid is not based on racism. It's based on a desire by a minority of Israelis to take Palestinian land. The Palestinians must remain subjugated, incessantly, to prevent them from expressing their disapproval of the robbery of their own property. The people in the West especially in the US are blase-ignorant. They're goaded, they're made guilty, they're afraid of being branded as "anti-Semitic" just for speaking out. They're afraid of their government and being branded a terrorist for sending humanitarian aid or donating to any organization that does. Beyond the immorality of sitting idly by while the freedoms we conveniently thrive on are forcibly denied by our alleged "allies", we're also unable to comprehend that this theft is in direct violation of UN Security Council Resolutions, it's in violation of the Quartet's road map for peace, it's in violation of the commitments that leaders of Israel have made in the past sitting face to face with US Presidents. And I'm not even going to address violations like war crimes, and what some might call the crimes against humanity, that always go unpunished when the Israeli government commits them. I suspect someone will come along in convenient ignorance of everything else I've said here and focus solely on that which will be my pleasure.

The reactions to this nightmare is, every now and then, violent. And I think we're many miles beyond whether the use of violence in response to this kind of behavior is arguable or not. That's a topic of discussion that's open for debate and we can have one right here as a good place to start. In 1776, we Americans were fed up with England dictating to us that our lives across an ocean weren't worth enough to be given the same rights that "English gentlemen" enjoyed. Because of this wretched disparity in the treatment of people, we decided there would be a lot of dead Brits lying around. And we decided that their laws were no longer welcome here. Liberty remains under assault today, and Palestine is a grisly experiment in human bondage showcasing how the innocent are treated in the face of the "guilty" who would fight back. Colonial America was a paradise compared to the standard of living, if I can even call it a standard of living, that Palestinians must live with every day. Equal rights are either worth fighting for or they aren't. It's an exercise in bigotry to cherry-pick which groups deserve them and which ones don't. If we Americans, supposed lovers of freedom, supposed defenders of liberty, are going to sit here in front of the likes of me, and bear any semblance of a single standard from how we determine when violence is justified in the defense of freedom, we would reflect that lack of hypocrisy in a foreign policy that's the polar opposite of the one we've been allowing our government for far too long.

Incidentally, we've been discussing the importance of motivation in the commission of crimes on this board in other threads and that bears a significant relevance here. Even if we're going to agree that any violent action of a Palestinian against his or her oppressors is a crime, we're not paying any attention to the motivations for that crime. It's "anti-Semitism" right? They "hate us for our freedom". And that's all that we need to know, so the years have taught us. And what become the results of this status-quo we've been spending so much blood and treasure on to keep propped up for all these years? If we're fine with ignoring any sense of morality in this conflict, why should we care? This is one of the most important videos you will ever see on Youtube:

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hetrodoxly

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda meir.

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Yamato

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda meir.

More group-think mentality. More "Arabs" and "Jews" speak. How helpful.

Peace will come when we understand that one's submission to oppression isn't proportionate to the love of one's children.

I will argue that the truth is closer to the exact opposite.

How could any American support rejecting the liberty of others with brutal force control?

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LittleCasper

Sure, the answer is clear (Palestinians are being Erased)

Before Israel creation in 1948 Zionists would meet in a Congress located in Switzerland and in the 16th Congress of World Zionist Organization of Basel presented a plan, to create a new home for the Jewish people to rule the world from their, they wrote their plans in Hebrew but some pro peace Jewish activists translated their plans which they don't dispute. And in 1947 Rabbi Fischman presented a plan to a United Nation council that the new home of Israel will extend from the Nile to Euphrates http://www.informationclearinghouse.info… http://www.middle-east-studies.net/?p=23…

This is why Israelis want other nations land, and it can only be done through divide and conquer.

They want to move the location of Jerusalem, which has been in Palestine for the past 2,000 + years.

The Palestinians want just one half of Jerusalem & israel refuse to share, they want the city from themselves.

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Yamato

This is why Israelis want other nations land, and it can only be done through divide and conquer.

They want to move the location of Jerusalem, which has been in Palestine for the past 2,000 + years.

The Palestinians want just one half of Jerusalem & israel refuse to share, they want the city from themselves.

+1

And our politicians do too. I'll provide some appetizers. Michelle Bachmann just spoke at the Zionist Organization of America and insisted that the US Embassy be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. She argued that the real problem over there isn't "apartment buildings being constructed five miles away from the Knesset." Barack Obama, in his 2008 speech to AIPAC, gave his support for a united Jerusalem for Israel. I was stunned. Of course, it went completely ignored. There were too many other speeches to judge him on and 95+% of his colleagues agree with him anyway.

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Leonardo

Irrespective of whether the Palestinian peoples have a claim to ancient title in the Middle East, they exist as a people now and have as much right to a claim of cultural and national independence as any other group of people with such an identity.

All this talk of "did they exist in biblical times" etc, is a smokescreen hiding this fact.

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LittleCasper

+1

And our politicians do too. I'll provide some appetizers. Michelle Bachmann just spoke at the Zionist Organization of America and insisted that the US Embassy be moved from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem. She argued that the real problem over there isn't "apartment buildings being constructed five miles away from the Knesset." Barack Obama, in his 2008 speech to AIPAC, gave his support for a united Jerusalem for Israel. I was stunned. Of course, it went completely ignored. There were too many other speeches to judge him on and 95+% of his colleagues agree with him anyway.

I Agree with Leonardo that Palestinians have rights to claim, but the big Issue now is that, who listens to their claims?! who admits their presence? who can really take actions to give them their rapped rights?

Edited by LittleCasper

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Yamato

I Agree with Leonardo that Palestinians have rights to claim, but the big Issue now is that, who listens to their claims?! who admits their presence? who can really take actions to give them their rapped rights?

Hear hear! I think that's the best first question. I showed a lot of people, Palestinian and otherwise, in the video who either have listened or still listen. People are taking action out there, it's just a matter of finding them. You won't find them in the US media or the messages that American people hear about and believe in. You won't hear them from the bureau. I suspect that the millions of dollars flowing into Egypt every day for all these years kept the Egyptian people sanitized from listening to it in your national spotlight too.

Like all great actions throughout history that change the world, it's never the bureaucrats that change it. They only cause many of the problems and only take the credit for solving them. Giving us false choices between the red and the blue making us think we have a choice; making us think that one color of them are the answer to what ails us. There's always a smiley-faced politician to get up in front of a podium after some sweeping Act of Congress gets passed and take the credit for something. But that's not who makes the world a better place. It wasn't any politician that gave women the right to vote, it was the suffragettes who fought for years, who risked their lives and went to jail for what they believed in that won that battle. Egypt is a sterling example in recent history of the same thing. Real political change that's stable and loyal and built to last must come from within, and it's always the power of people who can use what freedom they have to push it through.

Here's a current example of a courageous leader who listens and takes the kind of action I think we need more of:

You might notice she appears twice in my video as well.

"If governments will not do what they're supposed to do, those of us in civil society will continue to try." ~ Huwaida Arraf

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Knight Of Shadows

only arabs have the " will " to take their rights which is clearly can be taken from israel only by force " the way it was taken "

palestinians history been erasing by israel since first britian gave the land " give " is very stupid concept

coz the land didn't belong to england at first place so giving or selling land you " stole " to some one doesn't really make it their land

israel attempted to erase their history with successs to some point regarding the western world but to arabs our history is well known

and it could never be erased there was ethnic cleansing in palestine a whole villages destroy along with their people

the major number of palestinians dropped since israel arrivial .. and the mass number scattared in arabic countries

to as how can they reclaim their right ? appearntly none of the west interested in that .. they're more interested in protecting their precious israel

and the fact that israel control usa " financially " speaking

so the matter can be settled with war ... beside israel would never agree to anything they're pretty greedy and want the whole land to them self as part of their " jewish state " .... and people nag about islamic countries :lol:

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Uncle Sam

Expel the Islamic extremist from the Pakistan land, you would probably get peace. Israel wouldn't have to fear a attack by these radicals who claim to be Pakistan, but foreign in nature. The strain and relationship between both countries would improve. That won't help the Anti-Israel and Anti-American sentiment in those countries. It is taught in schools, it is advocated by the government, and is spurred on by extremist who really don't care about the life of their fellow beings. They just want to see the end of Israel so bad, that they are willing to kill and maim anybody that offer themselves as a sacrifice against Israel. Proxies, extremists, suicidal bombing, unreasonable demands, and other things are slowing this down. Israel is using an old war tactic, which is designed to force extremists or other enemy states to surrender, by cutting off their aid and supply. Ever heard of the saying War kills indiscriminately... well it does, because bombs are not accurate and explosions are uncontrollable. Heck the terrorist love to commit suicidal bombing, which kills more civilians than troops from foreign countries. That is right, if anything, it is the terrorists the Muslims should be mad at and act against.

I don't deny the fact that Israel has caused war crimes against Pakistan, but giving the light of the circumstance, it is pretty hard to separate extremist from Regular Citizens of Pakistan. Look at it at Israel's point of view... having GAZA land will create a buffer for Israel, making it much harder for extremists to fire rockets into their cities. Once extremists denounce their violence against Israel, then you might see GAZA returned to Pakistan. Who in their right mind would lose the single thing that keeps terrorists from firing rockets into all parts of their land? Israel is fighting for Existance, Pakistan is fighting for a piece of land and extermination of Israel.

Edited by Uncle Sam

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Knight Of Shadows

i don't think the 48 borders line is unreasonable demands for people who owned the land and it was ripped off their hands do you ?

most arabs would be willing to have peace with israel when they give palestinians " reasonable " solution like 48 borders

but no no they got to keep building settlements and destroy homes of other palestinians what would you expect them or all arabs to feel about it

should we say ? please .. that's unacceptable ? :D:rolleyes: and be good boys

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Yamato

i don't think the 48 borders line is unreasonable demands for people who owned the land and it was ripped off their hands do you ?

most arabs would be willing to have peace with israel when they give palestinians " reasonable " solution like 48 borders

but no no they got to keep building settlements and destroy homes of other palestinians what would you expect them or all arabs to feel about it

should we say ? please .. that's unacceptable ? :D:rolleyes: and be good boys

The devil's always in the details whenever complex issues like this start to get addressed. I hoped for some common ground on a more fundamental level first before going there. I didn't want to get into borders on this thread, which are always a political non-starter for someone out there who can't even accept the moral or human element of the conditions there. But because I don't think it's sufficient to simply find a sympathetic ear and then leave the issue forgotten either, I'll address your questions, and I have spent some years thinking about the nuts and bolts required in dealing with this.

I don't want to paint one side as Arab because any non-Arab Palestinian or person living there seeking Palestinian citizenship upon achieving Palestine's statehood would want human rights, freedom, peace, statehood, and etc also. Also, doing that will invite someone else who will try to hijack the discussion by pointing out there are Arabs in Israel, or Arabs somewhere else, which again, is incidental and not important to the issues. Splitting Palestinians up into groups, and doing the same to Israelis, bears no productive purpose in solving these problems. It's a reflection of the "divide and conquer" mentality I think I recall you mentioned earlier. Likewise it doesn't matter which Israelis are Jews in determining their human rights. Israelis deserve them equally regardless. Descending into whatever characteristics between groups is always counterproductive and never accomplishes anything worthwhile. It's the favorite tactic of all those who would not see Palestine or Israel exist.

In answer to your question, no, I don't think it's unreasonable. In fact, the 1947 borders would represent the basis from which I would negotiate from. And I'd be well aware that I am sitting across the table from officials who say that "the 1967 borders are indefensible", which is a very sneaky unassuming way of saying that what they're doing over there on Palestinian land is going to continue.

I have a problem with the 1967 borders too, but that's for an entirely different reason. It's impractical to have a state split into two fragments which must be crossed over through a hostile neighbor. I don't know of any other such arrangement in the world today and if there's even an historical precedent for it, it didn't last. There again, when we have to put up with these kinds of "plans" from global organizations and try to deal with them, we're going to run into a lack of precedence by definition. I wouldn't expect the arteries between these pieces, the West Bank and Gaza Strip, to last a year without Israel chopping them up and citing security concerns as the reason for doing so. Someone will be launching rockets from the bridge, or whatever. So it's totally unrealistic for anyone to expect that it wouldn't be a very problematic and resource consuming problem that would be a constant irritant on both sides. The 1947 borders on the other hand are infinitely more appealing to me because they're contiguous. Aside from two "points" which are a lot more realistic to patrol/secure than long snaking highways that cut Israel in two over half of her length. It would need to be little more than a four-way intersection with traffic on one path Israeli, and traffic on the other Palestinian. Moreover, the 1947 borders also fairly drawn, and would re-validate the original partition plan that Israel enjoyed in its creation in the first place.

I remember another poster on the History forums who went by the username PersianPride was of the opinion that the partition and the whole UN fiasco shouldn't have happened in the first place. While I agreed with him in spirit, I also recognize that if we were to try to administer that spirit it would require doing the same thing to the Israelis that was done to the Palestinians. It would mean repeating the same mistake. Which is unacceptable to me because two wrongs don't make a right. This region has had more than its fill of revenge and retribution to last 10 lifetimes.

There are of course other issues that must be dealt with. The siege of Gaza, the fate of Jerusalem, the right of return, security provisions on both sides, the birthing of a proper Palestinian statehood, and so forth.

I think if there was ever a good use for international military forces to go somewhere and do something it'd be a wave of smiling blue helmets from the UN to serve in both Israel and Palestine to keep the peace between both sides. This would be a truly international body of forces from all over the world and the visibility would be wide open, media from any nation would be welcomed in, and under that kind of sunlight the facts could get out and would be reported in a more consistent, less ignorant manner. Of course there will be those who don't want that kind of visibility, but it would avoid the problems associated with the lack of credibility much of the world thinks either side of this conflict suffers from. If it's impractical for them to serve throughout the area of both countries, then at least on/near the two choke-points where Israel and Palestine come together in the '47 borders, and perhaps also maintain a strong presence within Jerusalem.

There are still other extraneous issues like the Golan Heights which don't need to be addressed in an agreement with Palestine; that is, Israel doesn't need to address territory it didn't take from Palestinians. Maybe they should, independently of this. And I don't want to lose you on everything else I've said because it's a political hotspot that Israel has with Syria. And finally, I know I'm really shooting for the moon here and I realize the forces, political and otherwise, that are arrayed against me, but I also think that shooting for the moon and coming up short still leaves you pretty high up, and likely a lot higher up than we otherwise would've been.

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Knight Of Shadows

you'll have to excuse me first as as arab i get little worked up and emotionally involved in the matter :rolleyes:

and i know i am biased on this matter to the palestinians side of course

but it's just we all hope for peace there but appearntly appearntly .. israel is not interested in peace

there couldn't be peace as long israel keep building settlements

you know why they do ? so they can keep saying : " the 67 borders could not be protecting with all settlements and changes on ground "

and therefore pretty soon 67 borderlines will be history and israel will put new borders which gives palestinians 100M square :D

it's pretty clear israel aims to keep to destory homes build settlements so they can always say " ohh changes on reality happened

and the new settlements cannot be protected with 2014 borders ... "

you see am not against israel .. but am with solution that give both equal rights and lands

am not with israel's solutions which say they should take the meat and palestinians should scrape through the bones

and the 48 borderlines are pretty more than fair deal if you ask me " for a land they stole "

but to the most important thing you must realize that THERE IS NO ONE in the west is willing to claim that

and whatever goes in Security Council you got the everlasting american veto when it's about israel

so yeah you got the picture there

for golan heights it's different issue that lands is illegally occupied but appearntly israel think of it as their " own "

and they build settlements on it ... i hate to see all the money they put in there wasted when we ripp it off back :D

but it's not related with palstine i think .. but if israel wants peace with nighboors it should go to 48 .. give golan back ..

and yeah there could be chance there for peace .. otherwise i doubt it

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Mr.United_Nations

i don't think the 48 borders line is unreasonable demands for people who owned the land and it was ripped off their hands do you ?

most arabs would be willing to have peace with israel when they give palestinians " reasonable " solution like 48 borders

but no no they got to keep building settlements and destroy homes of other palestinians what would you expect them or all arabs to feel about it

should we say ? please .. that's unacceptable ? :D:rolleyes: and be good boys

Welcome back!!!!

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Knight Of Shadows

hey dude thanks i'd ask you how're you doing but that would sound like going off topic so

how're you doing ? :D

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Yamato

you'll have to excuse me first as as arab i get little worked up and emotionally involved in the matter :rolleyes:

and i know i am biased on this matter to the palestinians side of course

but it's just we all hope for peace there but appearntly appearntly .. israel is not interested in peace

there couldn't be peace as long israel keep building settlements

you know why they do ? so they can keep saying : " the 67 borders could not be protecting with all settlements and changes on ground "

and therefore pretty soon 67 borderlines will be history and israel will put new borders which gives palestinians 100M square :D

it's pretty clear israel aims to keep to destory homes build settlements so they can always say " ohh changes on reality happened

and the new settlements cannot be protected with 2014 borders ... "

you see am not against israel .. but am with solution that give both equal rights and lands

am not with israel's solutions which say they should take the meat and palestinians should scrape through the bones

and the 48 borderlines are pretty more than fair deal if you ask me " for a land they stole "

but to the most important thing you must realize that THERE IS NO ONE in the west is willing to claim that

and whatever goes in Security Council you got the everlasting american veto when it's about israel

so yeah you got the picture there

for golan heights it's different issue that lands is illegally occupied but appearntly israel think of it as their " own "

and they build settlements on it ... i hate to see all the money they put in there wasted when we ripp it off back :D

but it's not related with palstine i think .. but if israel wants peace with nighboors it should go to 48 .. give golan back ..

and yeah there could be chance there for peace .. otherwise i doubt it

It's very nice to meet you! The best thing of all about the internet is the ability to meet new people from all around the world.

I remember hearing the reasons you've mentioned, that Israeli officials gave about the '67 borders. The implication I got from it is the same as yours, that the more Palestinian land they build on, the more inflexible they will be at brokering an agreement. I've always had the sense that time isn't on the side of the state of Palestine and that full Statehood becomes more and more difficult to realize as the policies and conflict drag on.

In the reply above I acted like an insider sitting at the table contending with the task of negotiating for Palestine. From the perspective of an outsider and an American, I don't have any hope at all of the US ever voting against Israel on a UN resolution so I've conceded that it would be pointless to insist on that ever happening. It would probably be pointless to insist on any pro-Palestine action from this government at all unless one were to take some sort of hidden pleasure from asking for things one will never get. But what I arrived at is something I hope is a lot more realistic to hope for, to simply take a position of neutrality. If there's a Security Council resolution, and it's fundamentally another matter of voting for either one side or the other, abstain from voting to not have a position on the resolution one way or the other. Regarding foreign aid, the neutral position to take is to reduce all foreign aid to zero. Regarding weapons proliferation, the number of weapons we proliferate to the Middle East, including Israel, is zero. What American wouldn't resent the country that was arming the enemy that was killing our families? There is no such American, not one brave or stupid enough to admit it at least. In general, the idea is to take a neutral stance and not involve ourselves in the internal affairs of any of these countries. Most people can't handle fairness like that. I also don't think that private citizens of the US should be banned from giving freely to whatever country they want. Obviously there would be exceptions to this kind of freedom in a time of war for instance. And our government seems to have way too many "national interests" that conflict with our peoples' freedom to give to whomever we choose. But if we begin taking a neutral stance towards the Middle East, I think that nations there will find new arms dealers and buy their weapons from them. Or they can design and build their own as Israel does to a degree. I think if Israel was wholly responsible for their own defense they might be more thoughtful and open-minded to how they deal with threats.

I reject the notion that if the US doesn't sell arms to some country, they won't be able to defend themselves. That country can get better bang for the buck by buying from a non-US supplier anyway, unless it's another "sweetheart deal" where the US taxpayer pays part or all of the bill. We broker these arms deals that want other countries to buy weapons from our military contractors and it's what I call the "Corporatocracy" once again rearing its ugly head where big government and big business serve their own interests and we're trained to call those our "national interests" collectively. I don't mind having a message of peace and trading peaceful goods and services. Where weapons are concerned, people get killed, and in the case of Israel, they do so quite often. It's not unreasonable to expect other people from nearby countries to resent that. That's just common sense.

I want to say a few words about oil here before I wrap up. There's an old saying: "Necessity is the mother of Invention" and I think that if gasoline prices become $6.00 or $8.00 per gallon over here because we don't have the military control over the Middle East that we used to, and (giving the advocates of foreign wars the benefit of the doubt) the oil spigot doesn't flow like it used to, then we'll be even more motivated here at home to develop alternatives to replace that lost foreign oil, we will innovate like we've done so many times in the past, and ultimately the marketplace will supply our demand for energy. It's troubling to me though that the politicians that make the most noise about high oil prices are also the most warlike with regards to Middle East policy and the most insistent on increasing domestic oil production. And they always approach the problem in the wrong way because if we want to get off the oil the solution isn't to get on more of it. The solution to a heroin addiction isn't a big syringe packed full of heroin.

In my country it's nearly Christmas time which is traditionally a time of joy. I regret hearing about the violence in your country and I hope you and your family stay safe and experience some joy in your lives too.

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Knight Of Shadows

it's nice to meet you too dude the pleasure all mine and thanks for your sympathy with my country

to tell the truth it's becoming more and more clear that usa is more forced than willingly helping israel

like i said earlier you know .. perhpaps know even better than me that israel control usa fianancly speaking

now that explains why before elections or re-elections you see the american president kissing the israelis asses

and making ringing speeches about how will they support israel and now to a level that the new candidate slammed the world

by his criticize and accused palestinians to be " invented " as a attempt to presuade the israelies " to allow " him to be president

and i guess he's on the top of other candidate i guess right ?

it's more that usa is forced to help israel than willing to help them due to the fact that they control the main finance sources

now everyone knows am against usa waging wars for oil around the world and such but there's other ways for getting rich

and good country rather than waging wars .. take japan for example a country that depends on electronics cars etc etc

but usa seems to want to be " superior in militray auspect " on other nations

for example some one mentioned stop those pakistan terrorists from bombing outside countries in america or such

i wonder why he didn't mention how those terrorists came up and started doing what they're doing

they didn't wake up in the morning suddenly and says : hey ! let's go find some market to bomb ! :D

" of course am against any action to harm civilians no matter the reason "

but those terrorists he speak of were originally tribes between pakistian and afghanstan and usa choppers and aircraft

raised hell on those tribes " belong to talibian " during their " invasion " or afghanstan

afghantstan is countries with people who do resistance for a living .. it's their live there was many countries tried to occupy them

but these people just can't live with invaders now did he nag about usa attacking those people at home ? no

he just nag about the violent reaction taken by those people against countries contrbuted in their massacare with usa

anyway that's not the topic at hand but i just wanted to clear why people never wonder why those people do what they do

just try to trap any animal in corner to hurt it .. and normally he'll try to fight back and hurt you anyway .. that's normal

now back to palestine you see i've got very high hopes for the coming years for palestine and you may ask why

the reason is the next : now in this certain time arabic countries going through changes

now the people no longer can be ruled by force by so called presidents and kings the people rule them self and represented seriously

by their coming goverments unlike this temporary time ... and when the people are free to interact in their outside policy

let's be honest now all arabs aren't really fan of israel killing their palestinians brothers :lol:

egypt .. tunisia .. and lybia and now my country in the future even iraq won't settle for their current rule in fact

some voice started to say malki rule in iraq is solitary and not democratic .. and so on with other arabic countries on the way

and israel lost vital alley .. " turkey " due to their stubborness for not apologizing for masscaring the people on turkey aid ship

if you take deep look on the major situation of the area .. it's not really going well for israel favor

after egypt revolution .. which is still going the first thing their military council said : israel shouldn't expect that they can

keep killing palestinians and egypt won't interfer .. the time of mubark is done "

and soon every new goverment will " RACE " to show their people that their supportive of arabs goal of giving our palestinians brothers

their just and fair rights in their own country ... and which way better than to take measure against israel !

during this time i've seen something i really forgot i never see ..when people in yemen get killed people in lybia protest in their support

when in my country some get killed yemen protest for us and so on goes the list what once kept us apart and thus weak

is the forced rule ... with fake ideals and empty promises now it's go i really thing israel got a tough time ahead

anyway i think i wrote too much time for a smoke :D

sorry for getting out of topic often though

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LittleCasper

I don't deny the fact that Israel has caused war crimes against Pakistan, but giving the light of the circumstance, it is pretty hard to separate extremist from Regular Citizens of Pakistan. Look at it at Israel's point of view... having GAZA land will create a buffer for Israel, making it much harder for extremists to fire rockets into their cities. Once extremists denounce their violence against Israel, then you might see GAZA returned to Pakistan. Who in their right mind would lose the single thing that keeps terrorists from firing rockets into all parts of their land? Israel is fighting for Existance, Pakistan is fighting for a piece of land and extermination of Israel.

I think you are talking about another Issue (Uncle Sam) we are talking about Palestine not Pakistan ;)

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President-Elect Acidhead

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Golda meir.

So in other words - They submit to authority over them.

That Meir quote wasn't well thought out and is repeated daily by thoughtless individuals.

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hetrodoxly

So in other words - They submit to authority over them.

That Meir quote wasn't well thought out and is repeated daily by thoughtless individuals.

It was a well thought out and accurate statement, and only disliked by a certain section of society because it's true and would hold no gravitas and annoy the likes of you if otherwise, Palestinians use their children as human shields, dress their babies as suicide bomber and teach them the mantra " Jews are pigs & dogs kill all Jews" so what bit of Golda Meir's statement is wrong?

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Mr.United_Nations

Pretty good thanks. Back to topic Why does Israel fear more of Palestine than say like Iran?

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