162,000 killed in Iraq war: NGO

[bee]

.

Well......I'm not happy about Britain's invovement in all this. Specifically the Iraq War under the political leadership

of Tony Blair and the destruction of Libya under the political leadership of David Cameron.

Where is Honour?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honour

Honour or honor (see spelling differences; from the Latin word honos, honoris) is an abstract concept entailing a perceived quality of worthiness and respectability that affects both the social standing and the self-evaluation of an individual or corporate body such as a family, school, regiment or nation. Accordingly, individuals (or corporate bodies) are assigned worth and stature based on the harmony of their actions with a specific code of honour, and the moral code of the society at large.

Why has it been engineered that our standard of living depends on world conflict and not co-operation?

I remember when the second Gulf (Iraq) war began and on the TV we were shown Baghdad being bombed, on fire,

flames and smoke...and I just knew it was wrong (and heartbreaking) and I thought of all the people there and what they must be going through.

Another memory of that 'beginning'...was a tent full of American soldiers dying when one of their number (who must have

been an undercover Iraq/Islam sympathiser) rolled a grenade into their midst.

And Libya...don't get me started on Libya. I am disgusted with what happened there and British involvement.

Again...where is Honour?

A short video with an analysis on 'The Arab Spring'...

[bee]

162,000 my ass. We murdered way more innocent Iraqies then that.

There are lots of facts and figures in this link...and here's one extract..

http://usliberals.about.com/od/homelandsecurit1/a/IraqNumbers.htm

A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualties have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

[Black Red Devil]

More credible NGO's than IBC place the figure up to 10 times higher than 162,000. ORB & The Lancet place the figure between 600,000 to over 1 million. Somewhere in between lies the truth. Definitely IBC figures are inadeguately short and they recognise it themselves on their website My link.

Edited January 5, 2012 by BlackRedLittleDevil

[Black Red Devil]

and then we have the matter of Iraq switching to the Euro for it's oil export...which didn't go down well,

as you might imagine.

http://www.energybul...n.net/node/7707

Looks like so called Weapons of Mass Destruction and saving the people of Iraq from a 'tyrant'....was BS.

It was more about destabilizing the Middle East and saving the US economy..?

Well, consider this, My link.

Seems like these Arab tyrants just don't know when to shut up and stop pushing the issues against the US petrodollar.

[Corp]

80% seems about right for modern conflicts. For all those who think of America as the focus of all evil in the world: I hope that if you get the chance to experience an alternative in your lifetimes you will be honest enough to admit you were wrong.

They likely won't, they'll just find a way to blame the whole situation on America.

[bee]

Well, consider this, My link.

thanks...I've seen that before when I was doing my thread in the Conspiracy forum...

R.I.P Gadaffi - The other side of the story >>> http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=216431&st=0&p=4096127&fromsearch=1entry4096127

Seems like these Arab tyrants just don't know when to shut up and stop pushing the issues against the US petrodollar.

I know....

Now I can understand why Western Leaders wish to keep the ball in our court, but I am of the opinion that

this should be done with honour and responsibilty....and fair play.

Of course...the playing field could be leveled somewhat if various applications of 'free energy' were to be commercialized

and made widely available for all...but...there's not much profit in that for the 'big hitters'.

...for those who make outrageous profit from banking, oil and war.

.

[Black Red Devil]

I know....

Now I can understand why Western Leaders wish to keep the ball in our court, but I am of the opinion that

this should be done with honour and responsibilty....and fair play.

Of course...the playing field could be leveled somewhat if various applications of 'free energy' were to be commercialized

and made widely available for all...but...there's not much profit in that for the 'big hitters'.

...for those who make outrageous profit from banking, oil and war.

.

I was actually being sarcastic in my opinion that these tyrants should shut up and play the game, but you raised a good point and a swag of questions. Personally, I've been highly critical of the way the west has been conducting it's business in the ME for the last 70 odd years.

Is it just pure coincidence that the west has been picking a fight with Iran since 1979, since the Islamists overthrew the Shah and kicked out all international oil investors who shared 50% of oil production in the country under the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in favor of the National Iranian Oil Company, a Govt owned corporation? Is it pure coincidence that hostilities have intensified since Iran has asked all it's petroleum customers to exchange payments in non US dollar currencies? Similar in principal to Ghaddafi's bold move with the Gold Dinar? Then you have Saddam making major oil deals in 2002 before the invasion, with the Russians (mainly), Chinese, French (easy to understand why they didn't initially support a coalition force against Iraq) and others, leaving the US out in the lurch? Here's an article at the time from the Economist My link.

All just pure coincidence? Then again, if these tyrants were permitted to "rattle the market" at their convenience, how would this have affected the livelihood of people living in the west? Is it a case of "Mors Tua Vita Mea" and we should just play gullible, accept and close a blind eye on the deceit, lies, hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, just so we can live a better life? Then again, what can we do when even the biggest proven lie in this century (WMD) caused something between 600,000 to over a million deaths and the perpetrators of such a lie have gone unpunished to this day, probably not feeling at all guilty, living a normal life and most likely, racking in the benefits of their "master plan"?

Edited January 7, 2012 by BlackRedLittleDevil

[bee]

I was actually being sarcastic in my opinion that these tyrants should shut up and play the game,

yes I know...my first bit of the post was joining in with your sarcasm...

but you raised a good point and a swag of questions. Personally, I've been highly critical of the way the west has been conducting it's business in the ME for the last 70 odd years.

in all honesty, although I was aware something wasn't right with it all...it's only in the past handful

of years, since I've been heavily involved with the internet and forums etc that I've been getting to

grips with the nitty gritty of it all

Is it just pure coincidence that the west has been picking a fight with Iran since 1979, since the Islamists overthrew the Shah and kicked out all international oil investors who shared 50% of oil production in the country under the Anglo-Iranian Oil Company in favor of the National Iranian Oil Company, a Govt owned corporation? Is it pure coincidence that hostilities have intensified since Iran has asked all it's petroleum customers to exchange payments in non US dollar currencies? Similar in principal to Ghaddafi's bold move with the Gold Dinar? Then you have Saddam making major oil deals in 2002 before the invasion, with the Russians (mainly), Chinese, French (easy to understand why they didn't initially support a coalition force against Iraq) and others, leaving the US out in the lurch? Here's an article at the time from the Economist My link.

no it isn't a co-incidence, IMO....just Iran, North Korea and Cuba now who are now the only ones out of the 'World Bank' loop...?

We can all see the political posturing regarding Iran taking place now. North Korea has it's new leader and the

poison is being layed...regarding the nuclear weapons, and I read somewhere that apparently Kim Jong Un is suspected

of torturing small animals as a child.....oh really.... makes me think of the false accusations of Iraqi

soldiers flinging babies out of incubators in Kuwait.

Maybe Cuba is safe and a deal was done regarding Guatanamo Bay??

All just pure coincidence? Then again, if these tyrants were permitted to "rattle the market" at their convenience, how would this have affected the livelihood of people living in the west? Is it a case of "Mors Tua Vita Mea" and we should just play gullible, accept and close a blind eye on the deceit, lies, hundreds of thousands of innocent deaths, just so we can live a better life?

I absolutely take your points above and have thought about this myself....especially when I was doing

my RIP Gaddafi thread. Was I biting the hand that fed me? Keeps me in relative comfort? The morals of

it all are uncomfortable. Am I a pampered slave? What's the alternative to enjoying the crumbs off the

table of the rich and SUPER rich? Will 'they' bring down society as we know it before they will relinquish power?

I know you understand what I'm saying.

This is why I brought up the question of 'free energy'...and I am comforted to know that there are lots

and lots of people (many influencial?) out there who understand the moral/economic/practical aspects of the changes that are

required...but here we are in the present and all the stuff that is going on in the Middle East (and Libya/Africa).

Like some unstoppable nightmare......jeeeeezus....has a deal been done with al Qaeda? You can have the Middle East

if you stop using terrorism in the West?.....I have even considered this. With the proviso that the different

nations are all in the same World Bank or something...(and anyway this would back-fire like the Russia v al qaeda thing)

I'm rambling now and don't want this post too be too long...

just one last thing for now. How ironic and heartbreaking it was...that as the Occupy Movement was getting into

full swing and calling for Participatory Democracy....Libya, who under Gaddafi was run by a participatory democracy....

(the Jamahiriya)...was being destroyed and Gaddafi demonized.

Then again, what can we do when even the biggest proven lie in this century (WMD) caused something between 600,000 to over a million deaths and the perpetrators of such a lie have gone unpunished to this day, probably not feeling at all guilty, living a normal life and most likely, racking in the benefits of their "master plan"?

I hear you

.

[Black Red Devil]

Maybe Cuba is safe and a deal was done regarding Guatanamo Bay??

Cuba hasn't been a concern since the collapse of the Soviet Union and even more so in recent times since Castro retired at the ripe age of 82, an absolute miracle to have survived that long. At his 80th birthday he said,

I'm really happy to reach 80. I never expected it, not least having a neighbor – the greatest power in the world – trying to kill me every day.

I absolutely take your points above and have thought about this myself....especially when I was doing

my RIP Gaddafi thread. Was I biting the hand that fed me? Keeps me in relative comfort? The morals of

it all are uncomfortable. Am I a pampered slave? What's the alternative to enjoying the crumbs off the

table of the rich and SUPER rich? Will 'they' bring down society as we know it before they will relinquish power?

IMO, the banks and major corporations won't go down without a bang and when/if they do, a lot of people in the world will suffer before society picks itself up and regenerates a new sociopoliticeconomic system. Also, what system?

This is why I brought up the question of 'free energy'...and I am comforted to know that there are lots

and lots of people (many influencial?) out there who understand the moral/economic/practical aspects of the changes that are

required...but here we are in the present and all the stuff that is going on in the Middle East (and Libya/Africa).

Like some unstoppable nightmare......jeeeeezus....has a deal been done with al Qaeda? You can have the Middle East

if you stop using terrorism in the West?.....I have even considered this. With the proviso that the different

nations are all in the same World Bank or something...(and anyway this would back-fire like the Russia v al qaeda thing)

I'm rambling now and don't want this post too be too long...

Maybe it's time to give Marxism in it's pure form a go, after Communism, Socialism (what is Socialism anyway, both left wing and right wing idealists proclaim to be socialists?), Fascism and Capitalism and all the other derivative political parties have weaknesses and/or have failed our society in one way or another?

just one last thing for now. How ironic and heartbreaking it was...that as the Occupy Movement was getting into

full swing and calling for Participatory Democracy....Libya, who under Gaddafi was run by a participatory democracy....

(the Jamahiriya)...was being destroyed and Gaddafi demonized.

Indeed.

[+and-then]

Maybe it's time to give Marxism in it's pure form a go, after Communism, Socialism (what is Socialism anyway, both left wing and right wing idealists proclaim to be socialists?), Fascism and Capitalism and all the other derivative political parties have weaknesses and/or have failed our society in one way or another?

All forms have failed in one way or another because they all are human endeavors. Question seems to be which has worked best in history. All systems that take away an incentive to hard work and excellence have been less successful than capitalism. There will always be rich/super rich. Treating that group as anathema to humanity is useless IMO. Can the system be made more equitable? Probably, but it won't be done by violence.

[Black Red Devil]

Maybe it's time to give Marxism in it's pure form a go, after Communism, Socialism (what is Socialism anyway, both left wing and right wing idealists proclaim to be socialists?), Fascism and Capitalism and all the other derivative political parties have weaknesses and/or have failed our society in one way or another?

All forms have failed in one way or another because they all are human endeavors. Question seems to be which has worked best in history. All systems that take away an incentive to hard work and excellence have been less successful than capitalism. There will always be rich/super rich. Treating that group as anathema to humanity is useless IMO. Can the system be made more equitable? Probably, but it won't be done by violence.

How does Capitalism favor incentives for hard work and excellence when 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day and when the the poorest 40 percent of the world's population accounts for 5 percent of global income while the richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income?Source

It's not about hard work, it's about opportunity reserved only for the selected few. All Capitalism is doing is favoring the rich private sector corporations and the gap's widening. Below some more figures,

• The world's billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world's population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).
• The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world "rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world's financial assets.
• About 0.13% of the world's population controlled 25% of the world's financial assets in 2004.
• 51 percent of the world's 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.

"Can the system be made more equitable"? The answer isn't "probably", the answer should have been "definitely". Also, I'm not sure what violence you're referring to.

[+and-then]

How does Capitalism favor incentives for hard work and excellence when 80% of humanity lives on less than $10 a day and when the the poorest 40 percent of the world's population accounts for 5 percent of global income while the richest 20 percent accounts for three-quarters of world income?Source

It's not about hard work, it's about opportunity reserved only for the selected few. All Capitalism is doing is favoring the rich private sector corporations and the gap's widening. Below some more figures,

• The world's billionaires — just 497 people (approximately 0.000008% of the world's population) — were worth $3.5 trillion (over 7% of world GDP).
• The total wealth of the top 8.3 million people around the world "rose 8.2 percent to $30.8 trillion in 2004, giving them control of nearly a quarter of the world's financial assets.
• About 0.13% of the world's population controlled 25% of the world's financial assets in 2004.
• 51 percent of the world's 100 hundred wealthiest bodies are corporations.

"Can the system be made more equitable"? The answer isn't "probably", the answer should have been "definitely". Also, I'm not sure what violence you're referring to.

I don't question your statistics nor am I being argumentative. I'm simply saying that capitalism, flawed as it is, is still the best option we've seen historically. If I'm in error I'll gladly learn of the system that has been more beneficial to more people. My allusion to violence was logical in that no one gives up what they consider to be their's by right (the evil billionaires) to taxation or other confiscatory weapons without a fight. it's just human nature. To assume that any economic structure will not have wealthy at the top is illogical. Most wealth has always been controlled by the few in EVERY economic system.

Ta Ta