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Penumbra

Yahweh = Canaanite War God/Cult?

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Abramelin

The next is about "ijzer" (pronounced like "aesir"), the Dutch word for "iron":

Een andere etymologie wordt voorgesteld door Vennemann (2003). Zowel pgm. *īsarna- als Keltisch *īsarno- zijn volgens hem ontleningen aan een over grote delen van Europa verspreide substraattaal waaruit het huidige Baskisch is ontstaan. Hij noemt hierbij Baskisch izarne ‘glans, schittering’, dat zelf wordt beschouwd als afleiding van izar ‘ster’.

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/ijzer

Translation:

Another etymology is proposed by Vennemann (2003). Both PGm. * īsarna- as Celtic * īsarno- are according to him borrowings from an over large parts of Europe scattered substrate language from which the present Basque language originated. He mentions the Basque izarn, 'brilliance, sparkle', which itself is regarded as a derivation of izar 'star'.

iron (n.)

O.E. isærn (with M.E. rhotacism of -s-) "the metal iron; an iron weapon," from P.Gmc. *isarnan (cf. O.S. isarn, O.N. isarn, M.Du. iser, O.H.G. isarn, Ger. Eisen) "holy metal" or "strong metal" (in contrast to softer bronze) probably an early borrowing of Celt. *isarnon (cf. O.Ir. iarn, Welsh haiarn), from PIE *is-(e)ro- "powerful, holy," from PIE *eis "strong" (cf. Skt. isirah "vigorous, strong," Gk. ieros "strong").

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=iron&searchmode=none

++++

EDIT:

I will now add a "Puzzlerian twist", LOL:

Osiris ( /oʊˈsaɪərɨs/; Ancient Greek: Ὄσιρις, also Usiris; the Egyptian language name is variously transliterated Asar, Asari, Aser, Ausar, Ausir, Wesir, Usir, Usire or Ausare) is an Egyptian god, usually identified as the god of the afterlife, the underworld and the dead.

Osiris is at times considered the oldest son of the Earth god Geb,[1] and the sky goddess Nut, as well as being brother and husband of Isis, with Horus being considered his posthumously begotten son.[1] He is also associated with the epithet Khenti-Amentiu, which means "Foremost of the Westerners" — a reference to his kingship in the land of the dead.[2] As ruler of the dead, Osiris is also sometimes called "king of the living", since the Ancient Egyptians considered the blessed dead "the living ones".[3]

Osiris is first attested in the middle of the Fifth dynasty of Egypt, although it is likely that he is worshipped much earlier;[4] the term Khenti-Amentiu dates to at least the first dynasty, also as a pharaonic title.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osiris

Now check the image on Wiki, below where it says "Ram God":

Osiris.jpg

Looks like this guy did indeed come from 'the west', and that must have been near the Pillars of Hercules, the 2 djeds.

Damn, Osiris was a (proto-?) Basque !!

:w00t:

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Abramelin

And when I was convinced of just making fun, I discovered this:

Hilarri (from Basque hil 'dead' and harri 'stone') is the name given to disk-shaped funerary steles that are typical of the Basque Country.

These funerary steles present a disc-shaped head facing the rising sun on a trapezoidal stand. They belong to an old tradition throughout all of Europe (as far as North Africa), but today they are mainly found in the Basque Country.

Others have seen connections to a prehistoric solar cult arriving with the Mauri or Jentillak and related to the Egyptian Horus, consort or manifestation of the Ishtar (the star) of Fertility among the desert and Sea People.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hilarri

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kmt_sesh

A note of caution about attributing ancient Egyptian gods to other, later cultures on the basis of the sounds of names. I've already touched on this but I don't know if I explained it well enough.

Osiris is one of the most popular gods for the fringe to pick on. As I've noted, in modern linguistics the name is transliterated as either Asir or wsir, which might be pronounced as something akin to "ah-seer" or "oo-seer," respectively. The name "Osiris" itself comes from the Greek language and is not how the Egyptians referred to this god. This is true of many Egyptian deities including Isis, Thoth, Anubis, and Horus. It's true of many proper and place names like Sesostris, Tuthmosis, Amenophis, Abydos, Heliopolis, Busiris, and Bubastis. None of these are actually ancient Egyptian names.

But in point of fact, Asir or wsir is as close as we can come to reconstructing what the name may have sounded like. The transliteration symbols "A," "i," and "w" are not even vowels but weak consonants. No vowels are really preserved in hieroglyphs, so how much of the ancient Egyptian vocabulary must have sounded when spoken is simply lost to us.

Therefore, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to connect the name "Osiris" to deities in other societies, especially to societies far away and of no linguistic or cultural relationship. This is lego-linguistics, not proper historical study. There was no deity in ancient Egypt named "Osiris," to be technically fussy.

I saw in one of Abramelin's recent posts a putative connection between Osiris and the Abydos deity called Khentyimentu. Some legitimate scholars from years past have tried arduously to tie Osiris into a timeframe earlier than late Dynasty 5, and some outdated literature posits that Khentyimentu might have been an early manifestation of Osiris. It is not a tenable theory anymore, but because it was once posited, you still see it mentioned. In point of fact Khentyimentu, who does indeed date to the very beginnings of Egyptian history, began as a separate and independent canid deity of the Abydos region. No real connection with Osiris can be realistically confirmed until Osiris more or less took over this god's role as "Foremost of the Westerners" by the Middle Kingdom.

(And a note to Abramelin: Please know I'm not picking on you. I just saw Khentyimentu in your post and was in the mood to write, and so it goes. I am fully aware of the fact that you're the man!)

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The Puzzler

Therefore, it doesn't make a lot of sense to try to connect the name "Osiris" to deities in other societies, especially to societies far away and of no linguistic or cultural relationship. This is lego-linguistics, not proper historical study. There was no deity in ancient Egypt named "Osiris," to be technically fussy.

Asir as Osiris makes perfect etymologically sense when compared to Aesir because of Osiris association with the Djed Pillar, which is his spine. With Aesir meaning backbone or ridge, it goes beyond having a similar sound.

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cormac mac airt

Asir as Osiris makes perfect etymologically sense when compared to Aesir because of Osiris association with the Djed Pillar, which is his spine. With Aesir meaning backbone or ridge, it goes beyond having a similar sound.

No it doesn't either as etymologically the two words, Asir/Osiris and Aesir, originate from two different languages belonging to two different language families. Just because they sound similar, that does not mean they are linguistically related.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt

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The Puzzler

No it doesn't either as etymologically the two words, Asir/Osiris and Aesir, originate from two different languages belonging to two different language families. Just because they sound similar, that does not mean they are linguistically related.

cormac

I said when you look at Osiris as the Djed Pillar, which has the same meaning as Aesir. Both are the spine/backbone - mountain ridge. Osiris will be the Asir because he is the Pillar itself.

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cormac mac airt

I said when you look at Osiris as the Djed Pillar, which has the same meaning as Aesir. Both are the spine/backbone - mountain ridge. Osiris will be the Asir because he is the Pillar itself.

And what I'm saying is that nowhere in that is 'etymology' really relevant, as you're not really talking about the origins of the words themselves, but the similarities associated with them. Which still doesn't mean they're related.

cormac

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The Puzzler

And what I'm saying is that nowhere in that is 'etymology' really relevant, as you're not really talking about the origins of the words themselves, but the similarities associated with them. Which still doesn't mean they're related.

cormac

OK, if you want to get technical, I cannot prove the word for Osiris Asir is etymologically related to Aesir - backbone, ridge, beam, it's just we don't know that, but the symbology is there, in the Djed Pillar - Osiris spine, so I wouldn't be so quick to completely ignore the connection, especially since the word is very similar sounding.

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Leonardo

OK, if you want to get technical, I cannot prove the word for Osiris Asir is etymologically related to Aesir - backbone, ridge, beam, it's just we don't know that, but the symbology is there, in the Djed Pillar - Osiris spine, so I wouldn't be so quick to completely ignore the connection, especially since the word is very similar sounding.

It is worth considering that the symbology of the Djed may have changed in what it represented as the pantheon of Egyptian god evolved.

As discussed here, the earliest 'incarnation' of the Djed may have been as a fertility fetish. It may also have represented the four pillars with which Shu held up the sky in a slightly later mythology.

Once the worship of Osiris gained ground, the symbology of the Djed may have morphed again into being the backbone of that deity.

So, it is unwise to make connections from the Djed to other beliefs outside the Egyptian religion based on the meaning of the Djed in a later time period.

None of this is relevant to the thread topic, however.

Edited by Leonardo

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The Puzzler

It is worth considering that the symbology of the Djed may have changed in what it represented as the pantheon of Egyptian god evolved.

As discussed here, the earliest 'incarnation' of the Djed may have been as a fertility fetish. It may also have represented the four pillars with which Shu held up the sky in a slightly later mythology.

Once the worship of Osiris gained ground, the symbology of the Djed may have morphed again into being the backbone of that deity.

So, it is unwise to make connections from the Djed to other beliefs outside the Egyptian religion based on the meaning of the Djed in a later time period.

None of this is relevant to the thread topic, however.

Of course, everything would change depending on how each culture adopted and utilised it, or how the priests utilised it.

I think it's just as unwise to ignore them completely.

Yeah well I don't see much discussion on Yahweh being a Canaanite War God...

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Abramelin

<skip>

(And a note to Abramelin: Please know I'm not picking on you. I just saw Khentyimentu in your post and was in the mood to write, and so it goes. I am fully aware of the fact that you're the man!)

I know you weren't, I expected you to respond, lol.

But as I said, I was only kidding.

However, I didn't know what to think of those (proto) Basques.

There are those who say they may have a connection with north African people (Berbers), based on linguistics.

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kmt_sesh

Asir as Osiris makes perfect etymologically sense when compared to Aesir because of Osiris association with the Djed Pillar, which is his spine. With Aesir meaning backbone or ridge, it goes beyond having a similar sound.

Some useful posts have already been contributed since your reply to me, and I like Leonardo's post about the Djed-pillar.

But let's clarify that in ancient Egypt "Djed" (transliterated Dd) did not mean spine, ridge, or backbone. It meant "strength" or "endurance." It has nothing to do with body parts or geography. In its earliest manifestations the Djed was connected with the gods Ptah and Sokar of the Memphite region. It probably wasn't associated with Osiris until about the Middle Kingdom, by which time Osiris was busy assimilating many of the attributes and icons of other deities.

The Djed would eventually be painted onto the backs of coffins, and in many instances would be depicted in personified forms--this was when the Djed was analogous to the spine of Osiris (his "strength"). It occurred only later, and even to the Egyptians it was metaphorical, not literal.

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kmt_sesh

I know you weren't, I expected you to respond, lol.

But as I said, I was only kidding.

However, I didn't know what to think of those (proto) Basques.

There are those who say they may have a connection with north African people (Berbers), based on linguistics.

I've heard that about the Berbers, too. Frankly I have no idea. My head is stuck in the ancient Near East and, sadly, I know very little about ancient Europe.

But it's interesting to consider that the Basque language might represent the descendent of one of the languages originally spoken in prehistoric Europe, prior to the later arrival of Indo-Europeans. Most of those original languages from Europe are long gone. I could be wrong but I think Hungarian might be another example, although it's identifiable as a Uralic language.

And let's not forget Scottish. Those whisky-swilling, haggis-eating troglodytes are nearly impossible to understand. That's a jab at cormac, by the way. :w00t:

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Leonardo

Some useful posts have already been contributed since your reply to me, and I like Leonardo's post about the Djed-pillar.

Thank you for the accolade, kmt.

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to learn that the Djed is thought of as being, from it's beginning, a "fertility fetish". Quite the euphemism, that!

Puzzler may have second thoughts about linking the Djed to mountains when she considers the Djed may have been (or represented) a prehistoric dildo.

Edited by Leonardo

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Abramelin

Aha, now I remember where I had posted that ... uhm.... plastic 'Djed'.

You won't have to go look for it because the post was deleted.

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granpa

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

As per the myth of Osiris and Isis, Osiris is killed by Set by being tricked into a coffin made to fit Osiris exactly. Set has the coffin with the now deceased Osiris flung into the Nile. The coffin is carried by the Nile to the ocean and onto the city of Byblos in Syria. The coffin runs aground and a sacred tree takes root and rapidly grows around the coffin, enclosing the coffin within its trunk. The king of the land, intrigued by the tree's quick growth, orders the tree cut down and installed as a pillar in his palace, unaware that the tree contains Osiris's body. Meanwhile, Isis searches for Osiris aided by Anubis, and comes to know of Osiris's location in Byblos. Isis maneuvers herself into the favor of the king and queen and is granted a boon. She asks for the pillar in the palace hall and upon being granted it, extracts the coffin from the pillar. She then consecrates the pillar, anointing it with myrrh and wrapping it linen. This pillar came to be known as the pillar of djed

osiris corresponds to Greek Ouranos (Adam[ant]) and Set corresponds to Cronus.

Edited by granpa

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granpa

Seal ring featuring the inscription: "Ptah the one with durable favours"

598px-Seal_ring_Ptah_the_one_with_durable_favours_N2080_mp3h8731.jpg

Edited by granpa

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granpa

M22

Rush with shoots

m22.jpg

M23

Plant regarded as typical of Upper Egypt

m23.jpg

Edited by granpa

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granpa

M13

Stem of papyrus

m13.jpg

O29

Wooden column

(Also found vertically)

o29.jpg

Edited by granpa

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cormac mac airt

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

As per the myth of Osiris and Isis, Osiris is killed by Set by being tricked into a coffin made to fit Osiris exactly. Set has the coffin with the now deceased Osiris flung into the Nile. The coffin is carried by the Nile to the ocean and onto the city of Byblos in Syria. The coffin runs aground and a sacred tree takes root and rapidly grows around the coffin, enclosing the coffin within its trunk. The king of the land, intrigued by the tree's quick growth, orders the tree cut down and installed as a pillar in his palace, unaware that the tree contains Osiris's body. Meanwhile, Isis searches for Osiris aided by Anubis, and comes to know of Osiris's location in Byblos. Isis maneuvers herself into the favor of the king and queen and is granted a boon. She asks for the pillar in the palace hall and upon being granted it, extracts the coffin from the pillar. She then consecrates the pillar, anointing it with myrrh and wrapping it linen. This pillar came to be known as the pillar of djed

osiris corresponds to Greek Ouranos (Adam[ant]) and Set corresponds to Cronus.

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm pretty sure that neither Osiris nor the Greek Ouranos has anything to do with....

AdamAnt.jpg

ADAM ANT. :w00t:

cormac

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kmt_sesh

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

As per the myth of Osiris and Isis, Osiris is killed by Set by being tricked into a coffin made to fit Osiris exactly. Set has the coffin with the now deceased Osiris flung into the Nile. The coffin is carried by the Nile to the ocean and onto the city of Byblos in Syria. The coffin runs aground and a sacred tree takes root and rapidly grows around the coffin, enclosing the coffin within its trunk. The king of the land, intrigued by the tree's quick growth, orders the tree cut down and installed as a pillar in his palace, unaware that the tree contains Osiris's body. Meanwhile, Isis searches for Osiris aided by Anubis, and comes to know of Osiris's location in Byblos. Isis maneuvers herself into the favor of the king and queen and is granted a boon. She asks for the pillar in the palace hall and upon being granted it, extracts the coffin from the pillar. She then consecrates the pillar, anointing it with myrrh and wrapping it linen. This pillar came to be known as the pillar of djed

osiris corresponds to Greek Ouranos (Adam[ant]) and Set corresponds to Cronus.

As noted earlier, the Djed as a symbol or icon considerably precedes the appearance of Osiris among the pantheon of Egyptian deities. It was not originally an icon for him. The myth you present is indeed part of the Egyptian tradition, but from later periods. The above is not even fully fleshed out yet in the Pyramid Texts, which first appear at the end of Dynasty 5.

However Osiris might correspond to Greek deities--and to the Greeks Dionysus is a much more common comparison, as I recall--it was the Greeks making these comparisons, not the Egyptians. The Greeks were trying to find connections with other, much-older cultures, and most of the associations they devised have no basis in fact.

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kmt_sesh

Perhaps it's just me, but I'm pretty sure that neither Osiris nor the Greek Ouranos has anything to do with....

AdamAnt.jpg

ADAM ANT. :w00t:

cormac

Man, cormac, does that reference date you. Now we know how much of an old man you really are. :w00t:

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The Puzzler

Some useful posts have already been contributed since your reply to me, and I like Leonardo's post about the Djed-pillar.

But let's clarify that in ancient Egypt "Djed" (transliterated Dd) did not mean spine, ridge, or backbone. It meant "strength" or "endurance." It has nothing to do with body parts or geography. In its earliest manifestations the Djed was connected with the gods Ptah and Sokar of the Memphite region. It probably wasn't associated with Osiris until about the Middle Kingdom, by which time Osiris was busy assimilating many of the attributes and icons of other deities.

The Djed would eventually be painted onto the backs of coffins, and in many instances would be depicted in personified forms--this was when the Djed was analogous to the spine of Osiris (his "strength"). It occurred only later, and even to the Egyptians it was metaphorical, not literal.

Kmt, Atlas means 'to endure'. The pillar was what endured and had strength. You know, what held up the sky. It's the same concept really. The mountain ridge, is the mountain itself, the backbone of it, the strength, it's spine, when the mountain fell, the strength also was gone. This is the pillar that holds up the sky.

It is commonly understood to represent his spine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

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The Puzzler

Thank you for the accolade, kmt.

I must admit, I was a bit surprised to learn that the Djed is thought of as being, from it's beginning, a "fertility fetish". Quite the euphemism, that!

Puzzler may have second thoughts about linking the Djed to mountains when she considers the Djed may have been (or represented) a prehistoric dildo.

Hardly.

His spine is a beam or pillar, pole, post - which is a mountain ridge, which all keep the sky held up and also is the way the Earth or Sky (depending on the thought) was impregnated. It only makes it all the more logical.

More on the Djed being Osiris spine:

The djed pillar was often used as amulets for the living and the dead. It was placed as an amulet near the spines of mummified bodies, which was supposed to ensure the resurrection of the dead, allowing the deceased to live eternally.[4] The Egyptian Book of the Dead lists a spell which when spoken over a gold amulet hung around the mummy's neck, ensures that the mummy would regain use of its spine and be able to sit up. It was also painted onto coffins.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

Parallels have also been drawn between the djed pillar and various items in other cultures. A parallel has been suggested between the representation of the djed pillar to the Assyrian "sacred tree." Sidney Smith in 1922, first suggested a parallel when he drew attention to the presence of the upper four bands of the djed pillar and the bands that are present in the center of the vertical portion of the tree. He also proposed a common origin between Osiris and the Assyrian god Assur with whom he said, the sacred tree might be associated. Cohen and Kangas suggest that the tree is probably associated with the Sumerian god of male fertility, Enki and that for both Osiris and Enki, an erect pole or polelike symbol stands beneath a celestial symbol. They also point out that the Assyrian king is depicted in proximity to the sacred tree, which is similar to the depiction of the pharaoh in the raising of the djed ceremony. Additionally, the sacred tree and the Assyrian winged disk, which are generally depicted separately, are combined in certain designs, similar to the djed pillar which is sometimes surmounted with a solar disk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djed

The tree of life, the pole to the Heavens, the backbone, spine, or enduring pillar of the World.

Osiris is not special, he is the same as many of the same type of Gods around the world at the time, before and after. He is just the Egyptian Asir.

The superior deity is the ruler of the Cosmos. In his honour, the Sami erected a sacrificial pole every autumn, symbolizing the world-pillar, which was considered as a connection the World to the firmament. The pillar reached from the centre of the Earth to the fix point on the firmament - the Pole star. The superior deity was also the giver of life and was considered the god of fertility.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radien-attje

See, the pillar is the giver of life, the God of fertility.

It connected the World to the firmament (Heavens).

It's no surprise if you follow my threads, that I have followed the Sami around since around 14,000BC, (see my Sami of Lapland thread) I know that at around 7000BC the people who became the Sami and the people who became the Berbers were of one people, in Europe. The ones who came into North Africa will have the same original religious ideals as we can still find in the Sami, give this 3000 years to find itself entrenched throughout North Africa and you have the same concepts appear in both.

Osiris, Isis and Horus are nothing more but repeats of the above and it has been pointed out that the Sami Gods are the same as the Holy Trinity, the mistake people make is in thinking the Sami took on OTHERS religions. This does mean all the Egyptian people were European, it means the priests and shamans who controlled the religion bought it via the Berbers/Libyans even Ethiopians to the people who lived along the Nile as far back as 7000BC.

Radien-attje is often portrayed as the main figure in a Trinity, which besides him, consists of the Raedieahkka or Radien-akka (Maadteraahka, the superior mother) and their son Radien-pardne. There are critics who claim, that this Trinity is a consequence of the meeting with the Christian religion, and that it is a match to the God the Father, Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit. If this is the case, it is interesting, that the Sami have replaced the Holy Spirit with a wife.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radien-attje

The Sami didn't replace the Holy Spirit with a wife, the wife was always there, SHE was replaced.

New-Dawn123.jpg

And don't forget where Santa lives either, with the Sami and their reindeer in Lapland of course, who comes the same day Jesus was born, you can pretend that is just a huge co-incidence if you like and nothing is relative to each other at all for all I care but as you know, that's not my style. ;)

Edited by The Puzzler

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