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Yamato

Who are Palestinians?

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Leonardo

Pretty good thanks. Back to topic Why does Israel fear more of Palestine than say like Iran?

That is a very good question.

My opinion is that Israel fears the granting of a sovereign Palestinian State because that would weaken their claims over other issues regarding annexed land, etc. Thus, allowing nationhood for Palestinians could lead to a swathe of strengthened claims in the West Bank, the Golan Heights, etc. In addition, there would be increased international pressure to settle those claims - owing to the settlement of the Palestinian issue.

So long as no one claim is settled, then Israel can baulk them all.

Edited by Leonardo

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ExpandMyMind

It was a well thought out and accurate statement,

It was a completely ridiculous statement - and definitely not accurate. In fact, by definition it was a racist statement that lumped an entire people together as a means to discredit and de-legitimise the resistance.

and only disliked by a certain section of society because it's true and would hold no gravitas and annoy the likes of you if otherwise,

Unfortunately, it isn't even understood by most. The likes of yourself simply grab hold of this statement and use it to support your already biased views on the subject. Biased views that you have been indoctrinated by through hours and hours of pro Israel/anti-Palestine news coverage of "terrorists".

Palestinians use their children as human shields,

Completely unfounded and this part of your post completely backs up my statement directly above. There has never been any proof of any such thing regarding the Palestinians, other than the extremely weak and debunked propaganda campaign carried out by Israel and fuurther propagated by almost every western, mainstream news organisation.

And, in fact, Israel has been found to have used Palestinians as human shields, according to numerous human rights reports (which I have read with my own eyes). The same human rights reports that exonerate the likes of Hamas from doing so.

dress their babies as suicide bomber

Unbelievable how easily you have bought into this nonsensical drivel. And what does it matter now anyway, even if they had? When did the last suicide bomb go off, hetro?

And how would a select few represent the entire Palestinians people? This is simply more of the same discriminative crap that is always used to taint an entire people.

and teach them the mantra " Jews are pigs & dogs kill all Jews"

They don't need to be taught. They grow up in a war-zone. When a country is - a people are - occupied, this sort of mentality is simply to be expected. If you are not aware, this view of 'the other side', 'the enemy', is equally as backwards and disgusting amongst many of the Jews living in Israel (in particular the right). The difference is that not all Jews in Israel are accused of having this mentality, yet all Palestinians are.

The double standards employed regarding this entire situation really do make me laugh a times.

so what bit of Golda Meir's statement is wrong?

All of it. And so was all of yours.

Edited by expandmymind

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hetrodoxly

It was a completely ridiculous statement - and definitely not accurate. In fact, by definition it was a racist statement that lumped an entire people together as a means to discredit and de-legitimise the resistance.

Unfortunately, it isn't even understood by most. The likes of yourself simply grab hold of this statement and use it to support your already biased views on the subject. Biased views that you have been indoctrinated by through hours and hours of pro Israel/anti-Palestine news coverage of "terrorists".

Completely unfounded and this part of your post completely backs up my statement directly above. There has never been any proof of any such thing regarding the Palestinians, other than the extremely weak and debunked propaganda campaign carried out by Israel and fuurther propagated by almost every western, mainstream news organisation.

And, in fact, Israel has been found to have used Palestinians as human shields, according to numerous human rights reports (which I have read with my own eyes). The same human rights reports that exonerate the likes of Hamas from doing so.

Unbelievable how easily you have bought into this nonsensical drivel. And what does it matter now anyway, even if they had? When did the last suicide bomb go off, hetro?

And how would a select few represent the entire Palestinians people? This is simply more of the same discriminative crap that is always used to taint an entire people.

They don't need to be taught. They grow up in a war-zone. When a country is - a people are - occupied, this sort of mentality is simply to be expected. If you are not aware, this view of 'the other side', 'the enemy', is equally as backwards and disgusting amongst many of the Jews living in Israel (in particular the right). The difference is that not all Jews in Israel are accused of having this mentality, yet all Palestinians are.

The double standards employed regarding this entire situation really do make me laugh a times.

All of it. And so was all of yours.

All nonsense by someone who is incapable of seeing both side, we get Palestinians are wonderful Jews are bad every day take the blinkers off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&feature=related

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The Living Ghost Story
U.S. Military Aid and the Israel/Palestine Conflict

‘The Cost of Israel to the American People’ Booklet

The U.S. is providing Israel with at least $8.2 million each day* in military aid and is giving the Palestinians $0** in military aid during Fiscal Year 2011.

Daily U.S. Military Aid to Israel

and the Palestinians, FY2009

“Since the October War in 1973, Washington has provided Israel with a level of support dwarfing the amounts provided to any other state. It has been the largest annual recipient of direct U.S. economic and military assistance since 1976 and the largest total recipient since World War ll. Total direct U.S. aid to Israel amounts to well over $140 billion in 2003 dollars. Israel receives about $3 billion in direct foreign assistance each year, which is roughly one-fifth of America's entire foreign aid budget. In per capita terms, the United States gives each Israeli a direct subsidy worth about $500 per year. This largesse is especially striking when one realizes that Israel is now a wealthy industrial state with a per capita income roughly equal to South Korea or Spain.”

- John J. Mearsheimer and Stephen M. Walt

"The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy"

* The source for US military aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2011 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated September 16, 2010. According to this report, the Obama Administration requested $3 billion in Foreign Military Financing (FMF) for Israel for the fiscal year 2011.

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has increased military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2012, we will be sending Israel $3.09 billion a year (or an average of $8.5 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.2% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use approximately 25% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “Between 2001 an 2008, it was the 7th largest arms supplier to the world with sales worth a total of 9.9 billion.”

In addition to military aid, the United States continues to provide Israel with additional aid and benefits. The numbers are not yet available for FY2009, but are likely to be significant.

By all accounts the United States has given more money to Israel than to any other country. The Congressional Research Service’s conservative estimate of total cumulative US aid to Israel (not adjusted for inflation) from 1949 through 2010 is $109.001 billion.

A November 2008 Washington Report article “A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: $114 Billion,” by Shirl McArthur, puts the cumulative total even higher.

According to McArthur, “[T]he indirect or consequential costs to the American taxpayer as a result of Washington’s blind support for Israel exceed by many times the amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel. Some of these ‘indirect or consequential’ costs would include the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the Arab oil embargo and consequent soaring oil prices as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the 1973 war, and the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria. (For a discussion of these larger costs, see ‘The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion,’ by the late Thomas R. Stauffer, June 2003 Washington Report, p. 20.)”

** The source for US aid to the Palestinians during Fiscal Year 2009 is the Congressional Research Service's Report “U.S. Foreign Aid to the Palestinians”, written by Jim Zanotti, Analyst in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated August 12, 2010. According to the report the U.S. has never provided Palestinians with military aid (although we have provided Palestinians with aid for policing their own people as well as with humanitarian and development assistance).

The U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) has provided the Palestinian people with some indirect economic assistance through funds distributed to U.S.-based NGOs operating in the West Bank and Gaza. According to the CRS report, "Funds are allocated in this program for projects in sectors such as humanitarian assistance, economic development, democratic reform, improving water access and other infrastructure, health care, education, and vocational training." The program is subject to a vetting process and to yearly audits...

In addition, some funding has occasionally been provided directly to the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority (PA) in an attempt to strengthen it against competing political parties (particularly Hamas) and for use in policing the Palestinian people. Such funds are usually only authorized once Congress has received proof that they will be used for "non-lethal assistance."

The United States also provides funding to the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA), "which provides food, shelter, medical care, and education for many of the original refugees from the 1947-1949 Arab-Israeli war and their families—now comprising approximately 4.8 million Palestinians in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, the West Bank, and Gaza." (Learn more about Palestinian refugees.)

$400.4 million have been appropriated for economic aid to the Palestinians and $100 million for support of PA police training, etc. for FY2010. The U.S. also provided just over $61.5 million (as of February 13, 2009) in emergency humanitarian aid through USAID, UNRWA, and the International Committee of the Red Cross following Israel's assault on Gaza.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html

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Knight Of Shadows

hetrodoxly hey there

who on earth told you palestinians teach their kids that jews are pigs etc etc so on with those stupid baseless claims ??!!

it's taught to all children in arabic countries .. israel is enemey .. and invader .. who taken part of our lands and keep treating our palestine cousins with disdain and strip them from their rights .. lands .. and some times their lives too yeah now we learn that

but there was nothing teaching us about " Jews " you outta get your points straight and clear

our view on israel as enemy is based on facts that they occupy parts of our lands and kill palestinians

but jews .. are relgious concept so when you claim we teach our children jews are pigs among other things you accuse us of being racists :P

maybe you don't know the different between these two concepts do you ?

jew is a religious concept to define jewish religion which some of them lives among arabs and muslims peaceful with same rights and no one bothers them but israel is different matter .. it's political matter not regilious matter .. you really should get better and clear view on the subject

beside if anything violence come up to memory is why settlers carry guns and raid palestinians at their mosques and such actions

and what goes on about what you said letting their children wear bomb belts and such ... maybe you're taking this very litarly

it's more symbolic that those kids when they're gonna grow up they're gonna be martyers by defending their country , rights , and home

you don't really think they will send those kids on suicidal missions do you ? if you do then we might have bigger problem that israel-palestine conflict .. seriously ! :lol:

how come the world consider american soliders " no offense " who go to iraq or afganstan and die there heros and martyers

while they consider palestinians who die in their home land or in the wreck of their old house " criminals or terrorists "

isn't that seem like .. double standards to you ? coz it surely does look that way to me .. and to any sane person ;)

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Knight Of Shadows

Pretty good thanks. Back to topic Why does Israel fear more of Palestine than say like Iran?

it's easy .. iran has been ally to israel and usa " in secret " of course

iran has ambitions of more control over middle east .. as part of their political project

iran helped usa during invasion on iraq and iran now totally control iraq and i mean " Totally "

and iran always use dirty method of trying to get control over a country and that's the minority issue

pick few people from certian minority religion .. fill their heads with lies that iran could protect them finance them and so on

and so on .. they get those people to do their bidding .. and as you could clearly see now iraq is under the " Shia " control

which are loyal to iran .. now back to the matter why israel does not fear iran as much as they fear palestinians

well i think it's simple iran and israel both are willing to divide control over middle east and that's what's happening

now why they bug iran about their nuclear plans .. it's obvious iran is treachrous ally .. they won't let it become too powerful

and why at the same time allow country like saudia arabia to have nuclear powers for peaceful project .. well saudia lack the ambitions

that iran has .. it's more peaceful country which finds control without the need for military power

bottom line is .. iran and israel are at the moment best friends .. but at some point if they reached to a level where they will struggle

for control they might snap at each other ..

palestinians at the other hands have no such ambitions .. their only goal is to free their country which makes them a threat to israel

you see if israel and iran had disagreement .. israel can throw a bone to iran .. and it's settled

but israel and palestinians matter cannot be settled unless they give palestinians full rights and back to 48 borderline

and obviously israel is unwilling to do that

and trust me am speaking as person living in country under iran influence .. and it's not pretty

hopefully it'll be over soon .. and when it is .. i'll remind you we're gonna crash and burn their embassy :P

and bring it down on their heads :D

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and then

These people neither possessed or even laid claim to the land until the "hated Jew" took it to make it prosper. Any one of you who disparage Israel are being intellectually dishonest since you would behave much the same as they if someone were trying to kill your family and take your land.

The argument will be resolved when one side has been obliterated. I believe that ultimately, after MUCH bloodshed, Israel will continue to possess the land. How interesting that such a small globally insignificant tract of land should be the focus of all hate in the world...

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and then

it's easy .. iran has been ally to israel and usa " in secret " of course

iran has ambitions of more control over middle east .. as part of their political project

iran helped usa during invasion on iraq and iran now totally control iraq and i mean " Totally "

and iran always use dirty method of trying to get control over a country and that's the minority issue

pick few people from certian minority religion .. fill their heads with lies that iran could protect them finance them and so on

and so on .. they get those people to do their bidding .. and as you could clearly see now iraq is under the " Shia " control

which are loyal to iran .. now back to the matter why israel does not fear iran as much as they fear palestinians

well i think it's simple iran and israel both are willing to divide control over middle east and that's what's happening

now why they bug iran about their nuclear plans .. it's obvious iran is treachrous ally .. they won't let it become too powerful

and why at the same time allow country like saudia arabia to have nuclear powers for peaceful project .. well saudia lack the ambitions

that iran has .. it's more peaceful country which finds control without the need for military power

bottom line is .. iran and israel are at the moment best friends .. but at some point if they reached to a level where they will struggle

for control they might snap at each other ..

palestinians at the other hands have no such ambitions .. their only goal is to free their country which makes them a threat to israel

you see if israel and iran had disagreement .. israel can throw a bone to iran .. and it's settled

but israel and palestinians matter cannot be settled unless they give palestinians full rights and back to 48 borderline

and obviously israel is unwilling to do that

and trust me am speaking as person living in country under iran influence .. and it's not pretty

hopefully it'll be over soon .. and when it is .. i'll remind you we're gonna crash and burn their embassy :P

and bring it down on their heads :D

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and then

You should probably read Isaiah 17 before laughing about crashing and burning another nation's embassy. Good luck with that whole "ruinous heap" thing...

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Knight Of Shadows

actually that comment wasn't about israel .. we don't have embassy for them here

it was about iran ... they're sending men and weapons and by doing that they share responsability with the current goverment

in killing civilians in the recent events here so there's no hatred in the subject you've got it wrong that comment was about different

issue as part of the question erix asked about iran

perhaps you should read the bible that said " thou shall not kill " :P

what would you say about them killing us in our own country eh ? am no holy man but i know right from wrong .. do you ?

beside you've picked the last comment from my whole post that refer to an entirely different matter perhaps you should at least

comment on the main issue so i could stay on track of topic and not post like this a whole post on whole different issue

and yes .. we still gonna bring down the embassy on their head when it's done :P

it's the least of justice for what they have done i'll remind you here on this forum when this happens ;)

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Yamato

It was a well thought out and accurate statement, and only disliked by a certain section of society because it's true and would hold no gravitas and annoy the likes of you if otherwise, Palestinians use their children as human shields, dress their babies as suicide bomber and teach them the mantra " Jews are pigs & dogs kill all Jews" so what bit of Golda Meir's statement is wrong?

So just find the ugliest example of what some individuals did (according to who?) and use that to smear an entire population of people. How quaint.

What part isn't wrong? First of all, the part about the lack of love for their children. Somehow I have a feeling if you loved your children and were putting up with less than a hundredth of what Palestinians were (some bureaucracy with the nerve to subject YOUR children to these policies for 72 hours a year) you'd wind up hating too. What kind of a person wouldn't hate oppression? An oppressor. That's it. And forget 72 hours, try that out on me for five seconds.

Secondly, I just got done specifying why she was wrong, because the submission to oppression isn't a sign that you love your children, it's a cowardly sign that you don't.

Thirdly, if you think someone's rhetoric makes the world go 'round might I suggest Barack Obama. As for the pigs and dogs and blah de blah, Israeli leaders have said the same about Palestinians. I can reverse her words and serve them right back and they'd be just as accurate to me as hers somehow are to you. And that's presuming you can even quote Palestinian leaders which I won't give the benefit of the doubt that you can. So knowing basic facts about the history of the place might allow you to understand the gross inaccuracy of her statement, thinking she has a clue about "the Arabs" let alone the love of their children. Which leads me to question who "us" is? Is she referring to Jews, in which case doing some homework would teach you that Arabs and Jews lived peacefully together before the activity I'm talking about in the original post started occurring? Or is she referring to "us", the Israelis, which implies that they hate those of another nation for what they're doing to them?

Fourthly, she's wrong because she's engaging in group-think. Let's pay attention to these groups and the differences between them? That doesn't even begin to address the policy. That lends itself to bigotry and a slew of people on both sides acting like bigots and feeling and acting like those on the other side are also bigots. So why lower yourself? What will that accomplish? There's only one possible answer that I can think of. It will keep the madness going. And thus far you don't even have two words to rub together in agreement that oppression is wrong. You're only here to justify the oppressors from the look of it.

As for your comment, are Palestinians being ethnically cleansed because we presume a few of them used their children as human shields now? Is that what needed to change to stop Israel's policies, to erase the inhumanity and not the Palestinians? Because that's one I haven't heard.

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Yamato

All nonsense by someone who is incapable of seeing both side, we get Palestinians are wonderful Jews are bad every day take the blinkers off.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjbJnZUJTYU&feature=related

All fabulous reasons to end the oppression now. If Americans were putting up with an infinitesimal piece of what Palestinians are, there would be some shooting going on. We don't have all these guns for nothing.

Edit: And just who signed the Palestinians up for pacifism? Let me know because I wasn't made aware of this.

Edited by Yamato

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Yamato

it's nice to meet you too dude the pleasure all mine and thanks for your sympathy with my country

to tell the truth it's becoming more and more clear that usa is more forced than willingly helping israel

like i said earlier you know .. perhpaps know even better than me that israel control usa fianancly speaking

now that explains why before elections or re-elections you see the american president kissing the israelis asses

and making ringing speeches about how will they support israel and now to a level that the new candidate slammed the world

by his criticize and accused palestinians to be " invented " as a attempt to presuade the israelies " to allow " him to be president

and i guess he's on the top of other candidate i guess right ?

it's more that usa is forced to help israel than willing to help them due to the fact that they control the main finance sources

now everyone knows am against usa waging wars for oil around the world and such but there's other ways for getting rich

and good country rather than waging wars .. take japan for example a country that depends on electronics cars etc etc

but usa seems to want to be " superior in militray auspect " on other nations

for example some one mentioned stop those pakistan terrorists from bombing outside countries in america or such

i wonder why he didn't mention how those terrorists came up and started doing what they're doing

they didn't wake up in the morning suddenly and says : hey ! let's go find some market to bomb ! :D

" of course am against any action to harm civilians no matter the reason "

but those terrorists he speak of were originally tribes between pakistian and afghanstan and usa choppers and aircraft

raised hell on those tribes " belong to talibian " during their " invasion " or afghanstan

afghantstan is countries with people who do resistance for a living .. it's their live there was many countries tried to occupy them

but these people just can't live with invaders now did he nag about usa attacking those people at home ? no

he just nag about the violent reaction taken by those people against countries contrbuted in their massacare with usa

anyway that's not the topic at hand but i just wanted to clear why people never wonder why those people do what they do

just try to trap any animal in corner to hurt it .. and normally he'll try to fight back and hurt you anyway .. that's normal

now back to palestine you see i've got very high hopes for the coming years for palestine and you may ask why

the reason is the next : now in this certain time arabic countries going through changes

now the people no longer can be ruled by force by so called presidents and kings the people rule them self and represented seriously

by their coming goverments unlike this temporary time ... and when the people are free to interact in their outside policy

let's be honest now all arabs aren't really fan of israel killing their palestinians brothers :lol:

egypt .. tunisia .. and lybia and now my country in the future even iraq won't settle for their current rule in fact

some voice started to say malki rule in iraq is solitary and not democratic .. and so on with other arabic countries on the way

and israel lost vital alley .. " turkey " due to their stubborness for not apologizing for masscaring the people on turkey aid ship

if you take deep look on the major situation of the area .. it's not really going well for israel favor

after egypt revolution .. which is still going the first thing their military council said : israel shouldn't expect that they can

keep killing palestinians and egypt won't interfer .. the time of mubark is done "

and soon every new goverment will " RACE " to show their people that their supportive of arabs goal of giving our palestinians brothers

their just and fair rights in their own country ... and which way better than to take measure against israel !

during this time i've seen something i really forgot i never see ..when people in yemen get killed people in lybia protest in their support

when in my country some get killed yemen protest for us and so on goes the list what once kept us apart and thus weak

is the forced rule ... with fake ideals and empty promises now it's go i really thing israel got a tough time ahead

anyway i think i wrote too much time for a smoke :D

sorry for getting out of topic often though

Republicans are hard at work as we speak making Americans believe that Obama doesn't kiss Israel good enough. This is the criticism that actually works in some circles of the partisan Republican establishment.

I agree that Gingrich's comments about Palestinians are a play for money to support his campaign.

I don't share in your optimism in the region for many reasons. I don't trust other governments to have the tools required or interests necessary to impact the Israel/Palestine conflict without violence. I don't trust my own government's actions and this instability and uncertainty from the Arab Spring, though it has many good results that we agree on, also provides reasons for these bureaucrats over here for starting more war. We've already been at war in Libya. We've been bombing, literally, for Al Qaeda. And people say there is no God. But you wouldn't believe how negatively the revolts across N. Africa and elsewhere are painted by people.

I see war on Syria as a distinct possibility in the years ahead, using Assad's violence against his own people as (part of) the excuse. They'll be plenty of other excuses slapped on the wall to see what sticks as there always is. But what we have before us today is exactly what the road to war always looks like. It'll be another quest for "security" and the forces in government who start the war will nefariously connect that to defending our country, as usual. The masses who've been slurping on this slop for so long will fall right into their straight lines and believe it as usual. Some of them will unfortunately be our brave volunteer soldiers who will have to go over there and get injured or die for it. It will be the way to war against Iran without technically warring against Iran. We'll be fighting a proxy war against Iranian influence which we already are but this would only need be another escalation of the same policy.

I think if Iran is attacked from the air, which bureaucrats between Israel and the US are continuously threatening, I see it likely that Israel will have to invade Lebanon to quiet the border skirmishes that would occur as a result. Despite some rhetoric from Egypt after the revolution, I don't see them eager much less capable of attacking Israel in response to this.

And what of the millions of US taxpayer dollars that Mubarak was getting every day? Note how there's no word of that at all and nobody even cares enough to ask. Except for me: I just did.

While it might have been helpful in the overall interest of non-intervention that the US military withdrew from Iraq, I don't see how this relates to the US still influencing Iraq to allow Israeli jets use of Iraqi airspace in airstrikes against Iran. That's something that is carried out by suits across a table, not rifles to heads. Israel already operates special long-range versions of US aircraft but even so, the distance to Iran causes big logistical problems. Airborne refueling would be a likely necessity, especially when we consider the payloads that those aircraft are going to need to be hauling to cause meaningful damage to Iran's nuclear sites. But I think further that if Iran is attacked by Israel, then some manner of invasion by US forces in the "defense" of Israel would easily be applied in the chaotic wake of such an attack. And I hate to tell you, but I can't think of a more easily argued place to land the invasion than the shores of Syria at Al Hamidiyah and Baniyas.

Netanyahu didn't just receive 30 standing ovations from our federal lawmakers for nothing. I feel that your optimism goes too far. And even if a great deal of time passes since the last Syrian that Assad will have killed, that won't matter to the policymakers just like it doesn't matter how much time has passed since the last suicide bomber in Israel doesn't matter to the apartheid colonizers. Oppressors have very long memories when they're busying themselves with their work. Assad might concede to every major demand that Syrians are asking for today and years from now the war-starters will still bring up Assad's brutal crackdowns as an excuse for war. He's marked for good; there is no statute of limitations in international politics. Patterns from the past predict future events and I can't help but to be biased by reality.

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The Living Ghost Story
Israelis and Palestinians Killed in the Current Violence

At least 6,537 Palestinians and 1,092 Israelis

have been killed since September 29, 2000.

killedbyyear-lg.jpg

American news reports repeatedly describe Israeli military attacks against the Palestinian population as “retaliation.” However, when one looks into the chronology of death in this conflict, the reality turns out to be quite different.

Source: B'Tselem, The Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories. (Visit their statistics page, last updated September 30, 2011.)

The numbers cited above include civilians and combatants killed by members of the opposing nationality (and therefore, do not include Palestinians killed by an explosive device that they set or was on their person, Israelis killed in 'friendly fire' incidents, etc.). The numbers also do not include the sizable number of Palestinians who died as a result of inability to reach medical care due to Israeli road closures, curfews, the Israeli closure of border crossing from Gaza, etc.

The figure for Palestinian deaths is extremely conservative, since it is difficult for B'Tselem to report on deaths in the Palestinian territories. The Palestine Red Crescent Society, internationally respected for its statistical rigor, reports significantly higher numbers of Palestinian deaths. We do not doubt the reliability of their data, and only use B'Tselem's more conservative numbers because they collect data on both populations.

In the past we used the statistics provided by Israel’s military for the number of Israelis killed, but they have not updated their statistics page since early in 2006. In addition, there is reason to believe that their numbers may have been somewhat inflated.

Breakdown of Deaths

1. Children Killed: Israeli 125; Palestinian 1,471

2. Civilians* Killed: Israeli 731 B'Tselem; Palestinian 3,535 - 4,226 B'Tselem

3. People killed in the course of a targeted killing: Israeli 1; Palestinian 425 or more B'Tselem

4. People who were the object of a targeted killing: Israeli 1; Palestinian 251 B'Tselem

5. People killed on own land: Israeli 589 (53.8%) B'Tselem; Palestinian 6,468 (98.9%) B'Tselem

6. People killed on others' land: Israeli 506 (46.2%) B'Tselem; Palestinian 72 (1.1%) B'Tselem

* The Palestinian people do not have a military, so the usual classification of civilian is not being used. Instead B'Tselem provides data on the number of Palestinians who did not participate in hostilities, a significantly more stringent qualification than the one used to identify Israeli civilians. We do not know how many of the Israelis listed as civilians participated in the hostilities. Many settlers who illegally have taken over parts of the West Bank (and used to live in parts of the Gaza Strip) are heavily armed and there have been numerous reports of their brutal attacks on their Palestinian neighbors.

Causes of Deaths of Israeli Soldiers 2005

Committed Suicide 30

Illness 14

Accidents 26

Terror Incidents 6

Source: Israeli newspaper Ma’ariv, Oct. 10, 2005, p. 6.

Note: The paper also reported that since 1992, 459 Israeli soldiers have committed suicide.

http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/deaths.html

Edited by Ghost Story

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dreyfoss

IF Israel wasn't a Jewish state nobody would give a damn about the Palestinians. Where were you all when an entire people and their culture was wiped from the face of the Earth in Sri Lanka? Nothing. Nobody said a word about direct intervention when women and children were being shelled and then hunted down like Rats. What about Tibet? Nepal? What about Indonesia where Indigenous people are being hunted down and butchered? or Brazil? Malaysia where ethnic cleansing has almost succeeded in wiping three indigenous groups off the face of the planet? But of course none of those countries are Jewish are they?

You open your diatribe by accusing the Jews of 'ethnic cleansing' - when it is statistical fact that the Palestinian population has grown from just over 800,000 in 1948 to over 3.5 million now. Over a hundred thousand Palestinians died in lebanon when Arafat started a civil war there and he did the same thing in Jordan, Egypt and everywhere else he went.

Why are palestinians held in concentration camps in Lebanon surrounded by lebanese military?

Why do Palestinians who live in Saudi Aarabia or anywhere else in the Middle East get treated like cheap labour and are never granted full residency regardless of how long they live there?

You want a solution to the never ending crisis in Palestine? - then petition the oil producing Middle Eastern nations to cut off the Oil to the Christian west and shut their economies down. - I guarantee you will have the problem solved in 24 hours.

Edited by dreyfoss

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Yamato

IF Israel wasn't a Jewish state nobody would give a damn about the Palestinians. Where were you all when an entire people and their culture was wiped from the face of the Earth in Sri Lanka? Nothing. Nobody said a word about direct intervention when women and children were being shelled and then hunted down like Rats. What about Tibet? Nepal? What about Indonesia where Indigenous people are being hunted down and butchered? or Brazil? Malaysia where ethnic cleansing has almost succeeded in wiping three indigenous groups off the face of the planet? But of course none of those countries are Jewish are they?

You open your diatribe by accusing the Jews of 'ethnic cleansing' - when it is statistical fact that the Palestinian population has grown from just over 800,000 in 1948 to over 3.5 million now. Over a hundred thousand Palestinians died in lebanon when Arafat started a civil war there and he did the same thing in Jordan, Egypt and everywhere else he went.

Why are palestinians held in concentration camps in Lebanon surrounded by lebanese military?

Why do Palestinians who live in Saudi Aarabia or anywhere else in the Middle East get treated like cheap labour and are never granted full residency regardless of how long they live there?

You want a solution to the never ending crisis in Palestine? - then petition the oil producing Middle Eastern nations to cut off the Oil to the Christian west and shut their economies down. - I guarantee you will have the problem solved in 24 hours.

IF Israel wasn't a Jewish state nobody would give a damn about the Palestinians.

I would. Doesn't matter to me if the people doing this are pink, green, purple, blue, atheist, or whatever. It's revulsive anyway.

Where were you all when an entire people and their culture was wiped from the face of the Earth in Sri Lanka?

We weren't seeing our tax money being forcibly taken from us to help pay for it. It wasn't our business to keep propping up, just like the inhumanity in Palestine shouldn't be.

What about Tibet? Nepal? What about Indonesia where Indigenous people are being hunted down and butchered? or Brazil? Malaysia where ethnic cleansing has almost succeeded in wiping three indigenous groups off the face of the planet? But of course none of those countries are Jewish are they?

Are these places receiving US foreign aid so they can continue doing these crimes against humanity? I can't speak for others but I've already made clear on this thread what I think the changes in US policy ought to be toward the topic of discussion. It's to simply abstain politically and economically and at the very least, provide a truly neutral position to this conflict just like we have, and should have, applied to whatever other changes in subject you want to talk about. It's not our government's business to force the results in the internal affairs of other nations. You may stubbornly try to maintain that Israel should be a double standard, but it isn't.

You open your diatribe by accusing the Jews of 'ethnic cleansing' - when it is statistical fact that the Palestinian population has grown from just over 800,000 in 1948 to over 3.5 million now.

Not in the settlements it hasn't. And this population growth that can be observed just about everywhere in the world doesn't include those who were driven out from 1948 onward returning.

Over a hundred thousand Palestinians died in lebanon when Arafat started a civil war there and he did the same thing in Jordan, Egypt and everywhere else he went.

So Arafat justifies Israeli policy now too? Does anything not justify it?

Why are palestinians held in concentration camps in Lebanon surrounded by lebanese military?

Start a new discussion in a new topic and I'll be happy to show up just for you. Why are we giving foreign aid to Israel's neighbors? CUT IT ALL OFF. Problem?

Why do Palestinians who live in Saudi Aarabia or anywhere else in the Middle East get treated like cheap labour and are never granted full residency regardless of how long they live there?

So other examples of mistreatment elsewhere justify Israeli policy? Does anything not justify it?

You want a solution to the never ending crisis in Palestine? - then petition the oil producing Middle Eastern nations to cut off the Oil to the Christian west and shut their economies down. - I guarantee you will have the problem solved in 24 hours.

Now it's the Christians too, huh? What a dizzy mess. I can't influence Middle Eastern nations with a petition over any length of time. That's just another example of interventionism that's the underlying cause of all of these problems in the first place. I can petition my own people just fine. They speak English and have internet access, for starters. This discussion is but a small part of doing exactly that. Not only that but I don't trust your guarantees much less anything else you've claimed here without any documentation to support it.

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Yamato

It's also more than a passing curiosity how suicide bombings which didn't start until 1989 is what's used to defend Golda Meir's comments about "Arab love for their children" made in 1957. Obviously something else that's pre-1957 will be necessary to even attempt to verify the accuracy of her disgusting racist comment.

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Sir Wearer of Hats

Peace will come when the Arabs will love their children more than they hate us.

Would you be so supportive of that statement if it was "peace will come when the Israelis will love their children more then they hate us"?

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hetrodoxly

So just find the ugliest example of what some individuals did (according to who?) and use that to smear an entire population of people. How quaint.

What part isn't wrong? First of all, the part about the lack of love for their children. Somehow I have a feeling if you loved your children and were putting up with less than a hundredth of what Palestinians were (some bureaucracy with the nerve to subject YOUR children to these policies for 72 hours a year) you'd wind up hating too. What kind of a person wouldn't hate oppression? An oppressor. That's it. And forget 72 hours, try that out on me for five seconds.

Secondly, I just got done specifying why she was wrong, because the submission to oppression isn't a sign that you love your children, it's a cowardly sign that you don't.

Thirdly, if you think someone's rhetoric makes the world go 'round might I suggest Barack Obama. As for the pigs and dogs and blah de blah, Israeli leaders have said the same about Palestinians. I can reverse her words and serve them right back and they'd be just as accurate to me as hers somehow are to you. And that's presuming you can even quote Palestinian leaders which I won't give the benefit of the doubt that you can. So knowing basic facts about the history of the place might allow you to understand the gross inaccuracy of her statement, thinking she has a clue about "the Arabs" let alone the love of their children. Which leads me to question who "us" is? Is she referring to Jews, in which case doing some homework would teach you that Arabs and Jews lived peacefully together before the activity I'm talking about in the original post started occurring? Or is she referring to "us", the Israelis, which implies that they hate those of another nation for what they're doing to them?

Fourthly, she's wrong because she's engaging in group-think. Let's pay attention to these groups and the differences between them? That doesn't even begin to address the policy. That lends itself to bigotry and a slew of people on both sides acting like bigots and feeling and acting like those on the other side are also bigots. So why lower yourself? What will that accomplish? There's only one possible answer that I can think of. It will keep the madness going. And thus far you don't even have two words to rub together in agreement that oppression is wrong. You're only here to justify the oppressors from the look of it.

As for your comment, are Palestinians being ethnically cleansed because we presume a few of them used their children as human shields now? Is that what needed to change to stop Israel's policies, to erase the inhumanity and not the Palestinians? Because that's one I haven't heard.

Hyperbole and irrelevant, Golder meir's statement was accurate.

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hetrodoxly

All fabulous reasons to end the oppression now. If Americans were putting up with an infinitesimal piece of what Palestinians are, there would be some shooting going on. We don't have all these guns for nothing.

Edit: And just who signed the Palestinians up for pacifism? Let me know because I wasn't made aware of this.

You erroneously assume i support fanatical Jews.

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Yamato

You erroneously assume i support fanatical Jews.

I erroneously assumed that how? By what I hope was agreeing with you on a fabulous reason to end the oppression in Palestinian lands now?

What "fanatical Jews"? Tell me about these people you don't support and what it has to do with the worst case of human rights deprivation in the world today. Break the Jews up into groups now and pit them against one another and please include what the purpose of that stupidity is while you're at it.

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Yamato

Hyperbole and irrelevant, Golder meir's statement was accurate.

Well it would be splendid if you had dared to venture to explain how that's so when you're asked to, but I see that's too difficult.

Hyperbole irrelevant to what? The purpose of cutting people up into groups so you can justify Israel's policies? Explain to me what I exaggerated because I have no idea what that is.

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hetrodoxly

name='Knight Of Shadows' timestamp='1324343049' post='4149885']

hetrodoxly hey there

who on earth told you palestinians teach their kids that jews are pigs etc etc

so on with those stupid baseless claims ??!!

You really don't know about this? search the net, Palastinian childrens tv is full of it.

it's taught to all children in arabic countries .. israel is enemey .. and

invader .. who taken part of our lands and keep treating our palestine cousins

with disdain and strip them from their rights .. lands .. and some times their

lives too yeah now we learn that

but there was nothing teaching us about "

Jews " you outta get your points straight and clear

You need to see what the rest of the world is being shown.

Did you not see my link showing the 14 year old suicide bomber, it's incredibly sad the poor lad didn't want to die.

To deny the fascist ideology in Palestine is stupid, when The Grand mufti of Jerusalem (Yasser Arafat's uncle) Haj Amin Husseini deserted his Muslim waffen SS troops to avoid being hung in Nuremberg he fled to Palestine taking Nazi officials with him, he held a council of the Muslim brotherhood not on how to make peace with the Jews not on how to make war with the Jews but would it be possible to carry on the extermination of the Jews this ideology lives on in hamas, mien kampf is still a best seller in Palestine.

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hetrodoxly

Would you be so supportive of that statement if it was "peace will come when the Israelis will love their children more then they hate us"?

Yes i would and be just as condemning if they used 14 year old suicide bombers.

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hetrodoxly

I erroneously assumed that how? By what I hope was agreeing with you on a fabulous reason to end the oppression in Palestinian lands now?

What "fanatical Jews"? Tell me about these people you don't support and what it has to do with the worst case of human rights deprivation in the world today. Break the Jews up into groups now and pit them against one another and please include what the purpose of that stupidity is while you're at it.

Jewish prostitutes, drug dealers, butchers, bakers and postmen get on with there lives many who are not political at all and quiet a few who oppose the government's actions, then you have the fanatics who steal land want to suppress palestinians, this becomes very tedious having to explain every post, why don't you do some research and come back when you au fait with the subject.

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