+and-then Posted March 17, 2012 #151 Share Posted March 17, 2012 So, you're saying that having nuclear weapons is an effective deterrent, which suggests Iran should pursue nuclear weapons to act as a deterrent against any threat to their nation and sovereignity? Or are you suggesting that only Israel, in the ME, is capable of acting responsibly? How is this good for either Israel or the US? Or even the wider ME, for that matter? I'm saying that Israel's possession of the bomb has not caused other's to seek to build their own. We know already that Saudi Arabia will buy or build because they've said so. Even when other nations in the region are obviously concerned that a rogue nation like Iran might possess the bomb, still you seem to defend their right to do so. What is it Leo, no such thing as real evil in your philosophy? Or does Israel make up the sum total of what's wrong in the world for you? An Iranian bomb changes the whole world for the worse. What for you may seem some academic exercise in righting the perceived wrongs of imperialism for the rest of us may constitute a world significantly more damaged and dangerous - even in our own back yards. Do you honestly believe that the world is wrong to be concerned with an Iranian nuke? As to Israel's preempting attack I have no idea if it will be better or worse for the region. I am convinced that they have no desire to attack and are trying to bluff Iran into changing course based on the threat of force. Obviously Iran is gambling that to be the case as well. If we do stumble into a regional war there it's at best going to be a major crisis economically. It could end with nuclear weapons being used. Yet Iran continues it's work apace and has become a pariah State all for the need for electrical power generation or national pride? The wider ME is a conglomeration of States where Islam holds sway and where the highest priority of the masses seems to be the destruction of the Jewish State. According to Psalm 83 at some point yet future the nations of Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt ,Lebanon and Syria along with the hezzies and the poor palis are going to attempt just that goal. The names of their ancestors are invoked as those who want "to cut off the name of Israel from being remembered forever". Israel will be battered but will win. Against them all. And Iran will escape destruction so Israel will not nuke Iran. And while you're chuckling about the foolishness of such a prediction you might ask yourself what are the odds that a scenario like this could be playing out after such a long intermission...with the precise peoples that were mentioned down to the phrases they are using? But prophecy is nonsense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonardo Posted March 17, 2012 #152 Share Posted March 17, 2012 I'm saying that Israel's possession of the bomb has not caused other's to seek to build their own. We know already that Saudi Arabia will buy or build because they've said so. Even when other nations in the region are obviously concerned that a rogue nation like Iran might possess the bomb, still you seem to defend their right to do so. What is it Leo, no such thing as real evil in your philosophy? Or does Israel make up the sum total of what's wrong in the world for you? Why do you assume anyone not an Israeli-phile is anti-semitic? As for evil, I don't judge evil simply as those who are different to myself, my culture or philosophies. If I judged Iran to be evil for their culture, then they have the same right to judge me evil for mine. Or is there an 'absolute evil' in your world - defined, of course, by what you believe? An Iranian bomb changes the whole world for the worse. What for you may seem some academic exercise in righting the perceived wrongs of imperialism for the rest of us may constitute a world significantly more damaged and dangerous - even in our own back yards. Do you honestly believe that the world is wrong to be concerned with an Iranian nuke? The world is right to be concerned that any nation has nuclear weapons - that includes the US and Israel. I am simply not a cherry-picker like yourself when it comes to that. As to Israel's preempting attack I have no idea if it will be better or worse for the region. I am convinced that they have no desire to attack and are trying to bluff Iran into changing course based on the threat of force. Obviously Iran is gambling that to be the case as well. If we do stumble into a regional war there it's at best going to be a major crisis economically. It could end with nuclear weapons being used. Yet Iran continues it's work apace and has become a pariah State all for the need for electrical power generation or national pride? Why should Iran become a 'pariah state' for pursuing nuclear technology? Does this mean you would agree that Israel should be a 'pariah state' for also pursuing nuclear weapons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted March 18, 2012 #153 Share Posted March 18, 2012 I'm saying that Israel's possession of the bomb has not caused other's to seek to build their own. umm Iran Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted March 18, 2012 #154 Share Posted March 18, 2012 umm Iran Damn.....you're right. Of course since they were the topic of discussion I was excluding them as obvious but.. yes, Iran is motivated at least in part to build a bomb because of Israel having one. I stand corrected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lightly Posted March 18, 2012 #155 Share Posted March 18, 2012 (edited) *removal of idiotic post* .. apologies, carry on. Edited March 18, 2012 by lightly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Right Wing Posted March 18, 2012 #156 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Why do you assume anyone not an Israeli-phile is anti-semitic? As for evil, I don't judge evil simply as those who are different to myself, my culture or philosophies. If I judged Iran to be evil for their culture, then they have the same right to judge me evil for mine. Or is there an 'absolute evil' in your world - defined, of course, by what you believe? The world is right to be concerned that any nation has nuclear weapons - that includes the US and Israel. I am simply not a cherry-picker like yourself when it comes to that. Why should Iran become a 'pariah state' for pursuing nuclear technology? Does this mean you would agree that Israel should be a 'pariah state' for also pursuing nuclear weapons? Platos Republic is an example of a Utopia and all other forms of Government are evil. The reason being is that in Platos Republic the impact of policies on each different type of citizen are taken into account. So lets consider the US, UK or other Western nations - 1. Are tramps happy? 2. Are people stuck on unemployment benefits happy? 3. Are kids brought up in broken families happy? 4. Are people happy having to put up with narcissists, sociopaths and other dysfunctional citizens? 5. Are the victims of crime happy? 6. Do our people enjoy living in a plastic, shallow culture? 7. Are people stuck in prisons as the result of a poorly run country happy? (The list goes on) Now I laid into my own country and similar ones there but all nations on the planet have problems. I could pick apart any of them yet many of my own people are unable to see the flaws in my homelands political system. They watch the media and are dim enough to believe the world aspires to western values, culture and ideology when they dont. Do they really think the people living in Iran, China and Russia cant see our problems as we see theirs? Trying to portray Iran as evil for being a conservative theocracy is not only wrong but the people doing so are like Nazis. They are prepared to wage war and murder other human beings over flawed ideologies. People are sick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted March 18, 2012 #157 Share Posted March 18, 2012 Platos Republic is an example of a Utopia and all other forms of Government are evil. The reason being is that in Platos Republic the impact of policies on each different type of citizen are taken into account. So lets consider the US, UK or other Western nations - 1. Are tramps happy? 2. Are people stuck on unemployment benefits happy? 3. Are kids brought up in broken families happy? 4. Are people happy having to put up with narcissists, sociopaths and other dysfunctional citizens? 5. Are the victims of crime happy? 6. Do our people enjoy living in a plastic, shallow culture? 7. Are people stuck in prisons as the result of a poorly run country happy? (The list goes on) Now I laid into my own country and similar ones there but all nations on the planet have problems. I could pick apart any of them yet many of my own people are unable to see the flaws in my homelands political system. They watch the media and are dim enough to believe the world aspires to western values, culture and ideology when they dont. Do they really think the people living in Iran, China and Russia cant see our problems as we see theirs? Trying to portray Iran as evil for being a conservative theocracy is not only wrong but the people doing so are like Nazis. They are prepared to wage war and murder other human beings over flawed ideologies. People are sick. Leonardo if Iran was content to be just a conservative theocracy then I'd have no problem with them at all. They have never made any secret of their desire to spread their revolution throughout the whole world. Were you unaware of this or do you just discount it as empty rhetoric? They have fingerprints on deadly activities for decades. I don't need to understand the motivations of an enemy in the act of striking me. If someone rises to kill you, then kill them first! It's amazing how difficult that simple concept is to explain to someone who sits in safety provided to them by someone else's efforts while they denigrate the very help they receive. Plato? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted March 30, 2012 #158 Share Posted March 30, 2012 Leonardo if Iran was content to be just a conservative theocracy then I'd have no problem with them at all. They have never made any secret of their desire to spread their revolution throughout the whole world. Were you unaware of this or do you just discount it as empty rhetoric? They have fingerprints on deadly activities for decades. I don't need to understand the motivations of an enemy in the act of striking me. If someone rises to kill you, then kill them first! It's amazing how difficult that simple concept is to explain to someone who sits in safety provided to them by someone else's efforts while they denigrate the very help they receive. Plato? It's none of your business whether Iran is a conservative theocracy or not. Who came up with this latest double standard that Iran is the one that can't have deadly activities? Iran isn't going to attack you and you're paranoid on baseless media nonsense if you actually think that. We could care less what some Iranian thinks of what we do with our next door neighbors or in the Western Hemisphere for that matter and I would advise all Iranians to not care what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted March 30, 2012 #159 Share Posted March 30, 2012 It's none of your business whether Iran is a conservative theocracy or not. Who came up with this latest double standard that Iran is the one that can't have deadly activities? Iran isn't going to attack you and you're paranoid on baseless media nonsense if you actually think that. We could care less what some Iranian thinks of what we do with our next door neighbors or in the Western Hemisphere for that matter and I would advise all Iranians to not care what you think. Yam you are becoming a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man Do you ever lighten up? When a person is unable to EVER admit that someone else's opinion may have some validity then their own opinions stop being taken seriously. For the record, I choose what to make my business and I stand by my statements. What an arrogant piece of work you are..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yamato Posted April 8, 2012 #160 Share Posted April 8, 2012 Yam you are becoming a caricature of a curmudgeonly old man Do you ever lighten up? When a person is unable to EVER admit that someone else's opinion may have some validity then their own opinions stop being taken seriously. For the record, I choose what to make my business and I stand by my statements. What an arrogant piece of work you are..... Old enough to have seen this drill before. Arrogance to the establishment is the very least I can do. You just found yourself a part of what deserves all of our contempt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted April 10, 2012 #161 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Old enough to have seen this drill before. Arrogance to the establishment is the very least I can do. You just found yourself a part of what deserves all of our contempt. Glad to know you are so sagacious. You act as though you're the first rebel in all the world and if they'd just listen to you, they'd get it right this time Don't get fooled again.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecto76 Posted May 1, 2012 #162 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Not that its really funny... I just find it funny though ever since the worries of Iran's Nuclear ambitions began, now multiple countries are posing Nuclear Missile Testing??? I'm not an Obama fan, but no offense to anyone who is; since all he wants to do is negotiate no one is taking him that serious. IMO; I think Obama won't support any military action right now due to his campaign & reelection. If he does, he will definitely lose. I think that is why he's being conservative about it. Let Israel do something about it. The U.S. can't afford another war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted May 1, 2012 #163 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Not that its really funny... I just find it funny though ever since the worries of Iran's Nuclear ambitions began, now multiple countries are posing Nuclear Missile Testing??? I'm not an Obama fan, but no offense to anyone who is; since all he wants to do is negotiate no one is taking him that serious. IMO; I think Obama won't support any military action right now due to his campaign & reelection. If he does, he will definitely lose. I think that is why he's being conservative about it. Let Israel do something about it. The U.S. can't afford another war. Yet we may not be able to afford a nuclear Iran either. The world is just too interconnected and complicated to just have the US try to sit one out. Iraq was a crippling mistake and it might yet cost us more than we can pay. If Israel actually isn't bluffing then we'll be at war whether we like it or not. The difference though, is that it could be a war where we choose when, where and how much to strike. There would be no need to try to occupy the country. Iran could be sleeping in caves and rubble without electricity after about a month long air campaign. Their military is a joke. The danger comes when their allies begin to get notions of standing up for them. Some really hard choices need to be made and no one in office now seems to have the nerve or wisdom to make them. So we'll wait and see what the Israelis decide. But unless Tehran gets some new folks in government soon, we will be at open war with them sooner or later. Frankly, I'd rather fight them BEFORE they have nukes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecto76 Posted May 1, 2012 #164 Share Posted May 1, 2012 According to the media... Iran's military is nothing. It would be a swift and quick impact if Israel attacked. Iran's own people are protesting against Tehran. They are hungry, starving and homeless. Maybe because the country is putting all of their money into their Nuclear ambitions instead of building their economy. If they were so innocent, there would be no hesitation to cooperate 100% I am not a fan of Bush or Obama but if Bush were still President, I doubt he would have let this gone as far as it has? I can't believe the nerve of Obama taking credit for the death of Bin Laden? It was Bush who initiated the hunt for Bin Laden. Obama is stealing the credit for it. Why can't the media report that??? lol... I find it interesting though that a month ago or so Iran made the headlines and all of a sudden there isn't many headlines about it. Hmmmm? I think because there was too much speculation going on and the news got a slap on the wrist for having too much coverage on it. Don't think for a second the government runs the media! They let them air what they want them to air and report. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted May 1, 2012 #165 Share Posted May 1, 2012 I can't believe the nerve of Obama taking credit for the death of Bin Laden? It was Bush who initiated the hunt for Bin Laden. And then Dubya stopped it and publically said binladen was not important. They no longer cared. The intelligence of OBL's location came during the Obama admin after Obama publically said it was his mission to renew the search that bush stopped. Obama made the decision to take him out. Not bush. Please get your facts straight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dredimus Posted May 2, 2012 #166 Share Posted May 2, 2012 And then Dubya stopped it and publically said binladen was not important. They no longer cared. The intelligence of OBL's location came during the Obama admin after Obama publically said it was his mission to renew the search that bush stopped. Obama made the decision to take him out. Not bush. Please get your facts straight. Source this... and please bring more than the 30 second video clip and the fact that the CIA closed the unit... because im just going to rebut that with the quotes about how the unit wasnt closed, the CIA was just restructered to keep up with the changing environment of terrorism. The video you would bring up, played in full from the beginning of the question, simply states that they do not have the resources to focus solely on one person especially when that one person's trail has gone nearly completely cold at the time. After Tora Bora OBL nearly dropped off the face of the planet as far as an information trail goes. "Terror is bigger than one person". The hunt for OBL was never stopped... stop spewing disinformation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ecto76 Posted May 2, 2012 #167 Share Posted May 2, 2012 Thank you Dredimus! I was going to reply with when did Bush ever stop the hunt? As far as I knew, it never stopped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ninjadude Posted May 2, 2012 #168 Share Posted May 2, 2012 (edited) please bring more than the 30 second video clip So the video clip from Bush's own mouth is not good enough?! "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02) The C.I.A. closed the unit in 2006. Per the New York times article in 2006. The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said. The decision is a milestone for the agency, which formed the unit before Osama bin Laden became a household name and bolstered its ranks after the Sept. 11 attacks, when President Bush pledged to bring Mr. bin Laden to justice "dead or alive." Edited May 2, 2012 by ninjadude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dredimus Posted May 3, 2012 #169 Share Posted May 3, 2012 So the video clip from Bush's own mouth is not good enough?! "I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority." - G.W. Bush, 3/13/02 "I am truly not that concerned about him." - G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts, 3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02) The C.I.A. closed the unit in 2006. Per the New York times article in 2006. The Central Intelligence Agency has closed a unit that for a decade had the mission of hunting Osama bin Laden and his top lieutenants, intelligence officials confirmed Monday. The unit, known as Alec Station, was disbanded late last year and its analysts reassigned within the C.I.A. Counterterrorist Center, the officials said. The decision is a milestone for the agency, which formed the unit before Osama bin Laden became a household name and bolstered its ranks after the Sept. 11 attacks, when President Bush pledged to bring Mr. bin Laden to justice "dead or alive." So you brought the exact "evidence" that was already refuted in my post... you pick and choose what you wanted to fit your ideology...the comment was alot longer than you few words you chose to use from the speech... I'm not going to rehash exactly what I just told you in the post above... you should really try taking in all the evidence and forming your own opinion some time... its very... liberating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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