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Penumbra

Yahweh = Canaanite War God/Cult?

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Abramelin

It could indeed be the English that's confusing to you. You can put something a hell of a lot more ways in English than you could in ancient Egyptian. But then again the same can be said for Dutch or Spanish or most other modern languages, which possess vocabularies much larger than that of ancient Egyptian.

At the same time I can understand the confusion, because there is a subtlety of expression here. On the one hand that tomb wall contains HKA-xAst, which is referring only to the ruler or chieftain of that particular band of migrants; on the other hand, HKA-xAswt came to be a term to describe the sum total of the Syro-Palestinians who had wrested control of Lower Egypt in the Second Intermediate Period.

In my opinion, to keep things simple, it's best to think only of the latter: a group of foreigners who managed to rule a sizable chunk of Egypt for a time.

By the way, how in the hell did you come across that post of mine from Egyptian Dreams? That has to be from more than two years ago.

Boy lovers? No, that's not right. Just borrowing a line from that movie 300. :w00t:

It's a good question and unfortunately I don't have an answer. I've never heard of a special term the Egyptians used for their Ptolemaic overlords, but my training in the language concerns a much earlier period than Ptolemaic times.

As far as I am aware, the term HKA-xAswt is unique to the Second Intermediate Period and the Syro-Palestinians who dominated it. The Egyptians of the time used the term HKA-xAswt merely to stress the fact that foreigners were ruling a large part of Egypt. As I wrote earlier, HKA-xAswt was not used in inscriptional records as often as the generic term "Asiatic."

Don't get too hung up on semantics: HKA-xAswt just means foreign people who control Egypt, and in this case it was used in the Second Intermediate Period. I am not aware of HKA-xAswt being applied to the periods when Libya, Nubia, Assyria, Persia, Macedon, and Rome controlled Egypt.

Man, this is the greatest line I have read in this thread:

"It's a good question and unfortunately I don't have an answer."

From someone who we all think should/could know I am glad you admit you don't.

Btw: I do get 'hung up on semantics' because I have learned that a lot of confusion can arise by even just one wrong letter in a word.

==

How did I find out about your post at "Egyptian Dreams"?

Googling is my speciality, lol.

I simply entered "HKA-xAswt", and voila: a zillion links showed up, I clicked some of the first in Google's list, and there you were.

Oh, and I have Google Toolbar installed.

===

Another thing: I still haven't read any real objection against my idea of those Hyksos being ancient Armenians, with their supreme god/mythical patriarch "Hayk".

The Cimmerians seem to have chased them out of their homeland, and then they fled... south? And hooking up with the Canaanites they met/conquered on their way to the south?

.

Edited by Abramelin

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cormac mac airt
My definitions are NOT effectively the same, and you apparently not getting that should make you have some serious doubts about what you claim to know.

Yes they ARE effectively the same in English, with one slight exception. That being that the term wouldn't apply to an Egyptian ruler as Egypt ruled over much of the Levant at various times in its history. Therefore the term would have been redundant. Hyksos was only used for non-Egyptians during a specific period in Egypts history.

Oh yeah, didn't the Nubians rule over Egypt while it was still predominantly Egyptian?

Yes, and as I said Nubia was known as Ta-Seti. Also called The Land of the Bow.

cormac

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Abramelin

Yes they ARE effectively the same in English, with one slight exception. That being that the term wouldn't apply to an Egyptian ruler as Egypt ruled over much of the Levant at various times in its history. Therefore the term would have been redundant. Hyksos was only used for non-Egyptians during a specific period in Egypts history.

Yes, and as I said Nubia was known as Ta-Seti. Also called The Land of the Bow.

cormac

So the Hyksos were called Hyksos because they were foreigners, but all the other foreigners ruling Egypt were not seen as/called foreigners?

How likely is that?

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cormac mac airt

So the Hyksos were called Hyksos because they were foreigners, but all the other foreigners ruling Egypt were not seen as/called foreigners?

How likely is that?

The term was used at a specific point in Egyptian history Abe. And then never again.

To put your question to you, closer to home, why do we call you Dutch and not peoples of the Swifterbant Culture? Obvious answer, because the term only applies to a specific group of peoples during a specific point in time. What you're looking for is an all-inclusive usage throughout Egyptian history. That usage doesn't exist.

cormac

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So the Hyksos were called Hyksos because they were foreigners, but all the other foreigners ruling Egypt were not seen as/called foreigners?

How likely is that?

They did not call them Hyksos, as that was a Greek adaptation of HKA-xAswt, which is the word. Just as as Hr mDdw, mDd(w) was called Kheops in Greek.

It gets us nowhere to start interpreting the Greek aberrations as they don't mean anything, they are just testimony of the Greeks incapable of Egytptian pronunciation.

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kmt_sesh

Man, this is the greatest line I have read in this thread:

"It's a good question and unfortunately I don't have an answer."

From someone who we all think should/could know I am glad you admit you don't.

Btw: I do get 'hung up on semantics' because I have learned that a lot of confusion can arise by even just one wrong letter in a word.

==

How did I find out about your post at "Egyptian Dreams"?

Googling is my speciality, lol.

I simply entered "HKA-xAswt", and voila: a zillion links showed up, I clicked some of the first in Google's list, and there you were.

Oh, and I have Google Toolbar installed.

===

Another thing: I still haven't read any real objection against my idea of those Hyksos being ancient Armenians, with their supreme god/mythical patriarch "Hayk".

The Cimmerians seem to have chased them out of their homeland, and then they fled... south? And hooking up with the Canaanites they met/conquered on their way to the south?

.

LOL Believe me, I do not know everything! It's actually been part of my training to admit when I do not know the answer to a question I've been asked, and then to say I'll be glad to do more research.

Well, I took a break to do some simple research. I came home early today anyway, because of a big winter storm in Chicago, so at least for today I have the luxury to sit around and goof off. You asked earlier about why the Syro-Palestinians of the Second Intermediate Period were called HKA-xAswt while the Libyans, Nubians, Persians, Macedonians, and Romans who would each in time rule over Egypt in later periods were not referred to as HKA-xAswt. I may have found something of an answer.

In my library is a book by John Van Seters called Hyksos: A New Investigation. The book was published in 1966 so the investigation is not so "new" anymore. The unfortunate fact is, however, that there isn't much literature on the Hyksos compared to other foreigners who ruled over Egypt, so it's an important book. It's also extremely well researched. And I know how old the book is because it was published in 1966 and that's the year I was born. So that's really old. :lol:

Anyway, Van Seters goes into considerable detail on the presence of Asiatics (people of the Levant) who had migrated into Egypt by the Middle Kingdom, who traded with the Egyptians, who joined their expeditions to the Sinai as workers in the turquoise mines, or who were slaves in Egypt. I needn't bog us down in a lot of superfluous detail, even if it's my tendency to do so in my posts, but suffice it to say a common ancient Egyptian term for Asiatics by the Middle Kingdom was xAstyw. Now, everyone here should immediately see the similarity between that term and the xAswt portion of the term HKA-xAswt, from which Manetho rendered "Hyksos." Van Seters explains that xAstyw is a generic form of xAst, which in one sense means "foreign country" but in a more general sense was used simply to mean "foreigner," without any particular country intended (1966: 108). But during the Middle Kingdom and beyond the term xAswt was used to refer specifically to Asiatics. Hence, HKA-xAswt referred to these Asiatics alone and was not used to refer to other foreigners.

I hope this is of some help. In truth, Abramelin, the study of ancient Egyptian lexicon in reference to foreigners can be pretty complicated. As far as the Levant is concerned, for example, HKA-xAswt is probably the least-employed term in contemporary inscriptions. In most cases the Egyptians called them Asiatics (aAmu), but they could also employ the term Canaanites (knanu). Other terms such as rTnw and styw or sttyw are also recorded, depending on the specific area of the Levant intended. Terminology also changed according to time period. And this is only Canaan, mind you. The terminology applied to Nubia is arguably even more complicated.

This is why I said you shouldn't get too hung up on semantics. You're Dutch and I'm American like cormac, and we're all discussing terminology from a long-dead Afro-Semitic language. And we're scraping only the very tippy-top of the proverbial iceberg!

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I hope this is of some help. In truth, Abramelin, the study of ancient Egyptian lexicon in reference to foreigners can be pretty complicated. As far as the Levant is concerned, for example, HKA-xAswt is probably the least-employed term in contemporary inscriptions. In most cases the Egyptians called them Asiatics (aAmu), but they could also employ the term Canaanites (knanu). Other terms such as rTnw and styw or sttyw are also recorded, depending on the specific area of the Levant intended. Terminology also changed according to time period. And this is only Canaan, mind you. The terminology applied to Nubia is arguably even more complicated.

And just because they have not done so it is my suspicion that it was not a single tribe that overran Egypt but, given a Canaanite as first ruler, a general discontent of the foreigners working in Egypt who called the Asian warlords in for help to get some attention from the ruling classes. Instead of some attention they got a, albeit, short lived kingdom.

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kmt_sesh

...

Another thing: I still haven't read any real objection against my idea of those Hyksos being ancient Armenians, with their supreme god/mythical patriarch "Hayk".

The Cimmerians seem to have chased them out of their homeland, and then they fled... south? And hooking up with the Canaanites they met/conquered on their way to the south?

.

I wanted to address this in a separate post. I thought I had covered this in adequate detail in earlier posts. For one thing, the Armenian culture being referenced comes from the Early Iron Age, not the Middle Bronze and Late Bronze Age, when the Hyksos existed. But more importantly is the material culture and the careful analyses of archaeological finds, nearly all of which ties the Hyksos closely with the cultures and traditions of contemporary Canaan. In the same book I mentioned in my previous post, Van Seters also covers some good information on names of known Hyksos peoples, and makes the convincing case that these names were Western Semitic.

It's altogether possible a relatively small number of Hurrians and others intermingled with the Hyksos, but the sum total of evidence clarifies the majority of the Hyksos population were Syro-Palestinians. I should clarify that to say "foreign population" because, of course, the Hyksos would've ruled over many native Egyptians in Lower Egypt.

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kmt_sesh

And just because they have not done so it is my suspicion that it was not a single tribe that overran Egypt but, given a Canaanite as first ruler, a general discontent of the foreigners working in Egypt who called the Asian warlords in for help to get some attention from the ruling classes. Instead of some attention they got a, albeit, short lived kingdom.

This is a good point. For one thing, ancient Canaan was not a unified or cohesive kingdom or state. It was in fact a wide mixture of tribes, albeit tribes speaking dialects of Western Semitic. Also telling is that while Egypt in the Middle Kingdom seems to have enjoyed a fairly friendly and lucrative relationship with Canaanite polities, the same may not have been true following on the collapse of the Middle Kingdom. Beginning in Dynasty 13 there is evidence of increased military violence in Syro-Palestine, and the number of Asiatics becoming slaves in Egypt increased on a noticeable scale. Most slaves in Egypt were in fact prisoners of war.

So it's altogether possible these waves of migrating Asiatics harbored some degree of ill will toward their Egyptian "hosts," and as a martial people to begin with, they were only too happy to set up their own little kingdom in Egypt.

You can almost see them flipping the bird at the disgruntled native Egyptians of Thebes and shouting, "Look at us now, baby!"

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Abramelin

They did not call them Hyksos, as that was a Greek adaptation of HKA-xAswt, which is the word. Just as as Hr mDdw, mDd(w) was called Kheops in Greek.

It gets us nowhere to start interpreting the Greek aberrations as they don't mean anything, they are just testimony of the Greeks incapable of Egytptian pronunciation.

Hm, I thought it was obvious I meant HKA-xAswt, but as that word doesn't look like much, I used "Hyksos" in the meaning of "foreign ruler".

So to say it differently: the Eyptians had a name for these guys from Syria-Palestine: foreign rulers (or ruling foreigners or whatever).

But weren't these HKA-xAswt, these Syria-Palestinians already known as Canaanites or "Knn" or something?

Kmt-sesh said there was another, more general name for these people of the east, and that was "Asians". What is that in AE, Kmt?

+++

EDIT:

I read the posts in reverse order; Kmt already answered the last question:

"I hope this is of some help. In truth, Abramelin, the study of ancient Egyptian lexicon in reference to foreigners can be pretty complicated. As far as the Levant is concerned, for example, HKA-xAswt is probably the least-employed term in contemporary inscriptions. In most cases the Egyptians called them Asiatics (aAmu), but they could also employ the term Canaanites (knanu). Other terms such as rTnw and styw or sttyw are also recorded, depending on the specific area of the Levant intended. Terminology also changed according to time period. And this is only Canaan, mind you. The terminology applied to Nubia is arguably even more complicated."

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Abramelin

I wanted to address this in a separate post. I thought I had covered this in adequate detail in earlier posts. For one thing, the Armenian culture being referenced comes from the Early Iron Age, not the Middle Bronze and Late Bronze Age, when the Hyksos existed. But more importantly is the material culture and the careful analyses of archaeological finds, nearly all of which ties the Hyksos closely with the cultures and traditions of contemporary Canaan. In the same book I mentioned in my previous post, Van Seters also covers some good information on names of known Hyksos peoples, and makes the convincing case that these names were Western Semitic.

It's altogether possible a relatively small number of Hurrians and others intermingled with the Hyksos, but the sum total of evidence clarifies the majority of the Hyksos population were Syro-Palestinians. I should clarify that to say "foreign population" because, of course, the Hyksos would've ruled over many native Egyptians in Lower Egypt.

The reason I started about Aratta, Urartu, Armenia and that "Hayk" god/patriarch is because I really did read a long time ago that thse Hyksos may have come from that area.

Of course - you know it - I couldn't find that source online, so I tried my own thing with the original AE name.

But here is something that might point to that source/book:

The Armenian Highland shows traces of settlement from the Neolithic era. The Shulaveri-Shomu culture of the central Transcaucasus region is one of the earliest known prehistoric culture in the area, carbon-dated to roughly 6000 - 4000 BC. Another early culture in the area is the Kura-Araxes culture, assigned to the period of ca. 4000 - 2200 BC, succeeded by the Trialeti culture (ca. 2200 - 1500 BC).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prehistoric_Armenia

The Kura-Araxes culture or the Early trans-Caucasian culture, was a civilization that existed from 3400 BC until about 2000 BC.[1] The earliest evidence for this culture is found on the Ararat plain; thence it spread to Georgia by 3000 BC, and during the next millennium it proceeded westward to the Erzurum plain, southwest to Cilicia, and to the southeast into an area below the Urmia basin and Lake Van, down to the borders of present day Syria. Altogether, the early Trans-Caucasian culture, at its greatest spread, enveloped a vast area approximately 1000 km by 500 km.

The name of the culture is derived from the Kura and Araxes river valleys. Its territory corresponds to parts of modern Armenia, Georgia, Azerbaijan, Chechnya, Dagestan, Ingushetia and North Ossetia.[3] It may have given rise to the later Khirbet Kerak ware culture found in Syria and Canaan after the fall of the Akkadian Empire.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kura-Araxes_culture

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khirbet_Kerak

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trialeti_culture

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dest

So there were Religons before the Hinduism?

srry i dont really get this O.O

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cormac mac airt

So there were Religons before the Hinduism?

srry i dont really get this O.O

Yes there were religions before Hinduism. Hinduism is just believed to be the oldest continuous religion carried down from ancient times to the present. As far as age, the religions of Ancient Egypt and Sumer predate Hinduism be a considerable margin.

cormac

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Abramelin

So there were Religons before the Hinduism?

srry i dont really get this O.O

And I don't get that abbreviation.

Is it too much of a bother to spell it out in full?

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kmt_sesh

And I don't get that abbreviation.

Is it too much of a bother to spell it out in full?

LOL I was wondering the same thing. Sucks being old. I don't know the jargon "kids" use these days.

Wrap me in a warm shawl and serve me some hot tea in a comfy chair.

Edited by kmt_sesh

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granpa

looks like 2 wide eyes to me.

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EdwardTibolt

okay, i was reading your post about Yahweh. i dont know abou a war god cult but that is the first name of god. it comes from the 22,000 clay tablets they found in (sorry but i can't spell it properly) sa-mer-e-a. they perdate everything we know about our history. and they go into adam and eve but under other names. they also talk about how Yahweh spliced earths indiguness life forms DNA with theirs to make us. when all is said nd done they tell you god is from another planet. and yes this is all fact. i mean about the clay tablets. i wasn't there to see Yahweh himself. but they said they predate everything by thousands of years. beleave it or not i don't care. just helping out

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Big Bad Voodoo

Not quite, Yahwe was a weather god , see Kittel in The New Schaff, Vol. XII, p. 472, of the proto-Bedouin tribes of the Sinai.

Never heard. Thats interesting. Any link or maybe own words about it.

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Big Bad Voodoo

In any case it's true that Judaism did not begin as a form of monotheism. In fact I would argue that the religion was first a henotheism, where one god is preferred but the worship of other gods is acknowledged as equally valid. By all accounts this is what was happening in the Early Iron Age in Judah, when the Hebrews were a nascent kingdom. William Dever (2005) presents the convincing case that the original Old Testament, when first written down in its earliest form, was a kind of "book religion" designed by the ruling elite of Jerusalem to codify, develop, and maintain their power base. To be sure, based on the material culture and the sum total of archaeological evidence from this early period, the average farmer living out in the sticks was venerating Yahweh but other deities, too. For example, it's likely that originally in the Hebrew culture Yahweh had a consort, the Canaanite goddess Asherah. Some early Hebraic vessels bear inscriptions stating "Yahweh and his Asherah."

Monolatrism is how the religion would soon develop, but in all likelihood Judaism did not become true monotheism until the post-exilic period.

Can you explain more how it moves from henotheism to Monotheism.

Is there more evidence for Henotheism then above mentioned vessel?

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Never heard. Thats interesting. Any link or maybe own words about it.

Don't know if you have a library handy that also carries English titles.There is a lot.

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