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Yamato

Who are Palestinians?

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meryt-tetisheri

Check the situation of Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, and you'll see the definition of apartheid, racism etc.. And all of this under the supervision of the UN in the form of UNRWA. :blush:

The definition of anti-Palestinian apartheid & racism in Egypt !?! Where exactly are their refugee camps or ghettos; the laws designed to discriminate against them, when did the Egyptian army or people attack their camps...etc.? Egypt has its own problems, mistakes, and mess..but apartheid isn't part of it, as a Copt I would have known!

I do not want to get involved with this thread at all, but please leave Egypt out of it unless what you have to say about it is factual & relevant.

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Erikl

The definition of anti-Palestinian apartheid & racism in Egypt !?! Where exactly are their refugee camps or ghettos; the laws designed to discriminate against them, when did the Egyptian army or people attack their camps...etc.? Egypt has its own problems, mistakes, and mess..but apartheid isn't part of it, as a Copt I would have known!

I do not want to get involved with this thread at all, but please leave Egypt out of it unless what you have to say about it is factual & relevant.

The refugee camps in Gaza were built by the Egyptians - which means the Palestinians were put in camps instead of accepted into Egyptian society. This is why there are little to no Palestinians in Egypt (44,000 compare to more than 300,000 in Syria and more than 400,000 in Lebanon).

Also, with all the money the PA have received in the last 20 years (since 1993), I wonder how come they didn't dismantle the refugee camps. To where did all the billions of dollars go?

One thing is clear - there are no Palestinian refugee camps in Israel - all Palestinians live in normal cities and villages here, and hold Israeli citizenship. How many Palestinians in Lebanon or Syria hold citizenships? how many Gazans had Egyptian citizenship in the 20 years it was part of Egypt (1948-1967)? How many of the 44,000 Palestinian refugees that do live in Egypt have Egyptian citizenship?

The treatment of Palestinians by their Arab brethren is a sham, and is never denounced by the so called pro-Palestinians members of the forum. While they like to prompt the classic "one wrong doesn't justify another wrong", this doesn't hold any ground in this case: the same people, Palestinians, are being treated horribly in countries all over the middle east, by people of exactly the same ethnicity, religion and language, which have no conflict with the Palestinians and so have no security related justification for any of this. More so, there are more than million Palestinians in Israel proper (reminder - the disputed territories were never annexed by any Israeli government and except for very few extremists, no one really thinks they should ever be fully annexed) that enjoy full civil and human rights as Israelis, making any accusation that the policies in the West Bank or Gaza by the Israeli authorities are based on racism moot. However, the only country constantly blamed for racism, ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, allegation that all it's policies or the majority of it's policies in the disputed territories (West Bank/Judea and Samaria, Gaza) are racially motivated and so forth, is Israel, the only country in the region to actually give them normal human rights.

This leads me to one of the following conclusions:

A. The pro-Palestinians do not care about the Palestinians at all, they simply hate Israel and use the subject to bash it. This makes them twice racists - against Arabs (racism of low expectations, meaning they do not expect normative human behaviour from Arabs), and against Jews (if they don't really care about the suffering of the Palestinians then why bash Israel other than hatred?).

B. The pro-Palestinians are fed with wrong information which they never seem to check.

C. Option B leads to another conclusion - the pro-Palestinian folks usually consider themselves to be enlightened and intelligent, liberals, and free thinkers, yet they seem to be 100% conformists when it comes to Israel being evil. They don't bother to think for themselves, just repeat what they heard on the news. While all together they usually blame the pro-Israelis of being conformists/fascists/conservatives and a herd following the dogma dictated by the Israeli government...

Edited by Erikl

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Eldorado

“Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp...” -- Cardinal Renato Martino

Hard to disagree with the above observation.

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Erikl

“Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp...” -- Cardinal Renato Martino

Hard to disagree with the above observation.

Hard to agree with it as well.

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meryt-tetisheri

The refugee camps in Gaza were built by the Egyptians - which means the Palestinians were put in camps instead of accepted into Egyptian society. This is why there are little to no Palestinians in Egypt (44,000 compare to more than 300,000 in Syria and more than 400,000 in Lebanon).

Also, with all the money the PA have received in the last 20 years (since 1993), I wonder how come they didn't dismantle the refugee camps. To where did all the billions of dollars go?

One thing is clear - there are no Palestinian refugee camps in Israel - all Palestinians live in normal cities and villages here, and hold Israeli citizenship. How many Palestinians in Lebanon or Syria hold citizenships? how many Gazans had Egyptian citizenship in the 20 years it was part of Egypt (1948-1967)? How many of the 44,000 Palestinian refugees that do live in Egypt have Egyptian citizenship?

The treatment of Palestinians by their Arab brethren is a sham, and is never denounced by the so called pro-Palestinians members of the forum....

Refugee camps in Gaza were built in 1948 and 1949 by The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) NOT Egypt. According to UNRWA's definition "Palestine refugees are persons whose normal place of residence was Palestine between June 1946 and May 1948, who lost both their homes and means of livelihood as a result of the1948 Arab-Israeli War." Refugees who moved to Gaza were mostly residents of cities and villages in Southern Palestine.

Eight official camps were built to accommodate thousands of Palestinian refugees who fled the crossfire & battles of the war, whether by force or choice. These camps are assisted and supplied by UNRWA:

1948, Beach camp(Shati), 76,109

1949, Bureij, 30,059

1948, Deir el-Balah camp, 20,188

1948, Jabalia(Jabaliya), 103,646

1949, Khan Yunis,60,662

1949, Maghazi, 22,536

1949, Nuseirat,64,233

1949, Rafah camp,90,638

The United Nations General Assembly Resolution 194 'granted Palestinians the right to return to their homeland if they wish to 'live at peace with their neighbors, but Israel refused to allow the vast majority of refugees to return.'

Gaza was never annexed to Egypt. From September 1948 to 1959 The All-Palestine Government (Hukumat 'umum Filistin) was formed with a seat in Gaza for the whole of Palestine,until Nasser dissolved it in 1959. Gaza was there after administered by the Egyptian army. While UNRWA ran the schools in the camps, the health & educational system of the rest of Gaza was provided by the Egyptian government, including scholarships for university education in Egypt.

Israel occupied Gaza from 1967 to 2005, much longer than the Egyptian administration of Gaza, yet while you are lamenting the 'sham', 'apartheid', 'discrimination' of Egypt, you are totally silent about any humanitarian achievement of Israel in Gaza!

"When the Israelis occupied Gaza Strip in 1967 after the Six Day War, Gaza's economy was dominated by its service sector and was heavily dependent on citrus agriculture. Israeli occupation was translated into strict Israeli control of land, water resources,and political dominance. There existed discriminatory restrictions on training and research, limited infrastructure development, a lack of financial support for Palestinians, and severe prohibitions on travel and on exports. These discriminatory policies have resulted in the politcal and economic isolation of the Palestinian population (Homer-Dixon and Kelly 1995). "

http://www1.american.edu/TED/ice/GAZA.HTM

As for granting Palestinians refugees Egyptian citizenship, you must be aware that the 'citizenry decision" was taken in 1948 by the Palestine Arab Higher Committee "By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them."

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/refugees.htm

While resettlement in Arab countries seems to be the humane course of action, it was resisted because it was seen as putting an end to the Palestinian right of return, compensation etc. Let's be realistic here, you(Israel) are not advocating the resettlement of Palestinians in Arab countries solely from a humane compassionate view, but because it would solve a political headache for Israel, and practically obliterate any future Palestinian claims of restitution or compensation. These are also the reasons why Arab governments insisted on their position; that and the loss of a negotiation point, and the unfortunate tendency of Palestinian "authorities" to form a 'state within a state' which always ends up destabilizing the host country.

Maybe for you all 'Arabs' are the same, but the other peoples of the ME are actually aware of their separate cultural identities, history and heritage, and are not willing to be absorbed into their 'brethren neighbors', Egyptians in particular even more so. It is very difficult for anyone to gain Egyptian citizenry,whether Palestinians, Arab, European or even until quite recently, the children of Egyptian women married to foreign men.

To sum it all up, there are no angels in the ME, nor are there demons either, but stupid mistakes were committed by every group, including Israel. There isn't one totally guilt free party in the Middle East, but there are a lot of pretentions, biases, bigotry and trigger-happy hatreds on ALL sides, which is why I do not want to be involved any further in this discussion. I can understand that you are trying to defend your country and your people from accusations of racism etc., but that should not push you to exaggerate and generalize, whether by white washing one group or smearing another.

"Let him who is without sin cast the first stone", and in the ME we are ALL sinners.

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Erikl
Refugee camps in Gaza were built in 1948 and 1949 by The UNRWA (United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East) NOT Egypt

The refugee camps were built while Gaza was under Egyptian control. If the Egyptian government decided to give them citizenship and absorb them into cities in the Sinai desert, there was no need for refugee camps. Many Palestinians in Gaza are from Egyptian origin anyhow, and most of them speak Egyptian Arabic, not the usual Levantine Arabic. And still, no single Refugee camp was built under Israeli control. No single Palestinian was put into a refugee camp in Israel.

As for granting Palestinians refugees Egyptian citizenship, you must be aware that the 'citizenry decision" was taken in 1948 by the Palestine Arab Higher Committee "By the end of January1948, the exodus was so alarming the Palestine Arab Higher Committee asked neighboring Arab countries to refuse visas to these refugees and to seal the borders against them."

Ofcourse, the Palestinian leadership is one of the main reasons for the misfortune of the Palestinians.

These are also the reasons why Arab governments insisted on their position; that and the loss of a negotiation point, and the unfortunate tendency of Palestinian "authorities" to form a 'state within a state' which always ends up destabilizing the host country.

I agree.

Maybe for you all 'Arabs' are the same, but the other peoples of the ME are actually aware of their separate cultural identities, history and heritage, and are not willing to be absorbed into their 'brethren neighbors', Egyptians in particular even more so. It is very difficult for anyone to gain Egyptian citizenry,whether Palestinians, Arab, European or even until quite recently, the children of Egyptian women married to foreign men.

I refer you to this thread, where I had a major fight with a Baathist Syrian on this forum to prove to him just that - that there are many other ethnicities in the Middle East.

But, as a member of the Copt community and the last remaining group in Egypt to hold onto your ancient culture, I'm sure you realize the majority of Egyptians today are Arabized for many generations, have accepted their Arab identity, and the difference between them and a Palestinians would be the difference between a German and an Austrian.

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meryt-tetisheri

The refugee camps were built while Gaza was under Egyptian control. If the Egyptian government decided to give them citizenship and absorb them into cities in the Sinai desert, there was no need for refugee camps. Many Palestinians in Gaza are from Egyptian origin anyhow, and most of them speak Egyptian Arabic, not the usual Levantine Arabic. And still, no single Refugee camp was built under Israeli control. No single Palestinian was put into a refugee camp in Israel.........

But, as a member of the Copt community and the last remaining group in Egypt to hold onto your ancient culture, I'm sure you realize the majority of Egyptians today are Arabized for many generations, have accepted their Arab identity, and the difference between them and a Palestinians would be the difference between a German and an Austrian.

Please check the list in my previous reply in which the dates of the founding of each camp is mentioned. All camps were established between 1948 and 1949.

Seriously Erikl, can you imagine for a moment Nasser granting citizenship to thousands of Palestinians, or Sadat or Hussein, or Hassan…? Raising this point again will only lead to a circular discussion in which each keeps repeating the same point!

As for Sinai, the one thing all Egyptians agree upon is that Sinai is an integral part of Egypt, and has always been "The Land of Hathor, the Lady of Turquoise". The only people to settle there will be Egyptians ! Sinai is Egyptian.

I do not know where did the 'Egyptian origin' of Gaza Palestinians came from, if the majority (300% increase on the original population there) were camp refugees who moved in to Gaza from other parts of Palestine such as Beersheba, Jaffa, Haifa and elsewhere? Egyptians used to hate the idea of moving and settling outside Egypt, until 1970s. There are no historical records of Egyptians moving & settling in Gaza. The use of Egyptian Arabic is no indication of descent, but rather the popularity of Egyptian films, music and TV programs. Nevertheless, Levantine Arabic as spoken in Gaza, Syria, Jordan or Lebanon is generally closer to (but not the same as ) the Egyptian dialect than that spoken in Tunisia, Morocco, or SA for example.

But, as a member of the Copt community and the lastremaining group in Egypt to hold onto your ancient culture, I'm sure yourealize the majority of Egyptians today are Arabized for many generations, haveaccepted their Arab identity, and the difference between them and aPalestinians would be the difference between a German and an Austrian.

Arabized, not Arab; Egypt has always had a large enough population to prevent its being absorbed or genetically engulfed by new-comer groups. Mottos, songs, and aspirations of unity aside, there will always be a difference between the 'ideal' and the 'real'. No 'Arab' population is ready or willing to forsake its cultural heritage and identity and define itself instead only as Arab (except SA). Two years ago a football match caused a lot of 'nationalistic' strife between Algeria and Egypt and could have caused serious damage in the relationship between both peoples. You may use the German / Austrian example if comparing Syrian/ Lebanese, maybe, but this definitely will not apply if you're talking about Tunisian / Sudanese for instance. Ask a citizen of any Arab country if he is an Arab, he will nod in agreement; telling him that there is no difference between him and the people of the neighboring country will definitely upset him. The 'Arab World' shares a dream of unity but will not erase its cultural specificity. Like the EU, there is that which units them: there's one flag, all will sing the "Ode to Joy" anthem.. but good luck to you if you confuse a Frenchman with a Romanian, or a Portuguese with a Greek, let alone a Flemish with a Walloon, Irish and English….etc. Absorption of Palestinians into another Arab country is not a reaslistic solution.

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Erikl

meryt, no I cannot see any of these nationalists giving them citizenship, even though Nasser and Assad were the princes of pan-Arabism at the time, which just shows how moot that idea was.

As for Egyptian immigration - I refer you to the occupation (or liberation?) of the area back in 1830, by the Egyptians from the hands of the Ottomans, and the fact that many Egyptian clerics moved to the land. Also, the fact that the area borders Egypt (one Palestinian/Egyptian city, Rafah, is divided! do you honestly tell me the people on one side of the city are completely different from the other ones?).

The land since antiquity was always a buffer zone and Egyptian rulers since biblical times and before that had from time to time aspirations towards it, and the area was under Egyptian-based rule.

As for the occupation of Gaza Strip, I'm sorry but it started in 1948, which makes it even worse - as soon as the Egyptians government (or for that matter - all other Arab governments) came in contacts with Palestinians, they put them in refugee camps and denied them of any civil rights:

"On 22 September 1948, towards the end of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, the All-Palestine Government was proclaimed in the Egyptian occupied Gaza City by the Arab League. It was conceived partly as an Arab League attempt to limit the influence of Transjordan in Palestine. The All-Palestine Government was quickly recognized by six of the then seven members of the Arab League: Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Yemen, but not by Transjordan.[8] It was not recognised by any country outside the Arab League.

After the cessation of hostilities, the Israel-Egypt Armistice Agreement of 24 February 1949 established the separation line between Egyptian and Israeli forces, and established what became the present boundary between the Gaza Strip and Israel. Both sides declared that the boundary was not to be an international border. The southern border with Egypt continued to be the international border which had been drawn in 1906 between the Ottoman Empire and the British Empire.[9]

The population of the Gaza Strip had been greatly augmented by an influx of Palestinian refugees who fled from Israel before and during the fighting. Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip or Egypt were issued All-Palestine passports. Egypt did not offer the Palestinians citizenship. From the end of 1949, they received aid from UNRWA. The government was accused of being little more than a façade for Egyptian control, with negligible independent funding or influence. It subsequently moved to Cairo and was dissolved in 1959, by decree of Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt."

In the same article it says:

"The influx of over 200,000 refugees into Gaza during the 1948 war resulted in a dramatic decrease in the standard of living. Because the Egyptian government restricted movement to and from the Gaza Strip, its inhabitants could not look elsewhere for gainful employment.[6] In 1955, one observer (a member of the United Nations Secretariat) noted that "For all practical purposes it would be true to say that for the last six years in Gaza over 300,000 povertystricken people have been physically confined to an area the size of a large city park."[7]"

So ofcourse there are no Palestinian "ghettos" in Egypt! the government back then made sure that such a ghetto will be the Gaza Strip itself!

The humane thing to do back then would be to atleast give them work permissions and allow them to work in Egypt.

Why do you try to protect such actions? Muslim Arabs (or Arabized - doesn't really matter) have been treating Copts, Maronites, Berbers, Assyrians, Kurds and Jews awfully. I am really afraid of the future of your community, meryt, if Egypt will be dominated by the Salafis and the Muslim Brotherhood.

Arabized, not Arab; Egypt has always had a large enough population to prevent its being absorbed or genetically engulfed by new-comer groups. Mottos, songs, and aspirations of unity aside, there will always be a difference between the 'ideal' and the 'real'. No 'Arab' population is ready or willing to forsake its cultural heritage and identity and define itself instead only as Arab (except SA). Two years ago a football match caused a lot of 'nationalistic' strife between Algeria and Egypt and could have caused serious damage in the relationship between both peoples. You may use the German / Austrian example if comparing Syrian/ Lebanese, maybe, but this definitely will not apply if you're talking about Tunisian / Sudanese for instance. Ask a citizen of any Arab country if he is an Arab, he will nod in agreement; telling him that there is no difference between him and the people of the neighboring country will definitely upset him. The 'Arab World' shares a dream of unity but will not erase its cultural specificity. Like the EU, there is that which units them: there's one flag, all will sing the "Ode to Joy" anthem.. but good luck to you if you confuse a Frenchman with a Romanian, or a Portuguese with a Greek, let alone a Flemish with a Walloon, Irish and English….etc. Absorption of Palestinians into another Arab country is not a reaslistic solution.

This is all well and dandy, but the truth is that this doesn't give any excuse to why Syrians, Lebanese and many other Arabic speaking, muslim majority countries would treat other Arabic speaking, muslim majority people in such a way. It actually has nothing to do with their ethnicity - why, if all of these people are so concerned with the well being of the Palestinians, is there no outcry for the atrocious apartheid against Palestinians in those countries?

Edited by Erikl

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meryt-tetisheri

As an Upper Egyptian I believe that the "Egyptianess" of people decreases the further you move to the North, by the time you arrive to Rafah it disappears! :P

Joking aside, how many are the "many" clerics who moved to Gaza, or the soldiers who 'passed' there in 1830? In your estimate, what is the percentage of Palestinians in Gaza who are of Egyptian descent? The fact that Rafah is divided could work both ways: is it Egyptians moving to one half, or Palestinians settling in the other? We are splitting hairs here! I do not believe that the Egyptian influx was of such magnitude that it justifies settling Palestinians in Sinai, leading to Egypt eventually losing Sinai. The Egyptian origin of a few Gaza Palestinians is moot as a solution for the refugee problem. With the population explosion and overcrowding in the narrow strip of the Nile valley, Sinai is a natural and much needed outlet for resettlement of Egyptians. Strategically, economically, politically, historically Sinai is an indispensable part of Egypt that it simply cannot afford to lose.

So ofcourse there are no Palestinian"ghettos" in Egypt! the government back

then made sure that such aghetto will be the Gaza Strip itself

As for the history of the camps, the restrictions enforced whether in 1955, or 2005, or the present day, do you really believe that any party is without guilt, or can be totally absolved? Egypt failed, but so did Israel when it had a longer chance to do better; Hamas is closer to a stab in the back, the other Arab countries provided more decibels than meaningful help. To various degrees, we are all sinners, and that includes Israel, Egypt, Hamas, the PLO, and yes, the Palestinians themselves also…all had control over Gaza, but that didn't improve the lives of the people there. It is a very well-known fact the Palestinian issue has been used by various Arab political regimes as a distraction for their populations and a way to legitimize their hold on power; and on the fringes, the soft manipulations of the petro-dollar. This is the reason why Israeli policies are readily criticized before local policies are questioned. It is also stunningly obvious that Israel sometimes goes out of its way to make their task easier! Both sides are stuck in stubborn policies that lead nowhere except to more misery.

You asked me why am I trying to 'protect these actions', and if I'm worried about the future of the Copts under a Salafi regime. The answer is no I'm not; and yes I am worried and pessimistic about the Salafis, and so are many Copts, moderate Muslims and particularly women. Their rise is part of regional politics that involve direct and indirect muddling of Gulf countries, SA, and the quiet rivalries between them. However,when the head of the Egyptian Wassat party recently declared that he refuses to send his wishes /greetings to Christians during Christmas because it is 'un-Islamic', there was an immediate spontaneous outcry against his bigotry from Muslims before Christians; and thousands went to Tahrir on New Year's Eve to share in Christian prayers & celebrations there. I donot believe that Egypt will turn into another Afghanistan despite the efforts of some fanatics because there is a threshold if crossed the people will turn on the Islamists, and it is obvious that they are aware of that. I refuse the use of the word "apartheid" to describe Egypt, but I will not use it to describe Israel either because that would ignore the rights enjoyed by Israeli Arabs. In both cases it is neither fair nor correct. Anti-Semitism is repugnant and is a symptom of moral & intellectual atrophy, and by the same token one should not brand all Muslims as 'bloodthirsty' Islamists. Undoubtedly there is an anti-Coptic bias and discrimination, but there are also ties of friendship and genuine affection that connect both communities which I cannot ignore.

I believe that there is natural decency and kindness in all people; that acknowledging only the bad stifles the good in them. I refuse to paint any group of people with a wide brush because it may blind me from seeing the good in them. This is why I try to avoid discussing the Israeli/Palestinian issue; there is too much bitterness, rancor, knee jerk reactions and emotional outbursts on all sides. Ideally, all parties should accept that both the Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist in peace within secure borders, but actually the whole area is drowning in bloodshed and shrill bigotry, and politically bigotry is more profitable than peace.

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Black Red Devil

As an Upper Egyptian I believe that the "Egyptianess" of people decreases the further you move to the North, by the time you arrive to Rafah it disappears! :P

Joking aside, how many are the "many" clerics who moved to Gaza, or the soldiers who 'passed' there in 1830? In your estimate, what is the percentage of Palestinians in Gaza who are of Egyptian descent? The fact that Rafah is divided could work both ways: is it Egyptians moving to one half, or Palestinians settling in the other? We are splitting hairs here! I do not believe that the Egyptian influx was of such magnitude that it justifies settling Palestinians in Sinai, leading to Egypt eventually losing Sinai. The Egyptian origin of a few Gaza Palestinians is moot as a solution for the refugee problem. With the population explosion and overcrowding in the narrow strip of the Nile valley, Sinai is a natural and much needed outlet for resettlement of Egyptians. Strategically, economically, politically, historically Sinai is an indispensable part of Egypt that it simply cannot afford to lose.

As for the history of the camps, the restrictions enforced whether in 1955, or 2005, or the present day, do you really believe that any party is without guilt, or can be totally absolved? Egypt failed, but so did Israel when it had a longer chance to do better; Hamas is closer to a stab in the back, the other Arab countries provided more decibels than meaningful help. To various degrees, we are all sinners, and that includes Israel, Egypt, Hamas, the PLO, and yes, the Palestinians themselves also…all had control over Gaza, but that didn't improve the lives of the people there. It is a very well-known fact the Palestinian issue has been used by various Arab political regimes as a distraction for their populations and a way to legitimize their hold on power; and on the fringes, the soft manipulations of the petro-dollar. This is the reason why Israeli policies are readily criticized before local policies are questioned. It is also stunningly obvious that Israel sometimes goes out of its way to make their task easier! Both sides are stuck in stubborn policies that lead nowhere except to more misery.

You asked me why am I trying to 'protect these actions', and if I'm worried about the future of the Copts under a Salafi regime. The answer is no I'm not; and yes I am worried and pessimistic about the Salafis, and so are many Copts, moderate Muslims and particularly women. Their rise is part of regional politics that involve direct and indirect muddling of Gulf countries, SA, and the quiet rivalries between them. However,when the head of the Egyptian Wassat party recently declared that he refuses to send his wishes /greetings to Christians during Christmas because it is 'un-Islamic', there was an immediate spontaneous outcry against his bigotry from Muslims before Christians; and thousands went to Tahrir on New Year's Eve to share in Christian prayers & celebrations there. I donot believe that Egypt will turn into another Afghanistan despite the efforts of some fanatics because there is a threshold if crossed the people will turn on the Islamists, and it is obvious that they are aware of that. I refuse the use of the word "apartheid" to describe Egypt, but I will not use it to describe Israel either because that would ignore the rights enjoyed by Israeli Arabs. In both cases it is neither fair nor correct. Anti-Semitism is repugnant and is a symptom of moral & intellectual atrophy, and by the same token one should not brand all Muslims as 'bloodthirsty' Islamists. Undoubtedly there is an anti-Coptic bias and discrimination, but there are also ties of friendship and genuine affection that connect both communities which I cannot ignore.

I believe that there is natural decency and kindness in all people; that acknowledging only the bad stifles the good in them. I refuse to paint any group of people with a wide brush because it may blind me from seeing the good in them. This is why I try to avoid discussing the Israeli/Palestinian issue; there is too much bitterness, rancor, knee jerk reactions and emotional outbursts on all sides. Ideally, all parties should accept that both the Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist in peace within secure borders, but actually the whole area is drowning in bloodshed and shrill bigotry, and politically bigotry is more profitable than peace.

:tu: Finally a level judged and unbiased post from someone living in the area (the Middle East) which was worth reading, specially the bold part. Now all you need to do is, 1) bring on board the other 499 million people living there and, 2) keep out foreign political influences from running amok for their own personal agendas.

You'll probably have a better chance in accomplishing the 1st objective. No hope in hell with the second.

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MichaelW

What other members? So it's all about me personally. I have a problem with your attitude too, wanting to argue incessantly over nothing. Because you're not able to handle applying a consistent standard that's good enough for all people including Palestinians, it's no wonder you can't even understand that is the topic here. But somehow you don't have any problems with my principle regarding Palestinians? Progress has been made!

I never had any problems. I didn't like the way you forced them onto other people and then claime otherwise.

That's just rhetoric trying to impose black and white thinking on me. Don't dictate to me what I must or must not support. If you can't handle the complexity of an issue leave it for someone else but don't tell them they must be as simple-minded as you are. One dimensional thinking is bad enough. Denying the line between two poles is even worse.

I'm not imposing anything. I found your claims contradictory. You didn't like the way the Israeli government "stole" Palestinian land, so I (and everyone else probably) assumed that you would appreciate the gesture made by the Israeli government to give the land back to the Palestinians but here we are.

I support most of the things about what the Israeli government does. I don't pick and choose which I like and which I hate.

Also, don't lecture other people on conduct. You are not perfect yourself.

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Erikl

As an Upper Egyptian I believe that the "Egyptianess" of people decreases the further you move to the North, by the time you arrive to Rafah it disappears! :P

Joking aside, how many are the "many" clerics who moved to Gaza, or the soldiers who 'passed' there in 1830? In your estimate, what is the percentage of Palestinians in Gaza who are of Egyptian descent? The fact that Rafah is divided could work both ways: is it Egyptians moving to one half, or Palestinians settling in the other? We are splitting hairs here! I do not believe that the Egyptian influx was of such magnitude that it justifies settling Palestinians in Sinai, leading to Egypt eventually losing Sinai. The Egyptian origin of a few Gaza Palestinians is moot as a solution for the refugee problem. With the population explosion and overcrowding in the narrow strip of the Nile valley, Sinai is a natural and much needed outlet for resettlement of Egyptians. Strategically, economically, politically, historically Sinai is an indispensable part of Egypt that it simply cannot afford to lose.

As for the history of the camps, the restrictions enforced whether in 1955, or 2005, or the present day, do you really believe that any party is without guilt, or can be totally absolved? Egypt failed, but so did Israel when it had a longer chance to do better; Hamas is closer to a stab in the back, the other Arab countries provided more decibels than meaningful help. To various degrees, we are all sinners, and that includes Israel, Egypt, Hamas, the PLO, and yes, the Palestinians themselves also…all had control over Gaza, but that didn't improve the lives of the people there. It is a very well-known fact the Palestinian issue has been used by various Arab political regimes as a distraction for their populations and a way to legitimize their hold on power; and on the fringes, the soft manipulations of the petro-dollar. This is the reason why Israeli policies are readily criticized before local policies are questioned. It is also stunningly obvious that Israel sometimes goes out of its way to make their task easier! Both sides are stuck in stubborn policies that lead nowhere except to more misery.

You asked me why am I trying to 'protect these actions', and if I'm worried about the future of the Copts under a Salafi regime. The answer is no I'm not; and yes I am worried and pessimistic about the Salafis, and so are many Copts, moderate Muslims and particularly women. Their rise is part of regional politics that involve direct and indirect muddling of Gulf countries, SA, and the quiet rivalries between them. However,when the head of the Egyptian Wassat party recently declared that he refuses to send his wishes /greetings to Christians during Christmas because it is 'un-Islamic', there was an immediate spontaneous outcry against his bigotry from Muslims before Christians; and thousands went to Tahrir on New Year's Eve to share in Christian prayers & celebrations there. I donot believe that Egypt will turn into another Afghanistan despite the efforts of some fanatics because there is a threshold if crossed the people will turn on the Islamists, and it is obvious that they are aware of that. I refuse the use of the word "apartheid" to describe Egypt, but I will not use it to describe Israel either because that would ignore the rights enjoyed by Israeli Arabs. In both cases it is neither fair nor correct. Anti-Semitism is repugnant and is a symptom of moral & intellectual atrophy, and by the same token one should not brand all Muslims as 'bloodthirsty' Islamists. Undoubtedly there is an anti-Coptic bias and discrimination, but there are also ties of friendship and genuine affection that connect both communities which I cannot ignore.

I believe that there is natural decency and kindness in all people; that acknowledging only the bad stifles the good in them. I refuse to paint any group of people with a wide brush because it may blind me from seeing the good in them. This is why I try to avoid discussing the Israeli/Palestinian issue; there is too much bitterness, rancor, knee jerk reactions and emotional outbursts on all sides. Ideally, all parties should accept that both the Israelis and Palestinians have the right to exist in peace within secure borders, but actually the whole area is drowning in bloodshed and shrill bigotry, and politically bigotry is more profitable than peace.

Putting aside some minor differences and obvious different standing points, I agree with you, and I'm glad to learn that there are people like you over there, although being that your Copt doesn't surprise me. I wish the muslim majority would have been as logical an rational as you :tu: . And I hope only the best for you, your family and your community.

As a side note, of course the word Apartheid is totally misused here - I was employing it simply just to show how hypocrite many of the pro-Palestinian westerners on this forum are, that they have no problem blaming Israel for crimes against humanity and attribute to it Nazi-like behaviours while on the other side turning the other way when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians in Arab countries, and the fact that Israel is actually a democracy. Part of this blindness also concerns you - and for that matter, the treatment of Maronites, Assyrians, Kurds and Berbers in the Middle East. The christians of the middle east are a dying "breed", and all those human rights activists just turn the other way. How many Coptic churches have been torched in this "Arab spring"? How many Assyrians have been fleeding Iraq since 2003 as a result of Islamic, Arabic persecution? How come the Maronites used to be 50% of the Lebanese back in the early 1980s, yet today they are a mere 30% (and it just happens to be that the vast majority of Lebanese living abroad are Christian)? How come everyone speak of state-less people in the middle east, the Palestinians which are 10 million, while no one cares as much for the Kurds, truly unique ethnic group that number some 30 million people and have been denied of their own state for centuries? All of these so called "experts" fail to look at the big picture of the region, which is failure of the majority (Sunni Muslims, Arabic speaking people) to acknowledge the rights of these indigenous people (Jews, and the other pre-Arab, christian/muslim minorities). For that matter, the treatment of these minorities by the majority created three major conflicts - the Sunni vs. Shia (to everyone who isn't familiar, the Shiias have been mistreated by the Sunnis for generations, and this is what made it possible for Iran to influence these minorities even though Arabs and Persians generally do not go well), Christian vs. Muslim (culminating in Lebanon, but also exist in Sudan), and Jews vs. Muslim (Israeli-Arab conflict). The first conflict is a stalemate, the second one resulted in genocides (both in Lebanon and in Sudan), and the third one in a temporary victory of the minority (Israelis).

The biggest problem in the region, thus, is minorities rights. They have been pushed around too much for ages.

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meryt-tetisheri

Thank you for your kind words, they are much appreciated

However, you threw a huge tangled issue at me with the minorities' question. I can only make a very brief comment and inevitably it will end up being incoherent. The subject is too large & complicated!

The Kurdish issue will never be handled on the basis of morality or human rights only. The lands of Kurdistan cover a large area of Turkey, Iraq, Syria, and Iran. Granting the Kurds their land & their autonomy means dismantling these states, destabilizing a geopolitically crucial and already volatile area, threatening the existence of a NATO member…This would be a huge step involving huge risks, one way to solve it is to do it only partially and conveniently grant autonomy to that part in Iraq which sits over the world's sixth largest reserve of oil. For most people in the Middle East, or the West, the Kurds seem too remote, existing only at the periphery of their attention; until Turkey goes overboard in bombing them, then the proper noises will be made and the world will slip back to its previous span of attention.

Actually, the major problem in the area, the one which influences all other problems, is oil, until the world is weaned of it, whether by fission or if another source of energy is developed. The countries which produce it are earning huge revenues, have small populations, are governed by small undemocratic (and quite paranoid) ultra conservative dynasties. They are surrounded by populous, poorer yet also stronger countries. The best way to protect their fortune and guarantee their hold on power is to play the religion card to transform themselves into the region's influential power broker, and the sole source of the "proper" interpretation of Islam. Add to the mix an ambitious Shiite Iran, and you will see why the Maronites had to go, the Copts, Iraqi Christians, and other minorities became a nuisance that must be terrorized into silence. I am not saying that they are the source of religious intolerance, there will always be the "us" vs "them" attitude -it's part of human nature- but the Gulf dynasties have actively manipulated and nurtured it. It is estimated that SA spent close to 2 billion dollars on spreading Wahhabism; last week it was declared that Qatar 'donated' several hundred million dollars to one Salafi group in Egypt during last year. Until recently Shiites were accepted as another Muslim sect, but suddenly some prominent sheikhs started to issue warnings against the insiduous dangers of Shiism. There are maximum a few thousand shiites in Egypt, not enough to threaten a village mosque, let alone Islam as a religion, but it is interesting to time these warnings with Bahrain and events in Iran. It is also interesting to note the change (and its timing) of the title of the king of SA from "His Majesty the King of..." to "the honorable Servant of the Two Shrines"

There are about 15 million Copts in Egypt. While many have left, or are planning to leave, many others are defiant, insisting that Egypt is their country and they will not leave it. The torching and bombing of churches started as a tactic by the regime, progressively used since Sadat's era. January 2010 a group of young Copts were machine gunned down as they were leaving church after Christmas Eve mass. The killers were associates of a prominent member of the ruling party. January 2011 a car bomb exploded infront of a church on New Year's Eve, killing & maiming many; the minister of Interior was implicated. October 2011 the Maspero massacre, it was by army vehicles. Other incidents involved public announcements which somehow ignited tense sectarian situations. These incidents are not haphazard, minorities, are used to transmit certain messages, silence a group, inflame another, or distract the attention of people from another problem...Intolerance and religious bias exist, but it takes a calculating manipulative marionette master to pull the strings. In one sense, I am more cynical than you, I do not expect any radical policy or reaction except within the limited maneuverability allowed by oil dependence. On the other hand, I still believe that poverty, ignorance & the manipulations of a few are the main culprits; that common decency and tolerance will prevail on the long run.

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and then

Thank you for your kind words, they are much appreciated

////////////////////////////////////////////////

There are about 15 million Copts in Egypt. While many have left, or are planning to leave, many others are defiant, insisting that Egypt is their country and they will not leave it. The torching and bombing of churches started as a tactic by the regime, progressively used since Sadat's era. January 2010 a group of young Copts were machine gunned down as they were leaving church after Christmas Eve mass. The killers were associates of a prominent member of the ruling party. January 2011 a car bomb exploded infront of a church on New Year's Eve, killing & maiming many; the minister of Interior was implicated. October 2011 the Maspero massacre, it was by army vehicles. Other incidents involved public announcements which somehow ignited tense sectarian situations. These incidents are not haphazard, minorities, are used to transmit certain messages, silence a group, inflame another, or distract the attention of people from another problem...Intolerance and religious bias exist, but it takes a calculating manipulative marionette master to pull the strings. In one sense, I am more cynical than you, I do not expect any radical policy or reaction except within the limited maneuverability allowed by oil dependence. On the other hand, I still believe that poverty, ignorance & the manipulations of a few are the main culprits; that common decency and tolerance will prevail on the long run.

[/font]

You have a well considered and personal knowledge of the facts on the ground there just as Erikl does. I tried asking this question in a separate thread but no interest. Hopefully you can shed some light from personal opinion: With the unrest and jostling for new freedoms by the peoples of Tunisia, Libya,Egypt,Syria,Yemen and Bahrain and to a lesser extent Jordan and SA, how likely do you find the proposition that an Islamist "unification" may evolve in the near future? Might the new governments in the region cede part of their power to an umbrella group or individual closely associated with the idea or desire for a new Caliphate? I'm not trying to draw you into some argument about West v Islam...just interested in your opinion. Thanks

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Yamato

Translation: "My only fault is that I'm such a good person and enlightened above you all" :rolleyes:

Or I'm a terrible person and not more enlightened than anyone and it doesn't matter. I'm trying to find good standards because if they can't even be identified, they'll never get applied. I'm not the one with the self-righteousness issues; I'm the one that's just trying to be a better person. The people happy with themselves and the way things are going are the ones with the self-righteous issue. We can do much, much better, and that includes me personally by extension of the policy in my own country. Hence this discussion you see before you.

Your bias is that you adhere to the Palestinian narrative entirely.

For example?

You claim you apply good standards to everyone - yet which good standards did you apply to the Israelis?

The exact same standards that I'm applying to Palestinians and myself.

coming from you, they are all evil, oh wait no you applied the classic trick - our governments are all evil.

As I've said, governments usually have the best of intentions, but their remedy to problems is force control. As someone who believes in liberty I look for other solutions first and force control last. That might not be a good idea in your opinion but it must be discussed in order to identify a better idea.

Problem in a democracy, is that generally the government is elected by the people and represent the people. So saying that all Israeli governments have been committing evil crimes is the same as saying that there is a criminal majority in Israel since it's creation that keeps voting criminals and murderers into power.

The other option is claiming that Israel has no democracy and we are all lead blindly by ruthless dictators, that for some reason are elected every 4 years, and each time from different political party :tu:

The problem is the policy and there's only one government at a time. The one in power now is administering the policy. It's as simple as that. I care what is happening to Palestinians every day, tomorrow and the day after tomorrow. Sorry about that.

Who calimed Jews are higher than Arabs?no one claims that.

The Israeli government imposes it every time they come up with another Jew-only policy.

As to white vs. brown - many Israeli Jews would be considered "Brown" in Europe or the US.

And that difference between people should never make a difference in policy either.

Israel is the only western country to bring in tens of thousands of black people not for slavery purpose. And Israel is one of the only western democracies to have had a woman as a leader of state, when it was only 30 years old. We also currently have a woman head of the high court. And until two years ago, a woman was the head of the parliament. The leader of the opposition is currently a woman.

And all the other wonderful reasons to support Israel too, and I still wouldn't be able to treat Israel any better than the US or Canada or the UK. What does this have to do with equal rights for Palestinians?

Israel, also, while having a bloody conflict with Palestinian Arabs for the past 80 years or so, grant full civil and human rights to it's Palestinian citizens. So you see why blaming my country with racism or other Nazi-like policies towards Palestinians make me laugh at best if not cry because sadly enough, this is what the world think of us. :no:

If you want your nation be treated as free from bigotry, you must lose the Jew-only bigotry in your policies that you occupy yourself with on other peoples land. I'm going to treat Israeli policy as well as it deserves to be treated and bigotry doesn't deserve much. The rampant apartheid in Palestinian territory imposed by Israel is not racist, it's a reflection of a minority in Israelis who want Palestinian property for themselves. You're thieves who murder to keep on stealing. I have nothing but contempt for that. Zionist Israel is a barbaric colonial power lost in the 21st century who laughably uses 3,000 year old superstitions to justify their behavior. It should be viewed as a simple and gentle suggestion that maybe I should subscribe to the superstition first before being forced to pay for it. Racism is like any other bigotry whether it's religious bigotry or ethnic bigotry or sexist bigotry or racist bigotry. Rank ordering examples of bigotry from best to worst is an exercise that somebody else might find worth their time.

The sadder part is that Palestinians really are treated the way you present it, but not under Israeli government. Check the situation of Palestinians in Lebanon, Syria and Egypt, and you'll see the definition of apartheid, racism etc.. And all of this under the supervision of the UN in the form of UNRWA. :blush:

No, the information presented here including what the first video shows is how Palestinians are treated by the Israeli government. They're not "under" the Israeli government so I would never present it in such manner as that. I'm talking about Palestinians in Palestinian land. Not Egypt, or Israel, or Lebanon, or whatever you have to change the subject to. As I predicted this zionist kool aid from the very beginning, sins somewhere else don't excuse the sins being done to Palestinians on their own land. You are more than welcome to post a new discussion about Palestinian refugees on someone else's land. I will be glad to participate in that discussion there.

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Yamato

I never had any problems. I didn't like the way you forced them onto other people and then claime otherwise.

I'm glad you consider something I said was forceful (what?), but between you and me, the only one being forced to do things he doesn't want to do is me. You have so many things not to like about me personally, why don't you find someone to do something with where you won't have so many personal problems?

I support most of the things about what the Israeli government does. I don't pick and choose which I like and which I hate.

If your claim is right and you know you support most of it, then you have to pick what you support from what you don't. It's policy that matters. Stealing from others is wrong. Whatever other things the Israeli government does that I might agree with doesn't change that.

I'm not imposing anything. I found your claims contradictory. You didn't like the way the Israeli government "stole" Palestinian land, so I (and everyone else probably) assumed that you would appreciate the gesture made by the Israeli government to give the land back to the Palestinians but here we are.

Finding a standard good enough for everyone might seem like a contradiction to you after the hijacking of useless banter you've put on this thread. And hell no, that attempt at winning my support is abject pathetic. A thief telling me that he's going to temporarily stop stealing my property and give me a chance to submit to what he's already stolen? Yeah, how could "everyone else" not appreciate that. You speak for others too often.

Also, don't lecture other people on conduct. You are not perfect yourself.

Don't dictate to me what I "must" support. I'm not going to "must" anything from you. If you can't handle the complexity of an issue leave it for someone else but don't tell them they must be as simple-minded as you are. I'm far from perfect which is why I'm the one here that's looking for a better way, not making excuses for self-righteous thieves or dictating to foreigners that they "must" think like I do.

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Yamato

As a side note, of course the word Apartheid is totally misused here - I was employing it simply just to show how hypocrite many of the pro-Palestinian westerners on this forum are, that they have no problem blaming Israel for crimes against humanity and attribute to it Nazi-like behaviours while on the other side turning the other way when it comes to the treatment of Palestinians in Arab countries, and the fact that Israel is actually a democracy.

The biggest problem in the region, thus, is minorities rights. They have been pushed around too much for ages.

The apartheid in Palestinian territory is hideous. There is no sign of apartheid in the state of Israel. You wrongly accuse me of "having a blind eye" because I haven't addressed it yet, so you presumptuously fill in the blanks yourself and tell other people what I think? That's not gonna stick.

If the world is such a bad place for Palestinian refugees, and who would want to be a refugee for five minutes, then that's a fabulous reason for the Palestinians to have a state to return to. You really shouldn't have brought that up.

I don't have a blind eye for this "Arab" treatment of Palestinians in other countries. Why is it that "the Arab" nature of these other countries is always stressed? Is it to say that, because like Palestinians, they're Arabs too and they should therefore be more accommodating to their own kind, thus promoting bigotry yet again? If truly "the biggest problem is minorities rights" then we're never going to be able to handle a consistent set of universal rights for all people, since many people aren't minorities and won't get those special rights whatever it is they are. I cut out most of your reply that wasn't directed at me or concerning Palestinians, but I do note that your reply is based on dividing up groups of people and putting them at conflict with one another and messily trying to apply different sets of rights to different groups.

I think that kind of thinking is the biggest problem.

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MichaelW

Finding a standard good enough for everyone might seem like a contradiction to you after the hijacking of useless banter you've put on this thread. And hell no, that attempt at winning my support is abject pathetic. A thief telling me that he's going to temporarily stop stealing my property and give me a chance to submit to what he's already stolen? Yeah, how could "everyone else" not appreciate that. You speak for others too often.

Deflection failed. You support the Palestinians correct? So why do you then say that what the Israeli government is wrong when it is helping the Palestinians? You can't babble your way out of this one.

Don't dictate to me what I "must" support. I'm not going to "must" anything from you. If you can't handle the complexity of an issue leave it for someone else but don't tell them they must be as simple-minded as you are. I'm far from perfect which is why I'm the one here that's looking for a better way, not making excuses for self-righteous thieves or dictating to foreigners that they "must" think like I do.

If you can't handle the fact that someone isn't bending to your will, don't continue the conversation. If you can't handle the fact that someone has pointed out a gaping flaw in your point/argument/rebuttal/whatever you want to call it, don't make it obvious.

I'm not "simple minded" as you wrongfully claim (again). The fact is, you made a contradiction in whatever it is that dribbles out of your head and onto the keyboard and someone picked up on it and you can't answer for it.

I'm not going to even start on the many contradictions (and hypocracy, I shouldn't forget that) in your last statement.

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Yamato

Deflection failed. You support the Palestinians correct? So why do you then say that what the Israeli government is wrong when it is helping the Palestinians? You can't babble your way out of this one.

I support human rights, correct. No, I never thought nor said such nonsense that Israel is helping Palestinians. What is so impossible to respect about the property of Palestinians? Do you need to lose your own property before you learn respect for the property of others? If I came into your house in the middle of the night and roped you to a chair while I justly stole all your goods for my own righteous enjoyment, I suppose you'd call it "helping you" if I loosened the rope? LOL Find a standard, please.

Here's an applied standard on defending civil liberties. Let's consider calling it "What should happen to thieves":

If you break into my house to take my property and I catch you here I'll shoot you. That's not a threat, that's a promise. That's not a crime, that's the law. In my state we have castle laws. We take our private property seriously and that's a standard that I think is good enough for Israelis, and..... wait for it.....wait for it..... for Palestinians too! :w00t: Joe Horn famously blew people away in his neighbor's yard for walking away with his neighbor's property when his neighbor wasn't home. He's not a terrorist, he's a hero! Palestinians need weapons to defend themselves so they can be heroes too. ;)

If you can't handle the fact that someone isn't bending to your will, don't continue the conversation. If you can't handle the fact that someone has pointed out a gaping flaw in your point/argument/rebuttal/whatever you want to call it, don't make it obvious.

What gaping flaw? What exactly do you disagree with me about here? You love to play rhetorical games and exchange banter. I get that. But do you have anything of substance to disagree about? Other than writing your little smear jobs down about me, do you have any other purpose here? I can handle immature people with a fetish for misunderstanding everything I say, what I can't handle is thieves stealing someone else's property or tyrants oppressing innocent people of their rights.

I'm not going to even start on the many contradictions (and hypocracy, I shouldn't forget that) in your last statement.

Of course you won't!

I'm not "simple minded" as you wrongfully claim (again). The fact is, you made a contradiction in whatever it is that dribbles out of your head and onto the keyboard and someone picked up on it and you can't answer for it.

Who? What contradiction? It was simple-minded in my opinion to try to box me into a this-or-that false choice with no middle ground that you created. It makes no sense to defend Israelis living on settlements in Palestinian land. Why bother?

Your problems are entirely self-inflicted here. Please try to understand what I'm saying instead of disingenuously trying to obfuscate it. You'll never learn anything or accomplish anything good in your life by obfuscation I promise you. Take that one small piece of advice from me if you can't take anything else away from this discussion. I'm starting to sound like a broken record in saying this, but I'm far from perfect which is why I'm the one here that's looking for a better way. The subject of this thread is Palestinians. When I post a video of Dr. Norman Finkelstein talking about Palestinians, don't come here with another pimply-faced personal problem telling me to get back on topic. The topic is not me. If you can't shut up about me then you really need to find somewhere else to go.

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MichaelW

I support human rights, correct. No, I never thought nor said such nonsense that Israel is helping Palestinians. What is so impossible to respect about the property of Palestinians? Do you need to lose your own property before you learn respect for the property of others? If I came into your house in the middle of the night and roped you to a chair while I justly stole all your goods for my own righteous enjoyment, I suppose you'd call it "helping you" if I loosened the rope? LOL Find a standard, please.

But you said that the property in Gaza was that of Israel, not of the Palestinians. You said, and I can quote you on this, that you said that the Israeli government was evil for evicting Israelis from their own property. You support the Palestinians and their cause so why would you come out and say that the Gaza Strip was Israeli property?

What gaping flaw? What exactly do you disagree with me about here? You love to play rhetorical games and exchange banter. I get that. But do you have anything of substance to disagree about? Other than writing your little smear jobs down about me, do you have any other purpose here? I can handle immature people with a fetish for misunderstanding everything I say, what I can't handle is thieves stealing someone else's property or tyrants oppressing innocent people of their rights.

So then why would you claim that the Gaza Strip is Israeli property when in fact, it is supposed to be Palestinian? I'm not trying to disagree with you, I;m trying to find why you contradict yourself so. Either the Gaza Strip belongs to the Palestinians (as it should) or it should belong to Israel.

Who? What contradiction? It was simple-minded in my opinion to try to box me into a this-or-that false choice with no middle ground that you created. It makes no sense to defend Israelis living on settlements in Palestinian land. Why bother?

I'm not. I'm asking you about the Gaza Strip. See above. There is no middle ground in this case. Either it is Palestinian or it isn't.

[

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Erikl
For example?

In your first post you blame Israel for ethnic cleansing! even though it was never proven in any court that Israel is carrying on such a policy against the Palestinians. This means it's nothing but your own personal ideology and bias that makes you view Israel as a complete evil, and the Palestinians as complete victims. And I'm sorry, only extremist view the world with absolutes. So no matter how many nice and humane words your will sugar coat your posts, basically you are a radical pro-Palestinian who tries to push his agendas by presenting your own extremist views as a known paradigm.

The exact same standards that I'm applying to Palestinians and myself.

Erm, no you don't. I've never seen one post in this thread seriously dealing with the faults of the other side, other than something like "I condemn all violence and racism", which is more sugar coating BS.

For you, Israel/Israeli government and Zionism are on par with fascism, apartheid regime and Nazi-like policies. Being that it has nothing to do with the truth, and that Israel is actually a democracy, and that both Palestinian political main stream parties are not (Fatah and Hamas), the fact that Palestinian president keeps calling for a country clean of Jews, while Israel has no problem being the home for 1.5 million Israeli Palestinians, etc.. So obviously Palestinians are not judged according to the same standards. You actually do not expect from them to behave the same as you expect from Israel, which makes you, ofcourse unknowingly, a racist of low expectations.

As I've said, governments usually have the best of intentions, but their remedy to problems is force control. As someone who believes in liberty I look for other solutions first and force control last. That might not be a good idea in your opinion but it must be discussed in order to identify a better idea.

What does that even mean? :blink: You didn't response at all to my claim, just spin it to spread some more political sugar coating :wacko: .

The problem is the policy and there's only one government at a time. The one in power now is administering the policy. It's as simple as that.

And that government is elected by the people and for the people, this is how democracy works. Being that you didn't criticise the current government of Israel, but Israeli policies against the Palestinians for generations, then ofcourse you lumped all the governments together regardless of who's in charge. That just stems from your views of Israel as a totalitarian state, because such a view is only relevant with these type of governments. Being that Israel is a democracy and Israelis are not a herd of sheep, this view is again, ideological based and has no place as a paradigm or a fact to base your other so called facts on.

The Israeli government imposes it every time they come up with another Jew-only policy.

Is that during the time we all wear white sheets and burn stars of david? or when we goose step and salute with a roman salute?

Come on. Israel is a Jewish majority country, so obviously most of the laws favour the majority. It's the same in virtually very nation state. The importance is, do laws to oppress the Arab minority pass, and the answer is: Palestinians enjoy full civil and human rights as citizens of Israel. Which makes any claim that the policies of Israel in the disputed territories (which you call - Palestinian territories, again showing your bias here) as racial based moot. This also makes any claim about alleged apartheid moot. However, when the Palestinian president claims that there will not be allowed one Israeli (translation: "Jew", I'm sure he'll have no problem with Palestinian Israeli) to live in future Palestine, that's not Palestinian-only policy, right? When Palestinians praise murderers of Jews, that's not racism? when Palestinian media publish anti-Semitic caricatures on daily basis, that's not an obstacle for peace. Of course not :rolleyes: .

And all the other wonderful reasons to support Israel too, and I still wouldn't be able to treat Israel any better than the US or Canada or the UK. What does this have to do with equal rights for Palestinians?

I don't expect you, but you don't even do that. You judge Israel in a completely different standard, you don't apply the same standard on the Palestinians. Are they not human beings as well?

If you want your nation be treated as free from bigotry, you must lose the Jew-only bigotry in your policies that you occupy yourself with on other peoples land. I'm going to treat Israeli policy as well as it deserves to be treated and bigotry doesn't deserve much. The rampant apartheid in Palestinian territory imposed by Israel is not racist, it's a reflection of a minority in Israelis who want Palestinian property for themselves. You're thieves who murder to keep on stealing. I have nothing but contempt for that. Zionist Israel is a barbaric colonial power lost in the 21st century who laughably uses 3,000 year old superstitions to justify their behavior. It should be viewed as a simple and gentle suggestion that maybe I should subscribe to the superstition first before being forced to pay for it. Racism is like any other bigotry whether it's religious bigotry or ethnic bigotry or sexist bigotry or racist bigotry. Rank ordering examples of bigotry from best to worst is an exercise that somebody else might find worth their time.

Right and your not biased at all, you don't have any prejudice against Israel what so ever ;):innocent::rolleyes: ..... Thank you for just proving my exact point. The cat is out of the sack at last :tu: .

Now go look at the mirror and congratulate yourself for coming out of the racist closet :alien:

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Mr.United_Nations

I think Israel should be blamed for that but towards the government and the majoirty of people i know who are my age and early adults agree that Israel is becoming a fascist state. Along with its Leader and Isreal needs to stop, Most people support the Palestinian casue, free Palestine! :innocent::rolleyes:

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Erikl

I think Israel should be blamed for that but towards the government and the majoirty of people i know who are my age and early adults agree that Israel is becoming a fascist state. Along with its Leader and Isreal needs to stop, Most people support the Palestinian casue, free Palestine! :innocent::rolleyes:

Ofcourse you do :tu: .

You're a by product of constant brain washing.

Just answer the following: if Israel is becoming a fascist state for so many years, how is it so that it's not already fascist? :w00t::rolleyes:

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and then

I think Israel should be blamed for that but towards the government and the majoirty of people i know who are my age and early adults agree that Israel is becoming a fascist state. Along with its Leader and Isreal needs to stop, Most people support the Palestinian casue, free Palestine! :innocent::rolleyes:

With any luck, after the next hostilities come to an end Israel will have FREED PALESTINE of most of the "palestinians"... :w00t:

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Erikl

With any luck, after the next hostilities come to an end Israel will have FREED PALESTINE of most of the "palestinians"... :w00t:

I'm sorry, we all the appreciated support to Israel, we do not conduct genocides or massacre people :no: .

I hope the Palestinian leadership will stop teach it's people hatred, and then peace will exist.

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