Contrails, Chemtrails & Weird clouds

[Englishgent]

what year did you move to thailand?

no one here has said there were no contrails in the UK back then.

http://cloudapprecia...org/collecting/

the clouds in the second photo are not natural

When I moved to Thailand is irrelevant. And guess what, we even get contrails over here.

The clouds in the second photo are natural. Like i said, do some research before you make a bigger fool of yourself than you are already doing

[Little Fish]

How do you know that the same aircraft is making multiple fly bys? You don't.

because they sometimes turn around and fly back. hardly the behaviour of a ordinary plane going about its business.

What you're seeing is....

You're seeing normal jet traffic, and nothing more.

[Little Fish]

When I moved to Thailand is irrelevant.

on the contrary, its critical.

And guess what, we even get contrails over here.

of course you get contrails over there because planes produce contrails. nobody has said planes don't produce contrails.

The clouds in the second photo are natural.

if you are right then I will agree with you.

[MID]

the clouds in the second photo are not natural

And of course, you will now explain how they're not natural, and exactly wehat un-natural thing caused them???

[Englishgent]

Little fish. I moved here over 4 years ago although I fail to see how this information is 'critical' when we are merely disputing the origin of clouds.

I have attached a few photos of natural formations which I took. If you think they are not natural, please let me know.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Englishgent

[Englishgent]

Here are some more. All natural. Not a contrail in sight

[MID]

because they sometimes turn around and fly back. hardly the behaviour of a ordinary plane going about its business.

They "sometimes" turn around and fly back?

When, and why would they do that?

Show me.

You realize that pretty soon, you'll be up against a wall with this tactic of making unsubstantiated declarations about airplanes.

You're going to be required to prove yourself.

I hope you're prepared.

[Little Fish]

we are merely disputing the origin of clouds

you are inferring that I am saying that clouds are only created by contrails. please don't do that, I have been around the block with this more than enough times.

Little fish. I moved here over 4 years ago

then that probably explains it. in the UK heavy spraying producing clouds and white skies in the UK started in 2009, watch some of the videos.

[Little Fish]

They "sometimes" turn around and fly back?

When, and why would they do that?

Show me.

You realize that pretty soon, you'll be up against a wall with this tactic of making unsubstantiated declarations about airplanes.

You're going to be required to prove yourself.

I hope you're prepared.

MID, give it up would you, seriously why do you do this? does someone pay you to hijack these threads or do you do it for sport? I care not to prove anything to the likes of you. I've told you they sometimes turn around and fly back because I have seen it. a plane flying over a blue sky from horizon to horizon, turning around at the horizon and flying back to the other horizon, leaving a continous white smokey trail with a bend in it at one of the horizons, now what's that about? pilot forgot he'd left the oven on? Furthermore I have seen these trails at 4,000 feet as I have explained to you previosuly. Edited December 16, 2011 by Little Fish

[Englishgent]

you are inferring that I am saying that clouds are only created by contrails. please don't do that, I have been around the block with this more than enough times.

then that probably explains it. in the UK heavy spraying producing clouds and white skies in the UK started in 2009, watch some of the videos.

I have not inferred anything of the sort. I cannot see anything in this thread which suggests that you believe all clouds to be contrails. However, if you have taken anything I have said that way then I will apologise. It was not meant that way.You have disputed the second photo in this thread. I have corrected you. I have also given links to prove my point. What I am saying is that you are mistaken in your identity of certain clouds.

If as you say, you have been round the block more than enough times, then you no doubt will have come up against other people who dispute (some) of your claims regarding the origin of certain natural clouds.

Edited December 16, 2011 by Englishgent

[Englishgent]

you are inferring that I am saying that clouds are only created by contrails. please don't do that, I have been around the block with this more than enough times.

then that probably explains it. in the UK heavy spraying producing clouds and white skies in the UK started in 2009, watch some of the videos.

Ok, as for this video which talks about contrails. The video is talking about the USA but the conditions which cause contrails would be the same in the UK

Yes. there are certain days when weather conditions at various altitudes cause many contrails. That is because the aircraft are flying at a certain height where the air temperatue freezes the jet exhaust. There are also days when you dont see many contrails, or very few, yet there are the same amount of aircraft flying at the same altitude as they did when the contrails were visible. This effect is caused by weather conditions.

You talk about heavy spraying starting in the UK in 2009. Spraying of what? It would help if you elaborated on this point. I still agree with you regarding the emissions and we should try all we can to reduce them. But the simple fact remains that there will be days when you see many contrails, and days when you wont.

[Little Fish]

Spraying of what?

spraying of stuff that causes vapour trails to form at lower altitude and higher temperature than ordinarily would occur.

"2.1. Potential seeding material

An ideal ice nucleating agent for cirrus geoengineering would

be one having a high effectivity (for ice nucleation) at

temperatures colder than ∼−20 ◦C, but a very low effectivity

at warmer temperatures. Bismuth tri-iodide (BiI3) had been

investigated as an ice nucleant for weather modification

programs but was unsuitable because its effectivity threshold

was below −10 ◦C. However, this makes it a suitable

ice nucleant for geoengineering, targeting primarily cirrus

clouds and not the clouds normally targeted in cloud seeding

experiments. In addition, BiI3 is non-toxic and reagent grade

bismuth metal is about 1/12th the cost of silver, suggesting

BiI3 would be about 1/12th the cost of AgI.

Bismuth tri-iodide can be generated in aerosol form

by combustion of an alcohol solution of BiI3 (solubility,

3.5 g/100 ml). A better aerosol generating system for this

nucleant is pyrotechnic combustion. For this, a modest

program of research and development would be required.

A pressed composite mixture of BiI3, potassium perchlorate

(KClO4), aluminum and gilsonite (a natural hydrocarbon)

would be appropriate.

2.2. Delivery mechanism

Since commercial airliners routinely fly in the region where

cold cirrus clouds exist, it is hoped that the seeding material

could either be (1) dissolved or suspended in their jet fuel

and later burned with the fuel to create seeding aerosol,

or (2) injected into the hot engine exhaust, which should

vaporize the seeding material, allowing it to condense as

aerosol in the jet contrail. The objective would not be to seed

specific cloud systems but rather to build up a background

concentration of aerosol seeding material so that the air masses

that cirrus will form in will contain the appropriate amount

of seeding material to produce larger ice crystals. Since the

residence time of seeding material might be on the order of

1–2 weeks, release rates of seeding material would need to

account for this. With the delivery process already existing,

this geoengineering approach may be less expensive than other

proposed approaches"

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/4/4/045102/pdf/1748-9326_4_4_045102.pdf

science conference on geoengineering using plane spraying alumina:

7 minutes in, listen to the questioner at 8:40

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MEW9C4IaHYU&feature=fvsr

[_Only]

seen any like this?

16th sept 2011

Yeah, a lot like that.

[Englishgent]

spraying of stuff that causes vapour trails to form at lower altitude and higher temperature than ordinarily would occur.

"2.1. Potential seeding material

An ideal ice nucleating agent for cirrus geoengineering would

be one having a high effectivity (for ice nucleation) at

temperatures colder than ∼−20 ◦C, but a very low effectivity

at warmer temperatures. Bismuth tri-iodide (BiI3) had been

investigated as an ice nucleant for weather modification

programs but was unsuitable because its effectivity threshold

was below −10 ◦C. However, this makes it a suitable

ice nucleant for geoengineering, targeting primarily cirrus

clouds and not the clouds normally targeted in cloud seeding

experiments. In addition, BiI3 is non-toxic and reagent grade

bismuth metal is about 1/12th the cost of silver, suggesting

BiI3 would be about 1/12th the cost of AgI.

Bismuth tri-iodide can be generated in aerosol form

by combustion of an alcohol solution of BiI3 (solubility,

3.5 g/100 ml). A better aerosol generating system for this

nucleant is pyrotechnic combustion. For this, a modest

program of research and development would be required.

A pressed composite mixture of BiI3, potassium perchlorate

(KClO4), aluminum and gilsonite (a natural hydrocarbon)

would be appropriate.

2.2. Delivery mechanism

Since commercial airliners routinely fly in the region where

cold cirrus clouds exist, it is hoped that the seeding material

could either be (1) dissolved or suspended in their jet fuel

and later burned with the fuel to create seeding aerosol,

or (2) injected into the hot engine exhaust, which should

vaporize the seeding material, allowing it to condense as

aerosol in the jet contrail. The objective would not be to seed

specific cloud systems but rather to build up a background

concentration of aerosol seeding material so that the air masses

that cirrus will form in will contain the appropriate amount

of seeding material to produce larger ice crystals. Since the

residence time of seeding material might be on the order of

1–2 weeks, release rates of seeding material would need to

account for this. With the delivery process already existing,

this geoengineering approach may be less expensive than other

proposed approaches"

http://iopscience.io..._4_4_045102.pdf

science conference on geoengineering using plane spraying alumina:

7 minutes in, listen to the questioner at 8:40

http://www.youtube.c...YU&feature=fvsr

Ok, so the guy askes a very sensible question about the effects on human health, and quite rightly so. But the seeding of clouds with various chemicals has been going on for years, not just since 2009 in the UK.

At the start of the video a lady says the reason for the contrails staying visible over a long period of time is because they are chemtrails and not contrails. I didnt hear her quote any evidence to back up her theory.

A contrail will last just as long as weather conditions allow. I can recall watching jets fly over when I was a young boy and wondering then why some trails last longer than other. Some of them will disappear almost as soon as they leave the jet engine.Some would last for hours as they slowly spread out across the sky. This was before rain seeding was being experimented with (as far as I am aware)

Another part of the video shows whats known as irridesence (rainbow colours in the clouds). This is not proof of chemicals. It occurs naturally when the sun is at a certain angle compared to the cloud and the suns light is split into the spectrum by the water vapour in the clouds. Exactly the same way in which a rainbow is formed. (see attached couple of examples I photographed in Bangkok)

I am not suggesting that the practice of seeding by commercial aircraft is not being carried out. I dont know one way or the other but it would seem a sensible way of testing it whether one agrees with the principle or not.

edit for spelling error

Edited December 16, 2011 by Englishgent

[_Only]

isn't it obvious?

a wide scale geoengineering project is underway which they are not telling you about, and has been for a number of years. the recent durban conference presented a UN draft document that called for a 2 celcius reduction in global temperatures. there is scientific literature which explains that adding barium salts, aluminium dioxide and other polluting and toxic chemicals into jet fuel will create longer lasting and thicker clouds from the vapour trails which form below the normal temperature thresholds they ordinarily would have, thus creating more clouds, and ugly ones at that.

the sad thing is that we could have had public debate and awareness on this issue if it wasn't for the juvenile ignorant denialist p***-takers that flood threads like this all over the internet.

Yeah, I was aware of that general idea, but too afraid to entertain it, because people jump on you, basically calling you an idiot, or crazy, for thinking it could be a possible explanation.

edit - fixed quote

Edited December 16, 2011 by Jerry Only

[_Only]

Definitely clouds (Cirrus) not contrails

He means that is the result the next few days, after the trails have dissipated.

[MID]

MID, give it up would you, seriously why do you do this? does someone pay you to hijack these threads or do you do it for sport? I care not to prove anything to the likes of you. I've told you they sometimes turn around and fly back because I have seen it. a plane flying over a blue sky from horizon to horizon, turning around at the horizon and flying back to the other horizon, leaving a continous white smokey trail with a bend in it at one of the horizons, now what's that about? pilot forgot he'd left the oven on? Furthermore I have seen these trails at 4,000 feet as I have explained to you previosuly.

Little Fish...with all due respect do not challenge me, and do not say silly things about me hijacking a thread about chemtrails. Iasked a pertinent question. If this is your best answer than there's no point in discussing this nonsense.

I am a pilot who's experience is much greater than your's will ever be. If the likes of me are too hard to take...then leave. Otherwise, expect me, every once in a while to challenge you.

I said show me. You haven't.

I've seen connies at 4000 feet and below...let me show you one at ground level:

It's not special...it's natural.

If you think chemicals are being sprayed, you're sadly mistaken.

[Englishgent]

He means that is the result the next few days, after the trails have dissipated.

Hmmm Surely, after a few days a completely different weather system has moved in.

[_Only]

Little Fish...with all due respect do not challenge me, and do not say silly things about me hijacking a thread about chemtrails. Iasked a pertinent question. If this is your best answer than there's no point in discussing this nonsense.

I am a pilot who's experience is much greater than your's will ever be. If the likes of me are too hard to take...then leave. Otherwise, expect me, every once in a while to challenge you.

I said show me. You haven't.

I've seen connies at 4000 feet and below...let me show you one at ground level:

It's not special...it's natural.

If you think chemicals are being sprayed, you're sadly mistaken.

That's a fine picture of a trail coming out of a plane, but what all us layman are wondering, is why many jets fly by over our heads, and leave no trail, or a faint one for a very short period, and why some leave a trail that expands out, and lasts all day, before dissipating.

[Englishgent]

That's a fine picture of a trail coming out of a plane, but what all us layman are wondering, is why many jets fly by over our heads, and leave no trail, or a faint one for a very short period, and why some leave a trail that expands out, and lasts all day, before dissipating.

All to do with prevailing weather conditions Jerry

[_Only]

All to do with prevailing weather conditions Jerry

So maybe the odd formations of clouds I see the next day aren't related to odd jet trails, but just natural formations that would appear after certain weather conditions that would allow trails from planes to stick around in the sky awhile.

[Englishgent]

So maybe the odd formations of clouds I see the next day aren't related to odd jet trails, but just natural formations that would appear after certain weather conditions that would allow trails from planes to stick around in the sky awhile.

I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that contrails seen on one day would still be visible, even in a different form the following day. The weather is constantly changing. Sometimes cloud formations stick around if there is no wind at the cloud formation level but that in itself would be unusual specially overnight when temperatures drop. It's like saying that the cloud (say cumulus) you see today is the same but different (say stratus) the following day. It snt.

Lets assume for one minute that a contrail is actually a chemtrail capable of sticking around for a few hours and changing into another cloud formation. This new cloud formation is highly unlikely to appear where the chemtrail originally was. It will have moved some considerable miles away due to the wind. Just because its a calm day at ground level does not mean there is no wind as you gain altitude.

I have watched contrails change their shape over a period of time as they drift across the sky. Some will spread out, some will break up into smaller sections and some just appear to dissolve. Some will join with moisture rising in thermals and mingle with new clouds. This does not mean the actual contrail is making that cloud.

After all, contrails are mostly water vapour.

I hope this all makes sense to you lol. Weather is a very compex thing and even a meteorologist will tell you they dont know everything. If they did we would get accurate weather forecasts

[oly]

I would suggest that it is highly unlikely that contrails seen on one day would still be visible, even in a different form the following day. The weather is constantly changing. Sometimes cloud formations stick around if there is no wind at the cloud formation level but that in itself would be unusual specially overnight when temperatures drop. It's like saying that the cloud (say cumulus) you see today is the same but different (say stratus) the following day. It snt.

Lets assume for one minute that a contrail is actually a chemtrail capable of sticking around for a few hours and changing into another cloud formation. This new cloud formation is highly unlikely to appear where the chemtrail originally was. It will have moved some considerable miles away due to the wind. Just because its a calm day at ground level does not mean there is no wind as you gain altitude.

I have watched contrails change their shape over a period of time as they drift across the sky. Some will spread out, some will break up into smaller sections and some just appear to dissolve. Some will join with moisture rising in thermals and mingle with new clouds. This does not mean the actual contrail is making that cloud.

After all, contrails are mostly water vapour.

I hope this all makes sense to you lol. Weather is a very compex thing and even a meteorologist will tell you they dont know everything. If they did we would get accurate weather forecasts

It's obvious something unusual is happening in both pictures. Why are you saying its perfectly normal? You are appearing like you got some agenda

[oly]

Little Fish...with all due respect do not challenge me, and do not say silly things about me hijacking a thread about chemtrails. Iasked a pertinent question. If this is your best answer than there's no point in discussing this nonsense.

I am a pilot who's experience is much greater than your's will ever be. If the likes of me are too hard to take...then leave. Otherwise, expect me, every once in a while to challenge you.

I said show me. You haven't.

I've seen connies at 4000 feet and below...let me show you one at ground level:

It's not special...it's natural.

If you think chemicals are being sprayed, you're sadly mistaken.

Why the attitude? If you were a pilot you'd know something fishy was happening, then getting shirty makes it all the more fffishy

[oly]

Yeah, I was aware of that general idea, but too afraid to entertain it, because people jump on you, basically calling you an idiot, or crazy, for thinking it could be a possible explanation.

edit - fixed quote

Yeah it's how certain groups try to shape public opinion these days. Hire twonks to spout abuse, ridicule, "facts", whatever to try to intimidate normal people into believing utter crap, or at least not to question it.

A lot of it too. Look up "netvocates".

Edited December 16, 2011 by oly