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Yamato

Who are Palestinians?

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Yamato

Good post, i can't see how the conflict can ever be resolved, those who try to separate politics from religion haven't grasped the complexities of the situation on the Israeli side you have those who think they're only occupying a small part of the promised land given them by god, on the Palestinian side you have those who use the words of the Quran to an extent that it's created a cult of kill the Jew.

When neither politics nor religion are adequate to accept the tyranny that you feel compelled to defend, connecting them together in yet another anti-American mindset only swims in the inadequacy.

I can understand how you two accept the status quo and then wind up hopeless. Accomplishing nothing, this Israeli appeasement begs itself for reassessment. It's strange how the post that throws its hands up in the air in moral and intellectual surrender predicting the apocalypse is the "good post". How far down the wrong road we've gone when "good" means bereft of ideas and against the interests of every person alive over there.

It almost smacks of playing games with the blood of others to usher in the 2nd coming of Christ or some such thing. We're sending our missionaries and stacks full of Bibles to Muslims we love to shoot, blow up, and starve to death, maybe we should send a warehouse full of New Testaments to Israel if mixing religion and politics is such a valid pretext for the lousiest of results some of us sound way too willing to accept.

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Knight Of Shadows

Well i'll tell you the content, there's a three year old on tv talking about killing pigs and dogs ie Jews.

There's lots of videos calling Jews every derogatory word you can think of, the main ones being pigs, apes, monkeys and dogs.

You talk of racism, the type coming out of Palestine is the worse i've seen.

remember what we're debating "are Palestinian children being taught to hate Jews" you claim they're not, i've show you video of Palestinian tv showing this to be the case, there's lots of it.

well first you gave me the impression and the words that " muslims and arabs teach their children to hate jews " not just palestinians

now if you told me they teach their children to hate " israel " i'd say ok you're right .. and obvious israel is invaders in their country

they're not gonna make love to them they're gonna hate it .. but you saying to hate " jews "

that means every person from jewish religion and that's not right at all

now if you ask me do i hate israel .. i'll say yes based on their actions against palestinians

do i hate jews ? i'll say no that's different matter .. our struggle with israel is due to their savage acts against palestinians

and it's not coz they're jews

so back to your video about the kid .. i ask you did you know for fact his parents taught him to speak that ?? did you live with him ?

for all we know his parents could be dead killed by israelis forces and most important .. if you knew that's true would you blame him ?

now if you told me he's saying jews .. he's kid :D probably doesn't know the difference he just knows those who ripped his country

are jews ... so he get the impression all jews are israelies :D

for palestinians they may teach thier children to dislike israel .. which is vital if they wanted to keep to exist

otherwise they'll bow down and give up their rights .. these are people you talking about people stripped from their simple rights

and people who lived that and had homes that israel destroyed .. just because the land promised to them by god

so i ask you ... who among these two are using religion as excuse to kill ?? coz when you look the otherway

you'll get another view

now for me it comes down to simply the start who's right .. and who's wrong

from that princiable i build my judgements not from this current judgements

i'd love to see your responses on the ethnic cleansing against palestinains when israel first invaded palestine

do you condem that or not ? if you do .. then what you see is the result of israel violence against these people

and it's just reaction to israel action .. so you should look into the past and what happened to them

before you blame them on the time being

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MichaelW

Do you honestly think that he majority of Arabs hate Israel more than they love their children? Do you believe that they are all willing to send their children to death, as long as it harms Israel? Do you actually believe this complete and utter garbage? Of course you do, as you are just as discriminative as Golda.

Not even a substantial minority can be said to hate Israel more than they love their own children.

That statement is no different from claiming all Jews are tight with their money, or all blacks are criminals, or all Australians are racist. It's ****ing racist to the core.

I wouldn't be surprised of Gold Meir was right on the money with that one. Otherwise if their hatred of Israel wasn't as intense, there wouldn't be any violence there is now. Israel wouldn't have to commit such actions as it did in the past. All you have to see is the bombings and the wars against Israel to know that the hatred is more than simple government disagreements.

What do the resident Arabs have to say?

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Mr.United_Nations

Clearly some people here have been brought up on wrong media websites.

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and then

When neither politics nor religion are adequate to accept the tyranny that you feel compelled to defend, connecting them together in yet another anti-American mindset only swims in the inadequacy.

I can understand how you two accept the status quo and then wind up hopeless. Accomplishing nothing, this Israeli appeasement begs itself for reassessment. It's strange how the post that throws its hands up in the air in moral and intellectual surrender predicting the apocalypse is the "good post". How far down the wrong road we've gone when "good" means bereft of ideas and against the interests of every person alive over there.

It almost smacks of playing games with the blood of others to usher in the 2nd coming of Christ or some such thing. We're sending our missionaries and stacks full of Bibles to Muslims we love to shoot, blow up, and starve to death, maybe we should send a warehouse full of New Testaments to Israel if mixing religion and politics is such a valid pretext for the lousiest of results some of us sound way too willing to accept.

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and then

You decry hopelessness and even make it complicit in the crimes occurring in the region yet you offer no solutions. Do you deny that hatred between muslim and jew is the root of all the issues in the region?

No solution has been found over the decades and apparently non are forthcoming up 'til today...unless you have a newsbrief for us. I don't play games with the blood of others. I am VERY aware of my inadequacies and make no claims to the contrary. I share my opinions freely as I still have a right to do and my opinion of the course of the conflict in the Near East is that when the nations of the world finally decide to impose a solution that removes the people of Israel from land they fully believe to be their own, there will be a war unlike any that have come before. And no one will win.

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Yamato

You decry hopelessness and even make it complicit in the crimes occurring in the region yet you offer no solutions. Do you deny that hatred between muslim and jew is the root of all the issues in the region?

No solution has been found over the decades and apparently non are forthcoming up 'til today...unless you have a newsbrief for us. I don't play games with the blood of others. I am VERY aware of my inadequacies and make no claims to the contrary. I share my opinions freely as I still have a right to do and my opinion of the course of the conflict in the Near East is that when the nations of the world finally decide to impose a solution that removes the people of Israel from land they fully believe to be their own, there will be a war unlike any that have come before. And no one will win.

You're fulfilling your own prophecy, because if humanity was cursed with a universal hopelessness in all things, the world would have infinitely more to worry about than the future of Israel.

I decry hopelessness because it offers no solutions, only a mental block preventing those solutions. If you start out with hopelessness you're never going to solve anything so nobody will look to you for any solutions because you won't have any. Why waste one's time to solve a hopeless case after all? It is a worthless and likely deliberate mentality of people who want to prevent Israel from surrendering what it's stolen (stealing) by absurdly using bigotry or hatred for its actions as the excuse for continuing its bigoted and criminal actions.

I would feel pretty hopeless too if I was that dizzy.

circular-reasoning1.jpg

Of course I deny the nonsense that "hatred between Muslim and Jew is the root of all the issues in the region" because to the extent that is even true it is only a reaction to the bad idea that the UN dumped on the region that destroyed liberty of one ethnic group to the benefit of another. The entire region voted against it but the UN wasn't interested in the region's interests. If the UN tried to pull some similar nonsense on or within the borders of my country, the dumb idea would never even get out of the gate, and rightfully so.

Terroristic bigotry begets bigoted terrorism; discussions should evolve beyond stating the obvious. You're always going to try to spin the issue into a religious war because that's the way you can get away with claiming your hopelessness and get others to believe you. The hopelessness in turn lets you sit on your hands and predict the apocalypse while snipping at those who don't accept your mental block. The tyranny of removing people from their own land, property and resources is the origin of the problem, and so long as that act is continued to be accepted in our collective conscious, some of us will drink the kool aid and view all the other crimes that follow in its wake as acceptable in kind.

Defending Israeli policy requires a daft insolence for liberty, the most anti-American mindset I've ever seen. The solution to so many seemingly hopeless problems, including massive ones staring us in the face here at home, is to change our philosophy on what the role of government ought to be. If you think we're responsible for eternally providing for the welfare of foreigners, then the problem is never going to be solved, and you can stir that hatred in your boiling cauldron all you want for no good effect.

It is a bureaucratic mistake that caused the problem, and so it is a bureaucratic responsibility to end it. It is policy that counts. You'd be surprised how problems would have gotten solved long ago if when the United Nations Security Council voted unanimously in condemnation of Israel, the US didn't show up to veto the thing. Abstinence is but one solution I've proposed on this thread that you've carelessly glossed over to falsely accuse me of having no solutions. Who can't handle abstinence? The person who insists on picking sides and swimming in hate to prop up the status quo.

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Knight Of Shadows

I wouldn't be surprised of Gold Meir was right on the money with that one. Otherwise if their hatred of Israel wasn't as intense, there wouldn't be any violence there is now. Israel wouldn't have to commit such actions as it did in the past. All you have to see is the bombings and the wars against Israel to know that the hatred is more than simple government disagreements.

What do the resident Arabs have to say?

you know it's almost boring here without your posts :D

no one said it simpe disagreement .. it's way bigger

you're talking of past wars against israel us = arabs

the war was to free palestine from invaders .. not a war to erase israel you see details are important ;)

for exmaple wheather it was israel .. or any another country occupying palestine and arab got the force to free it .. we simply would

so weather it's israel .. weather it was france in my country in the past .. british forces or usa

if they invade arabic country we would make wars and attempt to free it

so look at it from this way .. you think if it was another country instead of israel occupying palestine

things wouldn't turn out the way they did ? history proves that

people from all over arabic countries went to palestine to fight british forces .. before israel even existed

what does that tells you ? that it's not about " who " is invading . not their race .. not their religion

it's about freedom of palestine

so no it's not hatred am pretty sure of that but it's not simple disagreement as you call it

it's invasion of an arabic country just think of an invasion against usa .. it's this much important to us

beside we arabs stand together .. it might not be this way in last few years coz of dictators leaders who are interested

in their own profit over the overall good of arabs .. but these times are gone now

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MichaelW

you know it's almost boring here without your posts :D

no one said it simpe disagreement .. it's way bigger

you're talking of past wars against israel us = arabs

the war was to free palestine from invaders .. not a war to erase israel you see details are important ;)

I'm fairly sure that you're glossing over the facts. Egypt was pretty intent on destroying Israel, as were other states.

for exmaple wheather it was israel .. or any another country occupying palestine and arab got the force to free it .. we simply would

so weather it's israel .. weather it was france in my country in the past .. british forces or usa

if they invade arabic country we would make wars and attempt to free it

so look at it from this way .. you think if it was another country instead of israel occupying palestine

things wouldn't turn out the way they did ? history proves that

people from all over arabic countries went to palestine to fight british forces .. before israel even existed

what does that tells you ? that it's not about " who " is invading . not their race .. not their religion

it's about freedom of palestine

So, were the wars and violence against Israel before 1967 about "freeing Palestine"? Because the Palestinian territories before 1967 belonged to Egypt and Jordan.

so no it's not hatred am pretty sure of that but it's not simple disagreement as you call it

it's invasion of an arabic country just think of an invasion against usa .. it's this much important to us

beside we arabs stand together .. it might not be this way in last few years coz of dictators leaders who are interested

in their own profit over the overall good of arabs .. but these times are gone now

You can skirt around the facts all you want and cover it with words such as "freedom". But the fact remains, if there wasn't any sentiments against the Israeli state, there would at least be some form of peace agreement already. But seeing as there is no peace, we can only come to one conclusion.

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Yamato

You can skirt around the facts all you want and cover it with words such as "freedom". But the fact remains, if there wasn't any sentiments against the Israeli state, there would at least be some form of peace agreement already. But seeing as there is no peace, we can only come to one conclusion.

LOL

So now one can't even have a bad sentiment about the Israeli government for there to be peace.

Your "facts" about Egypt and every other change of subject don't excuse Israeli policy. If Israeli policy is indeed racist and thus determined by "the Arabs" then that's another fantastic reason to change the policy.

The intolerance of tyranny is liberty's blood. A fact you will never be able to comprehend.

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MichaelW

LOL

So now one can't even have a bad sentiment about the Israeli government for there to be peace.

Your "facts" about Egypt and every other change of subject don't excuse Israeli policy. If Israeli policy is indeed racist and thus determined by "the Arabs" then that's another fantastic reason to change the policy.

The intolerance of tyranny is liberty's blood. A fact you will never be able to comprehend.

I'd to tell you to do something to yourself using a very small part of your body but that wouldn't be very tactful. Quite simply if Israeli policy (which policy exactly?) is "racist", the please exlpain why Syria remains the only country to not settle for a peace agreement with Israel? Jordan did and it lost territory. Egypt has, but it had what it wants back.

And my facts about Egypt are very true. After all, they weren't exactly the most peaceful state before 1973 now were they?

Look, do me a favour and come back with an argument that I can't dismiss so easily. Because I'd like a proper argument.

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Yamato

I'd to tell you to do something to yourself using a very small part of your body but that wouldn't be very tactful. Quite simply if Israeli policy (which policy exactly?) is "racist", the please exlpain why Syria remains the only country to not settle for a peace agreement with Israel? Jordan did and it lost territory. Egypt has, but it had what it wants back.

And my facts about Egypt are very true. After all, they weren't exactly the most peaceful state before 1973 now were they?

Look, do me a favour and come back with an argument that I can't dismiss so easily. Because I'd like a proper argument.

A proper argument about what? You've shared your wildly meandering opinions and now somehow think one of the worst examples of human rights deprivation in the world today is justified by Arabs from other countries who happen to be making peace, or not making peace, or otherwise imperfectly existing where they do. I have no idea how that's so, because you haven't bothered to explain how. So there is nothing of substance for you to argue with me about, and unlike you, I don't even wish to argue, let alone listen to your angry insults.

And I'm not sure what argument you think you're dismissing either. You are, however, half way around the world dismissing the civil liberties of people you'll never meet and never know, and that tyrannical exercise on your keyboard will probably never come home to roost under your roof. Maybe you have an entitlement complex for how my tax money is spent in the world? That mistake would be easily solved by all of us agreeing to give freely to whomever we wish rather than being forcibly taken from. For instance, if you would like to give your inheritance to Israeli bureaucrats because that's what you feel is truly important in the world, I wouldn't object. That civil exercise would, once again, require freedom, and to the exclusion of a lot of force control that you couldn't defend anymore because it wouldn't exist. But it does exist, how convenient that must be. So you entered this discussion with the force control politically propped up and excused away for you to falsely assume it confers an argument from me to you.

If you want an argument you'll have to take the responsibility of finding one yourself. You may wish to start a new discussion entitled "Who are Egyptians?" or "Who are Syrians?" but even in that discussion I truly hope you're capable of seeing their people through their governments.

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LittleCasper

wow.....amazing stats that is really illustrates all the discussion.......I think there are not any words can be said after this

THUMPS UP for the good effort ;)

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hetrodoxly

wow.....amazing stats that is really illustrates all the discussion.......I think there are not any words can be said after this

THUMPS UP for the good effort ;)

Come on a lot of these "deaths" are the result of Pallywood.

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and then

These numbers prove the resolve that Israel has to hold the ground. Short of Hezbullah or Hamas getting WMD the ratios will probably always be lopsided. Yet neither faction will even consider negotiations with Israel. It's all or nothing so they get...nothing.

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Mr.United_Nations

Come on a lot of these "deaths" are the result of Pallywood.

You Sir are an utter loony, like that Iranian bloke who said the holocaust never happened.

Israel is becoming a nazi state, and you are willing to support it? you need to vist those Palestinians those families, they wan't their own land back. So Selfish.

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ExpandMyMind

Come on a lot of these "deaths" are the result of Pallywood.

You are claiming an ISRAELI human rights organisation, the most respected and mainstream in the region I might add, has fudged its statistics, one way or another?

The above quote completely nullifies your stated 'objectivity' regarding this subject. You aren't even willing to look at the number of deaths objectively, never mind the subject as a whole.

Lol, I mean "deaths"? Jesus...

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hetrodoxly

You Sir are an utter loony, like that Iranian bloke who said the holocaust never happened.

Israel is becoming a nazi state, and you are willing to support it? you need to vist those Palestinians those families, they wan't their own land back. So Selfish.

Your gullible, and if Israel is becoming a Nazi state they'll be in good company palestine as the largest group of Nazis in the world i support neither your the Nazi supporter.

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ExpandMyMind

These numbers prove the resolve that Israel has to hold the ground. Short of Hezbullah or Hamas getting WMD the ratios will probably always be lopsided. Yet neither faction will even consider negotiations with Israel. It's all or nothing so they get...nothing.

Actually, both sides have offered negotiations and truces, in addition to complete peace based only on existing international law (ie, the '67 borders, as is demanded by international law and resolution after resolution). And this most definitely includes Hamas.

Your statement seems to be a bit silly, if I'm being honest. Hamas I can understand - the propaganda surrounding that 'faction' is overwhelming, so I could not blame you for thinking that they do not want peace - but Fatah have been openly working with Israel, recieving aid from them, as well as negotiating with them for years, in one form or another. How you can think that neither faction will even consider negotiations is beyond me.

And just to correct you: the numbers prove that Israel has been grossly over-armed when compared to the Palestinians. They have tanks, an array of missiles (U.S. built), a trained - expertly trained - military, an air force unmatched by any in the region, U.S. supplied choppers, and a thousand other advantages over the indigenous people of Palestine. It does not prove, as you claim, that Israel has 'resolve'. No doubt in the grand scheme of things the people of that country do, but it has never been the reason they maul the Palestinians. They have never been truly attacked by said Palestinians (who themselves do not even have the ability to do so).

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ExpandMyMind

Your gullible,

Gullible for believing quite modest and indisputable estimates regarding deaths? BT'Selem are actually one of the organisations that have the lowest count of deaths, yet, not only do you dismiss them out of hand, but you also claim someone gullible for believing them? Hetro, your case is dying more and more every time you post.

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hetrodoxly

You are claiming an ISRAELI human rights organisation, the most respected and mainstream in the region I might add, has fudged its statistics, one way or another?

The above quote completely nullifies your stated 'objectivity' regarding this subject. You aren't even willing to look at the number of deaths objectively, never mind the subject as a whole.

Lol, I mean "deaths"? Jesus...

Come on how can you deny Pallywood, dead people falling off stretchers then jumping back on, battle scene where the camera pans around to see hundreds of Palestinians in there Sunday best watching the filming, etc etc.....

unlike you i've taken no side, it's just the fact i'm not gullible, leftwing-Nazi or stupid.

I'm surprised the casualties are so low (i don't trust the figures, that doesn't make me a supporter of the Jews or a Nazi or any-other bla, bla, name you want to call me) considering half of that number were killed in one day on 9/11.

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hetrodoxly

Gullible for believing quite modest and indisputable estimates regarding deaths? BT'Selem are actually one of the organisations that have the lowest count of deaths, yet, not only do you dismiss them out of hand, but you also claim someone gullible for believing them? Hetro, your case is dying more and more every time you post.

No it's not, it gets stronger as i reveal more of the facts and truth.

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ExpandMyMind

I'm surprised the casualties are so low (i don't trust the figures, that doesn't make me a supporter of the Jews or a Nazi or any-other bla, bla, name you want to call me) considering half of that number were killed in one day on 9/11.

I have called you very little of note (if anything at all), yet in his thread you have called me a fascist, a left-wing Nazi and hit me with other ad hominen attacks. I think you are confused.

And I just had to laugh at your Pallywood assertions... Seriously, funny stuff there.

Edited by expandmymind

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Yamato

wow.....amazing stats that is really illustrates all the discussion.......I think there are not any words can be said after this

THUMPS UP for the good effort ;)

Not trying to play Devil's Advocate here, but I'm not sure that body count disparities in 1945 WWII justifies the Imperial Japanese in any way whatsoever. So one must go beyond body counts alone to determine the color of right from wrong. So words ought to be said after that. Deeper questions are forthcoming, such as who are the dead, where did they die, why did they die, how did they die.

But my first point is but a caveat. The far greater point is that the dead do not suffer. It is the living who must suffer the cages they're forced to live in every day thanks to their cagemasters, it is the living who suffer their beloved dead, who suffer the daily denials of life in the lives they're living, this partial and mass murder, that shouldn't be neglected by solely focusing on charts showing disparities in body counts between sides. To think that such a chart is the end-all is missing nearly all of the big picture.

Concepts like rights and freedom are for the living. It's no wonder that the right to life is the central right that all other rights revolve around. As individuals, we have the right to our lives, and it is thanks to no government that our right to life is bestowed; however, it is very often thanks to many governments that our right to life (and the many named and unnamed rights that revolve around it) is denied. Government must be a referee, to protect our rights, to defend our liberty from others who might wish to vanquish it, but never the reverse. Cutting people up into groups and deciding who has rights from who doesn't is madness, it is evil, it is tyranny, and the results are always terrible as many examples throughout history illustrate. The plight of the Palestinians is but one of these.

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MichaelW

A proper argument about what? You've shared your wildly meandering opinions and now somehow think one of the worst examples of human rights deprivation in the world today is justified by Arabs from other countries who happen to be making peace, or not making peace, or otherwise imperfectly existing where they do. I have no idea how that's so, because you haven't bothered to explain how. So there is nothing of substance for you to argue with me about, and unlike you, I don't even wish to argue, let alone listen to your angry insults.

Clearly, you need to watch the news a bit more. The worst examples of human rights deprivation are not being cause by Israel, but by her neighbours against their own people. But of course, 3000 people dead in Syria is nothing because Israel issues airstrike in civilian areas.

And I'm not sure what argument you think you're dismissing either. You are, however, half way around the world dismissing the civil liberties of people you'll never meet and never know, and that tyrannical exercise on your keyboard will probably never come home to roost under your roof. Maybe you have an entitlement complex for how my tax money is spent in the world? That mistake would be easily solved by all of us agreeing to give freely to whomever we wish rather than being forcibly taken from. For instance, if you would like to give your inheritance to Israeli bureaucrats because that's what you feel is truly important in the world, I wouldn't object. That civil exercise would, once again, require freedom, and to the exclusion of a lot of force control that you couldn't defend anymore because it wouldn't exist. But it does exist, how convenient that must be. So you entered this discussion with the force control politically propped up and excused away for you to falsely assume it confers an argument from me to you.

I'm dismissing the BS you seem to be spouting at the moment. Seriously, you need to get that checked. Also, what's with this psuedo-psycological crap?

If you want an argument you'll have to take the responsibility of finding one yourself. You may wish to start a new discussion entitled "Who are Egyptians?" or "Who are Syrians?" but even in that discussion I truly hope you're capable of seeing their people through their governments.

Funnily enough, government policy more often than not in this region, translates to the same attitudes from the people. I can't imagine the majority of Syrians don't support Hezbollah when their government does, or Hamas. You seem to think that their governments aren't reflective of their people, and in some cases, you are right. The Israelis for instance, are not all like Benjamin Netanyahu. The Egyptians weren't like Mubarak.

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