Who are Palestinians?

[MichaelW]

Still talking about me huh? What denial of forum behavior?

Please stop speaking for other people including moderators vainly attempting to tell me what my rights aren't.

You know, Wyvernkeeper pointing out the way you present yourself and the hypocrisy that lies within. Also, seeing as it is my right to say what I want, I shall continue to do so regardless of what you want me to say.

But everyone else is "biased" because you're the one with the Israeli flags and fighter jets on your profile.

And you're the one going on about Zionism and Nazis. It's fair to say that the pot is calling the kettle black.

[MichaelW]

No, but that's what you will definitely insist it's all about because you can't lose the groupthink and accept the answer once it's given. I've already answered this question and you're still guessing? AGAIN, what the focus has been about here at least as far as you're concerned with me is, what is happening on Palestinian land. If Lebanon was encroaching on Palestinian land, or Israeli land, getting away with the hideous terroristic BS that Israel is on a daily basis, I would have a huge problem with that. Obviously as a non-interventionist I don't believe in meddling in the internal affairs of other countries. That means Hamas, and Likud, and Hezbollah all three. But Palestinians having their civil liberties destroyed by land hungry Israeli thieves isn't an internal Israeli issue. You want to believe it is, and these Zionists from Israel parrot the discrimination like it is, but it's not. The common feature you people have together is a lack of respect for other peoples' property and so we hope when this is over you will learn some respect.

Again, why can't you argue like a normal person? I'm trying to point out that discriminatio against Palestinians isn't unique to Israel and yet here you go saying that I think it is. You said I shouldn't speak for other people and here we have a whole paragraph of you trying to interperet what doesn't need to be interpereted. I made that point because I know the mistreatment of Palestinians extends beyond the borders of Israel.

Seriously, is there a loose connection in that head of yours?

Why justify terrorism against anyone? The terrorism is happening to Palestinians on a perpetual daily basis. If you really want to come here and convince people that you're against terrorism you need to stop supporting that immediately. No longer supporting Israeli terror isn't synonymous with supporting non-Israeli terror. They're not mutually exclusive, and moreover must not be.

I readily accept that Israel was founded on terrorism. I readily accept that Israel has committed terrorist acts against Palestinians. I know that this is not acceptable. Tell me, where exactly did I say that I supported terrorism perpetrated by Israel? Because as far as I can recall, I haven't.

[Erikl]

Glad I didn't check this thread over the weekend until now, I don't mind nonsense, but when spouted with such arrogance it grates hard.

BRLD and Q24, again I will say you misunderstand where I am coming from... I am one of the 'Jews' that fights for the Palestinian cause, but reading such warped opinions such as yours really makes me disillusioned with the modern left and it's relationship with the anti-Israel (not pro-Palestinian) bandwagon. It is sickening that when I try to explain the imprint that the Holocaust had on the development of Israeli psychology and the discussion suddenly became the opening salvo of a Holocaust denial seminar. I imagine Q24 and BRLD won't see the problem in this jump of logic but hopefully other readers will see the implicit nature of their attitude. BR, all that list of stuff you posted two posts ago shows is your own emotional reaction to discussions whilst your automatic dismissal of the things you cite shows how you are unprepared to accept that their might be a bit of truth in some of those points.

Namely this one: ''The whole world has opinions against Israel because it's just a natural fact to hate and persecute Jews since it's been happening for thousands of years.'' Now I'm not saying this is entirely true, but when I was talking about Holocaust psychology this is exactly the kind of attitude that mass genocides serve to create, so not true but understandable, whilst seemingly an alien concept to non-Israelis.

All I was saying is that people on this thread need to listen - and not just shout their own opinions at each other without compromise.

I'm going away for a nice break somewhere near Gloucester for a few days... Enjoy screaming off the wall at each other everybody.

Erik, again, I admire your patience.

This is the reason why I've stopped responding to that guy - he's obviously not about debating, ignores the fact, just arrogantly screaming his point and try to bash Israel using whatever means of distortion he has, in a very impolite manner.

Oh and of course the fact that I had some work to do helped as well .

[Wyvernkeeper]

Wow, my weekend away was far nicer than it would have been intermittently checking this thread.

Doesn't look like I missed anything more than the usual back and forth, missed points and shouty shouty purveyors of their own opinions.

[Erikl]

Btw, to address the flaming accusations that Israel is an apartheid state etc., I have to quote Ben Gurion. You see, even before the State of Israel was established, Jewish leaders consciously sought to avoid the situation that prevailed in South Africa. As Ben-Gurion told the Palestinian nationalist Musa Alami back in 1934:

"We do not want to create a situation like that which exists in South Africa, where the whites are the owners and rulers, and the blacks are the workers. If we do not do all kinds of work, easy and hard, skilled and unskilled, if we become merely landlords, then this will not be our homeland."

Today, in Israel, Jews are a majority. But the Palestinian minority are full citizens who enjoy equal rights. Palestinians are represented in the Knesset, our parliament, and have served in the Cabinet, high-level foreign ministry posts (for example - Ambassador to Finland) and on the Supreme Court (the judge of the high court that put our ex-president in jail was a Palestinian). Under apartheid, black South Africans could not vote and were not citizens of the country in which they formed the overwhelming majority. Laws dictated where they could live, work, get medical treatments, study and travel. And, in South Africa, the government killed blacks who protested against its policies. By contrast, Israel allows freedom of movement, assembly and speech. Some of the government's harshest critics are Israeli Palestinians who are members of the Knesset (as evident from another thread I've opened recently).

The situation of Palestinians in the disputed territories is different. The security requirements of Israel, and a violent insurrection in the territories, forces Israel to impose restrictions on Palestinian residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip that are not inside Israel's pre-1967 borders. The Palestinians in the territories, typically, dispute Israel's right to exist whereas blacks, or even the IRA in the UK for that matter, did not seek the destruction of South Africa or the UK, only the apartheid regime and the end of British occupation in Ireland.

If Israel were to give Palestinians full citizenship, it would mean the disputed territories had been annexed. No Israeli government, left wing or hawkish, has been prepared to take that step. Instead, through negotiations, Israel agreed to give the Palestinians increasing authority over their own affairs, and indeed, today, Israel directly control the lives of only 4% of the Palestinians in the West Bank, the rest are under full Palestinian civil rule. It is a consensus among most Israelis that the final settlement of the conflict will allow most Palestinians to become citizens of their own state. The principal obstacle to Palestinian independence is not Israeli acceptance or agreement to give off the land, which is as I said a consensus by virtually all Israelis (except radicals on both sides of the political spectrum), it is the unwillingness of the Palestinian leadership to give up terrorism and agree to live in peace beside the State of Israel. No Palestinian leader can agree 100% that a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza will mean the end of the conflict. No Palestinian leader is willing to relinquish the so called "right of return" of few million Palestinians into Israel (and not into the Palestinian state) - which will mean the obvious destruction of Israel as a Jewish majority state or a democracy. And recently it has also been made clear that no Palestinian leader will agree to acknowledge Israel as the state of the Jewish people, which is of course on per with the fact that they plan on flooding it with millions of Palestinians and expand their state to replace Israel.

And, Despite all their criticism, when asked what governments they admire most back in 2003 (in the middle of the Second Intifada, a time when Israel wasn't very popular among the Palestinians), more than 80% of Palestinians chose Israel because they could see up close the thriving democracy in Israel, and the rights the Palestinian citizens of Israel enjoy there. By contrast, Palstinians placed Arab regimes far down the list, and their own PA at the bottom with only 20% saying they admired the corrupted Arafat regime back in 2003:

"Yet since 1996, Dr. Shikaki has been polling Palestinians about what governments they admire, and every year Israel has been the top performer, at times receiving more than 80 percent approval. The American system has been the next best, followed by the French and then, distantly trailing, the Jordanian and Egyptian.

In its early days, the Palestinian Authority held fourth place, with about 50 percent approval. Now, it is dead last, under 20 percent. Corruption, mismanagement and the stagnation of the Palestinian predicament have turned the culture of criticism against the Palestinian rulers."

SOURCE - NY TIMES.

It seems pro-Palestinians try to be more righteous than the pope , as even the Palestinian laymen have more sense than them.

So yes, you can keep on quoting some more of the very well known anti-Israeli atmosphere in the international community, especially originating in the UN. That's the same organization that condemned Israel and Egypt for signing a peace treaty, the same organization that kept Israel from dismantling the refugee camps after 1967, the same organization that perpetuates the REAL apartheid against Palestinians in the Arab world in the form of the horrible UNRWA sponsored camps.

Edited January 25, 2012 by Erikl

[Yamato]

You know, Wyvernkeeper pointing out the way you present yourself and the hypocrisy that lies within. Also, seeing as it is my right to say what I want, I shall continue to do so regardless of what you want me to say.

And you're the one going on about Zionism and Nazis. It's fair to say that the pot is calling the kettle black.

You know, Wyvernkeeper pointing out the way you present yourself and the hypocrisy that lies within. Also, seeing as it is my right to say what I want, I shall continue to do so regardless of what you want me to say.

wyvernkeeper, like you, has the need to talk about me, and like I've said repeatedly, I really don't care what you think about me personally. Talking about me is the same as impotence. If you can't attack the message, shoot the messenger. Palestinians don't have perfect attitudes either therefore tell them what their rights aren't. I get you peoples' drift.

What I do care about are your false accusations, not your personal opinions. For instance, what hypocrisy do you think I've shown? How many more times will I need to ask this? One more? Ten times more? Just answer the question.

Unlike your strange attempts to stop me, I'm trying mightily to find a single standard that's good enough for everyone and I'm sorry to see you can't handle that. I gave you every opportunity to present a better standard and you couldn't do it. That's what I've repeatedly said about you and it has nothing to do with you personally, but your replies to me after that point have been personal attacks. We can run through all of your replies on this thread again if we must. You couldn't handle my question and so you went on to attack me personally instead. I think that's pathetic.

And you're the one going on about Zionism and Nazis. It's fair to say that the pot is calling the kettle black.

"Going on about"? I think I brought it up in reply once. So now what, it's fair to say I'm a Nazi now? Will you ever shut up about me or is your sole purpose here just to run your mouth about me? I know based on past replies that you think Dr. Norman Finkelstein talking about what is happening to Palestinians on their own land is somehow off topic on this thread but let's pretend that it isn't and let him explain the only connection that Zionists have to Nazis or the Holocaust:

Edited January 25, 2012 by Yamato

[Yamato]

Again, why can't you argue like a normal person? I'm trying to point out that discriminatio against Palestinians isn't unique to Israel and yet here you go saying that I think it is. You said I shouldn't speak for other people and here we have a whole paragraph of you trying to interperet what doesn't need to be interpereted. I made that point because I know the mistreatment of Palestinians extends beyond the borders of Israel.

Seriously, is there a loose connection in that head of yours?

I readily accept that Israel was founded on terrorism. I readily accept that Israel has committed terrorist acts against Palestinians. I know that this is not acceptable. Tell me, where exactly did I say that I supported terrorism perpetrated by Israel? Because as far as I can recall, I haven't.

I agree that discrimination against Palestinians isn't unique to Israel. It's quite common here in the US. But that is not relevant to what I just said.

If uniqueness is what really mattered, then only Israel is colonizing Palestinian land. And that's the topic, it's what this discussion is about. From the video to the first post on this thread, this discussion is dealing with what is happening on Palestinian land. Other people mistreating Palestinians doesn't provide an excuse for anything that Israel is doing, but you keep bringing that up. So what do you expect to be said in return? "Well since "the Arabs" are doing something else, it's okay for Israel to colonize Palestine?" I would need a loose connection to be connecting these thoughts of yours together because you have provided no justification for stealing Palestine away from Palestinians.

Let's refresh your memory here. Long ago, I asked you for a single standard that's good enough for everyone including Palestinians. How many times did I patiently and politely ask you for that? You have utterly failed to provide one. If this was a midterm you'd be doomed to repeat the class because you couldn't even entertain me with hypothetical answers keeping your own subjectivity out of it. I take the same civil liberties that I enjoy as an American and I extend them to all others including Israelis and Palestinians. What is your problem with that? Why can't you handle a single standard for everyone?

[Yamato]

Btw, to address the flaming accusations that Israel is an apartheid state etc.,

Whose flaming accusations? You better not be talking about me and what my accusations are because I will refer you to what I actually said.

[+and-then]

I think the Palestinians are just a group of human pawns. Neglected by their own blood for the sake of expediency to an ongoing war with Israel. They can never win the war but they certainly can fester and kill and cause endless pain for themselves and others. At some point, maybe in a few decades they will finally look around and decide they'd rather live as humans than die as robots to an insane cause. Maybe no...but until then Israel STILL possesses the land. No power on earth will change this.

[MichaelW]

I agree that discrimination against Palestinians isn't unique to Israel. It's quite common here in the US. But that is not relevant to what I just said.

No, you're only making it relevant to what you said so you can launch on another tirade.

If uniqueness is what really mattered, then only Israel is colonizing Palestinian land. And that's the topic, it's what this discussion is about. From the video to the first post on this thread, this discussion is dealing with what is happening on Palestinian land. Other people mistreating Palestinians doesn't provide an excuse for anything that Israel is doing, but you keep bringing that up. So what do you expect to be said in return? "Well since "the Arabs" are doing something else, it's okay for Israel to colonize Palestine?" I would need a loose connection to be connecting these thoughts of yours together because you have provided no justification for stealing Palestine away from Palestinians.

And it was not my intention to justify any land grabs by the Israelis. My intention was to highlight the bias of those who support Palestine. They are so concerned about the treatment of Palestinians in Israel and yet blatantly ignore their plight in other countries where they are treated just as badly, if not worse, than what Israel has been doing.

Let's refresh your memory here. Long ago, I asked you for a single standard that's good enough for everyone including Palestinians. How many times did I patiently and politely ask you for that? You have utterly failed to provide one. If this was a midterm you'd be doomed to repeat the class because you couldn't even entertain me with hypothetical answers keeping your own subjectivity out of it. I take the same civil liberties that I enjoy as an American and I extend them to all others including Israelis and Palestinians. What is your problem with that? Why can't you handle a single standard for everyone?

Let me refresh your memeory. How many times have I politely told you that the discussion isn't about me? Because I recall, quite a few times. Now, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this character defamation tactic of yours, but it isn't working. Not only have you made yourself look a little arrogant but it's only going to make me refuse to answer your question even more. I've made it clear that isn't about me. I made it clear what my intentions were and why I made the point that I did. If you decided to twist your interpretation to make it about me again, then that is your perogative. And I'm not going to hold it against you for that. But I would like to get back to the discussion at hand which isn't about me.

So, why can't you simply argue the facts?

wyvernkeeper, like you, has the need to talk about me, and like I've said repeatedly, I really don't care what you think about me personally. Talking about me is the same as impotence. If you can't attack the message, shoot the messenger. Palestinians don't have perfect attitudes either therefore tell them what their rights aren't. I get you peoples' drift.

Because if you weren't acting the way you are, we wouldn't have an issue with you.

What I do care about are your false accusations, not your personal opinions. For instance, what hypocrisy do you think I've shown? How many more times will I need to ask this? One more? Ten times more? Just answer the question.

Plenty. You said you didn't support Israeli settlers, then you said that their property in Gaza was theirs then saying that you didn't say it at all. Not only that, but you're now going to claim that you haven't called anyone a Zionist or said that Israel was a Zionist state.

Unlike your strange attempts to stop me, I'm trying mightily to find a single standard that's good enough for everyone and I'm sorry to see you can't handle that. I gave you every opportunity to present a better standard and you couldn't do it. That's what I've repeatedly said about you and it has nothing to do with you personally, but your replies to me after that point have been personal attacks. We can run through all of your replies on this thread again if we must. You couldn't handle my question and so you went on to attack me personally instead. I think that's pathetic.

I'm not trying to stop you from accomplishing whatever it is you want to accomplish. What I am doing is trying to steer the ship away from the rocks and get back on course. As I have said numerous times before, it isn't about me. And no matter how much you try to skewer it to suit your point, the fact remains that I was discussing the mistreatment of Palestinians. So, answer me this.

"Going on about"? I think I brought it up in reply once. So now what, it's fair to say I'm a Nazi now? Will you ever shut up about me or is your sole purpose here just to run your mouth about me? I know based on past replies that you think Dr. Norman Finkelstein talking about what is happening to Palestinians on their own land is somehow off topic on this thread but let's pretend that it isn't and let him explain the only connection that Zionists have to Nazis or the Holocaust:

Wrong. You've called Israel a Zionist state numerous times and given the same label to Erikl. And don't deny it. Also, I really couldn't care less what Finkelstein thinks. The use of youtube videos as a desperate attempt to give your point some creedence only highlights the fact that you can't handle it when I make a good point.

Besides, I can call you a Nazi, seeing as you have given me misguided labels in the past. I think it's only fair that I should be able to dish out the medicine that you so desperately need.

[Erikl]

Michael, it saddens me that even you view the word "Zionist" as some sort of an insult ...

Zionism simply means acknowledging the Jewish people's right for self-determination (just like many other nations have that right) in the land of Israel. Nothing less, nothing more.

It seems the Orwellian process of making it into some sort of derogatory word, on par with Nazism, Fascism etc., is complete .

[MichaelW]

Michael, it saddens me that even you view the word "Zionist" as some sort of an insult ...

Zionism simply means acknowledging the Jewish people's right for self-determination (just like many other nations have that right) in the land of Israel. Nothing less, nothing more.

It seems the Orwellian process of making it into some sort of derogatory word, on par with Nazism, Fascism etc., is complete .

It's not saddening. It can become an insult when used in a malicious and vitriolic matter. Such as Yamato and Q24 uses it as an insult when we use it in a different, more civil matter.

There are many names and labels that can be used in more than one way. Terms like fascist and communist are all words that are used in coversation in a malicious matter, yet I could be talking to someone who is a fascist or who is a communist because they believe in those ideologies.

[Yamato]

It's not saddening. It can become an insult when used in a malicious and vitriolic matter. Such as Yamato and Q24 uses it as an insult when we use it in a different, more civil matter.

There are many names and labels that can be used in more than one way. Terms like fascist and communist are all words that are used in coversation in a malicious matter, yet I could be talking to someone who is a fascist or who is a communist because they believe in those ideologies.

Believing in the ideology is one thing. Believing in the policies that deny human rights to other people is quite another. It is policy that matters. It is policy that counts. And to call Zionist policy insulting is an understatement.

[MichaelW]

Believing in the ideology is one thing. Believing in the policies that deny human rights to other people is quite another. It is policy that matters. It is policy that counts. And to call Zionist policy insulting is an understatement.

Generally if you believe in an ideology, you support the policies and ideas which are part of that ideology. For instance, communists believe in a revolution of some kind, land redistribution etc. Fascists believe in authortarianism, racial superiority etc. and this is very prevalent in many ultra right-wing groups around the globe. Zionists would generally support the ideas and policies that Zionism expresses, such as the creation or return to a Jewish homeland. I'm not very familiar with Zionism myself, FYI.

My point was, using the terms that refer to followers of any ideology in a malicious and virtiolic manner, which you and others on here have been doing, is classified as insulting, because that was the original intention of the use of that term in the manner that it was used in. That was my point that I made when I replied to Erikl and I've reiterated the point when I replied to you.

[Yamato]

No, you're only making it relevant to what you said so you can launch on another tirade.

And it was not my intention to justify any land grabs by the Israelis. My intention was to highlight the bias of those who support Palestine. They are so concerned about the treatment of Palestinians in Israel and yet blatantly ignore their plight in other countries where they are treated just as badly, if not worse, than what Israel has been doing.

Let me refresh your memeory. How many times have I politely told you that the discussion isn't about me? Because I recall, quite a few times. Now, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this character defamation tactic of yours, but it isn't working. Not only have you made yourself look a little arrogant but it's only going to make me refuse to answer your question even more. I've made it clear that isn't about me. I made it clear what my intentions were and why I made the point that I did. If you decided to twist your interpretation to make it about me again, then that is your perogative. And I'm not going to hold it against you for that. But I would like to get back to the discussion at hand which isn't about me.

So, why can't you simply argue the facts?

Because if you weren't acting the way you are, we wouldn't have an issue with you.

Plenty. You said you didn't support Israeli settlers, then you said that their property in Gaza was theirs then saying that you didn't say it at all. Not only that, but you're now going to claim that you haven't called anyone a Zionist or said that Israel was a Zionist state.

I'm not trying to stop you from accomplishing whatever it is you want to accomplish. What I am doing is trying to steer the ship away from the rocks and get back on course. As I have said numerous times before, it isn't about me. And no matter how much you try to skewer it to suit your point, the fact remains that I was discussing the mistreatment of Palestinians. So, answer me this.

Wrong. You've called Israel a Zionist state numerous times and given the same label to Erikl. And don't deny it. Also, I really couldn't care less what Finkelstein thinks. The use of youtube videos as a desperate attempt to give your point some creedence only highlights the fact that you can't handle it when I make a good point.

Besides, I can call you a Nazi, seeing as you have given me misguided labels in the past. I think it's only fair that I should be able to dish out the medicine that you so desperately need.

No, you're only making it relevant to what you said so you can launch on another tirade.

No that is wrong again, I'm saying it's not relevant to anything I said. You're not responding to what I said. You're changing the subject and talking about something else irrelevant to what is happening in Palestinian territory.

And it was not my intention to justify any land grabs by the Israelis. My intention was to highlight the bias of those who support Palestine. They are so concerned about the treatment of Palestinians in Israel and yet blatantly ignore their plight in other countries where they are treated just as badly, if not worse, than what Israel has been doing.

So land grabs by the Israelis are not justified then. That is progress.

People who support Palestine are biased just like all other people. Pointing out bias in people implies that you're not biased yourself and we're all biased so putting other people down to the exclusion of yourself isn't accomplishing much. I don't see Palestinians being besieged, slaughtered, bombed, machine gunned, or cut off from all economic activity, employment opportunity and nearly all imports and exports anywhere else. But if I did, the difference that matters to this thread would still apply. It's not their land. I haven't initiated what Israelis do in Israel because it's their business. You need to differentiate what we're talking about here correctly.

et me refresh your memeory. How many times have I politely told you that the discussion isn't about me? Because I recall, quite a few times. Now, I don't know what you're trying to accomplish with this character defamation tactic of yours, but it isn't working. Not only have you made yourself look a little arrogant but it's only going to make me refuse to answer your question even more. I've made it clear that isn't about me. I made it clear what my intentions were and why I made the point that I did. If you decided to twist your interpretation to make it about me again, then that is your perogative. And I'm not going to hold it against you for that. But I would like to get back to the discussion at hand which isn't about me.

Asking for a standard that's good enough for all people for what must be the 15th time now isn't talking about you. Here you go again talking about me and how I look. You have utterly failed to provide a standard good enough for Palestinians too, and you must attack me personally because of that failure. I think that's pathetic.

So, why can't you simply argue the facts?

I don't know what your argument is or what facts you think you have. I don't see you able to acknowledge that Palestinians are being deprived of human rights including civil liberties such as the right to self defense and the right to private property to name two. I've asked you repeatedly for a better standard than mine and you've failed to provide one. Forcing your double standards on me was your only response and I can't respect that. Would you like to revisit your double standards here? I don't just claim you demonstrated hypocrisy and then run from the challenge of showing it, I am more than happy and willing to show yours.

Because if you weren't acting the way you are, we wouldn't have an issue with you.

I don't care about your issues with me. This isn't about me. Stop talking about me. You are losing your cool and you're lashing out. I don't care what you think of me. How many times do I have to repeat that before you get it?

Plenty. You said you didn't support Israeli settlers, then you said that their property in Gaza was theirs then saying that you didn't say it at all. Not only that, but you're now going to claim that you haven't called anyone a Zionist or said that Israel was a Zionist state.

That is not hypocrisy, that is true. Where did I ever say that settlers don't have their own property? I never thought that and never will. Settlers didn't buy their homes? They didn't buy their effects? They didn't buy their property? Everything they bought belongs to them. Whatever the extent of those purchases are, we don't know. Unfortunately their property needs to be lifted off of Palestinian land yesterday. Everything I've said about this stands. That is not hypocrisy you just can't understand what property is. It includes land, structures, and effects. When you defend policies that mix those up between countries, you're the one wearing the hypocrisy on your face not me.

I'm not trying to stop you from accomplishing whatever it is you want to accomplish. What I am doing is trying to steer the ship away from the rocks and get back on course. As I have said numerous times before, it isn't about me. And no matter how much you try to skewer it to suit your point, the fact remains that I was discussing the mistreatment of Palestinians. So, answer me this.

You can discuss the mistreatment of Palestinians, that's fine. But from the day you showed up on this thread you were doing anything but. So it's not your course that you want to get back on, it's my course.

Wrong. You've called Israel a Zionist state numerous times and given the same label to Erikl. And don't deny it. Also, I really couldn't care less what Finkelstein thinks. The use of youtube videos as a desperate attempt to give your point some creedence only highlights the fact that you can't handle it when I make a good point.

Of course Israel is a Zionist state. Without Zionism there would be no Israel. Deny that? I'm never going to deny that. I don't know what good point you've made yet and I wish that wasn't true. Zionism has already been defined on this thread; go back and reread the relevant posts because this confusion always circles back around after x number of days goes by and I'm tired of spinning in circles with the feigned amnesia. Not to understate the case, the policies that prop up the "Jewish State" are insidious and the most vile disrespect of the Holocaust's dead on this earth today.

Besides, I can call you a Nazi, seeing as you have given me misguided labels in the past. I think it's only fair that I should be able to dish out the medicine that you so desperately need.

You can call me whatever you want. I couldn't care less. Zionist was defined for our purposes on this thread and it includes those who come here defending Zionist policies. I'm sorry you feel so offended by the word. Many people who support Israel don't consider it an insult at all and they gladly admit that a Zionist is what they are.

[Yamato]

Michael, it saddens me that even you view the word "Zionist" as some sort of an insult ...

Zionism simply means acknowledging the Jewish people's right for self-determination (just like many other nations have that right) in the land of Israel. Nothing less, nothing more.

It seems the Orwellian process of making it into some sort of derogatory word, on par with Nazism, Fascism etc., is complete .

Nazism was wrong on paper because it was bigoted. It was wrong in practice because of its policies. Zionism is wrong for both of these reasons.

Jewish people can have their own self-determination and so can Palestinians. When you learn how to have a single standard you can apply to both people the problems will be solved.

[Artaxerxes]

Duality and separation are inherent and inescapable properties of the physical Universe. Life is one big long lesson in what it means and how it feels to be separate, something the soul can't learn in heaven due to those overwhelming feelings of oneness and connectedness in heaven.

Art

[Yamato]

I think the Palestinians are just a group of human pawns. Neglected by their own blood for the sake of expediency to an ongoing war with Israel. They can never win the war but they certainly can fester and kill and cause endless pain for themselves and others. At some point, maybe in a few decades they will finally look around and decide they'd rather live as humans than die as robots to an insane cause. Maybe no...but until then Israel STILL possesses the land. No power on earth will change this.

"Just human pawns"?

"Neglected by their own blood"? That is an appeal to racism. People who are of like blood should look after one another. That is a Zionist and Nazi idea. That is bigotry. I'm saying that NO, people should look after one another no matter what their physical/ethnic/religious differences are. For instance, I'm no Muslim. I'm no Palestinian. I'm no Arab. I'm no Jew. I'm no Israeli. But I believe in EQUIVALENT STANDARDS FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS. What is your problem with the lack of bigotry?

[Justice please]

"Just human pawns"?

"Neglected by their own blood"? That is an appeal to racism. People who are of like blood should look after one another. That is a Zionist and Nazi idea. That is bigotry. I'm saying that NO, people should look after one another no matter what their physical/ethnic/religious differences are. For instance, I'm no Muslim. I'm no Palestinian. I'm no Arab. I'm no Jew. I'm no Israeli. But I believe in EQUIVALENT STANDARDS FOR ALL OF THESE GROUPS. What is your problem with the lack of bigotry?

Yamato I applaud you for your efforts to help mankind. It angers me to see how these poor Palestinians are being murdered by Israelis who say that God favors them. What will they tell God when they meet Him/Her and that they murdered poor defenseless men,woman and children that He/She created? This is too terrible for words! When the Jews were tortured and murdered by Hitler did they not learn from that horrible experience? Why commit the same act on someone else? This is nothing more then a primal thinking people. We have too many wars because of this primal thinking. Once mankind completely intermarries then maybe there will be no more race wars. GOD HELP US ALL!

Edited January 26, 2012 by Justice please

[Yamato]

Generally if you believe in an ideology, you support the policies and ideas which are part of that ideology. For instance, communists believe in a revolution of some kind, land redistribution etc. Fascists believe in authortarianism, racial superiority etc. and this is very prevalent in many ultra right-wing groups around the globe. Zionists would generally support the ideas and policies that Zionism expresses, such as the creation or return to a Jewish homeland. I'm not very familiar with Zionism myself, FYI.

My point was, using the terms that refer to followers of any ideology in a malicious and virtiolic manner, which you and others on here have been doing, is classified as insulting, because that was the original intention of the use of that term in the manner that it was used in. That was my point that I made when I replied to Erikl and I've reiterated the point when I replied to you.

Zionism believes in ethnoreligious purity, nationalistic fervor, and its policies insult itself. You can't prevent me from using the term Zionist; that is ridiculous. If you think that it's erroneously applied to you, you should explain how that's so. But the convention in my country is simple. If you support an ideology you earn the label that ideology bears. Socialists believe in socialism. Communists believe in communism. Zionists believe in zionism. That's all it takes. Whatever perceived insults that are felt in those labels are not withstanding that convention. If your only evidence that I "insulted" you is that I called you a Zionist, then you're reducing the meaning of the word to an insult, but as we've already covered on prior pages, the encyclopedia has more to say about the word and none of it consists of any "insult".

[Black Red Devil]

Please consider your posts not to be a waste of time here because sharing and viewing posts like yours is what this thread is all about.

Thanks for the compliment but I don't consider my posts to have been a waste of time. Without wanting to sound like I'm teaching you lessons in life, I noticed you've joined UM only recently and what you WILL find as being a monumental waste of time (as well as frustrating and irritating), is the childish behavior by some posters who truly believe that by writing the last post in a debate that their concepts, ideas, beliefs etc. are righteously convincing and they have the upper hand, despite being found out many times that their claims are ridiculously inaccurate or even worse, plumb deceitful lies. I could name easily a dozen of these inaccuracies and lies posted by one particular member alone in this thread, but I've lost my patience and believe he's embarrassed himself enough and lost enough credibility to last a lifetime.

Anyway keep up the good work.

Edited January 26, 2012 by BlackRedLittleDevil

[MichaelW]

No that is wrong again, I'm saying it's not relevant to anything I said. You're not responding to what I said. You're changing the subject and talking about something else irrelevant to what is happening in Palestinian territory.

But it still affects Palestinians nonetheless. This isn't about the territory. It is about Palestinians. If the Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere, then it is relevant to the discussion. As I have said earlier and I will repeat again, mistreatment of Palestinians isn't unique to Israel. If you want the Palestinians to be treated equally, you are going to have to address the issues outside of Israel that they face. This lack of willingness to address the issues outside of Israel shows your true character.

So land grabs by the Israelis are not justified then. That is progress.

I never justified it. I merely stated what the facts were. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were acquire through warfare, were they not?

People who support Palestine are biased just like all other people. Pointing out bias in people implies that you're not biased yourself and we're all biased so putting other people down to the exclusion of yourself isn't accomplishing much. I don't see Palestinians being besieged, slaughtered, bombed, machine gunned, or cut off from all economic activity, employment opportunity and nearly all imports and exports anywhere else. But if I did, the difference that matters to this thread would still apply. It's not their land. I haven't initiated what Israelis do in Israel because it's their business. You need to differentiate what we're talking about here correctly.

This goes to show either you don't know much about the actual conflict, or refuse to accept anything other than your own twisted views on reality. The facts remain that Palestinians are mistreated not only in Israel but elsewhere in the Arab world. Kuwait expelled over 350,000 Palestinians from their country because Yasser Arafat sympathised with Saddam Hussein. Many Arab League states deny Palestinians citizenship, which is required to access even the most basic housing and healthcare services. In Lebanon, as I mentioned earlier, Palestinians are denined the most basic human rights. Here is a list of the rights Palestinians in Lebanon are denied:

These violations are the result of the systematic discrimination and persecution of Palestinian refugees in Lebanon, best illustrated by the following:

• No right to employment or social security:
  
• Palestinian refugees are restricted from working in over 70 professions; they are barred de jure from practicing several professions such as law, medicine, pharmacy, and journalism. Furthermore, only 1% of the Palestinians in Lebanon manage to secure the mandatory work permit required by the Lebanese government, in order to benefit from regular jobs. Palestinians are also prohibited from obtaining social security when they are able to secure a job. [see Appendix I, page iii]
  
• No right of ownership and no right to adequate housing:
  
• Palestinians are restricted from rebuilding or redeveloping refugee camps and are forbidden from owning or inheriting property. [see Appendix I, page iv]
  
• No freedom of expression and no political rights:
  
• Palestinian refugees have no political rights and, for fear of reprisal, they are often afraid to express their opinions. [see Appendix I, page v]
  
• No freedom of association:
  
• Palestinians are not permitted to organize and form associations unless done through a Lebanese citizen. [see Appendix I, page vi]
  
• Restricted freedom of movement:
  
• Palestinians are subjected to regular identity checks at military checkpoints at the entrance and exit of the refugee camps. [see Appendix I, page vi]
  
• Restricted access to public education:
  
• Lebanese schools and universities operate on quota-systems that restrict access to Palestinian refugees; only 20% of the Palestinian refugees who apply are able to have access to Lebanese education.
  
• Limited access to public healthcare:
  
• Public hospitals are largely insufficient, and the majority of the population relies on private hospitals that are too costly for most Palestinians. UNRWA has only been able to provide basic medical services as subsidies for hospitalization have declined due to UNRWA’s financial constraints.
  
• No legal protection & statelessness:
  
• Due to their particular situation as stateless people, Palestinian refugees in Lebanon have been denied virtually every available means of securing their basic rights. UNRWA’s mandate does not provide protection for Palestinian refugees nor can they appeal to the assistance of UNHCR whose mandate specifically exempts Palestinians from its protection.
  
• ·Arbitrary arrest, detention, and harassment:
  
• Palestinians are often victims of arbitrary arrest, detention, and harassment by the state security forces and rival militias in the refugee camps. [see Appendix I, page vi]
  

Asking for a standard that's good enough for all people for what must be the 15th time now isn't talking about you. Here you go again talking about me and how I look. You have utterly failed to provide a standard good enough for Palestinians too, and you must attack me personally because of that failure. I think that's pathetic.

Your insistance on making this issue more personal than it is, is well, pathetic as well. Since when has it been about the moral character of the poster?

I don't know what your argument is or what facts you think you have. I don't see you able to acknowledge that Palestinians are being deprived of human rights including civil liberties such as the right to self defense and the right to private property to name two. I've asked you repeatedly for a better standard than mine and you've failed to provide one. Forcing your double standards on me was your only response and I can't respect that. Would you like to revisit your double standards here? I don't just claim you demonstrated hypocrisy and then run from the challenge of showing it, I am more than happy and willing to show yours.

How is acknowledging that Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere other than Israel double standards? And again, what is with the comparison? Why do you have to constantly remind yourself of your so-called superiority?

I don't care about your issues with me. This isn't about me. Stop talking about me. You are losing your cool and you're lashing out. I don't care what you think of me. How many times do I have to repeat that before you get it?

So why are you making the issue about me? Why are you dishing out the moral vitriol against other posters when you can't take any yourself? Why are you talking bout me and other posters when you don't want them talking about you? It appears is that there are two standards of behaviour: what applies to you and what applies to others. Hey, look! Double standards. Now, who'd have figured that one out?

That is not hypocrisy, that is true. Where did I ever say that settlers don't have their own property? I never thought that and never will. Settlers didn't buy their homes? They didn't buy their effects? They didn't buy their property? Everything they bought belongs to them. Whatever the extent of those purchases are, we don't know. Unfortunately their property needs to be lifted off of Palestinian land yesterday. Everything I've said about this stands. That is not hypocrisy you just can't understand what property is. It includes land, structures, and effects. When you defend policies that mix those up between countries, you're the one wearing the hypocrisy on your face not me.

Silly Yamato. You've just made the same mistake you made last time. How can the land be the property of individual Israelis if it was Palestinian in the first place? Wouldn't that be like buying a car only to find out after you purchase it that it was stolen? Does that mean that even though you brought it, it is still the property of the original owner?

You can discuss the mistreatment of Palestinians, that's fine. But from the day you showed up on this thread you were doing anything but. So it's not your course that you want to get back on, it's my course.

Tough talk. Let's see if you have the cajones to live up to your words. Also, I was discussing the mistreatment of Palestinians, as I pointed out when discussing with BLRD or whatever that other guy is called. But it appears that it doesn't count if it isn't committed by Israelis. Clearly there is something wrong here.

Of course Israel is a Zionist state. Without Zionism there would be no Israel. Deny that? I'm never going to deny that. I don't know what good point you've made yet and I wish that wasn't true. Zionism has already been defined on this thread; go back and reread the relevant posts because this confusion always circles back around after x number of days goes by and I'm tired of spinning in circles with the feigned amnesia. Not to understate the case, the policies that prop up the "Jewish State" are insidious and the most vile disrespect of the Holocaust's dead on this earth today.

Considering this will degenerate into a "what if" scenario, I'm remaining doubtful about your claims that it couldn't exist without Zionism.

You can call me whatever you want. I couldn't care less. Zionist was defined for our purposes on this thread and it includes those who come here defending Zionist policies. I'm sorry you feel so offended by the word. Many people who support Israel don't consider it an insult at all and they gladly admit that a Zionist is what they are.

But I support Israel and I'm not even Jewish. I don't even understand Zionism. But that isn't the point. The point is, if you use it in a malicious manner for the purpose of insulting someone else, then it can be classified as an insult. That is the point that I was making. I can't make it more simpler or blatant than that. And you were using it as an insult. No point trying to sugar coat it because I have proof in your post record that says otherwise.

[Yamato]

Yamato I applaud you for your efforts to help mankind. It angers me to see how these poor Palestinians are being murdered by Israelis who say that God favors them. What will they tell God when they meet Him/Her and that they murdered poor defenseless men,woman and children that He/She created? This is too terrible for words! When the Jews were tortured and murdered by Hitler did they not learn from that horrible experience? Why commit the same act on someone else? This is nothing more then a primal thinking people. We have too many wars because of this primal thinking. Once mankind completely intermarries then maybe there will be no more race wars. GOD HELP US ALL!

Thank you for your kind words. It is a great irony that Jewish Israeli immigrants from Europe of all people are the ones not to learn the lesson of the Holocaust. The lesson wasn't for it to never happen again to Jews, it was for it to never happen again to anyone. I think we should also resist any claims of "religious war" or "clash of civilizations" regardless of who makes them because they're further examples of the same base thinking you've identified.

I don't deserve your kind words either though, because this is only a message board sharing ideas, not an organization with a budget and operations actually helping Palestinians out. I do advocate for such people who truly deserve our praise for their efforts though, like Ken O'Keefe and Huwaida Arraf. One idea I've been flirting with for a few years now is starting a non-profit corporation that seeks to flood Palestinian land with video cameras. Unfortunately, getting past the Israeli cagemasters makes this almost impossible on many levels. The lack of internet infrastructure, the economic blockade, the political obstacles, the endangerment of peoples' lives, the prohibitive costs, the likelihood of success, to name a few. It would unfortunately require the "smuggling" of cameras and memory chips back and forth across the borders as the actions of the governments in these countries protect their secrecy, but I could support any form of non-violent resistance. Seeing how Palestinians are ignored in the US media and how the internet is (still) the great equalizer, I believe there is real merit in documenting Palestine's struggle as much as possible. May our people continue to succeed at resisting attempts by government(s) to censor our freedom of expression online because I think in this late hour, the internet is paramount to Palestine's continuing hope.

A second idea is a non-profit emphasizing solidarity between religions and embracing (or at least tolerating) our differences rather than using them as an excuse to divide us and fight about it. I've been torn as to what kind of organization this would be or what kind of operations it would have. I have a lot of theory I just can't separate it out and apply it in a uniform manner. A word that conveys the spirit nicely:

http://www.olivetbc.net/wp-content/Pictures/coexist.jpg

There is another way this struggle could end and that is via Palestinian surrender to the Greater Israel Project resulting in their annexation and assimilation into the Jewish State. Perhaps today whether or not one can agree to that is the most meaningful difference of all in determining who the Zionists are from who the Zionists aren't.

[Yamato]

But it still affects Palestinians nonetheless. This isn't about the territory. It is about Palestinians. If the Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere, then it is relevant to the discussion. As I have said earlier and I will repeat again, mistreatment of Palestinians isn't unique to Israel. If you want the Palestinians to be treated equally, you are going to have to address the issues outside of Israel that they face. This lack of willingness to address the issues outside of Israel shows your true character.

I never justified it. I merely stated what the facts were. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were acquire through warfare, were they not?

This goes to show either you don't know much about the actual conflict, or refuse to accept anything other than your own twisted views on reality. The facts remain that Palestinians are mistreated not only in Israel but elsewhere in the Arab world. Kuwait expelled over 350,000 Palestinians from their country because Yasser Arafat sympathised with Saddam Hussein. Many Arab League states deny Palestinians citizenship, which is required to access even the most basic housing and healthcare services. In Lebanon, as I mentioned earlier, Palestinians are denined the most basic human rights. Here is a list of the rights Palestinians in Lebanon are denied:

Your insistance on making this issue more personal than it is, is well, pathetic as well. Since when has it been about the moral character of the poster?

How is acknowledging that Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere other than Israel double standards? And again, what is with the comparison? Why do you have to constantly remind yourself of your so-called superiority?

So why are you making the issue about me? Why are you dishing out the moral vitriol against other posters when you can't take any yourself? Why are you talking bout me and other posters when you don't want them talking about you? It appears is that there are two standards of behaviour: what applies to you and what applies to others. Hey, look! Double standards. Now, who'd have figured that one out?

Silly Yamato. You've just made the same mistake you made last time. How can the land be the property of individual Israelis if it was Palestinian in the first place? Wouldn't that be like buying a car only to find out after you purchase it that it was stolen? Does that mean that even though you brought it, it is still the property of the original owner?

Tough talk. Let's see if you have the cajones to live up to your words. Also, I was discussing the mistreatment of Palestinians, as I pointed out when discussing with BLRD or whatever that other guy is called. But it appears that it doesn't count if it isn't committed by Israelis. Clearly there is something wrong here.

Considering this will degenerate into a "what if" scenario, I'm remaining doubtful about your claims that it couldn't exist without Zionism.

But I support Israel and I'm not even Jewish. I don't even understand Zionism. But that isn't the point. The point is, if you use it in a malicious manner for the purpose of insulting someone else, then it can be classified as an insult. That is the point that I was making. I can't make it more simpler or blatant than that. And you were using it as an insult. No point trying to sugar coat it because I have proof in your post record that says otherwise.

But it still affects Palestinians nonetheless. This isn't about the territory. It is about Palestinians. If the Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere, then it is relevant to the discussion. As I have said earlier and I will repeat again, mistreatment of Palestinians isn't unique to Israel. If you want the Palestinians to be treated equally, you are going to have to address the issues outside of Israel that they face. This lack of willingness to address the issues outside of Israel shows your true character.

What is unique to Israel is what Israel is doing on Palestinian land. If Palestinians were allowed to return to their own country in the first place, none of these other issues you want to talk about would be happening. So that is yet another reason not to support Israeli policy.

I never justified it. I merely stated what the facts were. The West Bank and Gaza Strip were acquire through warfare, were they not?

Now "you never justified it" and the next sentence out of your mouth is asking me about acquiring something through war? If acquiring something through war doesn't justify it, and nothing else you've said here from the very beginning justifies it, then how about agreeing with me that it's not justified?

This goes to show either you don't know much about the actual conflict, or refuse to accept anything other than your own twisted views on reality. The facts remain that Palestinians are mistreated not only in Israel but elsewhere in the Arab world. Kuwait expelled over 350,000 Palestinians from their country because Yasser Arafat sympathised with Saddam Hussein. Many Arab League states deny Palestinians citizenship, which is required to access even the most basic housing and healthcare services. In Lebanon, as I mentioned earlier, Palestinians are denined the most basic human rights. Here is a list of the rights Palestinians in Lebanon are denied:

The fact that Palestinians are present in any of these other countries in the first place is a direct result of the Zionist policies that you can't stop defending. I support Right of Return which would eliminate Palestinian mistreatment in all of these other places. It's Israel who pushed the refugees out with machine guns and brutal force. How convenient of you to come here and serve the problems caused by that conflict as more clueless spin that I don't understand the conflict.

Since when has it been about the moral character of the poster?

Since the day the policies you came here defending became immoral.

How is acknowledging that Palestinians are mistreated elsewhere other than Israel double standards? And again, what is with the comparison? Why do you have to constantly remind yourself of your so-called superiority?

It isn't. But go through the pages of this thread and read them. Your double standards are all over the place. I'm not superior, but I do have principle in how people should be treated. And you can't stand that fact. You have a disturbing mental need to attack me for daring to apply principle to Palestinians and I'm sorry but that is pathetic beyond the pale.

Silly Yamato. You've just made the same mistake you made last time. How can the land be the property of individual Israelis if it was Palestinian in the first place? Wouldn't that be like buying a car only to find out after you purchase it that it was stolen? Does that mean that even though you brought it, it is still the property of the original owner?

I didn't say that the land is the property of Israelis. I never said that. Never thought that. The land is Palestinian; put a dot on it. You're putting words in my mouth and I consider you a liar for it.

Considering this will degenerate into a "what if" scenario, I'm remaining doubtful about your claims that it couldn't exist without Zionism.

Okay?

But I support Israel and I'm not even Jewish. I don't even understand Zionism. But that isn't the point. The point is, if you use it in a malicious manner for the purpose of insulting someone else, then it can be classified as an insult. That is the point that I was making. I can't make it more simpler or blatant than that. And you were using it as an insult. No point trying to sugar coat it because I have proof in your post record that says otherwise.

After your deliberate obfuscation and feigned sensitivity to being exposed as someone having no standards for the treatment of all people, I am not surprised you feel insulted from getting exposed, but you only insult yourself sir.

[Erikl]

Nazism was wrong on paper because it was bigoted. It was wrong in practice because of its policies. Zionism is wrong for both of these reasons.

Yamato, I'm considering a complaint to the mod about your labelling Zionism as being the same as Nazism (or on the same moral parity). However, I rather combat with your bigot ideas here than get this thread closed because of your stupidity and ignorance, as it's quite obvious from this page alone what is your true goal:

Claiming Zionism is on the same moral parity as Nazism, and few posts ago claiming that "Of course Israel is a Zionist state. Without Zionism there would be no Israel.", mean only one thing: that in your mind, the only solution for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the same as has been applied to Nazism - the world needs to get rid of Israel. No matter how much you try to whitewash your language, and no matter how much your like-minded members of this board will try to make it as if I somehow twisted what you said - that's right on the spot the only rational end result of your line of thinking.

Zionism believes in ethnoreligious purity, nationalistic fervor, and its policies insult itself

Obviously, you have no idea what Zionism is, which begs the question of what do you know about the conflict anyhow. I find this to be a common trait for most pro-Palestinian westerners.