Trojans were Basques?

[GGG guy]

I want to expand on the territory and people of Zebulun, and their coastal activities. Apparently, they were the resource for both glass, and the purple dye. The sea coast here has a special type sand good for glass, of the soda-lime variety, basically silica, and the territory has the soda lime deposits to suit the requirements for a good clean and clear glassy (vitreous) glass manufacture. These wed links will allow us the put this into context, and allow the locational identity of Zebulun people/s, as mentioned in both biblical text, and recovered artifacts/

The Glassmakers; The Biblical Period - The Jews and Their Progenitors

Deuteronomy 33:19 They will summon peoples to the mountain and there offer sacrifices of righteousness; they will feast on the abundance of the seas, on the treasures hidden in the sand."

The second text stresses the relevance of my mountain-top descriptor, and I believe Kebara Cave here, at Mt. Carmel, in related to the deity Kubera in India.

This also suggest the Basque Zu may be related to both a Sumerian Zi, and a Zebulun Ze. If so, I think it could be defined to mean spirit/soul. This being an Egyptian Ka, that could also be a Turkish dog, or wolf, which I think may mean, the spiriy of the dog wolf, of their Ka, thus a deified wolf spirit, within a similar context. To note that on the Minoan ring Puzzler attached, the statement, they dressed in animal attire (in the ring portrait), but I see these a dressed as wolves. Ant the Lightning mark that appears to be in the sky. This would be my observation from this ring, in addition to.

To see a glass boule at ~1200 BC, I'll attach a web link so we can see one recovered from a sunken ship wreak. The date of this wreck is certain, in my opinion. This article gives analysis for trace composition in the glass recovered, and some insight to both Egyptians, Mycenaean, and Israel glass, of this period.

ScienceDirect.com - Journal of Archaeological Science - The provenance of some glass ingots from the Uluburun

shipwreck

Here's an image of the boule recover from this wreck.

My question would be, are these the same people as from Bad - Tibira By Ur, and Eridu, in Sumeria?

Here's a Bad -Tibira image I found, I don't think its ancient, there wasn't anything about the image from the web site where I obtained this, if I even still have it. However, it begs the question, is Bad Tibira rekated to wolf tamga type tribe, of can a name as Buryan, or Burjan be derive in this city?

Bad - Tibira is the Sumerian 2nd dynasty, said to be from Eridu, the 1st dynasty, I believe, taken from the Sumerian kings list, suggesting, Sumerians could exist before these kings were written down and recorded. This location can be time lined from these factors, but, I don't see this as the actual date historical limits, but, what is known, and that which can be ascertained from what we currently now have from multiple studies.

It could be that Bad -Tibira, as blacksmiths, would have the furnace technology to enable a Zebulun process to actually heat up silica, thereby obtain glass. Bad -Tibira. Bad - Tibera wouldn't have has the proper silica sand, nor the soda-lime deposits. It may be that this glass was an accidental part of of metal smelting process, as slag from Zebulun metal making, because, these sands, and lime were inadvertantly part of the start ore. In this way, one could thereafter, seek out the constituents in this slag, are then refine the process, and make acceptable glassware therefrom. After this, they taught others the process, and likely shipped them boules of glass, from Zebulun, but that other, once understood, could equally find more sources for this start sand, and soda lime deposits. The analysis from Uluburun recovered boules, and the glass beads, could support this type of analysis, at the date of this wreckage.

Did Basque or Iberia Spain people have a glass process of ancient times?

[The Puzzler]

I never made that claim. That was actually your doing as you said:

What I said was:

That the cuneiform script wasn't indigenous to the Hittites is irrelevant to the fact that they adopted it and made it their own for several centuries. Which runs counter to your previous link.

Edit to add: If you'd have said that they has no indigenous written language then we would be in agreement, however you didn't. There is a distinction.

cormac

OK, it was late, I was replying to you saying they DID have a written language, I explained my answer, I agree with they had no indigenous written language.

[The Puzzler]

Does anyone think it a valid idea the Mycenaean world may have collapsed because of the fall of the Hittites, who may have provided financial backing as well as horses, chariots etc to them..?

[cormac mac airt]

Does anyone think it a valid idea the Mycenaean world may have collapsed because of the fall of the Hittites, who may have provided financial backing as well as horses, chariots etc to them..?

Not directly as the end of the Mycenaean Civilization is equivalent to the end of the Late Helladic IIIC (LH IIIC) period c.1060 BC. Which is 120 years after the end of the Hittite Empire.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Not directly as the end of the Mycenaean Civilization is equivalent to the end of the Late Helladic IIIC (LH IIIC) period c.1060 BC. Which is 120 years after the end of the Hittite Empire.

cormac

Yes, but it shows serious decline from some time earlier than it's end, it would take some time to dwindle off, continuing on, maybe in a lesser financial situation, more desperate, raiding and such, until it couldn't sustain itself anymore...

Edited April 16, 2012 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

Yes, but it shows serious decline from some time earlier than it's end, it would take some time to dwindle off, continuing on, maybe in a lesser financial situation, more desperate, raiding and such, until it couldn't sustain itself anymore...

A "serious decline" IMO wouldn't take 120 years. And the Mycenaeans, as a more maritime based civilization wouldn't have needed financial support. Especially from the Hittites. And the need for horses and chariots would have been minimal at best. None of this works in favor of the idea that the fall of the Hittites is responsible for the end of the Mycenaeans.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

A "serious decline" IMO wouldn't take 120 years. And the Mycenaeans, as a more maritime based civilization wouldn't have needed financial support. Especially from the Hittites. And the need for horses and chariots would have been minimal at best. None of this works in favor of the idea that the fall of the Hittites is responsible for the end of the Mycenaeans.

cormac

Hmm, maybe. I'll think about it some more while I take the kids to school, back later.

[cormac mac airt]

Hmm, maybe. I'll think about it some more while I take the kids to school, back later.

It should also be noted that this is the same general timeframe of the "Sea Peoples" referenced in several ancient texts.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I'm just curious, what evidence do you see for Mycenaeans being a maritime based civilisation? What time frame are you speaking?

[The Puzzler]

LHIIIA:2 ware was in the Uluburun shipwreck, and was in use at Miletus before Mursili II burned it ca 1320 BC. At this time, actual maritime trade was the specialty of the Cypriots and Phoenicians (so the presence of LH ware does not necessarily mean the presence of Mycenaeans).

The circulation of goods and produce between centres are attested in Linear B records, though evidence of direct exchange is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

What I see is plenty of what looks like Mycenaeans were sailing all over the place but not much that actually shows they were.

[The Puzzler]

GGG, I don't think I'm much help on the glass making.

[The Puzzler]

Myth has Agenor, the Phoenician King come from Libya, they circumcised themselves, we know some of the Sea People were circumcised, so why wouldn't some of these Sea People be Tyrian relations?

Phoenicians and thier kind are known not to attack each other - the manned Phoenician ships of Alexander refused to attack Carthage. We know Phoenician cities were not attacked by the Sea People, oddly enough, made up of some circumcised men...

Seems like some kind of contingent of Tyrian kin have attacked the Aegean imo.

Around Memphis

Phoenicians from the city of Tyre dwell all round memphis, and the whole place is known by the name of "the camp of the Tyrians." Within the enclosure stands a temple, which is called that of Venus the Stranger.

Read more: Phoenician Colonies http://phoenicia.org/colonies.html#ixzz1sAsVQQO5

That's very interesting because Memphis is the mother of Libya.

In Greek mythology, Memphis was the wife to Epaphus, mother of Libya (Roman name) and sometimes the daughter of Nilus. She and her husband were the legendary founders of Memphis, which bears her name.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memphis_(mythology)

Io is taken to Memphis by Phoenicians - if we combine what Herodotus says with what we know in myth. Epaphus is her son.

Epaphus wife is Memphis, they found Memphis which now is mentioned as being full of Tyrians and a Venus temple.

Memphis, a Tyrian city, conceives Libya with Epaphus.

Western Libya may have grown out of a Phoenician and possible Ethiopian alliance that grew in Far Western Africa, near Tunisia, where ancient Lake Triton was - both these groups were circumcised and Aethiopia in myth is bound with Tyre in many ways. This might be who became some of the Sea People...

[cormac mac airt]

LHIIIA:2 ware was in the Uluburun shipwreck, and was in use at Miletus before Mursili II burned it ca 1320 BC. At this time, actual maritime trade was the specialty of the Cypriots and Phoenicians (so the presence of LH ware does not necessarily mean the presence of Mycenaeans).

The circulation of goods and produce between centres are attested in Linear B records, though evidence of direct exchange is not.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycenaean_Greece

What I see is plenty of what looks like Mycenaeans were sailing all over the place but not much that actually shows they were.

The Mycenaeans weren't in the habit, IMO, of utilizing cities such as Helike, Tiryns, Aegina and Korphos-Kalamianos because they found them aesthetically pleasing. It was because they were useful as port cities. As to the bolded part above, it doesn't negate the possibility either. Nor would an LHIIIA:2 (c.1350 BC) shipwreck necessarily be relevant to what was available before an LHIIIC (c.1060 BC) ending of the Mycenaean Civilization. And neither situation would have anything to do with the collapse of the Hittites. Also, the following should be mentioned as having a significant impact to the Mycenaeans and possibly aiding in their collapse:

The citadel of Mycenae, which in its final form comprised an area of 30,000sqm surrounded by a 900m-long circuit wall, was built on a low rocky hill rising 278m above sea level and approximately 40-45m above the surrounding plain. The hill of Mycenae is nestled between two mountains, Profitis Elias to the north and Zara to the south, from which it is separated by two ravines formed by winter torrents, Kokoretsa and Chavos, respectively; it is, therefore, a natural strong-point, protected by deep gorges and steep rocky sides all around, except its western slope which is the only accessible side, and is constantly supplied with fresh water by the Perseia spring which lies 360m to the east of the citadel and approximately 13m higher than its summit. The hill of Mycenae and the adjacent mountains belong to the western part of the Arachnaion mountain range that divides the Argolid from Corinthia, and rise in the northeastern corner of the Argive plain at the mouth of the only passage connecting the two regions (Tretos gorge or modern Dervenakia) and in the crossroads of the eastward routes to the Hermionid and the Saronic Gulf. The hill of Mycenae, therefore, combines a strong geopolitical location which controls access points to and from the Argolid, and a commanding view of the Argive plain to the south below. The triangular plain of the Argolid, surrounded and isolated by mountain ranges, stretches approximately 14km along the coast and 21km inland. The coastline of the Argolid Gulf shifted repeatedly in prehistoric times as a result of post-glacial melting and alluvium deposits; in the 2nd millennium BC the sea was much closer to the site of Tiryns than the present-day shore line, which must have been the main port of the Argive plain. Finally, a significant fault measuring some 2-4.5km in length, 1.5m in width and a maximum vertical displacement of 3m has been located to the east/northeast of the citadel of Mycenae, showing traces of multiple reactivations in the past, which caused intense local seismic activity in the 13th century BC and considerable damage at Mycenae, Tiryns and possibly Midea.

Source

cormac

[GGG guy]

I like the current debate, which I will avoid for the time being, as its out of my league. However, I want to add some observations. I would see a Gordian knot, as a sailor knot. It's my opinion that the knot/rope people were, and are sailors. So the Phrygia cart, with the Gordian magical knot may derived from Sea People, as a prerequisite to fancy knots.

If Zebulun has beach sand for making glass, then the Black Sea "iron sand" would make both locations appropriate for conducting furnaces and production of glass, or iron, and allow ports, and ships, as this is beach "cleaned" start ore, which would be the best and quickest way to make the objects. The Black Sea iron laden sand would limit this to the iron age, and is also in proximity to the earliest Anatolian iron site by Antkara, Turkey today, its capital. Both Bad Tibira in Sumeria, and glass in Zebulun Lebanon could predate these locations in Anatolia relative to the Iron Age.

My closet approximation for my version of a Scythian (Buryan/Burjan, or Georgia) could be as Hatti, which I think predates the Hittite empire, and could be associated with them. The Zeus image I attached by Harran is said to where a Persian type hat. I have record of a Burjan tribe name fighting alongside Xerxes, so they were within proximity as such, but not Persians. I see Hittites as Persian. The other connection may be as Azerbaijan. However, the is Gorgan as well. In India, this may be as the Jats, or Gujars, I think both related to Georgians.

I want to relate back to the Minoans. I'll attach a web page on the Minoan calendar, which is relative to the axe we've talked about. I also lean to the words axe, axis, and Saxon to be of the same root, being axe. If this axe is also a "Tree of Life", then I'll attach a web link for this astronomical axis from an axe, per this Minoan representation.

The Minoan Calendar

I would say this representation fits your analysis of the axe/Tree of Life connection shown graphically on the batman looking axe as you described Puzzler.

Now this calendar is such that one can deduce the year of Menton (the period when the sun and moon reach equinox, and start over, of which, I see as a in part, as a Hyperborean related concept. Also relative to Apollo's journeys to his homeland, and celebration events.

Metonic cycle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Now I have a second book I'll attach, and it addresses Druids, the Swiss Alps, and Stonehenge, and the Year of Meton.

I have a quicker math for this cycle, which is a non-linear 18.61 years. If one says 18 and 2/3rds (19 rounded off) +18 and 2/3rds (19), + (18) 18 rounded back for the other 1/3, then one can round off to 19+19+18=56 unitized in every three cycles, same as the axe, and same as our current leap year, and accommodates both lunar and solar cycles. Now Stonehenge has 56 post hole locations, and relate to Avebury. Here's a quick read to make a claim to this alignment and constructionof Stonehenge, and Avebury. Note the word "aubrey" holes.

Reason Why Use Purpose Stonehenge Decoded 56 Aubrey Post Holes Woodhenge Ralph Ellis Thoth Architect Universe Won 5 Days Base 6 Dice Game 19 Month Metonic Cycle Every 19 Years Festival Apollo Sun God Land Hyperborean Hai Breasil Hy Brasil Ireland Clan Roots of Atlantean Empire 19 Mayan Months of Maya Daughter of Posidon Sidon Son Canaan Holy Land Genesis Biblical Navigators «

Now I'll add the book that suggest that its the Hyperboreans, in and around the Swiss Alps, and as Druids, and the people responsible for these henge constructs. Likely a few others.

Can they also be Minoans? I think this last book will allow the historical text and some analysis of such authors. It gives their modern approximation, and geographical locations. There is also a blending of Palasgian, Mycenaean, Hyperborean, and Macedonians. I believe this fits both Puzzler's descriptions, and also mine, and many ways, relative to the Basque in France.

Will some geometry and mathematics change anybody's mind for the translation of the name Avebury henge, yet?

Sorry about that. I see this as all workable, and to a Minoan date line, if not the very same people. This should all lead to the Nordic god Buri, and Minoans approaches my 3-2,000 BC target date, to allow an Audumia, from the Land of Fire, which can be Egypt, or Zoroastrian in root. Lycia is also home of the Eternal Flame touted by the Greeks, but I see as perhaps an Indo-Irano concept, and could be applied to any volcanic place that exhibits flames, or lava, or both. Sicily could qualify, or any smoking mountain. A North Hyperborea could have a Northern volcano, and could be the land of fire as such, but I really doubt they would have had a cow as such. India has sacred cows, and both Egypt, and Norse folks could have derived it from this root source. However, domestic cows are very ancient, so one would be hard pressed to express a given root source. I can say though, that DNA strongly suggest the basic livestock of cows in Europe came from Anatolian stock years back. In Norse myths, they are written as a differentiation of North - Land of Ice vs. South - Lands of Fire. They split the world into two basic fundamental climates. North vs. South, and the cow is from this South they express, in my opinion.

My tribe would be in Petra for a Canaan connection. the mountain where the alter sits, and its Holy Well, that was plumbed into the lower city, using enclosed and covered pipe-like canal plumbing. Kind of amazing.

Keep in mind my attachment for India, and Hyperboreans, and relative to Kubera deity. I believe this will tie to the Fertile Crescent, thus Sumeria. The shamans, dogs, and horses from the East, and Central Asia are plenty old enough to bring to the Sumerian time line, even likely before Sumeria, in my opinion. Someone brought irrigation there, so Sumeria is a stepping stone, albeit, an important one. Megalithic stones are also in Zebulun, so I'm in concert with large stone structures. This last book gives some earlier tribe names, but I haven't checked them yet. The Swiss Alps parts are after ~p.170 that covers some of the Gaul parts.

Gomer: or, A brief analysis of the language and knowledge of the ancient Cymry - John Williams - Google Books

Would you agree, my tribe would be likely of this Battle Axe culture? Could a Nordic god named Buri be ascertained from them, the originator? If so, could a location be configured along with a time line? Tough questions I realize, but how could we understand these peoples if these basic factors are left out. I believe I'm making headway, so I'm elated currently with the direction of the research, and in particular Basque regions. I think I'm getting a better picture of the region now, I'm sure of this much. Apparently its safe to say these people deified, and likely had metal gods, if not an axe for a Tree of Life, and a Universal Calendar, all of which recognizes the very same cosmos as we understand today, irrespective of the various religions today. Most of them have these very same fundamentals in their root essence. The Maya part in the one book is equal in intrigue for my GGG global context, and a base tribe name. It's not over yet.

In or around Gaul, here is a replacement for the mushroom. Note the other name as Herba Apollinaris.

Hyoscyamus niger - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

See if some of this logic and suggestions has merit. Also, Puzzler, did the pyramid part previous help for my aspect on the structures? Be back soon. Thanks for the Minoan inputs. I doubt I could rationalize an axe tree myself. I can deal with a Siberian pine though, much more readily. Amazing, GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

The Mycenaeans weren't in the habit, IMO, of utilizing cities such as Helike, Tiryns, Aegina and Korphos-Kalamianos because they found them aesthetically pleasing. It was because they were useful as port cities. As to the bolded part above, it doesn't negate the possibility either. Nor would an LHIIIA:2 (c.1350 BC) shipwreck necessarily be relevant to what was available before an LHIIIC (c.1060 BC) ending of the Mycenaean Civilization. And neither situation would have anything to do with the collapse of the Hittites. Also, the following should be mentioned as having a significant impact to the Mycenaeans and possibly aiding in their collapse:

Source

cormac

The shifting coastline is interesting and could be partly responsible, I'll research that some more. My Dad, when he went to Europe, was quite amazed enough to mention to me, how these old port cities were miles inland, because he realised that the land shape must have changed so much, it was interesting to him.

WHat you say about the ports seems obvious but maybe the ports weren't used by them, so much as others...

They landed at many places on the coast, and among the rest at Argos, which was then preeminent above all the states included now under the common name of Hellas. Here they exposed their merchandise, and traded with the natives for five or six days; at the end of which time, when almost everything was sold, there came down to the beach a number of women, and among them the daughter of the king, who was, they say, agreeing in this with the Greeks, Io, the child of Inachus. The women were standing by the stern of the ship intent upon their purchases, when the Phoenicians, with a general shout, rushed upon them. The greater part made their escape, but some were seized and carried off. Io herself was among the captives. The Phoenicians put the women on board their vessel, and set sail for Egypt. Thus did Io pass into Egypt, according to the Persian story, which differs widely from the Phoenician: and thus commenced, according to their authors, the series of outrages.

Would they have built ships in Greece do you think? I cannot find reference to any dockyards or building areas - I ask then, who furnished the Mycenaeans with their ships?

[cormac mac airt]

Would they have built ships in Greece do you think? I cannot find reference to any dockyards or building areas - I ask then, who furnished the Mycenaeans with their ships?

Considering that they took over after the collapse of the Minoans they would have had to. And they would have learned shipbuilding techniques from the Minoans as well, over and above anything they may have already known, so any ships would have been built by and for them.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I like the current debate, which I will avoid for the time being, as its out of my league. However, I want to add some observations. I would see a Gordian knot, as a sailor knot. It's my opinion that the knot/rope people were, and are sailors. So the Phrygia cart, with the Gordian magical knot may derived from Sea People, as a prerequisite to fancy knots.

Hey yeah, that could be a possibilty.

My closet approximation for my version of a Scythian (Buryan/Burjan, or Georgia) could be as Hatti, which I think predates the Hittite empire, and could be associated with them. The Zeus image I attached by Harran is said to where a Persian type hat. I have record of a Burjan tribe name fighting alongside Xerxes, so they were within proximity as such, but not Persians. I see Hittites as Persian. The other connection may be as Azerbaijan. However, the is Gorgan as well. In India, this may be as the Jats, or Gujars, I think both related to Georgians.

Interesting possibility.

I want to relate back to the Minoans. I'll attach a web page on the Minoan calendar, which is relative to the axe we've talked about. I also lean to the words axe, axis, and Saxon to be of the same root, being axe. If this axe is also a "Tree of Life", then I'll attach a web link for this astronomical axis from an axe, per this Minoan representation.

The Minoan Calendar

I would say this representation fits your analysis of the axe/Tree of Life connection shown graphically on the batman looking axe as you described Puzzler.

Now this calendar is such that one can deduce the year of Menton (the period when the sun and moon reach equinox, and start over, of which, I see as a in part, as a Hyperborean related concept. Also relative to Apollo's journeys to his homeland, and celebration events.

Interesting concept in the double axe calendar, yes, I see the batman shaped axe as the World Tree, how about that, it says this was the special ceremonial axe. Yes, axis, axe imo too - Saxon is meant to come from a word for knife, saxe, so maybe some connection then. May be Apollo related.

Now I have a second book I'll attach, and it addresses Druids, the Swiss Alps, and Stonehenge, and the Year of Meton.

I have a quicker math for this cycle, which is a non-linear 18.61 years. If one says 18 and 2/3rds (19 rounded off) +18 and 2/3rds (19), + (18) 18 rounded back for the other 1/3, then one can round off to 19+19+18=56 unitized in every three cycles, same as the axe, and same as our current leap year, and accommodates both lunar and solar cycles. Now Stonehenge has 56 post hole locations, and relate to Avebury. Here's a quick read to make a claim to this alignment and constructionof Stonehenge, and Avebury. Note the word "aubrey" holes.

Reason Why Use Purpose Stonehenge Decoded 56 Aubrey Post Holes Woodhenge Ralph Ellis Thoth Architect Universe Won 5 Days Base 6 Dice Game 19 Month Metonic Cycle Every 19 Years Festival Apollo Sun God Land Hyperborean Hai Breasil Hy Brasil Ireland Clan Roots of Atlantean Empire 19 Mayan Months of Maya Daughter of Posidon Sidon Son Canaan Holy Land Genesis Biblical Navigators «

Now I'll add the book that suggest that its the Hyperboreans, in and around the Swiss Alps, and as Druids, and the people responsible for these henge constructs. Likely a few others.

I have no idea really on all this but you should follow it through if you see connections you are looking for. I have heard Stonehenge referred to in ancient text as Apollo's Temple...sacred flame was also in Apollo's Temple in Greece...In the inner hestia ("hearth") of the Temple of Apollo, an eternal flame burned. Delphi - Wiki

Rome had this too, possibly Venus based (Aeneus mother, Trojan Goddess) - in Vesta and the hearth of Rome, protected by Vestal Virgins, of which Rhea Silvea was one.

Would you agree, my tribe would be likely of this Battle Axe culture? Could a Nordic god named Buri be ascertained from them, the originator? If so, could a location be configured along with a time line? Tough questions I realize, but how could we understand these peoples if these basic factors are left out. I believe I'm making headway, so I'm elated currently with the direction of the research, and in particular Basque regions. I think I'm getting a better picture of the region now, I'm sure of this much. Apparently its safe to say these people deified, and likely had metal gods, if not an axe for a Tree of Life, and a Universal Calendar, all of which recognizes the very same cosmos as we understand today, irrespective of the various religions today. Most of them have these very same fundamentals in their root essence. The Maya part in the one book is equal in intrigue for my GGG global context, and a base tribe name. It's not over yet.

Audumbla(= she is rich with milk) The food giving cow. She is a symbol for life and fertility. Audumbla was the second living being on earth, after Ymir, the father of the giants. The cow feed herself on the salt that was within the ice. From her udder four milkflows came. The giantfather Ymir drank of those to let his strength grow. The cow licks the human being Buri out of the icy stones.

http://inanna.virtualave.net/slavic.html

Food giving - life and fertility seem to be connected with her - the female cow may be seen as a possible equal to mothers in general, like Mother Goddesses, like Isis maybe - this may be the same thing. Hard to say what your tribe would be, genetic testing is probably a good option.

See if some of this logic and suggestions has merit. Also, Puzzler, did the pyramid part previous help for my aspect on the structures? Be back soon. Thanks for the Minoan inputs. I doubt I could rationalize an axe tree myself. I can deal with a Siberian pine though, much more readily. Amazing, GGG guy.

Yes, tower building could originate in the areas of the Himalayas to Siberia imo - even in the Bible the tower builders come from the East - they seem to have a sky God they are trying to reach - like the Pyramid, shooting out of a huge 'tower'. The pine could be the same - all trees of life, axles of the world, that took you to the stars themselves, something like that, I need to try and compile some stuff together to see proper connections, but yes, I'm quite amazed at the Labrys being what seems a Tree of Life, the Pine as a Christmas Tree is probably the same, pyramids, the bird on the top of those axes is reminding me of the constellation of Cygnus, the swan of the North, possibly even in West Euro. cave art from 14,000BC. I need to also think more about the Labrys as the Tree of Life and how that fits in more - it probably connects to the Labyrinth - the bull horns were on that Minoan Calendar at the top and the Minotaur is in the middle of the labyrinth - something there imo.

Some think this is the Pleiades above Taurus...

http://www.environmentalgraffiti.com/sciencetech/what-the-lascaux-cave-paintings-tell-us-about-how-our-ancestors-understood-the-stars/15506

Also worth a thought, or two...

This is the deep layer of meaning in many Paleolithic cave paintings that goes beyond sympathetic hunting magic. This is a multidimensional, mythological layer whose journey in the millennia to follow will connect with Stonehenge as a future article shall discuss. This deeper layer is also metaphysical and mathematical, and relates to the adamantine oneness of Vedic, Hindu and Buddhist cosmology. The complexity of mind revealed in late Upper Paleolithic cave art is akin to that expressed much later in history by ancient Vedic philosophers whose art form was Sanskrit poetry.

I want to try and read that whole website, it looked interesting as I scanned it over.

[The Puzzler]

I said Alexanders ships before, I meant the Persian ships (wouldn't attack Carthage as they were Phoenician built and manned ships).

[The Puzzler]

Considering that they took over after the collapse of the Minoans they would have had to. And they would have learned shipbuilding techniques from the Minoans as well, over and above anything they may have already known, so any ships would have been built by and for them.

cormac

This website, which I have seen before, I remember now, has some good info too. It does seem likely I guess, I'd like to know more about it all, anyway, it's off topic, so I'm moving on.

http://www.salimbeti.com/micenei/ships.htm

[GGG guy]

The former book I attached is interesting because it allows for an ancient migration from Spain through Italy, and includes Macedonian parts. Thus is very similar to the Basque-Slavic-Macedonian languages that Puzzler is seeking, There is some tribal names given therein, but I need to review these suggestive avenues yet to see how it may play in. I've always allowed for an West to East version in migrations, but my evidence for this seems weak in my tribe study, and, there is no doubt there exist a basic East to West trend over time populating Europe.

The Zebulun glass is awkward to me yet with respect to Lebanon, but there was also the mention of the infamous purple dye called Tyrian Purple dye. Here a quick link for this dye history. Note the reference to the dog star, Sirius. Note also the story concerning Hercules, and his dog that in the myth, is said was the first to discover this. Are Phoencians p/o Zebulun tribes? Note their reference to Minoans as the possible origin for this dye.

Tyrian purple - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Equally important is this dye made in Italy at Coppa Nevigata. Also attached to the wiki page above. This location fetches a date of ~1800 BC for this type of dye process in Italy.

Coppa Nevigata - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And, a version, also attached in the wiki page, as it was made in Ireland regions, too. I can't say why its named "dog", but would be suggestive that the folks from above likely worked this in Ireland, and carried over the dog descriptors.

Dog whelk - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The other locations given like the Canary Islands, and Morocco, Spain, etc. all mean the same to me, to say, I think they are wolf tribe people, so be it.

My information would suggest that earlier Sea Peoples could redily build ships using the Lebanon forest, the regional lumber champions. There is even myths, and beast written around these forest. Cedar wood is on their flag, Noah's ark material as well.

These locations are tied to Minoans, so it seems, perhaps the primogenitor, of the cities, and the dye. For me I have the problem of the Phoencian, Barat name, which in actuality, is your problems too. In spite of my surname, this isn't just my personal issue. Maybe we will catch on to this, I hope.

I also need to say that I can in theory equate a Zeus on Crete, and isolate this to one end of Crete, and then have a Central Minoan, and Phoenicians at the other end, to the west. Or, perhaps a Siberian tribe was the earliest peoples, such as Minoans. Could be Basque people, that also went to Siberia. Could Be Libyans as Li-Buryans. Same as I-Berians. Thus, it could be Celt - I - Berians, in liue of Celt-Iberians, or Celtiberians as we now would write. I'm reasonably comfortable with a Ze Bulun, where Bulun is the descriptor root for the name Zebulun. Do I have these correct, or is there an opinion?

See what you make on the purple dyes, and date line. Thanks for the other feedback.

[GGG guy]

I located a pdf file for an abstract on yDNA, and covers both Basque, and Iberian-Spain populations. It includes both R1a and R1b types of haplogroups, and additional others, in a global context. It provides timeline dates with tolerances. Anatole Klyosov is the person who assisted myself concerning my R1a1 yDNA test results. In light of this, his abstract mentions the early Basque vs. a later Basque, and he also mentions an archaeological site in Germany, and a R1a1 type gene determined from a person/s found in this local. There is a mention of an early Macedonian around 10-8,000 BC, and I think, this is perhaps part of a Minoan connection. There is the concept included that this was an early group that radiated out in many directions from here. Because this is a pdf file, it make take a bit longer to download.

DNA_Genealogy_Part_2.pdf (application/pdf Object)

I want to re-read this and I haven't determined yet just how to accommodate all of the dates given. I think though that my Battle Axe culture as Saxons likely still holds in good order with my tribal factors. The Iberia Caucasus, and Iberia Spain is difficult to bridge as of the same ethos.

See if this accommodates our general DNA thinking, or, if there something that limits his estimates to our current thinking for a Basque timeline herein. I consider his R1a1 in Southern India as similar to the paper I attached herein for the Kubera god in India. I recall he originated in South India first. I don't know if the date/s are consistent with the origin for this Kubera god. He also has issue with the Basque language timeline, which he leaves on the table. Antole works to DNA science, and reflects data based on those methods. He does attempt to tie to a few major migrations, such as the Aryans inavading into India, so I think this is a worthy overview. I may comment more on this DNA abstract but I'm attempting to follow up on the German relics he mentions. I think I can confirm some of his estimates, such as the Battle Axe culture being perhaps the root to the Nordic god pantheon, and, some of his additional regions. Apparently, Macedonia has an early culture and would reflect Puzzler's agricultural roots mentioned (Thessaly), that went to Europe therefrom.

I would weight his paper very high for the purpose of modeling. See if this is an aid to our discussion. I also think this is written for a DNA layman as myself, and I think Anatole is at least clear in his meanings. GGG guy.

[The Puzzler]

Yes, interesting paper.

"The Basque ancient and unique language was bought to Iberia around 3600ya (1600BC) by the R1b1b2 bearers from their place of preceeding locations and their origin, presumable in Asia, where they had left many thousands of years ago."

That date is timeframe of the Thera eruption. It goes against what I've been thinking but actually makes insane sense, if the Basques in fact, were migrators out of Thera before the eruption, not the other way around as I first thought.

My original premise was based on the looks and styles of the Basques and Cretans and Therans, then the language in Asia Minor, Phrygia and names in myths - it seemed the Basques may have taken it East but what seems to be showing is that it was taken West! (This has given me some food for thought.)

[cormac mac airt]

Yes, interesting paper.

"The Basque ancient and unique language was bought to Iberia around 3600ya (1600BC) by the R1b1b2 bearers from their place of preceeding locations and their origin, presumable in Asia, where they had left many thousands of years ago."

That date is timeframe of the Thera eruption. It goes against what I've been thinking but actually makes insane sense, if the Basques in fact, were migrators out of Thera before the eruption, not the other way around as I first thought.

My original premise was based on the looks and styles of the Basques and Cretans and Therans, then the language in Asia Minor, Phrygia and names in myths - it seemed the Basques may have taken it East but what seems to be showing is that it was taken West! (This has given me some food for thought.)

If this is giving you "food for thought" Puzzler, then might I advise you change foods as it's also giving you indigestion. The Basque language is said to be NOT Indo-European, therefore it predates the influx of Indo-European into Europe, as well as farming, that came with R1b1a2/M269 via Anatolia circa 7000 BC. The Basques, as with the Sami and Berbers, predated the Therans by several millenia at least. On top of that, as we've already discussed before the descendant haplogroup, R1b1a2a1a1b has been in Iberia since c.6630 +/- 1529 BC.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

I think this is interesting:

except the Balkans, present-day bearers of R1a1 across Western and Eastern Europe

have common ancestors who lived between 3550 and 4725 years ago (the “youngest” in

Scotland, Ireland and Sweden, the “oldest” in Russia (4725±520 ybp) and Germany

(4,700±520 ybp),

(d) the Indian R1a1 haplotypes show a good match with the Russian Slavic R1a1 ones,

having a common ancestor several hundred years

”younger” compared to the Russian one

(4300±560

vs. 4,725±520 years bp); this supports a concept of proto-Slavic migration to

India as Aryans (according to classic ancient Indian literature) around 3600 years before

present,

(e) South India Chenchu R1a1 match the current Russian Slavic R1a1 haplotypes, and

their (Chenchu R1a1) common ancestor appeared some 3200±1900 ybp, apparently after

the R1a1 migration from the North to India;

"The oldest in Russia and Germany" R1a1 c. 2700BC

"The Russian-Slavic ones show a good match to Indian R1a1" which supports a proto-Slavic migration to India as Aryans c. 1600BC (that date again).

Early Russian and German R1a1 imo entered Scandinavia as well.

The Russian-Slavic people (a later branch of the earlier people who moved into Scandinavia) crossed into India.

Asaland has been bandied about as being Azerbaijan, which is situated exactly where Snorri says Asaland was and from where Odin came from. This area became a Persian satrapy and was known as a place of Zoroastrianism and fire worship.

It's also in the Caucasus, the area oddly in everything - from Mt Ararat to where Prometheus was chained and that R1b, the same as Western Europeans. Just taking it in for now.

[The Puzzler]

If this is giving you "food for thought" Puzzler, then might I advise you change foods as it's also giving you indigestion. The Basque language is said to be NOT Indo-European, therefore it predates the influx of Indo-European into Europe, as well as farming, that came with R1b1a2/M269 via Anatolia circa 7000 BC. The Basques, as with the Sami and Berbers, predated the Therans by several millenia at least. On top of that, as we've already discussed before the descendant haplogroup, R1b1a2a1a1b has been in Iberia since c.6630 +/- 1529 BC.

cormac

It seems to me they are placing R1b lower in time as when it arrived in Europe.

As discussed above, in articles published around 2000 it was proposed that this clade been in Europe before the last Ice Age,^[27] but by 2010 more recent periods such as the European Neolithic have become the focus of proposals. A range of newer estimates for R1b1b2, or at least its dominant parts in Europe, are from 4,000 to a maximum of about 10,000 years ago, and looking in more detail is seen as suggesting a migration from Western Asia via southeastern Europe.^{[2][7][11][14]} Western European R1b is dominated by R-P310.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_R1b_(Y-DNA)

The dates you give seem to be basically guesses on when a group of IE speakers might have come in, which above it might have only been around 2000BC. If they are so connected to the haplogroups of IE speakers, why don't they speak it - it's not like they would have been there when they arrived, if they came in with them.

Indo-European imo is not as old as they keep making out either and most of that is just guesses too - I can make up proto-words as well. None of it is solid imo based on all these interpretations and guesses based on likely scenarios.

Nor do I think the Basque language was as isolate as being made out is is. I have found plenty of examples throughout this thread that align with Basque meanings from other languages or unknown pre-Greek languages.

But I'll check it all out some more.