Who are Palestinians?

[Yamato]

This shows that you have absolutely no military knowledge whatsoever. If Israel didn't have such a large military idustry (in comparison with its size and population), then of course it wouldn't be an exporter of arms. But seeing as it does, it is.

If you're right it's yet another example of the nation that's supposedly wanting "peace" being the same nation that happens to be proliferating weapons all around the globe. But, because Israel is so heavy-handed in its foreign and domestic policies, because it's so reliant on weapons and force to solve its problems, and because it's basically a gigantic military base for what the government claims are my "national interests", and because you don't have any numbers but only notice they're bigtime proliferators, I'm sorry I have to reject your claim as likely being false.

It is a strawman. And what exactly has the Israel government done to "steal" the property of Palestinians? Haven't the settlers done that? Stolen land? I think you're a little confused about who's doing what.

You don't have a chance of explaining how that's a strawman. Just keep thinking that baseless claims are going to work eventually and that I won't ask you to explain yourself. I have little expectation you'll try to explain, but there's no limit to how many questions I'll ask you, and the ones that you can't answer are the most rewarding of all. No matter how poor your questions get, I will answer yours as if there is no such thing as bad questions, because my greatest wish is to continue this discussion with as many people for as long as possible. I've already been blessed to meet highly intelligent people here who are more than capable of progressing the discussion in a productive way, and I hope this thread stays open and inclusive for any new posters who haven't participated yet.

Now onto your question. What, exactly, has the Israeli government done to "steal" the property of Palestinians? They bodily evicted them from their property, they destroy Palestinian property, they confiscate it by force, they exploit it and consume it for themselves, they're colonizing it, building settlements on it, roads through it, checkpoints on it, stealing resources from it, stationing military forces on it, building bunkers, watchtowers, fences, walls, and cages through it and violently throwing down anyone who interferes with their perpetual criminal and internationally condemned theft. They're thieves. And that's just Palestinian property which is only one civil liberty out of many I'm not even addressing here. That you didn't even know this makes me question whether you know anything about Palestinian land and it makes me question who I've been talking to and why. Did you at least watch and read through the discussion on this thread yet? Please, take an hour or two to do so and it might broaden the discussion and refine its relevance.

I'm an environmentalist now? I was just stating what the government had done and somehow now I'm an environmentalist? What the hell have you been smoking? All

I said was we banned American ships from entering our ports and you did little to stop it. How the hell does that make me an environmentalist?

The facts are not contained by all you said. The Act that you're referring to banned nuclear powered ships and nuclear materials from your ports. You're bragging about what your government did, the motivation for so doing was over environmental hazards that were causing cancer and other illnesses from nuclear radiation and nuclear waste. The Act that you're referring to bans the dumping of radioactive waste in New Zealand's waters. Now what? You don't support the Act for the reason it exists, you just wanted to throw darts at me? Or is it that you don't care why the government did what it did, because whatever it does is sacrosanct?

There are Muslims in New Zealand. And I don't have any kind of mental block. If there's anyone here with anything mental going on, it's you. Also, Indonesia at one stage, was vying for power in the Asia-Pacific region. So anything's possible with them.

Well you answered one of my questions, finally! The Muslims in New Zealand, Australia and Indonesia don't hate you for your freedom? Those Muslims can't share their religion with you without "attacking" you? Indonesia is in the Asia-Pacific region. Why would they not be vying for power there? Why shouldn't they be? Is this yet another double standard about to blossom?

Also, have you any clue what "force projection" is? You're the one apparently going on about it.

I don't have a clue how its relevant to my question that prompted you to bring it up, no. How is force projection relevant to Muslims not hating you for your freedom? What does that have to do with one's military capability? I'll try to read between the lines for you here and ask, do you think that military power should be the driver of what kind of relationships we have towards other people in the world?

Well, as far as anyone is concerned, you haven't exactly dismissed anything more than label me all kinds of things which I'm not. Are you trying to get me banned? Because I disagree with you? I can't "handle your principles"? LOL! The only thing I can't handle from you is your BS. Which this is. You can sit there and pretend that you are somehow morally superior or something and that is your perogative. I'm not going to stop you from that. But seeing as I don't subscribe to your version of arrogance and faux morality, you don't have the right to try to force your own opinions on me.

I think we both know that you're grasping a straws with this one. I don't respect the US or most Americans (especially you) at all. So why you'd think that I'd respect something the Americans had done is beyond me.

I'm not trying to dismiss you I'm trying to invite you. And again, I'm not morally superior to anything. You cannot seem to handle the task of finding a principle that we can use to determine how best to treat other people without descending into a maze of double standards that you are emotionally hooked on. A principle that can cut through all the group-think mentality, the races, the religions, the ethnicities, the diversity of opinions, the climates, cultures, creeds, and the sins of the past that we all certainly have our fair shares of.

I believe in freedom enough to believe that we should get out of other peoples' ways and let them have it. Even "the Arabs", OMG! I know that's going to be tough for you to handle and I base that on everything you've said so far. I have no respect for hypocrisy and I never will, so there's nothing you can say that's going to change that. And I'm not forcing my opinions on you, I'm calling you out for the intrinsic lack of principle in yours. Your lack of principle is self evident and freestanding not by anything I've said but by everything you have. Eventually I'm going to make a list of double standards you've stepped in. You're serving to refine my position by identifying so many double standards they'll be new ones I haven't even seen yet. I'll do a running inventory of them now if you like that's not a problem. And you'll keep piling on, as the conversation continues, I have no doubt.

At this point I want to ask you to find a single standard of behavior, a principle, that's good enough for everyone. The human beings and the nations of the world. If you don't understand why this is important, I will be happy to explain that too in my next reply. I have no problem admitting that my opinion on what that single standard should be might not be the best, so you're more than welcome to join me in a pleasant intellectual exercise of trying to determine what the best standard really is. As for my opinion, I prefer legality over illegality. I prefer the rule of law in my own country which is the determining factor for most of the solutions I've already covered from a US standpoint. And that is because the rule of law is a good mechanism to provide a consistent standard. It's not going to be perfect, the law never is. It might not even be the best. I'm all for reforming laws that don't work with better laws that do. But as of this writing, I haven't gotten any consistent standard from you yet. If you reread through the last few exchanges, I have been grasping for straws trying to find one for you. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in doing this for you and you should feel good about that. If you don't respect Americans or me, then go find someone you do respect and spend the time you have left in your life with them. If you want to fight, go find somebody who wants to fight you. If you can't even handle that, then you're just another bully who needs to be taught a lesson.

[MichaelW]

If you're right it's yet another example of the nation that's supposedly wanting "peace" being the same nation that happens to be proliferating weapons all around the globe. But, because Israel is so heavy-handed in its foreign and domestic policies, because it's so reliant on weapons and force to solve its problems, and because it's basically a gigantic military base for what the government claims are my "national interests", and because you don't have any numbers but only notice they're bigtime proliferators, I'm sorry I have to reject your claim as likely being false.

If? I am right. Israel has a massive defence industry because it needs the money to fund other programs. Seeing as oil and tourism are out of the question (although I am reliably informed by some Israelis I know outside of the forums that the country is pretty safe but I still wouldn't go there), what else has Israel got to make money? I hear they've started exporting water. But anyway, of course Israel has a massive military per capita because it has to deal with the threats posed by its neighbours, especially the unpredictable Syrians.

I'm going to put this into perspective. Israel's always been a fairly militaristic state before it acquired Gaza and the West Bank in 1967 purely because it had to defend itself. The IDF is a conventionally equipped and conventionally tactical military which is fighting in a guerilla style warfare against insurgents in an urban environment. Civilian casualties are inevitable, as everyone (except you) accepts. It's called collateral damage. It has to use the military because it lacks a gendarmerie for more urban operations where they need to aprehend suspects who might be plotting something. The IDF is geared towards a war against either Egypt, Jordan or Syria which is coventional, i.e widespread use of artillery, tanks, air support etc.

My claim isn't false by any stretch of the imagination but rather your inability to understand anything related to the military. Why you bother with a battleship as you avatar is beyond me if you can't even tell the difference between a Galil rifle and an AK-47. But in fact, I was wrong. It isn't 10th. It is now the fourth biggest arms exporter, according to this article. But it depends on where you go to get the statistics, as the arms industry fluctuates.

You don't have a chance of explaining how that's a strawman. Just keep thinking that baseless claims are going to work eventually and that I won't ask you to explain yourself. I have little expectation you'll try to explain, but there's no limit to how many questions I'll ask you, and the ones that you can't answer are the most rewarding of all. No matter how poor your questions get, I will answer yours as if there is no such thing as bad questions, because my greatest wish is to continue this discussion with as many people for as long as possible. I've already been blessed to meet highly intelligent people here who are more than capable of progressing the discussion in a productive way, and I hope this thread stays open and inclusive for any new posters who haven't participated yet.

It's this attitude is the reason why I don't like you. You are so full of it. "I have been blessed by meeting highly intelligent people here." Who? Get over yourself. I don't have such a high opinion of myself and yet I have to put up with this **** from someone who can't even be bothered to back up his so-called argument with facts.

Now onto your question. What, exactly, has the Israeli government done to "steal" the property of Palestinians? They bodily evicted them from their property, they destroy Palestinian property, they confiscate it by force, they exploit it and consume it for themselves, they're colonizing it, building settlements on it, roads through it, checkpoints on it, stealing resources from it, stationing military forces on it, building bunkers, watchtowers, fences, walls, and cages through it and violently throwing down anyone who interferes with their perpetual criminal and internationally condemned theft. They're thieves. And that's just Palestinian property which is only one civil liberty out of many I'm not even addressing here. That you didn't even know this makes me question whether you know anything about Palestinian land and it makes me question who I've been talking to and why. Did you at least watch and read through the discussion on this thread yet? Please, take an hour or two to do so and it might broaden the discussion and refine its relevance.

I thought this wasn't about the settlers. But seeing as it is, I've already said I don't condone what their doing. But go ahead and ignore it. Your blind idiocy always prevails in the end. Although, the rest made me laugh.

The facts are not contained by all you said. The Act that you're referring to banned nuclear powered ships and nuclear materials from your ports. You're bragging about what your government did, the motivation for so doing was over environmental hazards that were causing cancer and other illnesses from nuclear radiation and nuclear waste. The Act that you're referring to bans the dumping of radioactive waste in New Zealand's waters. Now what? You don't support the Act for the reason it exists, you just wanted to throw darts at me? Or is it that you don't care why the government did what it did, because whatever it does is sacrosanct?

Supporting one Act doesn't make me an environmentalist. Just like supporting Israel doesn't make me a Zionist. I support some of what both governments do. I don't like some of what the current government is doing in both countries. But seeing as supporting one law makes me support all laws in that ****ed up logic of yours, therefore, according to you, I must.

Well you answered one of my questions, finally! The Muslims in New Zealand, Australia and Indonesia don't hate you for your freedom? Those Muslims can't share their religion with you without "attacking" you? Indonesia is in the Asia-Pacific region. Why would they not be vying for power there? Why shouldn't they be? Is this yet another double standard about to blossom?

Because Indonesia tried to acquire nuclear arms, making it the only country in the SE Easia region to do so. And considering their leader at that time was a maniac who tried starting a war against the Malaysians and the British, we had to be concerned. Just as we were as concerned with your nuclear powered ships and French nuclear weapons testing. Also, how is it double standards when you read so far into the question, you then start to ramble on about an entirely different subject? Since when has it about Mulsims hatin me for my freedom? It hasn't.

I'm not trying to dismiss you I'm trying to invite you. And again, I'm not morally superior to anything. You cannot seem to handle the task of finding a principle that we can use to determine how best to treat other people without descending into a maze of double standards that you are emotionally hooked on. A principle that can cut through all the group-think mentality, the races, the religions, the ethnicities, the diversity of opinions, the climates, cultures, creeds, and the sins of the past that we all certainly have our fair shares of.

But I don't want to subscribe to the teachings of Lenin and Marx. I'm quite happy not being an arrogant and bitter communist.

I believe in freedom enough to believe that we should get out of other peoples' ways and let them have it. Even "the Arabs", OMG! I know that's going to be tough for you to handle and I base that on everything you've said so far. I have no respect for hypocrisy and I never will, so there's nothing you can say that's going to change that. And I'm not forcing my opinions on you, I'm calling you out for the intrinsic lack of principle in yours. Your lack of principle is self evident and freestanding not by anything I've said but by everything you have. Eventually I'm going to make a list of double standards you've stepped in. You're serving to refine my position by identifying so many double standards they'll be new ones I haven't even seen yet. I'll do a running inventory of them now if you like that's not a problem. And you'll keep piling on, as the conversation continues, I have no doubt.

Lack of principle? Who the hell gives you the right to lecture me on whether or not I have principles?

At this point I want to ask you to find a single standard of behavior, a principle, that's good enough for everyone. The human beings and the nations of the world. If you don't understand why this is important, I will be happy to explain that too in my next reply. I have no problem admitting that my opinion on what that single standard should be might not be the best, so you're more than welcome to join me in a pleasant intellectual exercise of trying to determine what the best standard really is. As for my opinion, I prefer legality over illegality. I prefer the rule of law in my own country which is the determining factor for most of the solutions I've already covered from a US standpoint. And that is because the rule of law is a good mechanism to provide a consistent standard. It's not going to be perfect, the law never is. It might not even be the best. I'm all for reforming laws that don't work with better laws that do. But as of this writing, I haven't gotten any consistent standard from you yet. If you reread through the last few exchanges, I have been grasping for straws trying to find one for you. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt in doing this for you and you should feel good about that. If you don't respect Americans or me, then go find someone you do respect and spend the time you have left in your life with them. If you want to fight, go find somebody who wants to fight you. If you can't even handle that, then you're just another bully who needs to be taught a lesson.

You do not have the right to lecture me on my principles You do not have the right to lecture me on hypocracy. You do not have the right to "teach me a lesson" because as far as I am concerned, I don't need schooling. I am entitled to my opinions and I am entitled to believe what I want to believe without having some sanctimonious, hypocritical, abhorrent, arrogant narcissist who likes the look of his own posts and thinks that his opinion is the only opinion and God help anyone else who disagrees.

At least with Ex, you get a more civil discussion. With you, it's "I'm better than you so I'll spend five posts reminding you of my superiority and lecturing you on your morality and principles, seeing as mine are far superior."

Have I questioned your morals? No. Have I questioned your principles? No? You speak of freedom and yet all you to is try an impress your opinions on other people. Pity then, seeing as my mind is already made up.

[Yamato]

If? I am right. Israel has a massive defence industry because it needs the money to fund other programs. Seeing as oil and tourism are out of the question (although I am reliably informed by some Israelis I know outside of the forums that the country is pretty safe but I still wouldn't go there), what else has Israel got to make money? I hear they've started exporting water. But anyway, of course Israel has a massive military per capita because it has to deal with the threats posed by its neighbours, especially the unpredictable Syrians.

Oh the threats and the unpredictable Syrians! I almost forgot. I apologize again that I've done my homework and the internet is void of any evidence that I was able to find that Israel is a net exporter of weapons. I reject your claim as likely false. Water? You don't know what else Israel has got to make money? Well it's machinery and equipment, software, cut diamonds, agricultural products, chemicals, textiles and apparel, food and pharmaceuticals among other things. Information about Israel's economy is readily available. Despite these major exports, they are a net importer overall.

I'm going to put this into perspective. Israel's always been a fairly militaristic state before it acquired Gaza and the West Bank in 1967 purely because it had to defend itself. The IDF is a conventionally equipped and conventionally tactical military which is fighting in a guerilla style warfare against insurgents in an urban environment. Civilian casualties are inevitable, as everyone (except you) accepts. It's called collateral damage. It has to use the military because it lacks a gendarmerie for more urban operations where they need to aprehend suspects who might be plotting something. The IDF is geared towards a war against either Egypt, Jordan or Syria which is coventional, i.e widespread use of artillery, tanks, air support etc.

Into a relevant perspective to this topic, the settlements have nothing to do with Israel "purely defending itself" because the settlements are not Israel's property.

My claim isn't false by any stretch of the imagination but rather your inability to understand anything related to the military. Why you bother with a battleship as you avatar is beyond me if you can't even tell the difference between a Galil rifle and an AK-47. But in fact, I was wrong. It isn't 10th. It is now the fourth biggest arms exporter, according to this article. But it depends on where you go to get the statistics, as the arms industry fluctuates.

I'm sorry but you've failed at providing any evidence that Israel is a net exporter of weapons. If you provide that evidence, which is probably available online if you care enough to do some homework, I will believe it. That will involve numbers, not personal attacks. But I don't care one way or the other. At all. Finding out that Israel is a bigger arms proliferator than I already thought it was is interesting trivia, nothing more.

If you want to teach the community here all about your wonderful military knowledge, start a new thread and I'll stop by to participate if you like but don't muddy my thread up anymore with your personal attacks or changes of subject please. I don't take anything on faith especially when you talk about things you know nothing about. You know absolutely nothing about me but what I've shared here. Surely there's a different forum about military and weapons and I'll cut my teeth on that subject with you there.

It's this attitude is the reason why I don't like you. You are so full of it. "I have been blessed by meeting highly intelligent people here." Who? Get over yourself. I don't have such a high opinion of myself and yet I have to put up with this **** from someone who can't even be bothered to back up his so-called argument with facts.

Like I said, you didn't have a prayer at identifying the "straw man".

And now what argument are you talking about? You keep talking about "my so-called argument". What are you talking about? I have a lack of facts on Israel's total arms imports vs. exports. So I'm not going to conclude one way or the other because I currently lack those figures, as do you.

I thought this wasn't about the settlers. But seeing as it is, I've already said I don't condone what their doing. But go ahead and ignore it. Your blind idiocy always prevails in the end. Although, the rest made me laugh.

That reply certainly wasn't about the settlers at all. Are the settlers building the settlements according to you? Yes, the Israeli government is indeed colonizing Palestinian land and building settlements on it. You can cherry pick that small part of my reply and put it in bold whenever you like. That answers your question how Israel's government is stealing property from the Palestinians! What are the settlers doing that you don't condone exactly? I blame the settlers less for living on the property that the Israeli government has stolen for them to live on than the thieves who stole it. Settlers are essentially welfare recipients reaping the benefits of Zionist Israel's policy. As I've said, it is policy that matters. The policy of the Israeli government is the problem and policy requires people to carry it out and support it. The people creating, administering, enforcing, and supporting the policy personify the problem. Settlers would be policy supporters like yourself, though they live in Israel every day, whereas you just claimed it was too dangerous to even visit. So based on your own assessment, maybe the policy isn't working, eh?

Supporting one Act doesn't make me an environmentalist. Just like supporting Israel doesn't make me a Zionist. I support some of what both governments do. I don't like some of what the current government is doing in both countries. But seeing as supporting one law makes me support all laws in that ****ed up logic of yours, therefore, according to you, I must.

So you don't seek to improve and protect the quality of the natural environment through changes to environmentally harmful human activities? That's exactly what that Act does and that's environmentalism by definition. But now you only support this one Act to protect your environment? Why?

While I don't care what you are, you do support Zionist policy thus far without exception. That would make a Zionist. Now for the first time ever, you're retreating from yourself by claiming disagreement with something the Zionist regime has done but you didn't even provide a single example of what. I'm very, very interested in hearing some examples of what you disagree with that's coming out of that Zionist regime. You've defended every double standard Israel gets away with in the world thus far and are swimming in hypocrisy for it. I'm not bashful about calling you out either; there's no reason to be.

Because Indonesia tried to acquire nuclear arms, making it the only country in the SE Easia region to do so. And considering their leader at that time was a maniac who tried starting a war against the Malaysians and the British, we had to be concerned. Just as we were as concerned with your nuclear powered ships and French nuclear weapons testing. Also, how is it double standards when you read so far into the question, you then start to ramble on about an entirely different subject? Since when has it about Mulsims hatin me for my freedom? It hasn't.

Right. It never was about Muslims hating you for your freedom thus we agree that it's creating stupid wars for no apparent reason that they hate. It's killing Muslims, occupying their land, supporting oppressive regimes, arming the terrorist state of Israel, and so forth. It's policy, again. You're not attacked because you don't have these silly American policies. That is a huge agreement that you walked into and if you won't acknowledge it, I will.

Now here you go again with yet another double standard. Israel tried to acquire nuclear arms, making it the only country in the Middle East to do so. Considering their leaders at the time were terrorists and slaughterers of civilians, maniacs if you will, who not only tried to start wars but actually have started wars, other people in that region have to be concerned too. Based on your posting history here, you cannot handle any single standard, no matter what it is.

But I don't want to subscribe to the teachings of Lenin and Marx. I'm quite happy not being an arrogant and bitter communist.

You're extremely arrogant and bitter for the policies of Zionist Israel from the look of it. And like the "straw man" you don't have a prayer at demonstrating how what you just replied to subscribes to Lenin or Marx.

Lack of principle? Who the hell gives you the right to lecture me on whether or not I have principles?

I'm bestowed by my Creator with my rights. Sometimes they're called Civil Liberties which are good enough for Palestinians too. GASP! And when I ask you for a principle that's good enough for everyone and you can't provide it, I lean heavily towards the "not" option.

You do not have the right to lecture me on my principles You do not have the right to lecture me on hypocracy. You do not have the right to "teach me a lesson" because as far as I am concerned, I don't need schooling. I am entitled to my opinions and I am entitled to believe what I want to believe without having some sanctimonious, hypocritical, abhorrent, arrogant narcissist who likes the look of his own posts and thinks that his opinion is the only opinion and God help anyone else who disagrees.

Now that your dander is sufficiently up, your inner Zionist is pouring out of you, actually telling me what my rights aren't. I actually do have the right to lecture you. That would be my 1st Amendment right that all Americans share. It's called freedom of speech. You don't have to listen, you don't have to log in, you can even take my prior suggestion and find something better to do if this is so emotionally difficult, and you can even say whatever you want as long as it's within the website admin's guidelines. The internet is the wild west like that, free from govt control and govt corruption and we ought to hope and pray it stays that way before we wind up dealing with control freaks who really do decide for us what our rights aren't.

At least with Ex, you get a more civil discussion. With you, it's "I'm better than you so I'll spend five posts reminding you of my superiority and lecturing you on your morality and principles, seeing as mine are far superior."

For the third time, I'm not better than anyone and while I actually have principles, I don't know that my principles are best. I'm willing to defend them because they are defensible. What would we be if not a people based on the rule of law? Criminals. That might be your shtick but I want no part of it. The Zionist regime of Israel needs to find a new money hole to scavenge. I'm sick and tired of paying for that illegal fiasco. Your personal snips from across the Pacific notwithstanding.

Have I questioned your morals? No. Have I questioned your principles? No? You speak of freedom and yet all you to is try an impress your opinions on other people. Pity then, seeing as my mind is already made up.

You are more than welcome to question my morals. You're more than welcome, and in fact I just got done inviting you in my previous reply, to question my principles. Of course I speak of freedom. Impressing my principles on you is helping you out. What principles, IF ANY, do you have that are arguably as good or even better than mine? I haven't found one yet. I'm still waiting in the wings. My hope isn't an infinite reservoir though.

[hetrodoxly]

Cars. "A rarity in Gaza." "Only 200 SMUGGLED in."

Nice job pointing out the "reality". This barbaric siege must end.

Are you for real? we've gone from starving children to they can't have a new car, there's people in the world who have to walk for days to get water, unlike Palestine they don't have a brand new ambulance turn up at exactly the same time they have an injury, there'd be no point anyway because there's no hospital to take them to, you're not interested because their suppressors aren't Jewish, don't fret i've started a campaign "Polo's for Palestine" yes we'll have the first shipment of VW Polo's next week, i know it's not much to keep them going but by nest month we'll have some VW Golfs as well if only they can hang on.

[Yamato]

Are you for real? we've gone from starving children to they can't have a new car, there's people in the world who have to walk for days to get water, unlike Palestine they don't have a brand new ambulance turn up at exactly the same time they have an injury, there'd be no point anyway because there's no hospital to take them to, you're not interested because their suppressors aren't Jewish, don't fret i've started a campaign "Polo's for Palestine" yes we'll have the first shipment of VW Polo's next week, i know it's not much to keep them going but by nest month we'll have some VW Golfs as well if only they can hang on.

Smuggling cars? What is the purpose this insane crap of a policy? Cars should be brought into the ports of Gaza without the Zionist cagemasters telling anyone that they're not allowed. Smuggling 200 cars into Gaza disproves starving children? There's starving children in the United States for God's sake are you kidding? You don't care about that, you want to keep bilking the US of wealth to flow into that militarized welfare-laden armpit in the Middle East that needs a huge dose of self responsibility.

Time to cut that umbilical cord off once and for all.

Scalpel.

[hetrodoxly]

Smuggling cars? What is the purpose this insane crap of a policy? Cars should be brought into the ports of Gaza without the Zionist cagemasters telling anyone that they're not allowed. Smuggling 200 cars into Gaza disproves starving children? There's starving children in the United States for God's sake are you kidding? You don't care about that, you want to keep bilking the US of wealth to flow into that militarized welfare-laden armpit in the Middle East that needs a huge dose of self responsibility.

Time to cut that umbilical cord off once and for all.

Scalpel.

Knock.....Knock.......anyone there.......HELO HELLo HELlo HEllo Hello hello, are you in a parallel universe, would someone interpret for me.

[MichaelW]

Oh the threats and the unpredictable Syrians! I almost forgot. I apologize again that I've done my homework and the internet is void of any evidence that I was able to find that Israel is a net exporter of weapons. I reject your claim as likely false. Water? You don't know what else Israel has got to make money? Well it's machinery and equipment, software, cut diamonds, agricultural products, chemicals, textiles and apparel, food and pharmaceuticals among other things. Information about Israel's economy is readily available. Despite these major exports, they are a net importer overall.

Again, the lack of actual evidence is proving your downfall. You have no sources to back your argument.

Into a relevant perspective to this topic, the settlements have nothing to do with Israel "purely defending itself" because the settlements are not Israel's property.

They are controlled by the government and therefore subject to the word of Israeli law.

I'm sorry but you've failed at providing any evidence that Israel is a net exporter of weapons. If you provide that evidence, which is probably available online if you care enough to do some homework, I will believe it. That will involve numbers, not personal attacks. But I don't care one way or the other. At all. Finding out that Israel is a bigger arms proliferator than I already thought it was is interesting trivia, nothing more.

Again, your lack of hard evidence is your downfall. So, far, you have mere said in my opinion. Your opinion, without sources, is just that. An opinion. If you cannot differentiate between the two then that's your problem.

If you want to teach the community here all about your wonderful military knowledge, start a new thread and I'll stop by to participate if you like but don't muddy my thread up anymore with your personal attacks or changes of subject please. I don't take anything on faith especially when you talk about things you know nothing about. You know absolutely nothing about me but what I've shared here. Surely there's a different forum about military and weapons and I'll cut my teeth on that subject with you there.

I have already. Many members here know that I am quite knowlegdable about militaries worldwide. You can ask them. But just because you fail to see anything outside your own, ill-informed opinions, doesn't mean to say that you can necessarily tar other people with the same brush.

While I don't care what you are, you do support Zionist policy thus far without exception. That would make a Zionist. Now for the first time ever, you're retreating from yourself by claiming disagreement with something the Zionist regime has done but you didn't even provide a single example of what. I'm very, very interested in hearing some examples of what you disagree with that's coming out of that Zionist regime. You've defended every double standard Israel gets away with in the world thus far and are swimming in hypocrisy for it. I'm not bashful about calling you out either; there's no reason to be.

Again, your opinion. I doubt you even know what Zionism is.

Now here you go again with yet another double standard. Israel tried to acquire nuclear arms, making it the only country in the Middle East to do so. Considering their leaders at the time were terrorists and slaughterers of civilians, maniacs if you will, who not only tried to start wars but actually have started wars, other people in that region have to be concerned too. Based on your posting history here, you cannot handle any single standard, no matter what it is.

Israel already has nuclear armaments (as you have already proved in your "let's state the obvious" nuclear thread) and Iran and Syria have tried to acquire them. In fact, as far as I know, Syria is trying to acquire them still, despite the fact that they had their nuclear reactor bombed by Israelis.

I'm bestowed by my Creator with my rights. Sometimes they're called Civil Liberties which are good enough for Palestinians too. GASP! And when I ask you for a principle that's good enough for everyone and you can't provide it, I lean heavily towards the "not" option.

So you're a religious nut as well. I though there was something especially sanctimonious about your attitude. To be honest, I don't have a problem with any religion or religious people in general. However, you're an exception.

Now that your dander is sufficiently up, your inner Zionist is pouring out of you, actually telling me what my rights aren't. I actually do have the right to lecture you. That would be my 1st Amendment right that all Americans share. It's called freedom of speech. You don't have to listen, you don't have to log in, you can even take my prior suggestion and find something better to do if this is so emotionally difficult, and you can even say whatever you want as long as it's within the website admin's guidelines. The internet is the wild west like that, free from govt control and govt corruption and we ought to hope and pray it stays that way before we wind up dealing with control freaks who really do decide for us what our rights aren't.

Uh, no you don't. I'm not an American citizen and I don't live in the United States. Where I live, that's called slander. You don't have the right to lecture me. As for "control freaks", hah. Look in the mirror, mate.

Of course I speak of freedom. Impressing my principles on you is helping you out. What principles, IF ANY, do you have that are arguably as good or even better than mine? I haven't found one yet. I'm still waiting in the wings. My hope isn't an infinite reservoir though.

Wow. So much hypocracy in one scentence, not even Hamas' spokesperson could come up with it. You say you speak of freedoms and yet you want to impress your beliefs on me. That's not freedom. I'm quite happy with who I am and I don't need someone preaching to me what they think is best for me.

You say you don't think your better than anyone else. And yet you say that my principles aren't as good as yours. So that blows your "I'm not holier than thou" argument clean out of the water becaue you do think that your better than me. But you are so full of your sanctimonious, self-righteous self that you cannot see that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your are a hypocrite. Deny all you want, but you can't hide from the truth.

[Yamato]

Again, the lack of actual evidence is proving your downfall. You have no sources to back your argument.

They are controlled by the government and therefore subject to the word of Israeli law.

Again, your lack of hard evidence is your downfall. So, far, you have mere said in my opinion. Your opinion, without sources, is just that. An opinion. If you cannot differentiate between the two then that's your problem.

I have already. Many members here know that I am quite knowlegdable about militaries worldwide. You can ask them. But just because you fail to see anything outside your own, ill-informed opinions, doesn't mean to say that you can necessarily tar other people with the same brush.

Again, your opinion. I doubt you even know what Zionism is.

Israel already has nuclear armaments (as you have already proved in your "let's state the obvious" nuclear thread) and Iran and Syria have tried to acquire them. In fact, as far as I know, Syria is trying to acquire them still, despite the fact that they had their nuclear reactor bombed by Israelis.

So you're a religious nut as well. I though there was something especially sanctimonious about your attitude. To be honest, I don't have a problem with any religion or religious people in general. However, you're an exception.

Uh, no you don't. I'm not an American citizen and I don't live in the United States. Where I live, that's called slander. You don't have the right to lecture me. As for "control freaks", hah. Look in the mirror, mate.

Wow. So much hypocracy in one scentence, not even Hamas' spokesperson could come up with it. You say you speak of freedoms and yet you want to impress your beliefs on me. That's not freedom. I'm quite happy with who I am and I don't need someone preaching to me what they think is best for me.

You say you don't think your better than anyone else. And yet you say that my principles aren't as good as yours. So that blows your "I'm not holier than thou" argument clean out of the water becaue you do think that your better than me. But you are so full of your sanctimonious, self-righteous self that you cannot see that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your are a hypocrite. Deny all you want, but you can't hide from the truth.

Again, the lack of actual evidence is proving your downfall. You have no sources to back your argument.

What "argument"? How many times do I have to ask the same question before you answer?

I can't find any evidence anywhere online that Israel is a net exporter of weapons. That is a fact. If you can find something, present it now. If you fail to do so, you will be considered incapable of finding it as well.

They are controlled by the government and therefore subject to the word of Israeli law.

Yes the almighty government control. The essence of your every reply. Israeli policy is in violation of international law. US foreign policy is in violation of US law. So the law matters to me and that's why I oppose the criminal Zionists from both Israel and the US.

Again, your lack of hard evidence is your downfall. So, far, you have mere said in my opinion. Your opinion, without sources, is just that. An opinion. If you cannot differentiate between the two then that's your problem.

Yes, and my opinion is based on the evidence, or in the case of your claim, the lack of evidence. If I have a lack of evidence, I reserve passing judgment and drawing conclusions. Your baseless claim is rejected as false. I've provided some facts about Israel's economy that you didn't know and you can't acknowledge that either. You could do some homework and verify what I say and if there's any conceivable error in anything I've said on this entire thread, it is your duty to come here and point out exactly what that is. I invite you and encourage you to do this at all times not only in this thread but anywhere else I may post. If I'm not correct about something, nobody wants that to change more than I do.

I have already. Many members here know that I am quite knowlegdable about militaries worldwide. You can ask them. But just because you fail to see anything outside your own, ill-informed opinions, doesn't mean to say that you can necessarily tar other people with the same brush.

Congratulations to you. I have no ill-will towards anyone and I'm not about to let you drag your friends into this strange urge to compete with me in knowledge about worldwide militaries that I could care less about; that is off-topic. As I said, if you're discussing that topic in other forums, send me a personal message or a link, and I'll be happy to check it out. I already expect you to have knowledge about matters of government force control because that's the theme that seems to saturate your thinking. If there's a bureaucrat, or a piece of paper, or a shiny grey vehicle with guns pointing out of it I do expect to see some respect out of you for it.

Again, your opinion. I doubt you even know what Zionism is.

You're defending the practice of imposing this set of rights on this group of people and that set of rights on that group. That is bigotry and hypocrisy and I'm sorry but I find it disgusting. Zionism is what Zionism does and people who defend those actions are as Zionist as they need to be for purposes of discussion here.

Israel already has nuclear armaments (as you have already proved in your "let's state the obvious" nuclear thread) and Iran and Syria have tried to acquire them. In fact, as far as I know, Syria is trying to acquire them still, despite the fact that they had their nuclear reactor bombed by Israelis.

I didn't prove anything about Israel's armaments. I think it's safe enough to presume they have the capability of producing bomb-making materials and components.

So you're a religious nut as well. I though there was something especially sanctimonious about your attitude. To be honest, I don't have a problem with any religion or religious people in general. However, you're an exception.

No, I'm not a religious nut. I'm not that religious. I'm either a good agnostic or a bad Catholic, but religious? No. But what does this have to do with me? This is the rule of law of the United States. If you don't like the law of my land, go live in your own land and mind your own business.

Uh, no you don't. I'm not an American citizen and I don't live in the United States. Where I live, that's called slander. You don't have the right to lecture me. As for "control freaks", hah. Look in the mirror, mate.

No, you've got it backwards. I'm the one that's setting a standard that we shouldn't be going out into the world and controlling anyone. We both have the right to use this website for its intended purpose and post here, even if we feel we're being lectured to, unless and until the powers that dwell above tell us otherwise. You're overstepping your bounds to tell me what my rights aren't. That's exactly what Israel is doing to the Palestinians.

Wow. So much hypocracy in one scentence, not even Hamas' spokesperson could come up with it. You say you speak of freedoms and yet you want to impress your beliefs on me. That's not freedom. I'm quite happy with who I am and I don't need someone preaching to me what they think is best for me.

How is asking you for a principle hypocrisy? Principles avoid hypocrisy, not the opposite.

Of course I speak of freedom. Yes, I want to impress upon you the concept of having principle. I am challenging you to come up with a principle of behavior that is good enough for all nations of the world, and by extension of that good principle, all human beings. Do you understand this? This is how we'll put an end to your rampant double standards once and for all.

You say you don't think your better than anyone else. And yet you say that my principles aren't as good as yours.

No, I never said that. When desperation sets in, dishonesty begins. I said that I don't see you have any principle. I've given you every benefit of the doubt and repeatedly asked you how many times for your principle and what have you answered me with?

So that blows your "I'm not holier than thou" argument clean out of the water becaue you do think that your better than me. But you are so full of your sanctimonious, self-righteous self that you cannot see that. Sorry to burst your bubble, but your are a hypocrite. Deny all you want, but you can't hide from the truth.

No. For the 4th time, I don't think I'm better than you at all. I think I have a principle that's good enough to apply to everyone and your double standards came and went after they were challenged with it. This isn't a reflection of you personally like you're attacking me personally for not being able to handle the principle.

[Yamato]

Here's a good example of someone of principle deserving to be emulated. Dr. Ursula Franklin who I find utterly defensible to the letter of her word. So from this point on, I will borrow on her input from this video in order to accurately flesh out the purpose of this thread, and help to prevent any genuine misunderstanding of it. In short, she intellectually commands a consistent standard of behavior for all.

From the video:

Ursula Franklin is a Pearson Medal of Peace recipient and a Companion of the Order of Canada, a research physicist and author renowned for her work on technology and human rights activist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5-mpAqcNoI

[MichaelW]

I already expect you to have knowledge about matters of government force control because that's the theme that seems to saturate your thinking. If there's a bureaucrat, or a piece of paper, or a shiny grey vehicle with guns pointing out of it I do expect to see some respect out of you for it.

Right. Just like if there is a Palestinian with a vest full of dynamite running into an Israeli school, I expect to seem some respect out of your for it. You don't know me at all or what I respect so don't even go there. Get back to the discussion or I will have the mods on to you.

You're defending the practice of imposing this set of rights on this group of people and that set of rights on that group. That is bigotry and hypocrisy and I'm sorry but I find it disgusting. Zionism is what Zionism does and people who defend those actions are as Zionist as they need to be for purposes of discussion here.

I find you abhorrent. Happy now?

How is asking you for a principle hypocrisy? Principles avoid hypocrisy, not the opposite.

Of course I speak of freedom. Yes, I want to impress upon you the concept of having principle. I am challenging you to come up with a principle of behavior that is good enough for all nations of the world, and by extension of that good principle, all human beings. Do you understand this? This is how we'll put an end to your rampant double standards once and for all.

Why do you have this sense that I have double standards? And why do you feel you need to fix something that is neither your business nor relevant to this discussion nor anything to do with you?

No, I never said that. When desperation sets in, dishonesty begins. I said that I don't see you have any principle. I've given you every benefit of the doubt and repeatedly asked you how many times for your principle and what have you answered me with?

What principles, IF ANY, do you have that are arguably as good or even better than mine?

What does this look like to you? This is none of your ****ing business nor is it anyone elses. I'm not asking about yours and I don't want to know. Get back onto the subject or the mods will be called. Do you understand me?

No. For the 4th time, I don't think I'm better than you at all. I think I have a principle that's good enough to apply to everyone and your double standards came and went after they were challenged with it. This isn't a reflection of you personally like you're attacking me personally for not being able to handle the principle.

See above. How I go about my life is none of your business. What I believe in is none of your business. What my principles are is non of your business. And don't try and impress your sanctimonious, hypocritcal **** on me because I don't want it. I don't want to be like you. I want to believe what I want to believe without having some ****wit like you making assumptions. What does this have to do with the Palestinians? Nothing!

There is no reason of this **** from you. I don't need to change anything.

[Yamato]

Right. Just like if there is a Palestinian with a vest full of dynamite running into an Israeli school, I expect to seem some respect out of your for it. You don't know me at all or what I respect so don't even go there. Get back to the discussion or I will have the mods on to you.

I'm not the one justifying violence on this thread; I'm the one excoriating it. You've deliberately misunderstood everything I've said yet and I don't know what you think that's going to accomplish. Disingenuous stubbornness isn't going to allow a real discussion whether you call for help or not. You're good to bump my thread but I'm going to contribute far more on this thread than bantering back and forth with you.

Why do you have this sense that I have double standards?

Because I read everything you wrote and I've identified many double standards already and unless you fail to continue replying I'm certain I'll discover more to come.

And why do you feel you need to fix something that is neither your business nor relevant to this discussion nor anything to do with you?

Because learning the civility required to treat all human beings with dignity has everything to do with this discussion. Finding a consistent standard of behavior that disallows the bigotry of choosing one ethnicity, religion, or race over another, and the hypocrisy of stooping in one double standard after another, is the means to that end.

What does this look like to you?

This -"What principles, IF ANY, do you have that are arguably as good or even better than mine?"- looks like a question to me. Unfortunately my patience just ran out of quarters, so the answer is that you have none. I have a principle that I'm here to share with you. You can't attack me into not sharing it with you. You can choose not to read it. You can control your index finger and not left-click on the link that takes you here. You can put me on ignore. But threatening me and bullying me isn't going to pay you any dividend.

It isn't even going to make you feel better.

But, if you (ever) have a principle for how all nations should behave towards one another, I'd love to hear it. Consider it an open invitation with no expiration date.

This is none of your ****ing business nor is it anyone elses. I'm not asking about yours and I don't want to know. Get back onto the subject or the mods will be called. Do you understand me?

Being as it is that I started the subject of this discussion I probably know what it is. As human beings, I think we should feel a bond of solidarity with Palestinians. This solidarity transcends religion, race, creed, or culture. It's a matter of the heart. Many of us will choose to remain desensitized by the purifying rhetoric of our own government bureaucrats and media pundits without really knowing why. Those who can turn a cold shoulder to such inhumanity upon being exposed to it reveal, however passively, the nature of their character. Some simply don't care. And I highly recommend you go find something else to do that you care about. Nobody is making you miserable but yourself.

See above. How I go about my life is none of your business. What I believe in is none of your business. What my principles are is non of your business. And don't try and impress your sanctimonious, hypocritcal **** on me because I don't want it. I don't want to be like you. I want to believe what I want to believe without having some ****wit like you making assumptions. What does this have to do with the Palestinians? Nothing!

Ultimately, it has to do with finding our common humanity; what makes us human. It has to do with putting aside our differences, and the petty evils of petty and evil men who wish us to grovel and hate over those differences instead of tolerate and even celebrate them. What we have in common with whatever group of people you're adamantly insisting we treat differently next, is far more important than what sets us apart.

There is no reason of this **** from you. I don't need to change anything.

Whether unwilling or unable, you have no answer to my challenge and I now suspect you never will. It becomes a moot point to keep asking the same question over and over again when an answer will never be forthcoming. Finding principles so good they may be universally applied isn't the easiest thing to ask. It requires some thought to say the least, but it also requires goodwill. You've hamstrung the discussion from any chance of progress with defensive posturing and unwillingness to cooperate so I don't see the point in further interaction between the two of us.

[Yamato]

"It is truly regrettable that a person will treat a man who is valuable to him well, and a man who is worthless to him poorly." ~ Hojo Shigetoki (1198-1261)

[MichaelW]

I'm not the one justifying violence on this thread; I'm the one excoriating it. You've deliberately misunderstood everything I've said yet and I don't know what you think that's going to accomplish. Disingenuous stubbornness isn't going to allow a real discussion whether you call for help or not. You're good to bump my thread but I'm going to contribute far more on this thread than bantering back and forth with you.

Good. Perhaps we can get back to the dicsussion at hand?

Because learning the civility required to treat all human beings with dignity has everything to do with this discussion. Finding a consistent standard of behavior that disallows the bigotry of choosing one ethnicity, religion, or race over another, and the hypocrisy of stooping in one double standard after another, is the means to that end.

No, the dicussion is about the Palestinian people, not other member's moral standings. There is a difference.

This -"What principles, IF ANY, do you have that are arguably as good or even better than mine?"- looks like a question to me.

No, it is you fruitlessly trying to assert some superiority over me. "Arguably as good or better than mine" is a comparison of me against you where you are trying to portray yourself that you are better than me.

It isn't even going to make you feel better.

On the contrary. I enjoy taking people like you down a peg or two.

Whether unwilling or unable, you have no answer to my challenge and I now suspect you never will. It becomes a moot point to keep asking the same question over and over again when an answer will never be forthcoming. Finding principles so good they may be universally applied isn't the easiest thing to ask. It requires some thought to say the least, but it also requires goodwill. You've hamstrung the discussion from any chance of progress with defensive posturing and unwillingness to cooperate so I don't see the point in further interaction between the two of us.

I'm giving you one more chance to get back on topic.

Also, if it becomes a moot point asking a question which you will know will never receive an answer for, then stop asking. A fairly simple concept most five year olds would understand.

[Yamato]

Dr. Norman Finkelstein is another individual worthy of emulation who understands the importance of having principle in determining how we treat people.

[MichaelW]

Dr. Norman Finkelstein is another individual worthy of emulation who understands the importance of having principle in determining how we treat people.

Stop being an ****. Get back on topic.

[Yamato]

Stop being an ****. Get back on topic.

The topic is who are Palestinians. The answer is, they are human beings.

Human beings who deserve the same human rights you conveniently enjoy and take for granted every day. It's truly regrettable that your strange emotional need for double standards can't handle that.

[MichaelW]

The topic is who are Palestinians. The answer is, they are human beings.

Human beings who deserve the same human rights you conveniently enjoy and take for granted every day. It's truly regrettable that your strange emotional need for double standards can't handle that.

This isn't about any standards. It's about Palestinians. I'm surprised you actually got that first hand. We should keep it to Palestinians and not anything else.

[Yamato]

This isn't about any standards. It's about Palestinians. I'm surprised you actually got that first hand. We should keep it to Palestinians and not anything else.

Nowhere in any reply you have ever written on this entire thread is it "about any standards", but don't wipe your incompetence on me.

The topic of discussion is established by the initial post which I advise you to read. The discussion here will continue to be about rejecting group-think mentality, eliminating hypocritical double standards towards different groups of people, and attempting to acknowledge a deeper solidarity in our humanity which includes Palestinians.

You don't have any principle and you're angry that I exposed you for it. Whatever you think that's going to do for you here, I have no idea.

[Yamato]

In the video that started this thread, I showcased some of the activists on board the MV Mavi Marmara of Freedom Flotilla. While they never made it into any of the discussion here yet, I've wondered these past few weeks if their faces are familiar to anyone here. David Rovics, one of my living heroes, delivered a beautiful song in 2010, this one about the fate of Freedom Flotilla, the first fleet assembled by civil society from around the world to break the years-long military siege of Gaza imposed by the Israeli government. So I invite you all on board with another song. Let's come together and go 'All Aboard the Mavi Marmara'!

[+and-then]

How quaint...The folk song would have been less offensive if there had been even a single point of balance in it. As it is - just a silly attempt at propaganda.

Ariel Sharon vacated thousands of settlers and removed the troops from Gaza in 2005. The rockets began flying into Israel within DAYS. I believe the same thing would happen if any of Judea or Samaria is given over to these stepchildren that the Arabs have abandoned to their fate.

Hamas is the defacto government of Gaza by popular acclamation and is recognised as a terrorist entity. Hamas has a charter that calls for the destruction of a member state of the UN. Israel has the right to blockade a foreign nation it is at war with.

Folksongs aside, Israel is soon going to kick the crap out of the vicious stepchildren of the terror masters. And the world will do exactly nothing of importance to stop it. The tune may be rising to crescendo but the song, sadly remains the same.

[MichaelW]

Nowhere in any reply you have ever written on this entire thread is it "about any standards", but don't wipe your incompetence on me.

I haven't because it isn't about any standards. You're the one making it so.

You don't have any principle and you're angry that I exposed you for it. Whatever you think that's going to do for you here, I have no idea.

You haven't exposed anything other than your assumed superiority over me because you think you have better principles. What you have shown to everyone is that you look down upon others that you disagree with, and that when confronted, attempt to use principles as an argument against them to defame their character. And no ones likes someone who has a high opinion of himself.

[Yamato]

I haven't because it isn't about any standards. You're the one making it so.

Of course I'm making it so because that's the topic of this thread that you're now denying because you can't understand. Palestinians are people who deserve the exact same rights as everyone else.

You haven't exposed anything other than your assumed superiority over me because you think you have better principles. What you have shown to everyone is that you look down upon others that you disagree with, and that when confronted, attempt to use principles as an argument against them to defame their character. And no ones likes someone who has a high opinion of himself.

Sorry, I'm done asking you for a principle that's good enough for Palestinians too. You are incapable of answering that question. You're incapable of discussing the issue without discussing me. For the 5th time, I'm not better than anyone. I don't want to be better than you. I want to be better than me.

[Yamato]

How quaint...The folk song would have been less offensive if there had been even a single point of balance in it. As it is - just a silly attempt at propaganda.

Ariel Sharon vacated thousands of settlers and removed the troops from Gaza in 2005. The rockets began flying into Israel within DAYS. I believe the same thing would happen if any of Judea or Samaria is given over to these stepchildren that the Arabs have abandoned to their fate.

Hamas is the defacto government of Gaza by popular acclamation and is recognised as a terrorist entity. Hamas has a charter that calls for the destruction of a member state of the UN. Israel has the right to blockade a foreign nation it is at war with.

Folksongs aside, Israel is soon going to kick the crap out of the vicious stepchildren of the terror masters. And the world will do exactly nothing of importance to stop it. The tune may be rising to crescendo but the song, sadly remains the same.

Ariel Sharon brutally evicted Israelis from their homes and destroyed their private property that was left behind. Israel's tyranny must end now or the lives of every Israeli citizen will remain in peril. Hamas isn't every Palestinian nor is it a reason to defend illegal collective punishment of millions of people including hundreds of thousands of children. That's not propaganda, that's pure evil.

[+and-then]

Hamas isn't every Palestinian nor is it a reason to defend illegal collective punishment of millions of people including hundreds of thousands of children. That's not propaganda, that's pure evil.

With all due respect to you, I am truly amazed that you seem to really be sincere about this nonsense you repeat ad nauseum. I could understand your stance if you were just baiting people here as a contrarian but apparently you ACTUALLY believe the drivel you spout. These two peoples are at WAR with one another. For decades tit for tat. When the good folks of Gaza elected a terrorist government that regularly attempts to kill Israelis those same good folks reaped the consequences of their actions. Cry and whine about sieges or fences but the irrefutable proof is that the Intifada basically stopped when these measures were put in place.

My opinion of these Arab stepchildren will not change until they begin publicly teaching THEIR children respect for the people of Israel. Not just how to kill them.

[MichaelW]

Of course I'm making it so because that's the topic of this thread that you're now denying because you can't understand. Palestinians are people who deserve the exact same rights as everyone else.

And I know this. But you made the discussion about my standards, not anyone elses,

Sorry, I'm done asking you for a principle that's good enough for Palestinians too. You are incapable of answering that question. You're incapable of discussing the issue without discussing me. For the 5th time, I'm not better than anyone. I don't want to be better than you. I want to be better than me.

No, you were asking me for a principle that was, and I quote from what you said "that as good as or better than mine". And I don't want to keep a conversation with someone who has a high-opinion of themselves and refuses to acknowledge that.

Ariel Sharon brutally evicted Israelis from their homes and destroyed their private property that was left behind. Israel's tyranny must end now or the lives of every Israeli citizen will remain in peril. Hamas isn't every Palestinian nor is it a reason to defend illegal collective punishment of millions of people including hundreds of thousands of children. That's not propaganda, that's pure evil.

Hang on, are you criticising someone who pulled out of Gaza to hand it over to the Palestinians?