Who are Palestinians?

[MichaelW]

Your statement seems to be a bit silly, if I'm being honest. Hamas I can understand - the propaganda surrounding that 'faction' is overwhelming, so I could not blame you for thinking that they do not want peace - but Fatah have been openly working with Israel, recieving aid from them, as well as negotiating with them for years, in one form or another. How you can think that neither faction will even consider negotiations is beyond me.

When they've been firing missiles into Israel basically, since they came to power, one can understand why one would feel a little apprehensive that Hamas can stick to a peace agreement.

And just to correct you: the numbers prove that Israel has been grossly over-armed when compared to the Palestinians. They have tanks, an array of missiles (U.S. built), a trained - expertly trained - military, an air force unmatched by any in the region, U.S. supplied choppers, and a thousand other advantages over the indigenous people of Palestine. It does not prove, as you claim, that Israel has 'resolve'. No doubt in the grand scheme of things the people of that country do, but it has never been the reason they maul the Palestinians. They have never been truly attacked by said Palestinians (who themselves do not even have the ability to do so).

This is because the IDF was (and primarily is) gear towards conventional warfare against its neighbours like Egypt and Syria. But seeing as Assad is content with using his own armed forces against his own people, and Egypt's military government appears to be on its way out, along with various peace treaties, Israel hasn't had any conventional war since the 80's. And even then, they were still facing militias, occaisonally coming up against Syrian troops.

But thanks for stating the obvious. Also, Israel has a very prolific arms industry, so the majority of weapons in use by the IDF have been designed and developed in Israel. Including the latest anti-missile defence system.

[Yamato]

Clearly, you need to watch the news a bit more. The worst examples of human rights deprivation are not being cause by Israel, but by her neighbours against their own people. But of course, 3000 people dead in Syria is nothing because Israel issues airstrike in civilian areas.

I'm dismissing the BS you seem to be spouting at the moment. Seriously, you need to get that checked. Also, what's with this psuedo-psycological crap?

Funnily enough, government policy more often than not in this region, translates to the same attitudes from the people. I can't imagine the majority of Syrians don't support Hezbollah when their government does, or Hamas. You seem to think that their governments aren't reflective of their people, and in some cases, you are right. The Israelis for instance, are not all like Benjamin Netanyahu. The Egyptians weren't like Mubarak.

Clearly, you need to watch the news a bit more. The worst examples of human rights deprivation are not being cause by Israel, but by her neighbours against their own people. But of course, 3000 people dead in Syria is nothing because Israel issues airstrike in civilian areas.

The difference between that and my tax money you don't care about is that my tax money isn't paying to prop that nonsense up. The difference is, my solutions in the form of policy change would stop paying for that nonsense immediately should I also be dealing with the same stupid reality of paying for that too. Changing the subject to Syrians is impotent. It doesn't lessen the tyranny that Palestinians are suffering from every day. I preempted the subject changing Zionist kool aid like yours from the very first post on this thread: "Hey look at that sin over there instead, it's worse than this sin over here".

I'm dismissing the BS you seem to be spouting at the moment. Seriously, you need to get that checked. Also, what's with this psuedo-psycological crap?

BS? Pseudo-psychological? You are either severely uninformed and don't know those facts or are another cold blooded Zionist who can't handle those facts that I just spouted. Foreign policy is economic policy. It's actual money being spent right now to actually proliferate weapons, to give political cover to Israeli bureaucrats, to keep this insanity propped up for far too long. I won't pretend like I'm the boss of the money you earned and paid out in taxes, the boss of your silly government and what it must continue to do on the other side of the planet, and I won't dig up petty or irrelevant reasons to blame the Crown or the Australians for what YOUR bureaucrats do to the Maori when/if I compose a thread on that in the near future.

Funnily enough, government policy more often than not in this region, translates to the same attitudes from the people.

You're describing democracy and using democracy as yet another excuse for tyranny. How intellectually confused.

I can't imagine the majority of Syrians don't support Hezbollah when their government does, or Hamas.

So you don't even have a source for your claim above about how government policy in the region translates, it's just your lack of imagination then.

You seem to think that their governments aren't reflective of their people, and in some cases, you are right.

People worldwide make terrible decisions for choosing their leadership, get a grip that it's no reason to excuse tyranny or justify collective punishment on those people, let alone fail to think hard enough to be able to differentiate people from the policies of their own bureaucrats, let alone foreign bureaucrats who have no sovereignty over them. You are sloppily grasping for as many weak handed excuses to prop this evil up you can think of, but there isn't a single standard in sight.

The Israelis for instance, are not all like Benjamin Netanyahu. The Egyptians weren't like Mubarak.

So because of these instances, I am right. Israelis are probably the greatest power of all to affect the changes in this region we are discussing here. Thus, we reject the whole "Jew" and "Arab" nonsense as I initially pointed out.

[+and-then]

They have never been truly attacked by said Palestinians

And I submit that Israel has never truly used it's full capabilities...yet. When the inevitable war comes we may see that change.

A question for you though - and I'll try not to be too silly (it's a character defect I'm working on) : In your mind what would be a truly just and equitable solution to this dilemma?

[hetrodoxly]

I have called you very little of note (if anything at all), yet in his thread you have called me a fascist, a left-wing Nazi and hit me with other ad hominen attacks. I think you are confused.

And I just had to laugh at your Pallywood assertions... Seriously, funny stuff there.

If you want a real laugh go and have a look at pallywood, on a more serious note, http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=13228

[MichaelW]

The difference between that and my tax money you don't care about is that my tax money isn't paying to prop that nonsense up. The difference is, my solutions in the form of policy change would stop paying for that nonsense immediately should I also be dealing with the same stupid reality of paying for that too. Changing the subject to Syrians is impotent. It doesn't lessen the tyranny that Palestinians are suffering from every day. I preempted the subject changing Zionist kool aid like yours from the very first post on this thread: "Hey look at that sin over there instead, it's worse than this sin over here".

Neither is mine. And exactly what tyranny every day? As far as I'm concerned, many Palestinians are living their lives as normal as they can get when you live in a warzone. People get up, go to work, visit family, got to school and nothing happens.

BS? Pseudo-psychological? You are either severely uninformed and don't know those facts or are another cold blooded Zionist who can't handle those facts that I just spouted. Foreign policy is economic policy. It's actual money being spent right now to actually proliferate weapons, to give political cover to Israeli bureaucrats, to keep this insanity propped up for far too long. I won't pretend like I'm the boss of the money you earned and paid out in taxes, the boss of your silly government and what it must continue to do on the other side of the planet, and I won't dig up petty or irrelevant reasons to blame the Crown or the Australians for what YOUR bureaucrats do to the Maori when/if I compose a thread on that in the near future.

Me? A Zionist? How original.

Also, I don't care what the so-called bureaucrats do the Maori. The latter seem to have this victim mentality and that they are always being mistreated by the government, a bit like your precious Palestinians. Ever since the government starting handing over land worth millions to the local iwi, they've tried to claim everything as their own, from the foreshore and seabed to radio waves. Do you really think I care about the so-called "rights" that Maori supposedly have over everyone else? I can tell you that we aren't the democracy we portray ourseleves to be. Do Arabs enjoy Arab specific seats in the Knesset? No. They get elected to their positions in the Knesset through their skills as a politician. Can't say the same about the Maori.

So you don't even have a source for your claim above about how government policy in the region translates, it's just your lack of imagination then.

I see no sources backing up your argument. Not that there would be any, because you're "facts" are non-existant.

People worldwide make terrible decisions for choosing their leadership, get a grip that it's no reason to excuse tyranny or justify collective punishment on those people, let alone fail to think hard enough to be able to differentiate people from the policies of their own bureaucrats, let alone foreign bureaucrats who have no sovereignty over them. You are sloppily grasping for as many weak handed excuses to prop this evil up you can think of, but there isn't a single standard in sight.

The perhaps you could extend a little sympathy towards those who couldn't choose their leaders and have to suffer the consequences when they don't want that leader.

So because of these instances, I am right. Israelis are probably the greatest power of all to affect the changes in this region we are discussing here. Thus, we reject the whole "Jew" and "Arab" nonsense as I initially pointed out.

When one claims that they are right, one immediately looses all chances of winning that argument. Listen, do us a favour. Read a dictionary. Look up the definition of "tyranny". Apply it in a sense that normal people would see it.

See, here's the problem with your type. Anything Israel does is automatically criticised, and whilst I disagree with most of the things that happen, I don't try and claim that it is the only form of tyranny occuring there. Sure, what Israel has done isn't exactly helping the situation. But saying what is happening there is "tyrannical" is just ignorant of what else in occuring in the region.

[ExpandMyMind]

If you want a real laugh go and have a look at pallywood, on a more serious note, http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/?p=13228

Why don't you educate yourself?

Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

Israeli soldiers walk free in Gaza human shield case

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=191590&st=0

Palestinian children are not only killed by Israel and used as human shields, but this "bastion of freedom and democracy" in an otherwise backwards land don't even see those who do commit such heinous crimes fit for punishment.

And what of all those who have died due to situations such as:

Water supplied in Gaza unfit for drinking Israel prevents entry of materials needed to repair system

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189353&st=0

How many children do you think have died as a direct result of this ONE policy? Here, from the link: "A UN study published in 2009 estimates that diarrhea is the cause of 12 percent of children's deaths in Gaza.". And that is only diarrhea; what of the other sicknesses that are caused by polluted water? Over 50% of Gaza children are said to be anemic.

More than 70 percent of nine-month-old children in Gaza are anemic

http://www.savethechildren.org/site/c.8rKLIXMGIpI4E/b.6153151/

Then there is the West Bank, whose people do fare slightly better, it has to be said. Although that is hardly surprising, considering WATER is the main reason the Israeli government hold so much of the land there.

Or do you believe the whole World just lie about everything in regards to the crisis those people face?

You have latched onto - by far - the minority of cases in existence where someone has chosen to lie about a killing to gain international support in an otherwise dire situation - and you have chosen to tar an entire people with the same brush. While there have been, in the past, cases where some have decided, in Palestine, to try to bring more exposure to the situation, it is hardly common practice. And to be perfectly honest, it should not even be needed when we look at the people we know have been killed and are being killed, slowly, as we speak.

Just to add to whomever it was who asked me about the Israeli policy of splitting the West Bank and Gaza. The admittance (one of them) was part of the Israeli defence during the Turkel committee that was investigating the barbarous flotilla raid and was widely circulated (and common knowledge to most now, I would have thought) around the net.

IDF document: “policy principle: separating Gaza from West Bank”

An IDF Powerpoint slideshow, presented before the Turkel committee for the investigation of the Israeli raid on the Gaza-bound flotilla, reveals the official goals of the Israeli policy regarding the Gaza strip.

The first set of slides details the background for the current activities of The Administration for the Coordination of Government Policy in the Territories. Slide number 15 details the principles of Israeli policy:

- Responding to the humanitarian needs of the population.

- Upholding civilian and economic limitations on the [Gaza] strip.

- Separating [or differentiating, בידול] Judea and Samaria [i.e. West Bank] from Gaza – a security and diplomatic objective.

- Preserving the Quartet’s conditions on Hamas (Hamas as a terrorist entity).

Slide 20 deals with freedom of movement from and to the Gaza strip. Policy objectives are:

- Limiting people from entering or exiting the strip, in accordance with the government’s decision.

- Separating [differentiating] Judea and Samaria from Gaza.

- Dealing with humanitarian needs.

- Preserving the activity of humanitarian organizations in the strip.

- Keeping a coordinating mechanism with the Palestinian Authority.

The Israeli policy regarding Gaza could be seen as violation of official and unofficial principles of previous agreements and negotiations with the Palestinians and other parties. Gaza and the West Bank were regarded as “one entity” – though not officially declared as such – already in the 1978 peace agreement between Israel and Egypt. The Oslo Declaration of Principles, signed in September 1993 and still an abiding document, specifically states that:

The two sides view the West Bank and the Gaza Strip as a single territorial unit, whose integrity will be preserved during the interim period.

This declaration was ratified in following agreements from 1994 and 1995.

The recent IDF slideshow is the first time an Israeli official document publicly declares that the current policy objective is to create two separate political entities in the Palestinian territories.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189816&st=0&p=3564108&fromsearch=1entry3564108

Edited December 29, 2011 by expandmymind

[Yamato]

Neither is mine. And exactly what tyranny every day? As far as I'm concerned, many Palestinians are living their lives as normal as they can get when you live in a warzone. People get up, go to work, visit family, got to school and nothing happens.

Me? A Zionist? How original.

Also, I don't care what the so-called bureaucrats do the Maori. The latter seem to have this victim mentality and that they are always being mistreated by the government, a bit like your precious Palestinians. Ever since the government starting handing over land worth millions to the local iwi, they've tried to claim everything as their own, from the foreshore and seabed to radio waves. Do you really think I care about the so-called "rights" that Maori supposedly have over everyone else? I can tell you that we aren't the democracy we portray ourseleves to be. Do Arabs enjoy Arab specific seats in the Knesset? No. They get elected to their positions in the Knesset through their skills as a politician. Can't say the same about the Maori.

I see no sources backing up your argument. Not that there would be any, because you're "facts" are non-existant.

The perhaps you could extend a little sympathy towards those who couldn't choose their leaders and have to suffer the consequences when they don't want that leader.

When one claims that they are right, one immediately looses all chances of winning that argument. Listen, do us a favour. Read a dictionary. Look up the definition of "tyranny". Apply it in a sense that normal people would see it.

See, here's the problem with your type. Anything Israel does is automatically criticised, and whilst I disagree with most of the things that happen, I don't try and claim that it is the only form of tyranny occuring there. Sure, what Israel has done isn't exactly helping the situation. But saying what is happening there is "tyrannical" is just ignorant of what else in occuring in the region.

Neither is mine. And exactly what tyranny every day? As far as I'm concerned, many Palestinians are living their lives as normal as they can get when you live in a warzone. People get up, go to work, visit family, got to school and nothing happens.

Neither is yours what? Can you not acknowledge the difference? Again, you don't have your money being forced out of your hands to pay for this human tragedy, so how convenient that you come here with your scathing insults trying to tell me what to do with mine.

What tyranny? I've been discussing the tyranny for nine pages now. As far as you're concerned is less than or equal to as far as you know. If you're not too lazy to read through the thread and address the discussion in front of you, it would avoid you asking such questions that beg needless repetition.

Me? A Zionist? How original.

You've come here defending Zionist Israeli policy. Nothing original about that.

Also, I don't care what the so-called bureaucrats do the Maori. The latter seem to have this victim mentality and that they are always being mistreated by the government, a bit like your precious Palestinians. Ever since the government starting handing over land worth millions to the local iwi, they've tried to claim everything as their own, from the foreshore and seabed to radio waves. Do you really think I care about the so-called "rights" that Maori supposedly have over everyone else? I can tell you that we aren't the democracy we portray ourseleves to be. Do Arabs enjoy Arab specific seats in the Knesset? No. They get elected to their positions in the Knesset through their skills as a politician. Can't say the same about the Maori.

"So-called" bureaucrats? What rights do the Maori have over everyone else? Do I think you care about the Maori? I wouldn't have guessed that you did, no. Maori should have the exact same suit of rights as you do, as the Palestinians should have the exact same rights as I do, as you do, as every Israeli does. It shouldn't be because they're Palestinian, or Arab, or Maori, or not favored by one group of bureaucrats you're more fond of. But for the same reason I can apply a single standard for everyone as I've already explained numerous times throughout this thread.

I see no sources backing up your argument. Not that there would be any, because you're "facts" are non-existant.

What argument are you talking about? You haven't even identified an argument yet, so if you need evidence for something, specify what it is. Rather than continuing to leave a trail of baseless claims about nothing in particular, try identifying what it is you're talking about. Whatever it is, I might not even disagree! If you're denying something I said as incorrect, or thinking that there is no evidence to support something I've said, identify what that is.

The perhaps you could extend a little sympathy towards those who couldn't choose their leaders and have to suffer the consequences when they don't want that leader.

I so sympathize with myself, you have no idea. You aren't as aware of the political issues facing my country as I am and so haven't considered the consequences of our policies.

When one claims that they are right, one immediately looses all chances of winning that argument. Listen, do us a favour. Read a dictionary. Look up the definition of "tyranny". Apply it in a sense that normal people would see it.

When you agreed that I'm right, I'm therefore wrong? So you've changed your mind since your last reply and I'm now wrong that people are distinguished from their government? Again, what argument are you talking about? Don't make me ask you a fifth or sixth time in my next reply. I think you should look up argument in the dictionary.

Tyranny:

1b. similarly oppressive and unjust government by more than one person

2. arbitrary, unreasonable, or despotic behavior or use of authority the teacher's tyranny

3. any harsh discipline or oppression the tyranny of the clock

Syn: police state - a country that maintains repressive control over the people by means of police

Based on the dictionary definition of tyranny, I have no choice but to keep using it because it's the best word available. Please read through the pages of discussion here to catch up on what you've missed. Any denials of substance will be addressed when you are able to indicate whatever it is you're denying.

See, here's the problem with your type. Anything Israel does is automatically criticised, and whilst I disagree with most of the things that happen, I don't try and claim that it is the only form of tyranny occuring there. Sure, what Israel has done isn't exactly helping the situation. But saying what is happening there is "tyrannical" is just ignorant of what else in occuring in the region.

Israel has done quite a bit and the vast majority of what it's done, I haven't criticized yet. So you go too far trying to stretch "my type" to the end of some flimsy branch where I've never gone. But, what is happening on Palestinian land today is probably the worst case of human rights deprivation in the world. Calling it tyranny is over-gentle but suitable for our purposes here because of its precision in describing exactly what the Palestinians are going through.

[ExpandMyMind]

When they've been firing missiles into Israel basically, since they came to power, one can understand why one would feel a little apprehensive that Hamas can stick to a peace agreement.

And so the ever-familiar double standards creep into the discussion once again. I'll say this loud and clear so you can hear: THEY ARE AN OCCUPIED PEOPLE. Of course they were going to continue with their (extremely watered down) resistance. This is what occupied people do! Would you have them throw pillows? Eggs? Maybe water balloons would do the trick?

And, again, during the only time that there has been a true 'truce' Hamas DID stick to the agreement. It was Israel who broke the ceasefire on Nov 4th 2008.

And one doesn't have to look far to understand why the Palestinians, Hamas or otherwise, would be more than slightly concerned with regards to Israel's own objectives regarding a Palestinian State. Take away the fact that, slowly but surely, they have been stealing their land for decades while promoting the pantomime of the cardboard cut-out peace talks, and one only has to look as far as the Charter of those in power in Israel right now. Their own Charter (yes, a real Charter, like the U.N. Charter, not like the supposed "Hamas Charter" that has never been adopted or endorsed in any official capacity since their rise to power):

Likud Charta against Palestinian State

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=207359&st=0&p=3930875&hl=likud&fromsearch=1entry3930875

Their own Charter states hat the Palestinians are not to get their own state, yet these same people are to sit by, hoping, while what's left of their own country becomes slimmer and slimmer - along with their hopes. Yeah, if I were in their situation I fear I would be doing much the same. Appeasement is not for me.

This is because the IDF was (and primarily is) gear towards conventional warfare against its neighbours like Egypt and Syria. But seeing as Assad is content with using his own armed forces against his own people, and Egypt's military government appears to be on its way out, along with various peace treaties, Israel hasn't had any conventional war since the 80's. And even then, they were still facing militias, occaisonally coming up against Syrian troops.

But thanks for stating the obvious. Also, Israel has a very prolific arms industry, so the majority of weapons in use by the IDF have been designed and developed in Israel. Including the latest anti-missile defence system.

I did not state the obvious in the manner you arrogantly assume. I merely pointed out that the reason behind the disparity in deaths in the conflict is not down to Israeli resolve, but down to a gross disparity in weaponry, among other things. I simply corrected an error, so I would appreciate it if you did not reply in the child-like tone that you so often do.

You can claim that Israel build most of their own weapons (they do build some of their own) but when the U.S. sends choppers (as Clinton did during the beginning of the Second Intifada - they must have needed them to fend off all those rocks and bottles), or white phosphorous bombs (as were dropped during the slaughter of Gaza - they were even found by the U.N. with U.S. stamps on them after the carnage, along with other U.S. made bomb shells), or even the planes that drop said bombs( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force#Aircraft ), among many other weapons used to destroy another's infrastructure, it becomes a bit hard to deny just how dependant the Israelis are on U.S. aid and technology.

And, lol, I had to laugh when you mentioned the missile shield defence system. You do realise that it was almost solely, if not completely, based on U.S. technology, do you not? They even had to send U.S. personnel over to build it.

Edited December 29, 2011 by expandmymind

[ExpandMyMind]

They have never been truly attacked by said Palestinians

And I submit that Israel has never truly used it's full capabilities...yet. When the inevitable war comes we may see that change.

A question for you though - and I'll try not to be too silly (it's a character defect I'm working on) : In your mind what would be a truly just and equitable solution to this dilemma?

I think you may have misread my post (possibly due to the way I worded it). I did not state that Israel had not attacked the Palestinians, but the opposite. They have not attacked Israel, not in any true militaristic fashion.

To answer your question, there can be no truly just solution, at least not for the Palestinians. The Zionists stole the Palestinians' land, and it will never be returned. At least not most of it. But, there can be a solution. One that the PLO, Fatah and even Hamas have publicly stated that they would agree upon (Hamas agreed, but only if the people of Gaza and the West Bank agree through referendum). It is quite a well known solution. It is voted on every year at the U.N. where the vote looks something like this:

With practically the entire World voting yes, and the usual suspects voting no. It has been the same since the 70's, with the exception of a few, tiny countries, over the years, now voting in favour of Israel (or the U.S., more likely).

It is peace based on what international law deems. Since WW2 there has been an international law that states it 'inadmissible to acquire land through war' [paraphrased]. This law was brought in after Hitler invaded Poland to gain back the land taken from Germany through the course and end of WW1, so I'm sure all can agree it's a fairly important law. The vote carried out at the U.N. states that Israel regress to their borders pre-'67, as it was quite obviously acquired through the course of a war. After they address the refugee situation (I don't think it crazy to think that they should, seeing as what happened to the Palestinians, so far as being forced from their homes, did happen to many of the Israelis back in Germany - Israelis who have received reparations from Germany, some still to this day. And the U.N. and World has been calling for the problem to be rightly addressed by Israel since 1947), through, most likely, monetary means, then both sides of he conflict would be free to live out their lives.

If, after such a thing was to happen, the Palestinians continued with attacks, then I would be debating 'the other side' of this conflict.

Peace can happen, but Israel does not want to give back the land it has taken. As long as that stays true - and short of genocide from one side or the other - there never will be peace.

Edited December 29, 2011 by expandmymind

[Yamato]

Based on the ignorant responses on this thread from posters who simultaneously (disingenuously) ask for and reject evidence, it may well be a revelation for a few of us to learn that oppressive occupation by a foreign government is one of the most acute examples of tyranny there is. What is occupation like? You don't have to be a non-Jewish Arab-national or a Palestinian citizen to get a taste of the dirty work of Zionism, just be an international citizen from wherever and (try to) go there.

I've seen this pattern on this thread a hundred times before. It's the same stale Zionist tactic trying to stall a discussion with Statist mindsets that can't see the reality through the bureau, group-think mentalities that seek to divide people into groups in order to deal with them, blind denials that can't handle the evidence but pretend to ask for it and not get it, and a serial hypocrisy that's propped up on double standards. But, such feigned disagreement for the sake of disagreeing serves mainly to bump the thread and keep the conversation going and so for that, I thank you.

Who could expect any American to tolerate the constant threat of home demolition because the government, or worse, a foreign government, could find a better use for our own property than we can? What kind of amoral cowardice is this to come here and expect submission to tyranny as if that's where peace comes from? These goons in their bulldozers would be eating .30-06 lead and 12-gauge buckshot every day if our government dared try this kind of policy out on us. America would serve its government a Constitution sandwich the day its government thought it could run all over our civil liberties like that. It's always easier to excuse it away when it's hidden from view and it's someone else's problem, just like it's always easier when it's someone else's money that's being spent.

[MichaelW]

And so the ever-familiar double standards creep into the discussion once again. I'll say this loud and clear so you can hear: THEY ARE AN OCCUPIED PEOPLE. Of course they were going to continue with their (extremely watered down) resistance. This is what occupied people do! Would you have them throw pillows? Eggs? Maybe water balloons would do the trick?

It would certainly be entertaining, to say the least. But this is the Middle East, even the most deprived people can find an AK-47.

And, again, during the only time that there has been a true 'truce' Hamas DID stick to the agreement. It was Israel who broke the ceasefire on Nov 4th 2008.

And one doesn't have to look far to understand why the Palestinians, Hamas or otherwise, would be more than slightly concerned with regards to Israel's own objectives regarding a Palestinian State. Take away the fact that, slowly but surely, they have been stealing their land for decades while promoting the pantomime of the cardboard cut-out peace talks, and one only has to look as far as the Charter of those in power in Israel right now. Their own Charter (yes, a real Charter, like the U.N. Charter, not like the supposed "Hamas Charter" that has never been adopted or endorsed in any official capacity since their rise to power):

Likud Charta against Palestinian State

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=207359&st=0&p=3930875&hl=likud&fromsearch=1entry3930875

Their own Charter states hat the Palestinians are not to get their own state, yet these same people are to sit by, hoping, while what's left of their own country becomes slimmer and slimmer - along with their hopes. Yeah, if I were in their situation I fear I would be doing much the same. Appeasement is not for me.

Hamas' charter called for the destruction of Israel. As you seem to have pointed out already, policies change. Hamas wants peace and Netanyahu says he is prepared to go back to the '67 borders. We're now waiting on Abbas, who, presumably, is trying to lengthen his presidential term by another few years.

I did not state the obvious in the manner you arrogantly assume. I merely pointed out that the reason behind the disparity in deaths in the conflict is not down to Israeli resolve, but down to a gross disparity in weaponry, among other things. I simply corrected an error, so I would appreciate it if you did not reply in the child-like tone that you so often do.

You're not in a position to lecture me on arrogance. And if you make a stupid statement, someone's going to pick up on it.

Anyway, the fact that Israel has superior weaponry does not mean it is the sole reason. There are many factors. A superior warning system in Israel, better security and a better healthcare system have all contributed to a drop in deaths and injuries associated with attacks.

You can claim that Israel build most of their own weapons (they do build some of their own) but when the U.S. sends choppers (as Clinton did during the beginning of the Second Intifada - they must have needed them to fend off all those rocks and bottles), or white phosphorous bombs (as were dropped during the slaughter of Gaza - they were even found by the U.N. with U.S. stamps on them after the carnage, along with other U.S. made bomb shells), or even the planes that drop said bombs( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_Air_Force#Aircraft ), among many other weapons used to destroy another's infrastructure, it becomes a bit hard to deny just how dependant the Israelis are on U.S. aid and technology.

Israel is a net exporter of weapons. Of course, Israel has to get its ammunition from somewhere so I can't disagree with you there. However, you forget that Israel has moved away from its dependence on the Americans for weapons.

And, lol, I had to laugh when you mentioned the missile shield defence system. You do realise that it was almost solely, if not completely, based on U.S. technology, do you not? They even had to send U.S. personnel over to build it.

Laugh all you want, but you were referring to the Patriot System, which is indeed American. Good on you to pick that up. However, I'm talking about the Iron Dome which is designed and built in Israel. From the article:

Iron Dome has three central components:

• Detection & Tracking Radar: the radar system is built by Elta, an Israeli defense company
  
• Battle Management & Weapon Control (BMC): the control center is built by mPrest Systems, an Israeli software company, for Rafael
  
• Missile Firing Unit: the unit launches the Tamir interceptor missile, equipped with electro-optic sensors and several steering fins for high maneuverability. The missile is built by Rafael.

I took the liberty of bolding the above points for your benefit, seeing as your knowelegde of military equipment isn't your strong suit. Would you like to elaborate on how this system works?

[Yamato]

It would certainly be entertaining, to say the least. But this is the Middle East, even the most deprived people can find an AK-47.

Hamas' charter called for the destruction of Israel. As you seem to have pointed out already, policies change. Hamas wants peace and Netanyahu says he is prepared to go back to the '67 borders. We're now waiting on Abbas, who, presumably, is trying to lengthen his presidential term by another few years.

You're not in a position to lecture me on arrogance. And if you make a stupid statement, someone's going to pick up on it.

Anyway, the fact that Israel has superior weaponry does not mean it is the sole reason. There are many factors. A superior warning system in Israel, better security and a better healthcare system have all contributed to a drop in deaths and injuries associated with attacks.

Israel is a net exporter of weapons. Of course, Israel has to get its ammunition from somewhere so I can't disagree with you there. However, you forget that Israel has moved away from its dependence on the Americans for weapons.

Laugh all you want, but you were referring to the Patriot System, which is indeed American. Good on you to pick that up. However, I'm talking about the Iron Dome which is designed and built in Israel. From the article:

I took the liberty of bolding the above points for your benefit, seeing as your knowelegde of military equipment isn't your strong suit. Would you like to elaborate on how this system works?

I think you've made the case quite nicely that Israel is the last place on Earth to need military aid, so thank you. Where you heard that Israel is a net exporter of weapons I'd like to see, because that's news to me.

While you're prattling on about Hamas and assorted bureaucratic junk inked on paper, should the Palestinians of Gaza bend over and kiss Israel longtime to get the same kind of "deal" that the West Bank got under Fatah? Is that what peace looks like to you? To see your property get demolished, to see your land get eaten away by criminals who preach of "peace" and chew up property that doesn't belong to them like maggots on a corpse? You're sad mistaken. I hope that New Zealand has real men in it to defend your country from foreign invasion like that, so my country of astronomically superior capability to yours doesn't have to come down there again and save you people. No wonder the Japanese can travel 7,000 miles away from their homeland and violate Antarctic waters while your well-fed bureaucrats sit on their hands and give nothing in return but impotent lip service.

Buy/build your own weapons. I think that's another single standard you've stepped in that's good enough for everyone.

[ExpandMyMind]

Hamas' charter called for the destruction of Israel. As you seem to have pointed out already, policies change. Hamas wants peace and Netanyahu says he is prepared to go back to the '67 borders. We're now waiting on Abbas, who, presumably, is trying to lengthen his presidential term by another few years.

Eh, considering the monstrous onslaught Obama received when he stated that Israel should revert to mutually agreed upon borders, merely based on a mutually negotiated version of the '67 borders, I think you seem to have been confused somewhere.

Netanyahu tells Obama: Israel cannot go back to the 1967 borders

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/netanyahu-tells-obama-israel-cannot-go-back-to-the-1967-borders-1.363075

Netanyahu will never agree on the '67 borders. As I have stated it is part of his party's official charter. And, after all, he is a right wing nut-job, one only has to look at some of his quotes to quickly realise this.

You're not in a position to lecture me on arrogance.

Actually, considering you were being arrogant, while I was not, I think that puts me in the perfect position to "lecture" you on arrogance.

And if you make a stupid statement, someone's going to pick up on it.

You are obviously not grasping the meaning of my statement. First, it was true, every word, so by definition it can't be stupid. Second, it was not, as you continue to assert, merely stated for he sake of stating it - it was a direct reply, correcting another's opinion. Therefore, it was a constructive statement, by definition.

I'm not sure what it is you think you have picked up on...

Anyway, the fact that Israel has superior weaponry does not mean it is the sole reason. There are many factors. A superior warning system in Israel, better security and a better healthcare system have all contributed to a drop in deaths and injuries associated with attacks.

Again you have jumped the gun. You may want to look at what I wrote.

I merely pointed out that the reason behind the disparity in deaths in the conflict is not down to Israeli resolve, but down to a gross disparity in weaponry, among other things.

Note the bold.

Israel is a net exporter of weapons. Of course, Israel has to get its ammunition from somewhere so I can't disagree with you there. However, you forget that Israel has moved away from its dependence on the Americans for weapons.

Regardless of whether or not they have decided to move away from American made weapons (let us forget the American choppers and planes, just for a second), the military aid that is provided to Israel by the U.S. is dependant on their buying U.S. made equipment. They have to buy from the U.S.. As far as they try to move away from 'dependence', this fact can not be escaped.

So the fact remains: Israel would not be able to suppress the indigenous people of the land in quite the same manner without the help of the U.S., via ammunition, aid and weapons.

Laugh all you want, but you were referring to the Patriot System, which is indeed American. Good on you to pick that up. However, I'm talking about the Iron Dome which is designed and built in Israel. From the article:

Fair enough. But like I stated above, deny all you may, Israel depends on the U.S. and would not be able to operate in the manner it does without that country. Even if they did have the ability to build the planes and choppers and bombs, they could no afford to do so.

Edited December 29, 2011 by expandmymind

[MichaelW]

I think you've made the case quite nicely that Israel is the last place on Earth to need military aid, so thank you. Where you heard that Israel is a net exporter of weapons I'd like to see, because that's news to me.

It's well known that Israel exports weapons globally. Their weapons systems are in service in many countries around the world: from Kazakhstan to Colombia.

While you're prattling on about Hamas and assorted bureaucratic junk inked on paper, should the Palestinians of Gaza bend over and kiss Israel longtime to get the same kind of "deal" that the West Bank got under Fatah? Is that what peace looks like to you? To see your property get demolished, to see your land get eaten away by criminals who preach of "peace" and chew up property that doesn't belong to them like maggots on a corpse? You're sad mistaken.

I'd think they'd be lucky to get any kind of peace deal. When your leaders include corrupt bureaucrats who spend more time lengthening the time they spend in office than they do coming up with any kind of peace treaties, you'd think they'd jump at the chance to get something sorted.

I hope that New Zealand has real men in it to defend your country from foreign invasion like that, so my country of astronomically superior capability to yours doesn't have to come down there again and save you people. No wonder the Japanese can travel 7,000 miles away from their homeland and violate Antarctic waters while your well-fed bureaucrats sit on their hands and give nothing in return but impotent lip service.

Who would want to invade us? You silly Americans don't realise that we have no natural enemies. We don't go around creating wars for no apparent reason and we a very prolific in donating aid to the Pacific Island nations. And even if we did, our armed forces are far more professional than the idiots you guys call "soldiers". Sure, we have nowhere near the capabilities, but as far as we're concerned, we're fine. I'm glad our government told you guys to bugger off in the 80's with arrogance like that.

Besides, the Japanese are in international waters. And we're not getting involved so that a bunch of dissaffected communists and an egomaniac with a beard can feel important about himself.

[MichaelW]

Eh, considering the monstrous onslaught Obama received when he stated that Israel should revert to mutually agreed upon borders, merely based on a mutually negotiated version of the '67 borders, I think you seem to have been confused somewhere.

Netanyahu tells Obama: Israel cannot go back to the 1967 borders

http://www.haaretz.com/news/international/netanyahu-tells-obama-israel-cannot-go-back-to-the-1967-borders-1.363075

Netanyahu will never agree on the '67 borders. As I have stated it is part of his party's official charter. And, after all, he is a right wing nut-job, one only has to look at some of his quotes to quickly realise this.

Explain this then. It appears that he does agree.

Actually, considering you were being arrogant, while I was not, I think that puts me in the perfect position to "lecture" you on arrogance.

No, past experiences with you have shown that you aren't in such a position.

Regardless of whether or not they have decided to move away from American made weapons (let us forget the American choppers and planes, just for a second), the military aid that is provided to Israel by the U.S. is dependant on their buying U.S. made equipment. They have to buy from the U.S.. As far as they try to move away from 'dependence', this fact can not be escaped.

So the fact remains: Israel would not be able to suppress the indigenous people of the land in quite the same manner without the help of the U.S., via ammunition, aid and weapons.

Had the US not given into the demands of the Jewish community in 1973, Israel would have still maintained a competent military to counter and respond to any attack by any Palestinian faction. Israel managed in 1948, 1956 and 1967 without military aid from the United States. The Israelis had British and French military equipment for years before the United States helped them out in 1973.

Fair enough. But like I stated above, deny all you may, Israel depends on the U.S. and would not be able to operate in the manner it does without that country. Even if they did have the ability to build the planes and choppers and bombs, they could no afford to do so.

They do build planes and missiles without American help. I'm guessing you've never heard of Israel Aerospace Industries, have you? They have made such famous aircraft as the Kfir fighter jet as well as UAV's and even numerous civilian aircraft. They even produce business jets for Gulfstream. Military jets such as the Kfir have been in active IAF service and were exported to Colombia, Ecuaador and Sri Lanka.

[+and-then]

I see we are at impasse since our opinions are unchangeable and opposite. Good discussion though and thank you. I'm one of those who believes that even though the Israeli's are heavy handed and unjust in their actions at times - which government isn't - I believe that the land is theirs. I also believe that even if the US abstained or even voted to condemn it would do nothing except make Israel more hardline on the issue. I see no solution. I see a continuation of the fruit of hatred from both sides and many more deaths.

What I don't understand is how people can look at the situation as it is and demand that Israel try to survive surrounded by PROVEN MORTAL enemies on '47 borders. Those same enemies who tried to eradicate the state in '47....... I think there is enough hatred for Israel that most countries would just be willing to look the other way if another genocide was occurring. Generally speaking, if a wounded animal is cornered, that's when it's the most dangerous. Other nations lose a war, regroup, rearm and maybe try again. Israel loses a war and their enemies would kill them all. So it seems to be a game of chance, will they or won't they use nukes if backed into a corner. I believe they would and I would not blame them for it.

[Yamato]

It's well known that Israel exports weapons globally. Their weapons systems are in service in many countries around the world: from Kazakhstan to Colombia.

Based on that, you're guessing that Israel is a net exporter of weapons?

I'd think they'd be lucky to get any kind of peace deal. When your leaders include corrupt bureaucrats who spend more time lengthening the time they spend in office than they do coming up with any kind of peace treaties, you'd think they'd jump at the chance to get something sorted.

I'd think one would have to be a yellow bellied coward to submit to the crime you call a "peace treaty". I wonder how you'd act if someone broke into your house and decided to help themselves to your property. Maybe you could get something sorted and make some "peace" by shortening the time it takes your possessions to fly out your door. Your standards are so weak you're lucky to stand on the shoulders of giants in your country who keep you safe up there on your tall perch.

Who would want to invade us? You silly Americans don't realise that we have no natural enemies. We don't go around creating wars for no apparent reason and we a very prolific in donating aid to the Pacific Island nations. And even if we did, our armed forces are far more professional than the idiots you guys call "soldiers". Sure, we have nowhere near the capabilities, but as far as we're concerned, we're fine. I'm glad our government told you guys to bugger off in the 80's with arrogance like that.

LOL well well well. An admission is a sign of strength not a confession of weakness. The USN's Pacific fleet could conquer your entire country in a matter of days. It wouldn't even be worth cheering about. Like fish in a barrel. And if your military shares in your love of submission to hostile occupation, maybe they'd push some pencils and say some words about it like they did in the '80s. I'm sure that'll hurry up the process of subduing your ingrown guerrillas errr...your terrorists. But while we're the superpower who's going around the world creating wars for no apparent reason (for Israel) that you love so much, you're now snickering about that too with the first bit of provocation. Now you're against yourself and you don't even know it.

What about all those Mooooozlims up there in Indonesia? They don't hate you for your freedom? By goading you into claiming that you have no natural enemies who would want to attack you, that's the greatest admission I've heard yet that foreign policy is what matters - it's the policy that counts because the silly Americans create the "natural enemies" that must be foolishly dealt with for the security of "friends" like Israel. You should thank your taxable paycheck that you don't have to pay for my friends. But you've got a lot of words to say about it and lucky for you, words are cheap.

Besides, the Japanese are in international waters. And we're not getting involved so that a bunch of dissaffected communists and an egomaniac with a beard can feel important about himself.

So the private not-for profit organization of conservatives that balances their budget and pays their bills every year are called "communists" and the government-subsidized poachers who take in millions of dollars in taxpayer subsidies every year to hunt endangered species are in international waters, so you have no right to stop them. Yet another hypocritical double standard for your love child Israel who seems to be able to attack all kinds of countries in international waters with no consequences to speak of. You know what happens to elephant poachers in Asia and Africa? They get a bullet through their heads. You should feel lucky that the criminal whalers you just stepped into defending aren't treated as harshly by an egomaniac with a beard.

Edit: Imagine the "communist" Admiral Paul Watson, out in international waters, swooping in on the hapless Japanese whalers from his helicopters and zodiacs shooting them in the back like those brave criminals of Israel:

http://www.thenational.ae/thenational/news/world/middle-east/un-report-says-israeli-raid-on-aid-flotilla-was-illegal

I'm starting to get the idea that violent crime is what you respect, because it sure isn't liberty or private property or the rule of law. Do you live out your special interests or is it just for words typed on keyboards in anonymous message boards?

Edited December 29, 2011 by Yamato

[Uncle Sam]

Again, unfortunately for your disturbing defense of a yet-baseless and still racist comment, there were no suicide bombers for Golda Meir to speak of so please find something else to justify her nasty remark that you like so much.

You've got over 800,000 children in a total population of 1.5 million in Gaza, making Israel's international crimes even more appalling than I've already established. How old does someone have to be before they're endowed with the right to fight back against their oppressors? I'm not condoning the tactic, I'm only asking because you keep bringing up the age of 14, as if that makes the difference. As if, a 28-year old suicide bomber acceptable to you?

No suicidal bomber is acceptable, because it brings death and destruction to the very person you are supposely trying to protect. Wow... anybody with a brain can figure out, a bomb doesn't discrimiate, it destroys everything in its path regardless who is there or not.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Uncle Sam

[hetrodoxly]

Why don't you educate yourself?

Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

http://www.guardian..../nov/16/israel2

Israeli soldiers walk free in Gaza human shield case

http://www.unexplain...pic=191590&st=0

Palestinian children are not only killed by Israel and used as human shields, but this "bastion of freedom and democracy" in an otherwise backwards land don't even see those who do commit such heinous crimes fit for punishment.

And what of all those who have died due to situations such as:

Water supplied in Gaza unfit for drinking Israel prevents entry of materials needed to repair system

http://www.unexplain...pic=189353&st=0

How many children do you think have died as a direct result of this ONE policy? Here, from the link: "A UN study published in 2009 estimates that diarrhea is the cause of 12 percent of children's deaths in Gaza.". And that is only diarrhea; what of the other sicknesses that are caused by polluted water? Over 50% of Gaza children are said to be anemic.

More than 70 percent of nine-month-old children in Gaza are anemic

http://www.savethech...pI4E/b.6153151/

Then there is the West Bank, whose people do fare slightly better, it has to be said. Although that is hardly surprising, considering WATER is the main reason the Israeli government hold so much of the land there.

Or do you believe the whole World just lie about everything in regards to the crisis those people face?

You have latched onto - by far - the minority of cases in existence where someone has chosen to lie about a killing to gain international support in an otherwise dire situation - and you have chosen to tar an entire people with the same brush. While there have been, in the past, cases where some have decided, in Palestine, to try to bring more exposure to the situation, it is hardly common practice. And to be perfectly honest, it should not even be needed when we look at the people we know have been killed and are being killed, slowly, as we speak.

Just to add to whomever it was who asked me about the Israeli policy of splitting the West Bank and Gaza. The admittance (one of them) was part of the Israeli defence during the Turkel committee that was investigating the barbarous flotilla raid and was widely circulated (and common knowledge to most now, I would have thought) around the net.

IDF document: “policy principle: separating Gaza from West Bank”

http://www.unexplain...1

Anyone convicted of war crimes or any other type should feel the full force of the law,ok.

Palestine (pallywood) is the propaganda capitol of the world where are all the videos of starving malnourished children? all i see on news reports are very healthy looking well dressed (latest fashion) people.

Educate yourself, here's the real shortage.

[Yamato]

No suicidal bomber is acceptable, because it brings death and destruction to the very person you are supposely trying to protect. Wow... anybody with a brain can figure out, a bomb doesn't discrimiate, it destroys everything in its path regardless who is there or not.

Tell the Obama administration this immediately! Their brains must be missing.

Here we go again neglecting the bureaucracy and their brainless violations of our greater wisdom.

And to my point, you're right, so why bring age into it? We're all somebody's child at any age. Why bring suicide into it? Anyone can figure out that a pale-skinned homicide bomber's bomb doesn't discriminate and kills the same people, sans the bomber's of course, and is that really what makes the difference? Where was I justifying bombs at on this thread? I'm the guy in the room that's NOT doing that, under any pretext. Agreeing with me with responses to me and not somebody else are nice but don't push the discussion forward.

There hasn't been a suicide bomber in years. The West Bank is still being chewed up. Liberty is still being denied daily. Think harder for a solution please because that ain't it. It's just a lame excuse that discriminates between this bomb here and that bomb over there. Which doesn't sit well with what you just said at all (eg. having a brain).

[Yamato]

Anyone convicted of war crimes or any other type should feel the full force of the law,ok.

Palestine (pallywood) is the propaganda capitol of the world where are all the videos of starving malnourished children? all i see on news reports are very healthy looking well dressed (latest fashion) people.

Educate yourself, here's the real shortage.

Cars. "A rarity in Gaza." "Only 200 SMUGGLED in."

Nice job pointing out the "reality". This barbaric siege must end.

[MichaelW]

Based on that, you're guessing that Israel is a net exporter of weapons?

Seeing as Israel is the world's tenth largest arms exporter, then yes, I would say Israel is a net exporter of weapons.

I'd think one would have to be a yellow bellied coward to submit to the crime you call a "peace treaty". I wonder how you'd act if someone broke into your house and decided to help themselves to your property. Maybe you could get something sorted and make some "peace" by shortening the time it takes your possessions to fly out your door. Your standards are so weak you're lucky to stand on the shoulders of giants in your country who keep you safe up there on your tall perch.

A nice strawman you got there. Can I set it on fire? I can? Good. Now I'm not condoning the actions of the settlers but if these two states keep coming to the table unprepared to make sacrifices, peace will not be achieved. Therefore I think it would be necessary for both sides to make concessions that they deep down do not want.

LOL well well well. An admission is a sign of strength not a confession of weakness. The USN's Pacific fleet could conquer your entire country in a matter of days. It wouldn't even be worth cheering about. Like fish in a barrel. And if your military shares in your love of submission to hostile occupation, maybe they'd push some pencils and say some words about it like they did in the '80s. I'm sure that'll hurry up the process of subduing your ingrown guerrillas errr...your terrorists. But while we're the superpower who's going around the world creating wars for no apparent reason (for Israel) that you love so much, you're now snickering about that too with the first bit of provocation. Now you're against yourself and you don't even know it.

Laugh all you want, but seeing as American vessels are banned from New Zealand ports, and all you guys did was b**** a little, I'd call that a success. I mean you guys let a small nation push you around. Isn't that a little embarassing for the world's "premier" power? Also, we, and the Australians, successfully took the French to the World Court and had them abandon their nuclear program in the Pacific.

What about all those Mooooozlims up there in Indonesia? They don't hate you for your freedom? By goading you into claiming that you have no natural enemies who would want to attack you, that's the greatest admission I've heard yet that foreign policy is what matters - it's the policy that counts because the silly Americans create the "natural enemies" that must be foolishly dealt with for the security of "friends" like Israel. You should thank your taxable paycheck that you don't have to pay for my friends. But you've got a lot of words to say about it and lucky for you, words are cheap.

Firstly, the Indonesians have no force projection whatsoever. Secondly, they'd have to get past Australia. And thirdly, why would they bother attacking us? We've got nothing they want. Why would they want to attack us? Isn't that like saying we should be prepared for an invasion by Samoa?

I'm starting to get the idea that violent crime is what you respect, because it sure isn't liberty or private property or the rule of law. Do you live out your special interests or is it just for words typed on keyboards in anonymous message boards?

Do you like living inside you're own ****? Because I'm starting to get the idea that you do. Listen, mate, I don't have time for this unrivalled tripe you call an "argument". Come back when you've pulled your head out and prepared to make a proper argument, with facts, and not unbridled opinion. Because this "holier-than-thou" attitude isn't making up for your lack of an argument.

[Yamato]

Seeing as Israel is the world's tenth largest arms exporter, then yes, I would say Israel is a net exporter of weapons.

Israel is also the most militarized nation on earth, so I wouldn't.

A nice strawman you got there. Can I set it on fire? I can? Good. Now I'm not condoning the actions of the settlers but if these two states keep coming to the table unprepared to make sacrifices, peace will not be achieved. Therefore I think it would be necessary for both sides to make concessions that they deep down do not want.

It's not a strawman it's a mirror. It's applying your sad lack of respect for the private property of others to your own private property. And as always, my questions go unanswered because you can't handle my questions. You can't handle being exposed for your serial hypocrisy. I'm not talking about the actions of settlers, I'm talking about the actions of the Israeli government. I'm the one here that's broached the detailed topic of concessions and sacrifices that are yet unmade. You're now paying lip service to such details for the first time but haven't bothered spelling a single one out.

Laugh all you want, but seeing as American vessels are banned from New Zealand ports, and all you guys did was b**** a little, I'd call that a success. I mean you guys let a small nation push you around. Isn't that a little embarassing for the world's "premier" power? Also, we, and the Australians, successfully took the French to the World Court and had them abandon their nuclear program in the Pacific.

When the Japanese are marching on Port Moresby again you'll forget all about your new-found anti-American bravado when we're saving the Pacific once again so you can exist here with your bureaucrats and snip at me with your rife double standards. Maybe they weren't within 12 miles away yet so just let "us guys" handle it for you. So in your latest flip flop, now you're an environmentalist because the bureau said it was okay. I have to question whether you're capable of respecting anything that doesn't come down from the government. Every good idea that I've raised up from the people has been met by ignorance from you at best and insults at worst. And why put premier in quotes? If the US isn't premier, who is?

Firstly, the Indonesians have no force projection whatsoever. Secondly, they'd have to get past Australia. And thirdly, why would they bother attacking us? We've got nothing they want. Why would they want to attack us? Isn't that like saying we should be prepared for an invasion by Samoa?

Why would what? Force projection? Again, they don't hate you for your freedom? There are no Muslims in New Zealand? In Australia? The Indonesians can't share their religion with sermons and books? Did I say anything about them "attacking" you? I didn't even think that; you went there all by yourself. Is violent or criminal force control all you understand? That kind of mental block is not going to serve you well when you live in a country as weak as New Zealand. How convenient it must be for your endless train of double standards that it isn't your country who is as you said, creating wars for no apparent reason.

Do you like living inside you're own ****? Because I'm starting to get the idea that you do. Listen, mate, I don't have time for this unrivalled tripe you call an "argument". Come back when you've pulled your head out and prepared to make a proper argument, with facts, and not unbridled opinion. Because this "holier-than-thou" attitude isn't making up for your lack of an argument.

What "argument"? I haven't called this an argument. Don't put your words in my mouth. You don't have an argument. What you have are statements of double standard because you don't have a principle anywhere in sight that you're able to apply to everyone. I'm not holier than anyone which is precisely why I'm the one who has standards that don't treat this group of people one way and that group of people another way. You can't handle my principles and that's why you're running out of time here.

Vainly attempting to apply a single standard to anything you've clumsily stepped into defending here, I bet if the US sent its non-nuclear warships into New Zealand's waters to violently prevent you from fishing, you'd respect that. It's violence by the state after all (time to bend over).

Edited December 29, 2011 by Yamato

[MichaelW]

Israel is also the most militarized nation on earth, so I wouldn't.

This shows that you have absolutely no military knowledge whatsoever. If Israel didn't have such a large military idustry (in comparison with its size and population), then of course it wouldn't be an exporter of arms. But seeing as it does, it is.

It's not a strawman it's a mirror. It's applying your sad lack of respect for the private property of others to your own private property. And as always, my questions go unanswered because you can't handle my questions. You can't handle being exposed for your serial hypocrisy. I'm not talking about the actions of settlers, I'm talking about the actions of the Israeli government. I'm the one here that's broached the detailed topic of concessions and sacrifices that are yet unmade. You're now paying lip service to such details for the first time but haven't bothered spelling a single one out.

It is a strawman. And what exactly has the Israel government done to "steal" the property of Palestinians? Haven't the settlers done that? Stolen land? I think you're a little confused about who's doing what.

When the Japanese are marching on Port Moresby again you'll forget all about your new-found anti-American bravado when we're saving the Pacific once again so you can exist here with your bureaucrats and snip at me with your rife double standards. Maybe they weren't within 12 miles away yet so just let "us guys" handle it for you. So in your latest flip flop, now you're an environmentalist because the bureau said it was okay. I have to question whether you're capable of respecting anything that doesn't come down from the government. Every good idea that I've raised up from the people has been met by ignorance from you at best and insults at worst. And why put premier in quotes? If the US isn't premier, who is?

I'm an environmentalist now? I was just stating what the government had done and somehow now I'm an environmentalist? What the hell have you been smoking? All

I said was we banned American ships from entering our ports and you did little to stop it. How the hell does that make me an environmentalist?

Why would what? Force projection? Again, they don't hate you for your freedom? There are no Muslims in New Zealand? In Australia? The Indonesians can't share their religion with sermons and books? Did I say anything about them "attacking" you? I didn't even think that; you went there all by yourself. Is violent or criminal force control all you understand? That kind of mental block is not going to serve you well when you live in a country as weak as New Zealand. How convenient it must be for your endless train of double standards that it isn't your country who is as you said, creating wars for no apparent reason.

There are Muslims in New Zealand. And I don't have any kind of mental block. If there's anyone here with anything mental going on, it's you. Also, Indonesia at one stage, was vying for power in the Asia-Pacific region. So anything's possible with them.

Also, have you any clue what "force projection" is? You're the one apparently going on about it.

What "argument"? I haven't called this an argument. Don't put your words in my mouth. You don't have an argument. What you have are statements of double standard because you don't have a principle anywhere in sight that you're able to apply to everyone. I'm not holier than anyone which is precisely why I'm the one who has standards that don't treat this group of people one way and that group of people another way. You can't handle my principles and that's why you're running out of time here.

Well, as far as anyone is concerned, you haven't exactly dismissed anything more than label me all kinds of things which I'm not. Are you trying to get me banned? Because I disagree with you? I can't "handle your principles"? LOL! The only thing I can't handle from you is your BS. Which this is. You can sit there and pretend that you are somehow morally superior or something and that is your perogative. I'm not going to stop you from that. But seeing as I don't subscribe to your version of arrogance and faux morality, you don't have the right to try to force your own opinions on me.

Vainly attempting to apply a single standard to anything you've clumsily stepped into defending here, I bet if the US sent its non-nuclear warships into New Zealand's waters to violently prevent you from fishing, you'd respect that. It's violence by the state after all (time to bend over).

I think we both know that you're grasping a straws with this one. I don't respect the US or most Americans (especially you) at all. So why you'd think that I'd respect something the Americans had done is beyond me.

[Uncle Sam]

This shows that you have absolutely no military knowledge whatsoever. If Israel didn't have such a large military idustry (in comparison with its size and population), then of course it wouldn't be an exporter of arms. But seeing as it does, it is.

It is a strawman. And what exactly has the Israel government done to "steal" the property of Palestinians? Haven't the settlers done that? Stolen land? I think you're a little confused about who's doing what.

I'm an environmentalist now? I was just stating what the government had done and somehow now I'm an environmentalist? What the hell have you been smoking? All

I said was we banned American ships from entering our ports and you did little to stop it. How the hell does that make me an environmentalist?

There are Muslims in New Zealand. And I don't have any kind of mental block. If there's anyone here with anything mental going on, it's you. Also, Indonesia at one stage, was vying for power in the Asia-Pacific region. So anything's possible with them.

Also, have you any clue what "force projection" is? You're the one apparently going on about it.

Well, as far as anyone is concerned, you haven't exactly dismissed anything more than label me all kinds of things which I'm not. Are you trying to get me banned? Because I disagree with you? I can't "handle your principles"? LOL! The only thing I can't handle from you is your BS. Which this is. You can sit there and pretend that you are somehow morally superior or something and that is your perogative. I'm not going to stop you from that. But seeing as I don't subscribe to your version of arrogance and faux morality, you don't have the right to try to force your own opinions on me.

I think we both know that you're grasping a straws with this one. I don't respect the US or most Americans (especially you) at all. So why you'd think that I'd respect something the Americans had done is beyond me.

Way to break down his arguement, pick him apart on that. As for the don't respect U.S. or most Americans, most people in the world mutually hate each other regardless of good or bad deeds done in generations. By the way, Yamato is definitely not American...

Edited December 30, 2011 by Uncle Sam