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Penumbra

Yahweh = Canaanite War God/Cult?

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Abramelin

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coptic_Gospel_of_the_Egyptians

It also contains a hymn, parts of which are unusual in being apparently meaningless sequences of vowels (thought to be a representation of early Christian glossolalia), although the vowels of the final paragraph (u aei eis aei ei o ei ei os ei) can be partitioned to read (in Greek) who exists as Son for ever and ever. You are what you are, you are who you are.

I quoted from one of the Nag Hammadi books because your explanation of how to read YHWH made me think of those 'glossolalies' in the Gospel of the Egyptians.

It could well be that what we read in that gospel is nothing but their way to pronounce YHWH.

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Abramelin

You said it, lol.

Oral traditions as well as other sources dismissed too. Usually by amateurs who don't understand how to distinguish authenticity from oral traditions but also have no clue on Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, factual history, etc. Basically, it's like you coming to me to learn or understand Einstien, I can shed some light on it, but if you don't go to the sources yourself, you wont have a full or correct unserstanding of Einstien. ;)

Are you able to distinguish between authenticity and oral traditions?

And how do we know you are able to do that?

Bickering is easy - believe me, I do know, lol - but what we all love is links and quotes.

Show links to sources, and people will take you more seriously.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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granpa

I quoted from one of the Nag Hammadi books because your explanation of how to read YHWH made me think of those 'glossolalies' in the Gospel of the Egyptians.

It could well be that what we read in that gospel is nothing but their way to pronounce YHWH.

thats how I took it.

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The Puzzler

if we equate YHWH with Zeus then equate Zeus with Baal then it makes sense.

but its probably better to equate YHWH with Chronos instead.

the canaanite equivalent would presumably be El_Elyon

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/El_Elyon

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/El_%28god%29

Interesting thought - I've read, but it doesn't sound like the etymology fits, that Jehovah, YHVH is similar sounding to Jove (Zeus) so may have some sort of connection - I'm still out on that one.

The translation[77] of Clement's Stromata in Volume II of the classic Ante-Nicene Fathers series renders this as:

"... Further, the mystic name of four letters which was affixed to those alone to whom the "adytum" was accessible, is called Jave, which is interpreted, 'Who is and shall be.' The name of God, too [i.e., θεὸς], among the Greeks contains four letters."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetragrammaton

Considering Jove or Zeus was apparently bought in from Libya as Amun, who was a Ram God, it's a bit likely imo. He might have originally been an Ethiopian/Libyan God as Amun the Ram God, considering Ethiopians conducted very ancient type rites such as circumcism and gave their first born and most loved to him, a few changes and who knows....you have this odd Aethiopia too, said to be at Joppa, so why wouldn't this ancient religion have spread around in various forms to these areas, I reckon it could. Only Phoenicians/Syrians, Egyptians and Ethiopians practised circumcism according to Herodotus, to me, this gives a kind of link to them. Not to mention Ethiopians/Kushites had massively ancient moral and social values of a God like nature that was apparently imparted onto the Egyptians and others, and that the Ark of the Covenant may be in Ethiopia adds to the intrigue, all imo, as usual.

PS: and what about those Ionians hey?

Edited by The Puzzler

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granpa

well I would first look to equating YHWH with horus and looking for an etymology in ahura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura

Avestan ahura derives from Indo-Iranian *asura, also attested in an Indian context as RigVedic asura. As suggested by the similarity to the Old Norse æsir, Indo-Iranian *asura may have an even earlier Indo-European root

asura as I have already said comes from osiris which means 'many eyed'.

Edited by granpa

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granpa

sus means horse in hebrew

I can also tell you that there are a lot of words that sound like 'centaur'.

centimani = 100 handers

satyr

saturn

satariel

the norse god Tyr

Edited by granpa

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granpa

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=Zeus

supreme god of the ancient Greeks, 1706, from Gk., from PIE *dewos- "god" (cf. L. deus "god," O. Pers. daiva- "demon, evil god," O.C.S. deivai, Skt. deva-), from base *dyeu- "to gleam, to shine;" also the root of words for "sky" and "day" (see diurnal). The god-sense is originally "shining," but "whether as originally sun-god or as lightener" is not now clear

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Deva_%28Hinduism%29

Sanskrit devá- derives from Indo-Iranian *devá- which in turn descends from the Proto-Indo-European (PIE) word, *deiwos, originally an adjective meaning "celestial" or "shining", which is a PIE (not synchronic Sanskrit) vrddhi derivative from the root *diw meaning "to shine", especially as the daylit sky. The feminine form of PIE *deiwos is PIE *deiwih2, which descends into Indic languages as devi, in that context meaning "goddess".

The Avestan cognate of Vedic devá- is daēva (daēuua), which has a pejorative connotation. In later Zoroastrianism, daevas are noxious creatures, but this meaning is not evident in the oldest texts.

Also deriving from PIE *deiwos, and thus cognates of deva, are Lithuanian Dievas (Latvian Dievs, Prussian Deiwas), Germanic Tiwaz (seen in English "Tuesday") and Latin deus "god" and divus "divine", from which the English words "divine", "deity", French "dieu", Portuguese "deus", Spanish "dios" and Italian "dio", also "Zeys/Ζεύς" - "Dias/Δίας", the Greek father of the gods, are derived.

Related but distinct is the PIE proper name *Dyeus which while from the same root, may originally have referred to the sky, and hence to "Father Sky", the chief God of the Indo-European pantheon, continued in Sanskrit Dyaus.

Edited by granpa

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kmt_sesh

well I would first look to equating YHWH with horus and looking for an etymology in ahura

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahura

Avestan ahura derives from Indo-Iranian *asura, also attested in an Indian context as RigVedic asura. As suggested by the similarity to the Old Norse æsir, Indo-Iranian *asura may have an even earlier Indo-European root

asura as I have already said comes from osiris which means 'many eyed'.

Osiris was an Egyptian deity and of no discernible cultural relation to the peoples mentioned in your post, specifically Semites and Indo-Europeans. What is your evidence that the name Osiris (transliterated as Asir or wsir from the ancient Egyptian) means "many eyed"? I would argue against this an am prepared to support my argument, but I'd like to see the evidence from which you've derived the idea of "many eyed."

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cormac mac airt

Osiris was an Egyptian deity and of no discernible cultural relation to the peoples mentioned in your post, specifically Semites and Indo-Europeans. What is your evidence that the name Osiris (transliterated as Asir or wsir from the ancient Egyptian) means "many eyed"? I would argue against this an am prepared to support my argument, but I'd like to see the evidence from which you've derived the idea of "many eyed."

Kmt_sesh, see the following, Page 9:

Osiris Vol 1 Budge

Yep, E. A. Wallis Budge. :rolleyes:

cormac

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granpa

the many-eyed asura are teh counterparts of the 100-handers

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hekatonkheires

Varuna is also seen as having many eyes, and consequently as all-seeing

The stars were also said to the represent his many eyes

varuna = Uranus = Osiris

Edited by granpa

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The Puzzler

as for zeus, you were the one telling me that sus was a common ending that apparently meant 'god'.

http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=H5483&t=KJV

If this is directed at me, you're wrong, I never would have said that, because I've never heard of it - I think I might have read a link once saying it meant pig.

But horse is certainly interesting, like Pegasus.

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Leonardo

the many-eyed asura are teh counterparts of the 100-handers

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hekatonkheires

Varuna is also seen as having many eyes, and consequently as all-seeing

The stars were also said to the represent his many eyes

varuna = Uranus = Osiris

When we recognise figures with similar attributes from religions in completely distinct cultures, we are witness to the relgious equivalent of convergent evolution. If you are not familiar with that phenomenon, it is when organisms with no recent/close taxonic relationship separately develop similar morphological features. This is why bats are not birds, even though both have wings.

When applied to religons, this is the case with the vast majority of 'similar deities' present in cultures with no significant links to one another. Thus Varuna is not equal to Ouranos and Osiris, but each 'similar' divine figure should be viewed as an entirely distinct entity developed within entirely distinct cultures.

Edited by Leonardo

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The Puzzler

Well, like I said from your link: "I read that article too. Opens up a tin of...pigs."

Nothing about me saying sus means God. Don't waste your time searching more, I didn't say it, I already knew you meant that conversation, about pigs, never mind. Moving on...

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granpa

Yes. I know you were right. I was admitting you were right by posting that link to my post.

As for the article in teh link, I dont think I ever even read it.

The point was simply that sus is a common ending used in many names.

It no doubt meant something.

probably horse or centaur or god or something.

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The Puzzler

Yes. I know you were right. I was admitting you were right by posting that link to my post.

As for the article in teh link, I dont think I ever even read it.

The point was simply that sus is a common ending used in many names.

It no doubt meant something.

probably horse or centaur or god or something.

Cool, lol something I'm sure. Horse in Hebrew, Pegasus hmmm.

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The Puzzler

When we recognise figures with similar attributes from religions in completely distinct cultures, we are witness to the relgious equivalent of convergent evolution. If you are not familiar with that phenomenon, it is when organisms with no recent/close taxonic relationship separately develop similar morphological features. This is why bats are not birds, even though both have wings.

When applied to religons, this is the case with the vast majority of 'similar deities' present in cultures with no significant links to one another. Thus Varuna is not equal to Ouranos and Osiris, but each 'similar' divine figure should be viewed as an entirely distinct entity developed within entirely distinct cultures.

That is, if you think no culture actually became part of anothers or anyone migrated taking their form of the God with them which changed and morphed as the people changed. There must have been an awful lot of Gods being invented by everyone.

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kmt_sesh

Kmt_sesh, see the following, Page 9:

Osiris Vol 1 Budge

Yep, E. A. Wallis Budge. :rolleyes:

cormac

I found the page. Thanks for the link. I thought this one was a bit wild even for Budge but I see he's referring to an account by Diodorus Siculus, so Budge can be forgiven. The only one more consistently inaccurate than Budge are the Greek writers of late antiquity. :w00t:

I see Diodorus also translates Isis as "ancient," which is no more correct than "many eyed" for Osiris. Perhaps I'm too hard on the Greeks but it entertains me to poke fun at them. The truth is, the accounts of Diodorus and Herodotus and the others might be wildly inaccurate in many cases, but they're all very enjoyable to read. I suppose the main difficulty for the modern reader of these accounts is the ability to distinguish fact from Hellenic bull-flop.

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kmt_sesh

the many-eyed asura are teh counterparts of the 100-handers

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hekatonkheires

Varuna is also seen as having many eyes, and consequently as all-seeing

The stars were also said to the represent his many eyes

varuna = Uranus = Osiris

I pointed it out earlier but "Osiris" is not even the god's name. This is how it came down to us from the Greeks (along with possibly the majority of other names and vocabulary from the ancient Near East). As best as can be reconstructed, in the ancient Egyptian language Osiris' name was Asir or wsir. And while the name of the god usually is in part written hieroglyphically with the eye, the glyph itself has nothing to do with vision or the eyeball itself (at least not in Osiris' name).

Lego-linguistics are best avoided. Thinking two words or names from two completely different cultures and languages must be related because they sort of sound the same, is exceedingly rarely a sound way to approach a linguistic question.

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The Puzzler

I pointed it out earlier but "Osiris" is not even the god's name. This is how it came down to us from the Greeks (along with possibly the majority of other names and vocabulary from the ancient Near East). As best as can be reconstructed, in the ancient Egyptian language Osiris' name was Asir or wsir. And while the name of the god usually is in part written hieroglyphically with the eye, the glyph itself has nothing to do with vision or the eyeball itself (at least not in Osiris' name).

Lego-linguistics are best avoided. Thinking two words or names from two completely different cultures and languages must be related because they sort of sound the same, is exceedingly rarely a sound way to approach a linguistic question.

So...you're not down for Asir (Osiris) being the same as the Aesir?

I think they could be. Lego linguistics is my favourite pastime. :rolleyes:

Grimm's Deutsches Wörterbuch under Ans (plural Ens) lists a noun meaning tignum, jugum ("stave, yoke"), in Bavarian and Tyrolian dialect denoting barrel staves, cognate to Gothic ans for δοκος "beam" and Old Norse áss "pole, beam, mountain-ridge". Grimm considers this word etymologically identical to áss "god", as he explains in his Deutsche Mythologie:

whether because the mighty gods were thought of as joist, rafter and ceiling of the sky, or that the notions of jugum and mountain-ridge were associated with them, for âs is especially used of jugum terræ, mountain-ridge"[6]

Anderson, in his translation of the Prose Edda (1897), similarly states that, "in this latter sense, the gods are the pillars of the universe," and notes that the sense "mountain-ridge" of ás had been compared to Strabo's Aspargum in the Caucasus (as "the Asburg or castle of the asas") "by those who look for historical fact in mythological tales".

Grimm further notes a resemblance to the name of the gods of the Etruscans reported by Suetonius and Hesychius, æsares or æsi. He notes that Etruscan religion, as well as Greek (Dodekatheon) and Roman polytheism, supposed a circle of twelve superior beings closely "bound" together, as it were forming a fasces, in Rome known as the dii consentes paralleling the Eddic expressions höpt and bönd "bond" for the Æsir.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir

Like a mountain ridge. Which immediately made me think of the Djed Pillar which appears to me to be something like a ridge.

The djed symbol is one of the more ancient and commonly found symbols in Egyptian mythology. It is a pillar-like symbol in hieroglyphics representing stability. It is associated with Osiris the Egyptian god of the afterlife, the underworld and the dead. It is commonly understood to represent his spine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

His spine, that's a ridge, compared to a mountain, our spine is our backbone, ridge. That which holds us up. The Pole, the beam, the spine, the ridge of the mountain.

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The Puzzler

the many-eyed asura are teh counterparts of the 100-handers

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Hekatonkheires

Varuna is also seen as having many eyes, and consequently as all-seeing

The stars were also said to the represent his many eyes

varuna = Uranus = Osiris

If Osiris as Asir, is the same as Aesir, it could be something in it:

The word áss, Proto-Germanic *ansuz, is believed to be derived from Proto-Indo-European *ansu-, related to Sanskrit asura and Avestan ahura, both from Indo-Iranian *ásura, with the root *n̥su-. Indo-Iranian *n̥su- can be considered a zero-grade equivalent of Germanic *ansuz-, and with it could be reconstructed to derive from Proto-Indo-European *h2ensu-.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir

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Timothy

Yahweh or Yowie?

Yowie_original_CROPED.JPG

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The_Spartan

If Osiris as Asir, is the same as Aesir, it could be something in it:

The word áss, Proto-Germanic *ansuz, is believed to be derived from Proto-Indo-European *ansu-, related to Sanskrit asura and Avestan ahura, both from Indo-Iranian *ásura, with the root *n̥su-. Indo-Iranian *n̥su- can be considered a zero-grade equivalent of Germanic *ansuz-, and with it could be reconstructed to derive from Proto-Indo-European *h2ensu-.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%86sir

Why cant words sounding similar, from different geographical areas have similar meanings???

Why is it that you got to link these words deliberately and arrive at some connection?

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The Puzzler

Why cant words sounding similar, from different geographical areas have similar meanings???

Why is it that you got to link these words deliberately and arrive at some connection?

Of course they can - but a name like that, for a set of Gods, that means backbone, pillar and you have the Djed Pillar as the spine of Osiris, kinda makes you think that once, maybe as far back as 12,000 years, as Herodotus places Osiris, these cultures retained an original religious thought, as they then split up into different cultures, over time, each continued to use the original pantheon ideas.

To me, I'd think it MORE ODD that Asir (Osiris pantheon), the Aesir (Etruscan) and the Aesir (Nordic) were NOT connected and originally the same form of religious thought.

To completely ignore the connections on the same name, as well as what I just gave as a perfectly good etymology in Aesir for Asir (backbone-spine) is being blind to the idea that these beliefs didn't pop up in the last 5000 odd years but at least twice as long ago as that.

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