Would People invent GOD ?

[encouraged]

Is it the unconscious part of the mind that you are talking about ? We still don't know what it stands for after many studies so it's a bit of a conjuncture. Anyway it is capable of doing too many things as the various hypothesis say which includes conjuring up non-existent beings into physical reality.

Do you really want to discuss this as a possibility ? It is a wide and unrepresented(or maybe not) field(as far as I know) you know.

My book has a fair bit of a chapter that deals with the topic of NDE visits to other places. It discusses the pros and cons of such being reality. Naturally the inescapable conclusion I have to make--it having been my own experience--is that my NDE visit and OBEs were indeed real within our defines of reality.* In that discussion I further develop the thought problem of why these experiences are not dream-like in their manner of content but have common elements and themes. I then construct a reasonable probability that a more advanced entity would pretty much have to be involved in order for us to be able to form/refine the spiritual basis needed for these events to be reality.

It may be a concept unique to my thinking, but it is also one of 40 years of refinement by me and probably should be put out there in the free domain to be thoughtfully discussed. However, I am not sure if a non-fiery discussion can be achieved.

So, maybe it should be a topic outside my contribution, for I have said about all I can.

Does a more advanced entity take the innate "god" concept and has he through the eons shaped it to be a definition of himself through rare actions of direct revelation? Does it stay pure or become tarnished by the human factor?

_______________

* Having had unexplainable knowledge (from sight) I was able to pass on to my mother upon regaining my sight (huge swollen black eyes so bad as to be impermeable to light.) It was passed on in a way that tested to her satisfaction that it did indeed happen. As well, other knowledge (from sight) that I passed to my father. Then also a third kind of knowledge that was passed on at a very critical juncture when I first encountered my mother at the hospital.

[Spock_the_Future]

My book has a fair bit of a chapter that deals with the topic of NDE visits to other places. It discusses the pros and cons of such being reality. Naturally the inescapable conclusion I have to make--it having been my own experience--is that my NDE visit and OBEs were indeed real within our defines of reality.* In that discussion I further develop the thought problem of why these experiences are not dream-like in their manner of content but have common elements and themes. I then construct a reasonable probability that a more advanced entity would pretty much have to be involved in order for us to be able to form/refine the spiritual basis needed for these events to be reality.

It may be a concept unique to my thinking, but it is also one of 40 years of refinement by me and probably should be put out there in the free domain to be thoughtfully discussed. However, I am not sure if a non-fiery discussion can be achieved.

So, maybe it should be a topic outside my contribution, for I have said about all I can.

Does a more advanced entity take the innate "god" concept and has he through the eons shaped it to be a definition of himself through rare actions of direct revelation? Does it stay pure or become tarnished by the human factor?

_______________

* Having had unexplainable knowledge (from sight) I was able to pass on to my mother upon regaining my sight (huge swollen black eyes so bad as to be impermeable to light.) It was passed on in a way that tested to her satisfaction that it did indeed happen. As well, other knowledge (from sight) that I passed to my father. Then also a third kind of knowledge that was passed on at a very critical juncture when I first encountered my mother at the hospital.

Well I am looking for personal experiences and you do provide a reason for an Invention. you still need to explain what you experienced, I mean your NDE and OBE and instead of Scientific explanations you want something else to explain it. I am just making a guess here and it does not in anyway discredit your feelings and the way you wish to explain and believe in the experiences that you had.

[Mr Walker]

In my opinion, earlier people invented god simply because they didn't have the technological or scientific means to explain certain things. They couldn't explain how we came to be, so god must've done it. They couldn't explain how the planet got here, so god must have done it, etc.

Also, it's human nature to yearn and desire power, and what more could a person use as an alibi to subjugate fickle individuals than an almighty creator who will punish you for not following or adhering to certain rules? Religion is a powerful tool against weak minds.

I am also confused as to why religion is still so prominent amongst society... people are STILL weak minded...

The most prominent human desire is not for power but for safety, Power may be one way to achieve safety. The more power we have the more safe we are.

Your judgement of peole is also too harsh Belief in god confers many real physical and psychological advantages. It is logical and rational for a human being to construct a god and to believe in a god, because that works for them, and always has.

Given any lack of evidence either way, a wise man will make a conection with god tha t facilitates his life in many many ways.

Religion is not really created from humans desire for power but from their tendency as social animals to form like- minded groups. In a way religion is like football. We join the club which appeals to us most for many reasons.

A man is no stronger, better, or wiser to chose disbelief than belief; and logically may be less wise because it makes his life harder, lonelier, sadder, shorter, and often more limited. These facts have all been confirmed by many independent academic studies.

Some people like to feel "tough and independent" by rejecting the concept of god. In a way it is a part of the psychological growth of a human from dependent infancy to independent adolescence. FAir enough I say, but they cannot logically impose that self martydom (or separation from god) on anyone else.

As part of the "growing up process" some young people chose to reject their parents and their parents' wisdoms and knowledge; to forgo their parent's protection for an independent existence. Others do not. They become independent adults, without rejecting their parents or their family.

IMO the latter gain the best of both worlds, while the former suffer significant losses to gain much the same result. One can be independent while incoporating learned parental knowledge and wisdoms. Actually, for millenia, that is how humanity worked. Only in the modern era has rapid change created a chasm betwen each generation.

There is no weakness in chosing a belief and faith in god. In a way it is a weakness to chose to "abandon" belief in god. A weakness of self interest, placing independence above wisdom, learned knowledge, etc.

Psychologically, it is a costly and unnecessary declaration of individuality, like the teenager who leaves home "to be free." One can find freedom in many forms, and you dont have to abandon prior "understood truths" to achieve independence or freedom.

One can only be totally and completely free when one knows/ understands, the truths of life, and incorporates them into "his" way of living.

Edited February 18, 2012 by Mr Walker

[Alienated Being]

The most prominent human desire is not for power but for safety, Power may be one way to achieve safety. The more power we have the more safe we are.

Your judgement of peole is also too harsh Belief in god confers many real physical and psychological advantages. It is logical and rational for a human being to construct a god and to believe in a god, because that works for them, and always has.

The most prominent human desire is power, and leadership. It is an instinct embedded within us, and has been for the hundreds of thousands of years that we, and our ancestors, have existed.....

Given any lack of evidence either way, a wise man will make a conection with god tha t facilitates his life in many many ways.

He will make a "connection", just as much as I made a "connection" with my two imaginary friends as a youngster.

Religion is not really created from humans desire for power but from their tendency as social animals to form like- minded groups. In a way religion is like football. We join the club which appeals to us most for many reasons.

Yes, it was created to obtain power within those groups; to carry out tasks that would be of benefit to you, and the survival of the society...

A man is no stronger, better, or wiser to chose disbelief than belief; and logically may be less wise because it makes his life harder, lonelier, sadder, shorter, and often more limited. These facts have all been confirmed by many independent academic studies.

Hrm... Sweden is the most atheistic country in the world (a whopping 85%), and their life expectancy is actually higher than the US...

http://www.indexmundi.com/sweden/demographics_profile.html

Life expectancy at birth

total population: 81.07 years

male: 78.78 years

female: 83.51 years (2011 est.)

http://www.indexmundi.com/united_states/life_expectancy_at_birth.html

Life expectancy at birth: total population: 78.37 years

male: 75.92 years

female: 80.93 years (2011 est.)

Diet and lifestyle plays an important role in one's life span.

Some people like to feel "tough and independent" by rejecting the concept of god. In a way it is a part of the psychological growth of a human from dependent infancy to independent adolescence. FAir enough I say, but they cannot logically impose that self martydom (or separation from god) on anyone else.

As part of the "growing up process" some young people chose to reject their parents and their parents' wisdoms and knowledge; to forgo their parent's protection for an independent existence. Others do not. They become independent adults, without rejecting their parents or their family.

Some people, yes, I could agree with that; however, I also agree much more with the fact that, as we age, we tend to develop a more logical thought process, and begin to question what we have been previously taught.

There is no weakness in chosing a belief and faith in god. In a way it is a weakness to chose to "abandon" belief in god. A weakness of self interest, placing independence above wisdom, learned knowledge, etc.

I've only abandoned the belief simply because I don't see any evidence to reinforce it.

Psychologically, it is a costly and unnecessary declaration of individuality, like the teenager who leaves home "to be free." One can find freedom in many forms, and you dont have to abandon prior "understood truths" to achieve independence or freedom.

One can only be totally and completely free when one knows/ understands, the truths of life, and incorporates them into "his" way of living.

So, do you think I should just come to my senses and simply believe in God...? It would be much easier, hrm? Might as well...

[Cybele]

There is no weakness in chosing a belief and faith in god. In a way it is a weakness to chose to "abandon" belief in god. A weakness of self interest, placing independence above wisdom, learned knowledge, etc.

One doesn't have to believe in God to find wisdom in and live according to the tenets of religion. Perhaps people who abandon a belief in God value a different kind of wisdom and learned knowledge--of the sort that doesn't require blind faith.

Psychologically, it is a costly and unnecessary declaration of individuality, like the teenager who leaves home "to be free." One can find freedom in many forms, and you dont have to abandon prior "understood truths" to achieve independence or freedom.

One can only be totally and completely free when one knows/ understands, the truths of life, and incorporates them into "his" way of living.

This is a pretty bold assumption. Forget individuality, many people who lack belief do so because they are unable or unwilling to force themselves to have faith in the absence of compelling evidence.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Cybele

[Mr Walker]

name='Cybele' timestamp='1329632155' post='4208316']

One doesn't have to believe in God to find wisdom in and live according to the tenets of religion. Perhaps people who abandon a belief in God value a different kind of wisdom and learned knowledge--of the sort that doesn't require blind faith.

Very true. But religion is one form of selflessness. A person who encompasses something bigger than themsleves, be it faith or community, is a better person than one who only considers and looks at self.

Wisdom that only benefits self is not enough. So basically religion is ONE form of learned wisdom and also is a form of community interest. To put comunity and wisdom before self is a good and wise and right thing to do. It is also a more dificult and courageous thing to do Putting self first is natural and thus easy. Putting something bigger, first, is harder.

This is a pretty bold assumption. Forget individuality, many people who lack belief do so because they are unable or unwilling to force themselves to have faith in the absence of compelling evidence.

Again very true. But belief and disbelief in the absence of evidences, are the opposite sides of the same coin.

My point was directed at WHY people chose one side of the coin or the other. It is very evident from many posters comments over long periods that SOME, especially young adults see declaring independence from god as a liberating decalration of independence akin to declaring their indpencdence from their parents authority.

But no mature person is ever under anyone elses authority. Personal freedom, and the realisation that one is free, is an innate property of maturity.

IMy question is about the wisdoms and benefits to be gained form each choice. A person who choses total freedom from their parents and their wisdom and support is, IMO, sacrificing more than they gain. This is also true for those who declare their freedom from god .

One needs a better reason to give up all the advantages of a connection with god(or with parents) than just being independent/free from authority. One can live with parents and with god and stil be an indepndent entity In reality, the only true authority in our lives, as mature adults, is our own concience ethics and moralities.

[Cybele]

Very true. But religion is one form of selflessness. A person who encompasses something bigger than themsleves, be it faith or community, is a better person than one who only considers and looks at self.

Wisdom that only benefits self is not enough. So basically religion is ONE form of learned wisdom and also is a form of community interest. To put comunity and wisdom before self is a good and wise and right thing to do. It is also a more dificult and courageous thing to do Putting self first is natural and thus easy. Putting something bigger, first, is harder.

People who adhere to religion are not necessarily any more selfless than those who do not. Christianity offers complete forgiveness from sin and eternal life. People might follow a faith for these reasons only. Perhaps people who do not believe they can be forgiven for everything through prayer are more likely to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences they entail. Perhaps people who don't follow a faith are more likely to perform acts of kindness and selflessness because they feel it is right and truly care about others, rather than with the selfish goal of pleasing a God and getting in to an eternal paradise.

Edited February 19, 2012 by Cybele

[Mr Walker]

People who adhere to religion are not necessarily any more selfless than those who do not. Christianity offers complete forgiveness from sin and eternal life. People might follow a faith for these reasons only. Perhaps people who do not believe they can be forgiven for everything through prayer are more likely to take responsibility for their actions and the consequences they entail. Perhaps people who don't follow a faith are more likely to perform acts of kindness and selflessness because they feel it is right and truly care about others, rather than with the selfish goal of pleasing a God and getting in to an eternal paradise.

You could be right, but that is not the form of religion or spirituality that I know or am familiar with. Any real relationship with god ( CHRISTIAN BUDDHIST GAEaN SIKH MUSLIM PAGAN ETC,) imposes on people many duties and obligations to others. If one loves all others as oneself, one must treat all others as oneself. A religion based on the belief that one can simply be saved by belief is probably false, and one which does not promote positive action by its adherents is probably fairly useless.

The christian concept of forgiveness involves making things right. One cant be forgiven until one is living right, not just believing right. I know amny people do not appreciate this point but it is so. A real believer WILL modify their life to match their beliefs.

likely to perform acts of kindness and selflessness because they feel it is right and truly care about others, rather than with the selfish goal of pleasing a God and getting in to an eternal paradise.

" Religious" people also perform acts of kindeness for these reasons. Pleasing god is not necessarily selfish when god expaects us to love and care for all others. To please him we have to be very unselfish.

All people are guaranteed, under christianity, eternal paradise unless they chose to surrender that right. It is not a reward for good behaviour but a natural consequence of living in a certain relationship with god and thus with other humans.

Peole who cant live in peace and harmony with others cannot enter heaven because that is how those in heaven will live. One has to give up self, ego, and ones perception of having inalienable individual rights above other humans, to enter heaven because such peole will not exist there. It couldn't be heaven, if we stil thought and acted as we do on earth today.

[encouraged]

Well I am looking for personal experiences and you do provide a reason for an Invention. you still need to explain what you experienced, I mean your NDE and OBE and instead of Scientific explanations you want something else to explain it. I am just making a guess here and it does not in anyway discredit your feelings and the way you wish to explain and believe in the experiences that you had.

Sorry this, installment one of two, is coming so late, as I have been unable to keep up all my duties this week. I also had to reread the posts from page four through to here to make sure I remain pertinent.

I have decided to provide the information of my experiences from my book. It is the easiest way to get this information into the hands of those who might want to discuss this further. Please note that I have offered my book in PDF for free to members of this site. Just PM me if you want it. (It became necessary in order to spoil the comments of those who have been critical of my many references to it.)

As well, it is like I am releasing a condensed version of my book. LOL

I also realize there is the crackpot factor, "He must be nutty as a fruit cake." No, I am stubborn. Somebody has to crack the glass ceiling on this subject. It might as well be an academic and clear thinking, analytical person.

View: My OBE Experiences

[Spock_the_Future]

So, maybe it should be a topic outside my contribution, for I have said about all I can.

Does a more advanced entity take the innate "god" concept and has he through the eons shaped it to be a definition of himself through rare actions of direct revelation? Does it stay pure or become tarnished by the human factor?

Hi,

was able to find a bit of time, busy week here, All I can say here is "You Said it". Well I hope you are not talking about aliens here. I love X-Files and do believe that truth is out there and I also tend to believe almost anything but still this seems somewhat too hypothetical (Please do excuse me for saying so, you believe what you do and I am still in the learning phase). Can't say that it makes people invent something, you are stating something I did not ask.

[encouraged]

Hi,

was able to find a bit of time, busy week here, All I can say here is "You Said it". Well I hope you are not talking about aliens here. I love X-Files and do believe that truth is out there and I also tend to believe almost anything but still this seems somewhat too hypothetical (Please do excuse me for saying so, you believe what you do and I am still in the learning phase). Can't say that it makes people invent something, you are stating something I did not ask.

I have just learned to be cautious as to the terms I use around here. LOL I would have preferred to have used the word "God", but didn't feel like taking on a mob for so doing. Sorry if the way I said it made it a bit incoherent.

Glad you have gotten some free time... and hopefully some rest.

I guess it would be better if I delivered a summary of the link I point to, then people can get more info from it if that is what they require. time is a challenge here, too!

I just joined this site and am amazed!

http://www.parapsych.org/users/encouraged/profile.aspx

Edited February 29, 2012 by encouraged

[Spock_the_Future]

I have just learned to be cautious as to the terms I use around here. LOL I would have preferred to have used the word "God", but didn't feel like taking on a mob for so doing. Sorry if the way I said it made it a bit incoherent.

Glad you have gotten some free time... and hopefully some rest.

I guess it would be better if I delivered a summary of the link I point to, then people can get more info from it if that is what they require. time is a challenge here, too!

I just joined this site and am amazed!

http://www.parapsych.org/users/encouraged/profile.aspx

Yep I agree, Time IS a challenge and jobs are too. No rest here till now, Still delivery on my head and not much of time for the deadline left. Just wanted to take my mind off and re-concentrate again, will have to get into the SSDD(Watch Dreamcatcher(Spelling ) or better read the novel). There have been posts about the reason of us being there because we are the end product of Evolution and no grand design. What would you say to all that, do we need GOD to have hope ? Or do we need hope and invent GOD for it ? Just to explain why we hope, what do you say ? Hope for a better afterlife, better life in reincarnation ? souls and all that ? Hope !!!! How to define where it starts and what it leads us to believe ? Beats me, tell me what you think !!

[encouraged]

Yep I agree, Time IS a challenge and jobs are too. No rest here till now, Still delivery on my head and not much of time for the deadline left. Just wanted to take my mind off and re-concentrate again, will have to get into the SSDD(Watch Dreamcatcher(Spelling ) or better read the novel). There have been posts about the reason of us being there because we are the end product of Evolution and no grand design. What would you say to all that, do we need GOD to have hope ? Or do we need hope and invent GOD for it ? Just to explain why we hope, what do you say ? Hope for a better afterlife, better life in reincarnation ? souls and all that ? Hope !!!! How to define where it starts and what it leads us to believe ? Beats me, tell me what you think !!

My most memorable thoughts about the topic of hope come from two occasions:

1. Frankel's book named the Holocaust (the second half was his treatise on his new treatment called Logotherapy)
   
2. My return to the USA after being in Australia
   

The first being the amazing find that Frankel, a psychiatrist discovered that loss of hope correlated to loss of life soon thereafter, and that those who maintained hope maintained the ability to survive further.

When I returned from Australia the evangelical fundamentalist Christians with whom I hung were a huge disappointment in their opinions of America; "going down the tubes," "all the schools are dangerous," "public education was a failure," one horrible absolute after the next.

As a result, at the next family get together everyone but I got onto the "Knock America" topics. I finally confronted some of the talk, and presented a Scripture passage in which Jesus declares how important "hope" is in life. My one brother was convicted of his complaining and began reasoning that I was right with the others. The essence of, "How can Christians be seen as loosing hope? They are the ones who are supposed to have hope!"

Now you may not quickly recognize the various combinations of contrasts these two items present, but here is what I learned from that:

• It would be wrong to conclude that religious beliefs are not a factor in matters of hope.
  
• It would be right to conclude that people who are faced with the worst of life's problems turn to the hope their religion provides.
  
• It would be right to conclude that people who are not facing the worst of life's problems ignore or have no need at the time for the hope that comes from their religion.
  

So, what could I conclude from such a series of reflections on hope? Hope provides the things we need to survive when the going gets tough. Would man invent god in order to have the provision of hope available to him at life's worst? I don't think man would know to invent god in advance so as to have that provision available.

So, in segments I would say:

• If god did not already exist, man would invent him.
  
• If god did not already exist, man would not invent him in order to have the provision of hope available.
  

I just don't see man having the foresight of planning ahead for a worst case scenario that he could probably not imagine happening beforehand. This is because while comfortable with life, man doesn't value hope enough to know he will be needing it.

This is a first blush opinion. I may or may not have more to contribute later. If I didn't answer something then let me know I will watch this more closely. Also, let me know if you want me to spend more time on it and relating factors.

color for edits

Edited February 29, 2012 by encouraged