Spear of Destiny

[Coyote Speaks]

I know that there have been several topics on the spear already. The quick summary is that the "spear of destiny" is Longinus' spear, the one used to pierce Jesus' side. The spear supposedly gives the one who carries it the ability to never fall in battle, but if it falls out of their hands, then they die. The spear's legend traces it to everyone from Alexander the Great to Hitler. Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

A recent episode of Brad Meltzer's Decoded went into the history of the spear and ended on a rather odd note. Apparently there are groups of people still searching for this thing? The last clip mentioned a group called "The Sons of the Fallen" who worship Lucifer as the true God and either have or are searching for the spear.

Any thoughts from you guys?

[Abramelin]

You know about 'matches', right? Those little sticks to light your cigaret, or your nose if you happen to be blind.

Here in the Netherlands we call those things "lucifers".

But hey, we Dutch are the "Sons and Daughters of the Fallen".

God-The-Great-White-Bearded-Father-In-Heaven wants to drown us, but we fight back... building dikes, lol.

[Habitat]

Rumours (and legends) are apt to be wrong.

[Coyote Speaks]

You know about 'matches', right? Those little sticks to light your cigaret, or your nose if you happen to be blind.

Here in the Netherlands we call those things "lucifers".

But hey, we Dutch are the "Sons and Daughters of the Fallen".

God-The-Great-White-Bearded-Father-In-Heaven wants to drown us, but we fight back... building dikes, lol.

Your comment about the blind made me think of that scene in the old Frankenstein film...

Rumours (and legends) are apt to be wrong.

Of course, I'm just curious as to whether or not there are groups of people taking it that seriously.

[Abramelin]

Your comment about the blind made me think of that scene in the old Frankenstein film...

Of course, I'm just curious as to whether or not there are groups of people taking it that seriously.

LOL, that scene was what I was thinking of, but I changed 'thumb' into 'nose'.

Btw: I remember watching a documentary on National Geographic about that "Spear of Destiny".

Very intersting doc. Did you watch it?

.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Abramelin

[Coyote Speaks]

LOL, that scene was what I was thinking of, but I changed 'thumb' into 'nose'.

Btw: I remember watching a documentary on National Geographic about that "Spear of Destiny".

Very intersting doc. Did you watch it?

The one where they examined the different spears claiming to be it? If so, yes. I was very disappointed when Decoded took the time to examine the Vienna spear because the documentary already covered that... but oh well. I find the spear one of the more interesting legends due to how many people throughout history have taken it so seriously.

[Habitat]

Is there solid evidence that Hitler was interested in this sort of stuff, or is it that just another legend in itself ?

[Englishgent]

It may well be an interesting subject but just how do they prove anything like this? They cant. So, anyone who takes this legend seriously cannot be expected to be taken seriously IMO

The other thing I find strange about it is this. If the spear was used to pierce the side of this guy Jesus while he was on the cross, why does it give power to anybody weilding it? Who gives it this power. The christian god? Surely if this god exists and it was his son who was on the cross, would god not rather curse anyone holding this spear?

Or is it this so called 'satan' chappie who gives the spear it's power. I was always told that the christian god was all powerful. Surely he would not let a little thing like satan take over?

Anyway, they are pointless questions because just like all the other religious relics, none will ever be found.

edit,,,typo

Edited February 4, 2012 by Englishgent

[Coyote Speaks]

Is there solid evidence that Hitler was interested in this sort of stuff, or is it that just another legend in itself ?

If I'm not mistaken there were a few mentions of it proven to go back to him. I can't dredge them up right now (I'm working on a few other things) but someone will probably come around and either correct me or validate it. Either way, as I mentioned in a previous comment, I think it's an interesting topic.

What I as hoping to find out and discuss is more whether or not there are groups particularly interested in it now.

[Coyote Speaks]

It may well be an interesting subject but just how do they prove anything like this? They cant. So, anyone who takes this legend seriously cannot be expected to be taken seriously IMO

The other thing I find strange about it is this. If the spear was used to pierce the side of this guy Jesus while he was on the cross, why does it give power to anybody weilding it? Who goves it this power. The christian god? Surely if this god exists and it was his son who was on the cross, would god not rather curse anyone holding this spear?

Or is it this so called 'satan' chappie who gives the spear it's power. I was always told that the christian god was all powerful. Surely he would not let a little thing like satan take over?

Anyway, they are pointless questions because just like all the other religious relics, none will ever be found.

Half the things discussed here can't be proven one way or the other, they're just fun to discuss. I think it's an interesting thing to think about, a decent sort of plot in general.

The reasoning behind that is that it had his blood on it, I suppose. The spear that kills a god (or something partially divine) would surely have some sort of significance, wouldn't it?

If you don't find the discussion interesting, though, not much point staying in the thread, hm?

[Englishgent]

Half the things discussed here can't be proven one way or the other, they're just fun to discuss. I think it's an interesting thing to think about, a decent sort of plot in general.

The reasoning behind that is that it had his blood on it, I suppose. The spear that kills a god (or something partially divine) would surely have some sort of significance, wouldn't it?

If you don't find the discussion interesting, though, not much point staying in the thread, hm?

Hi Coyote.

I think maybe you misread my post. I started off by saying (quote)

''It may well be an interesting subject but......''

After that I just made some input into the thread regarding my own questions and opinion.

Permission to stay please?

[Coyote Speaks]

Hi Coyote.

I think maybe you misread my post. I started off by saying (quote)

''It may well be an interesting subject but......''

After that I just made some input into the thread regarding my own questions and opinion.

Permission to stay please?

It's difficult to tell tone when posts are just typed out... Apologies for the misreading, of course you can stay! I didn't mean to snap or anything! A few topics I began previously just got dismissed out of hand and never even got interesting speculation. I was a bit afraid this one would go the same way.

[Englishgent]

It's difficult to tell tone when posts are just typed out... Apologies for the misreading, of course you can stay! I didn't mean to snap or anything! A few topics I began previously just got dismissed out of hand and never even got interesting speculation. I was a bit afraid this one would go the same way.

That is always a problem with the internet. You dont hear the tone of the person speaking (typing even)

[Coyote Speaks]

That is always a problem with the internet. You dont hear the tone of the person speaking (typing even)

Hence the evil that are emoticons... they truly are necessary.

Really, though. What do you think of the reasoning behind the spear having such supernatural powers? If we consider God being non-interventionist then his son could be killed (alternately, we could assume that it is His will with the outcome being the same.) The item that deals the deathblow and sheds holy blood would have some sort of power behind it.

On the other hand, if we view Jesus as a merely historical figure.. his followers would probably still view the spear that dealt his deathblow as important. You're still watching your leader/man of import being murdered, it would make sense to assume it has some sort of mystical power attached to it.

Again, this is just speculation and trying to make sense of the legend. The thought process seems to follow quite naturally, for me at least. What are your thoughts?

[Habitat]

If it wasn't that particular spear, it would have been another. Any other. Attaching significance to the spear, or the so-called "holy grail", or any other object that happened to lying about at the time, plumbs the depths of silliness, IMO. It is a way of completely missing that which matters, and concentrate on irrelevancies,incidentals that have less importance to the story than a stage prop in a Shakespearean play.

[Coyote Speaks]

If it wasn't that particular spear, it would have been another. Any other. Attaching significance to the spear, or the so-called "holy grail", or any other object that happened to lying about at the time, plumbs the depths of silliness, IMO. It is a way of completely missing that which matters, and concentrate on irrelevancies,incidentals that have less importance to the story than a stage prop in a Shakespearean play.

I think it's human nature to attach significance to a particular item/place/etc. It certainly has been going on throughout most of our history. While I agree that it misses the point, isn't it still important to consider if other people are taking it seriously? In this case, at least, if a group such as "Sons of the Fallen" do exist?

[Habitat]

To attach particular importance to inanimate objects that would have been readily substitutable is more a way of disrespecting the animate player(s) in a drama, than anything else. I can understand the Brits fixated on the Spitfire aeroplane for its pivotal role in the battle of Britain, or the Russians the T-34 tank, neither of which could have been substituted for by any old replacement, to my mind the quality that can be best ascribed to seekers of lost spears is feeble-mindedness, they need all the artificial and magical powers they can harness !

[Englishgent]

Hence the evil that are emoticons... they truly are necessary.

Really, though. What do you think of the reasoning behind the spear having such supernatural powers? If we consider God being non-interventionist then his son could be killed (alternately, we could assume that it is His will with the outcome being the same.) The item that deals the deathblow and sheds holy blood would have some sort of power behind it.

On the other hand, if we view Jesus as a merely historical figure.. his followers would probably still view the spear that dealt his deathblow as important. You're still watching your leader/man of import being murdered, it would make sense to assume it has some sort of mystical power attached to it.

Again, this is just speculation and trying to make sense of the legend. The thought process seems to follow quite naturally, for me at least. What are your thoughts?

There is more than one viewpoint that really should be taken into consideration.

Firstly, from a religous point of view, I could ee somebody attaching great importance and maybe supernatural power to the spear or as Habitat says, to any relic allegedly used or worn or touched even, by their leader. Taking the spear, for example, if a person truly believed he was holding the spear that pierced the side of jesus, then I can see that person believing he has more power than if he was just holding a normal spear. I think though, that any supernatural power attributed to the spear would be in the mind of the person holding it. If not, this spear would have come to light long before now.

Secondly, we need to look at it from a non believers point of view. In this case the spear would be of historical value or importance, but nothing else. No alleged supernatural powers. You only need look inside the many of the 'Black Museums' that Police Forces have (certainly in the UK and I would imagine USA too) to see weapons used by notorious murderers of the past. Many people have a macabre side to them and like to actually see these items for themselves.

What I think we must not do is lose touch with reality. Interesting as it may be, the spear, if it is ever found and proved to be the original, will be just that. A spear. No magical powers. There will always be many deeply relgous people who will believe otherwise and that is perhaps why somebody like Hitler would have found it useful to have in his possession.

[Habitat]

What do you suppose Jesus Christ would have to say about such ratbaggery ? Nothing complimentary I'd say !

[Aus Der Box Skeptisch]

Kinda like Jesus being the finger pointing to the moon? I was directing that after a comment made by habitat.

Edited February 4, 2012 by Aus Der Box Skeptisch

[Habitat]

Kinda like Jesus being the finger pointing to the moon? I was directing that after a comment made by habitat.

You'll have to explain that to me, I am a little slow on the uptake.

[Mind_n_Motion]

I know that there have been several topics on the spear already. The quick summary is that the "spear of destiny" is Longinus' spear, the one used to pierce Jesus' side. The spear supposedly gives the one who carries it the ability to never fall in battle, but if it falls out of their hands, then they die. The spear's legend traces it to everyone from Alexander the Great to Hitler. Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

A recent episode of Brad Meltzer's Decoded went into the history of the spear and ended on a rather odd note. Apparently there are groups of people still searching for this thing? The last clip mentioned a group called "The Sons of the Fallen" who worship Lucifer as the true God and either have or are searching for the spear.

Any thoughts from you guys?

I think the concept that there are many "groups" or "societies" that base their workings on 'beliefs' is fascinating as well. Scientific or spiritual, it is very human nature for people to organize themselves into groups based upon shared beliefs (hence this site & forum). To the extensions that some groups go leaves with us either fascination & curiosity or a sense of 'what the f?' & irritation for ignorance of our concept of reality.

I'm curious as well of how cults, groups or societies view the supposed 'Spear of Destiny'. Be it a simple spear or not, it is obviously an object pondered upon enough for people of many walks to give it great significance. What would occur if it was actually found? Like you asked Coyote Speaks, are "The Sons of the Fallen" so hardcore in their beliefs of the spears power that they are going to (compared to our own curiosity or lack there of) great lengths to obtain it? Magical or not, what would be the end result for them if they did obtain it?

[PersonFromPorlock]

Supposedly even if Hitler didn't carry it, he searched for it extensively.

I may be a little odd, but the Nazis strike me as having been mainly childish. Nasty children, to be sure, but it was all "Death to the enemy!" and 'wonder weapons' and 'vast conspiracies' and "No Girls!" and quite a lot of "it's not faiirrr!" and (fortunately for us) incredible short-sightedness, all of which will be pretty much familiar to anyone who was ever a small boy. Anyway, if it'd make for a good comic book, I'm pretty sure the Nazis would go for it. Not Speer (too rational), and not Goering (too cynical), but the rest of 'em.

Edited February 19, 2012 by PersonFromPorlock

[shrewgoddess]

I think this story is fascinating, though there's not a whole lot to take completely serious about its powers, etc. There are a few legends around the origin of the spear. In these, the name of the soldier that stabbed Jesus is Longinus but his fate is different.

In the first one, Longinus was converted to Christianity after piercing Jesus's side. He apparently helped to clean the body and was eventually buried with the sponge that held the blood of Jesus. His body was found and lost something like two times. Because of this conversion, he was named a saint. (He is a saint, that much isn't disputed.)

In the second, Longinus was cursed for stabbing Jesus and sent to a cave to live where each night a lion would come to him and maul him. This would be repeated until the end of time.

Another tale I've heard is that he was cursed to live until Jesus came again, roaming the earth knowing that he helped bring about the death of God's son. That one, I think, however, may be a mash-up of the Centurion and the Wandering Jew tale.

In any case, Longinus was either saved from a curse because he immediately saw the error of his ways or he was cursed. The spear, however, is an inanimate object and so it wouldn't be cursed any more than the shards of the cross would be cursed. First of all, the crucifixion was part of God's plan. Second, these things are inanimate objects that were then touched by Jesus and washed in his blood. They are relics of the highest order... or would be, if they truly still existed.

[Englishgent]

I think this story is fascinating, though there's not a whole lot to take completely serious about its powers, etc. There are a few legends around the origin of the spear. In these, the name of the soldier that stabbed Jesus is Longinus but his fate is different.

In the first one, Longinus was converted to Christianity after piercing Jesus's side. He apparently helped to clean the body and was eventually buried with the sponge that held the blood of Jesus. His body was found and lost something like two times. Because of this conversion, he was named a saint. (He is a saint, that much isn't disputed.)

In the second, Longinus was cursed for stabbing Jesus and sent to a cave to live where each night a lion would come to him and maul him. This would be repeated until the end of time.

Another tale I've heard is that he was cursed to live until Jesus came again, roaming the earth knowing that he helped bring about the death of God's son. That one, I think, however, may be a mash-up of the Centurion and the Wandering Jew tale.

In any case, Longinus was either saved from a curse because he immediately saw the error of his ways or he was cursed. The spear, however, is an inanimate object and so it wouldn't be cursed any more than the shards of the cross would be cursed. First of all, the crucifixion was part of God's plan. Second, these things are inanimate objects that were then touched by Jesus and washed in his blood. They are relics of the highest order... or would be, if they truly still existed.

Of course, if this spear truly held supernatural powers, one would expect Longinus to end up as emperor as he was the one who had ownership of the spear and would therefore be able to defeat anyone due to the spears powers. . . He didnt,..... it doesnt

I find it rather odd though, that this guy allegedly pierces jesus with his spear then because he sees the error of his ways he is made a saint?......Nevermind god walking in mysterious ways,,,,the church does too