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The Puzzler

Trojans were Basques?

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cormac mac airt

It doesn't mean the same line of people cannot be Trojans.

It does mean, however, that there is no way of distinguishing who was or wasn't a Trojan, particularly as we have no genetic evidence of that specific group of peoples. Nor, therefore, is there any way to determine how they were related to the Iberians, with any specificity, even if they were. Without evidence to support the contention, any argument based on "X lived in Anatolia, Y descended from peoples migrating through Anatolia, therefore Y is a descendant of X" is meaningless.

In short, it doesn't mean they are either.


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The Puzzler

It does mean, however, that there is no way of distinguishing who was or wasn't a Trojan, particularly as we have no genetic evidence of that specific group of peoples. Nor, therefore, is there any way to determine how they were related to the Iberians, with any specificity, even if they were. Without evidence to support the contention, any argument based on "X lived in Anatolia, Y descended from peoples migrating through Anatolia, therefore Y is a descendant of X" is meaningless.

In short, it doesn't mean they are either.


I know.

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GGG guy

To bring this blog back to life, Let me add to the Minoan gold ring image Puzzler attached pages back. We may recall the "Thunder Mark" hexagram symbol in the upper sky portion of the scene depicted. We may also recall the Slavic hexagram images of their thunder marks, or as I recall, referred to as lightning marks, or ball lightning, as well. I've made the approximation that a Buryan/Siberian/India tribe could be later in the Sumerian mix of Bad Tibira (blacksmiths), and the later period Kassites, and their storm god Burias, which could possibly lead to Boreas, the Greek version storm god of Northern origins. At this dateline, there is also king Burna Buriash II, as a Kassite, of whom took over Babylon, or, their priesthood and ruling elite installed themselves in Babylon.

If part of my tribal trace, then they can be of the east, in S. Iraq/Iran, and part of the earlier Fertile Crescent. This would then allow the Persian Gulf and the Indus River, and early India civilizations, as the acronym IVC. I will attempt to bring these factors together, for the Minoan ring in question, from Crete, I would presume. Because its made of metal, the artifact itself would be made by blacksmiths, and it could have been carried to where if was found, and not necessarily made by Minoans, nor on Crete. If made by blacksmiths, the images could reflect "blacksmith" type beliefs, whomever the source tribes name may be.

I'll attach a wiki page or two to aid us on definitions. The first one is Indus Valley Civilizations. You may also recall, I attached a descriptor book for the god Kubera, of India, and stated this was a Hyperborean god of the Himalaya mountains, and this would apply as the same, to be the people of the "North", notwithstanding the Norse-Scandinavian Buri/man-Audumia/cow creation deities to be considered equally so.

Indus Valley Civilization - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In the section on science, note the the Indus valley folks had weights and measures, essentially, standards to measure mass, as they were blacksmiths, and they are in concert with Kubera, their god of wealth, that carries a money, or jewel bag as part of his symbols. The treasurer of the gods. Here is a page that addresses his miner/metals/gems connections.

Nidhi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note their weight standards are in the shape of hexagons. If we contend metals are holy gifts from god, whom is deified as meteors, lightning, and fire as in forges, Then, I see this Minoan ring as part of this IVC concept for the hexgram symbol. And, would allow a Slavic counterpart, I would claim as Sumerian-Kassite-Borean-Buri/Daci Romanians, at later dates, i.e. Trojan War dates.

The IVC page also informs us that the blue lapis lazuli was mined by these same people at Shortugai (Badakshan), in Northern Pakistan, I think near to Khyber (Kubera) Pass, if this is really the correct translation of the word Khyber. This location is known for gold and jewels in ancient times. The IVC page is clear as it states that bull leaping images are found in India, and in Minoan location/s, I presume in on Crete. The ring could be from India, or Mesopotamia-Sumeria-Babylon. It states that the IVC culture called Harappan declines in concert with estimated dates of the Aryan Invasion into India period. So this pre-dates this thinking and era, where these Kubera people as Hindu went south into Dravidian areas, and Sri Lanka, another Kubera home place. This seems reasonable, and would allow the Klyosov R1a1 DNA into S. India timeline he references to as an additional way to analyze these periods, or eras, and movements of considerable numbers of people, both Indians and Aryans.

Copper smelting at Haryana is also mentioned as the outermost IVC part to Indus Valley civilizations. Centers at Baniwali, and Rakhigarhi, now in the Hisar district. An est. of 5000 ybp here would allow an early Fertile Crescent connection, and they are said to be very good boat and dock builders.

I will add a second page to address Kubera's characteristics more.

Kubera - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Note here under the section on his early parentage, it states a version where; "He was born from cow". I would suggest this mimics the Nordic-Scandinavian Buri-Audumia, suggesting that Buri and Audumia are of an India-Sumerian-Anatolian-Aryan pantheon, and that the Egyptian Hathor cow would take second base to this, or, originate likewise from this early India cow mother Earth goddess logic. Note also that one of his parents could be named as Idavida, I see as Ida Vida, and would suggest Mt Ida, where Zeus grew up on Crete, and Ida, England's 1st known king.

See if this works as tenable. GGG guy.

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The Puzzler

Ida is a Hindu goddess of the earth, abundant food, and nourishment. She is also the granter of any blessings evoked through her.


This could be Mt Ida type imo - of the Earth, a kind of Earth Mother, which Mt Ida, or Cybele is always said to be.

Mt Ida is a nourisher with abundant food, hence her place as birthplace of some Gods.

Idunn might be connected in name or other ways. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%C3%B0unn

Nisroch also holds a kind of purse and is agriculture. (Earth)


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GGG guy

I feel that the root to Buri and Audumia in the Northern pantheon equatable as described. However, the Indus Valley early civilization/s didn't build any mega structures as such, alowing for impressive ancient dock works found in Gujarat, and early brickmaking known to used in IVC archaeology. An early furnace said to be for ceramics as opposed to metals. Additional reading suggested that the trade with Sumeria was in exchange for metals from here, I could suggest of Bad Tibira. Because The IVC has evidence of gold, tin, lead, and copper (note Cyprus), and that because bronze was also included, tin may have been exchanged, to allow this bronze alloy. I haven't located the tin source yet. This suggest that in Sumeria, Zebulun, and Anatolia, if these are the same people, or tribe/s, then they likely inherited this mason craftsmanship technology later, that then, was also brought to, and incorporated into India's more grandeur temples, built in later eras. The question would remain, where is the synergy of early masons and/or megalith concepts, for source origin timeline. Norse territories aren't known for massive buildings either, or, their wood ones have rotted away. Europe has ring-stones, and tri-megaliths in comparison, at the dates for this IVC activities.

If we follow the Indian god Kubera, then this leads to some other interesting concepts as an early Sea People, and reading suggest that the Red Sea had an open Sea Lane to the Southern Seas to allow an Egyptian trading exchange, but where later, a geological event closed the lane, and isolated the Red Sea to the Mediterranean access. In light of this, and Egypt, there are other global megaliths which may be related related to India, as their respective timelines would allow.

My 1st part of this has to do with Mayans and Aztecs, and I'll attach a web page for this concept. Here, their name for America, for this case, Central America, is claimed to be Quivira recorded by the post-Columbus Spanish. See section under Tamils - Tamales.

Ancient Turks: Who Brought the Mayans to Mexico?

Also, in USA Arizona is another suspect mountain named Baboquivari.

Journey to Baboquivari

Interesting that this second paper is of the same author, Gene D Matlock.

For a better historical chronology concerning ancient India and global studies, I'll attach a third page where all source information is given, and a way to review these topics, or broaden the concepts. I think I could reduce most of this to a Siberian root tribal name as I've stated. Some of these authors I think could corral my concept into theirs. Even if India is Siberian type American Indians, can they also bring this tribe to Europe, and if they say Turks, can they tell us which Turks. My thought is that I believe I can include many of these concepts and incorporate them into my GGG hypothesis into a global circum-navigation well before Columbus. See if this is showing possibilities.

Hindu Wisdom - Pacific

On the Black Irish, and Iberians, which I've never actually heard of, I can say that in Claire County, SW Ireland is the area called "the Burren", which is claomed to be "a rocky place" according to etmology of this word roots, which I claim can also be of Boreans, who lived in this rocky place. The name spelled as Vellabori? - with a question mark as shown. The earliest location data I have suggest it was also an early mine region. I believe I put a map in this blog showing this. Ivereni in S. Ireland I see as Iberni. My second map based on Ptolemy maps shows a village as Ivernis. South Ireland also has the older mining in Ireland and this is the southern end. These should be of the "Black Irish" if they are really Iberians of Spain. Could be Fir Bolg picts, which i still see as miners, in light of the types of bags which may fit the descriptions.

I will back track the comments more as these topics take time to do justice on the questions. I want to relate back to Europes megaliths because this is a real sticker, even for my key tribe of Siberian roots, if I'm correct. This is a timeline problem.

I've also interpreted the Fir Bolg to mean fire rock, or stone, and describe them as miners, because they were said to carry bags of dirt. I we allow a god Kubera type bag, then their bag could have been much smaller, as I picture ore mining as large bags such as the sand bags used in floods, or a gunny sack type. In this revised view, it could be a token bag with a small amount of dirt, perhaps a "sacred-dirt" from their mine. In America, the voodoo, hoodoo-man would carry such a bag with a variety of objects involved in chants, spells, or prophecies. I think they call it a greis-bag, and voodoo orginates in Haiti Isles. In this way, it is very much related to black slaves whom were brought to America, USA south, where this practice in generally in the Central Louisiana state region otherwise called the Cajon belt (French speaking people form Canada whom resettled here, where the term Accadians allows for slang Cajon. There are a neighbor to these voodoo practicing cults. Many likely know this as Cajun music of S. America which has a French (squeeze box - concertina), a fiddle, guitars and mandolins, and some rythymic devices such as a scrub board, a pair of spoons, etc. A cajon is also a Caribbean type drum box. No relation to Sumerian Akkad, or Accad, that I'm aware of.

I think I may have a handle on the Nordic Buri creation theme now, so it may be easier to fill in the blanks. I feel real good about my last thread, and if correct, then this is a very impotant nitch for my GGG concept, and perhaps my surname.

Does any of this change our interpretation for the Avebury henge. In India, there is a myth about a tree with its roots facing up to the sky. Esentially, upside down. This matches Sea henge in Norfolk England. It center piece is an upsidedown Oak tree with its roots facing the sky. Here is where we also find early English coins called "Bury" coins.

I should also mention that figurine dogs, and other animals were found in the IVC of India. A wolf tribe, and dogs could both be here at very early dates. I do believe my Babylonian part as Kassites will connect to Zeus, Carians, and Phrygians (Mt. IDA), and they are thus Trojans. This would imply Trojans are in part R1a (yDNA) if I have this correct, and can match my surname, and DNA test to the equation. Pretty risky to make such a claim, but the data trail would suggest this. Or, my R1a split prior to R1b and thus, I'm related from an earlier epoch, and in fact, my roots personally never went to India or Sumeria, but part of this tribal name did, and their shaman practice. Conversely, I think I may actually have some India in my appearance, so I don't know if I can differentiate the possible avenues to get to Bohemia, if this is even the correct tribe to begin with. I do have some data to support my presumptions in light of these types of factors.

I think I'm stiil making progress, and I think a Basque language of Pakistan may make more sence now, even if we want a megalith timeline. I have yet more to do though to make a good argument in support of my global theory.

The aspect of Ida kind of blows me away because I hadn't realized how much this has been studied already. None of these studies ties Nordic Buri so well to India, that I'm aware of. I suggest this is my own original work, and I consider as my personal intellectual property as such, but yet I do share this in this public domain. I only wish to establish this for notoriety for my work efforts. That is to say, feel free to qute me if there is a desire to exchange my information, but allow my GGG theory as root source for my information. I also try to give my source information as I think these historians need to support their research, as I attempt to support mine. I'm also tracing one tribe, or nearly so, which is a bit unique in comparison to many current theories. I may have to flex from this position, but I think my current approximations will support this idea, even though it brings automatic arguments and speculations. One has to weight data real well, somehow, to retain this part of my theory, and trace a tribe over eons and large geographic domains, agreed.

Thanks for the comments. I don't exact;y know where to turn next. I think I understand this Norse Buri roots now. The question would be to timeline this Norse Buri arrival in Baltic regions. This part if correct, is a rather important for the Hyperboreans, the god Buri, and the wind god Boreas, Odin, and the like. I see this as acheivable, but more work is yet needed. I need more time to review the attachments given, then relate more factors.

There is yet more to be gained. This I'm sure of. GGG guy.

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GGG guy

I found it interesting that that name Kassite is from Kas, or Kush (Cush) to mean "mountain". I see this as consistant with Burg-Berg etc. I have a blog page that gives a timeline in English about a fourth the way into it. The rest is mostly in Russian script, which I can't read, but the timeline has some usable dates. Note the dates 1750 BC is a bit out of sequence as well as there is two listings.


I will cherry pick a few dates from this list.

At 1750 BC it states Kassites (translates Kas-mountain)as a non-Semitic people that conquered most of Mesopotamia with the help of light chariot warfare.

At 1500 BC, identifies Steppes mines at Dzhezkazgan.

At 1200 BC, defines Cimmerians as Turk Kamer, Kimer, to mean "river man". Various other names claimed to be associated and shown as: Suv-ar, Bulak-er (Bulgar/Bolgar), Sub-ar... etc. Also relative to the Pontic Steepe.

At 800 BC, Hesiod wrote... bronze working were Scythians. Early Mesopotamian name for metals as "zubur", indicates that Northern Mesopotamian Subartuans, or, a people of the region were indeed inventors of the process.

At 500 BC, Sarmate is mentioned along with the Budini tribe, well North of the Sarmatians, and claim of blue-eyed, and bright red-haired. Territory is mountain-woods.

At 450 BC, wolf-cult at Nueri (Nevrs) along Hypanis... and with Budins.

I think the Kassite group can link India via the pass in the Hindu-Kush region of the Himalaya mountains, and is also the region of the Pamir Knot where several mountain zones terminate. This would allow an India Hyperborean to be of the Indus Valley peoples, and then allow an early Sumerian, and Caucasus connection, and be blacksmiths too. Because Kassites can be traced to copper and their chariots referenced above.

I'll attach a second page so we can connect Minoans, and Norse myths, and the chariot in the Greek-Minoan zodiac pantheon.


I claim this is same as Norse origins myths, and both Minoan, and Greek would stem from India, and the Kassites of Babylon, whom came from the east, which I claim is of Siberian - Buryans - Hyperboreans whim went to India - Tibet and thus is the same blacksmiths, and the India god Kubera as of the same peoples, which we call Aryans as well. I think they could be in part Kurdish, because they are known to have domestics dogs at very early dates, I recall as Halafians.

I've also thought Hurrians could have another name as Burrians, but perhaps as Bhurrians. On the other hand, some linguist believe Hurrians are same as Subarians (Subareans), which for my key tribe as Buryan, Subarians will work. Note the reference as inventors of metal working, or in the mix, so it seems. Red-hair could represent a forge-fire, and words like "burn", and "ash" could perhaps be related, as in the Babylonian name Burna Buriash II.

In the second attachment, there is the reference to the Corybantes, or the Idaean Dactyls which reflects bact to Lemnos Isle, Hephaestus, and the blacksmiths, and I contend, the Kabeiros cult of Samothrace. There is a reference to the Norse myths as well in the footnotes, but I think my India connection to be the originator of this concept of mother Earth goddess, prior to these later events, and migrations. Because they live in wooded mountains, which seems very consistent, they are goat-sheep peoples, in general. I find consistency in this description, and likey of a wolf tamga, whom likely had dogs first, from Siberian wolf stock. Artemis, and her chariot "reindeer's" would come from Siberia, because these are the female deer variety that exhibits antlers, the Greeks call a hind. Not a stag, which is male and has antlers, too.

The web page explains the constellation Capra, and Auriga - charioteer. Also the twin stars. Seems to me Kassites were big on chariots.

Also, if we deal with mountain names, there is also mountain nymph's called Oriads associated with Artemis, Apollo's sister, and Zeus's offspring. I suggest this is very much the same as Kubera's helpers in the underworld as typified in India. I also think Kubera's turtle symbols are of Siberian influence, taken to India at very early dates. I see roots in Siberian shamans, and the Corbantes as the same as the shamans in general. To mean, India didn't exactly start all of these creator themes, but likely promoted the wide spread use around the globe, as some of the reading strongly suggest. In part due to location and timing. I say this to denationalize these research factors. For me, I just need to be correct on end results, so I understand what transpired.


If I'm correct, then perhaps we could have a ship from India, in Basque country as Iberian affiliates in some way. As Trojans, this would be readily attainable I think, now that I've had a deeper look at the region, and allowing for some of the blogs herein, of which, has helped to elevate some key Basque factors. I think the Pakistan-Basque language part to be also attainable. If we could accept a Minoan connection to India, and earlier dates of ~5000 BC on Crete, then the rest is a wash, in my opinion. Based on our current data, I think I can associate the Levant into the Zebulun mix, likely Benjamin tribe (archers), and I likely don't need to have Egypt, to make the case as yDNA R1a for Europe. I believe I can add into Egypt, but this Kassite-Sumeria part would be one avenue, and likely the earlier one, or, perhaps in competition as the earliest route, but not to exclude a Southern sea route, from India, and using Persian Gulf, Indian Ocean, Sri Lanka, then to Red Sea ports, in theory, before the Red Sea changed due to a catastrophic event that altered the Red Sea access in the South end, where a canal is used today. The Black Sea is also configured to similar catastrophic events, and both likely hold sunken artifacts today.

The timeline suggest that a Norse god Buri occurred relative to Kassites, then would suggest 1750 BC date as approximation when this was carried to the North. I think this happened via the Steppe rivers like the Volga, Dneister, Dneiper, etc..., and not via ship around England, then to the Baltic. However, the megaliths in Europe suggests an earlier date, could be same peoples, but the megaliths wouldn't necessarily have the same gods, goddesses, and religion. I'm dating a mythology here, and attempting to tie it to real tribes and people. This could have evolved, so I need to differentiate the date I'm seeking.

I think these factors helps align my model to include a Kassite player, and I'm sorting the sub-Kassite groups. I can add to this because I have more Iran data yet. I think Kassites may link to Azerbaijan, and Azer could mean fire, or, flaming red-haired "blacksmiths", and their red-hot forge. In the end, it may be this simple. Its all in how you look at these references. Achilles is believe to have red-hair, and as Puzzler pointed out, he followed the wolf, into Lycia. I can deal with the color blue, but red is becoming an equal player in many ways. I'm thinking I can assimilate this color into my tribal study, but will need to contemplate this more yet.

I think the Hindu "cow" is workable for Norse Buri and Audumia (Audumbla, Adamanthea). I also would think that Normans as Northmen, to also be workable, as in Bergen, Norway, where they still retain the Boreas Festival today, from Thuria/ns-Greece origin, if I'm correct.

I think these factors align real well, even though, many of these are new to to me. I don't think this is just luck. Anyone agree? You can't just make this stuff up, can you? GGG guy.

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GGG guy

I decided to add some additional information on the word "ash", as I stated that the Babylon king named Burna Buriash II could have a blacksmith type tribe, as Kassites, and that the ash part of his name may be related to forges, fire, and the mountain-god Tengranism. Prior to Kassites, they would be in Tibet-India, and with a Hyperborean domain, or people from the North, or Asian. So as I stated, I would attempt to consider this word "ash" in my study.

we'll get to this but I want to note that King Minos (Minoans/Crete) inherited a dog created by Zeus named Laelops. Thus Minoans can be a wolf-dog tribe, or tamga.


I also think that the Norse mythical cow "Audumia" can be associated to the Greek version as "Amalthea". I suggest both have roots of India, perhaps Egypt, either as "lands of fire" in the Norse creation pantheon. And that likely part of the Northern "Battle Axe" culture peoples whom may be the precursor tribe/s for these myth origins.

To get a better appreciation for the word "ash", I need to introduce the "phoenix", a multi-geographical deified entity which has several "hybrid" mythical animistic forms, with a bird as the most common element.


I will quickly as possible point out details in their text as to fit within my concept relative to Kassites, and the "ash" word.

In Egypt, their god named "Ash" was of the first dynasty, and in hierolyphs is shown as a bird, or an animal they refer to as "unidentified - Set - animal", which appears as a wolf/dog/jackel to me.

Ash predates Set, and appears to be within their earliest dynasties, and, as a god of Libu (Libyan) people. To expand on Libu. I'll attach another page, because of the Berber-Iberian-Saami DNA connections.


To help define the word ash, I'll add some "phoenix" descriptions. One question is; is this related to the Egyptian god name "Ash". For Kassites we can deal with a phoenix-ash type construct, that I believe will allow some Battle Axe Culture elements as common.


This phoenix goddess bird is in many mythologies. Includes: Arabian, Persians, Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, Chinese, Indians, and Phoenicians given.

A phoenix "is" a sacred fire-bird by definition. It has an estimated life cycle of between 500-1000 years. near the end, builds a nest, that then ignites, and both bird and nest burn fiercely, and are reduced to ashes, from which a new-young phoenix, or a phoenix egg made of myrrh... It flies to Heliopolis Egypt to deposit the ashes, as the theme goes. The bird also has many depictions as a dog-wolf head, with lion, or bear claws. Many versions, a giant in size. Because this is a messenger Earth god, animism allows for variants as to the actual animals used. To me, dog-wolf head would be consistent with my tribe as of wolf tamga, but not necessarily the only tribe/s which could have similar tamga, or even borrowed this one. I need many factors to sort down an ancient tribe as I'm attempting to do.

Herein the ashes represents immortality, or new birth from the ashes of the old.

I will cherry-pick this text for our concerns above.

Assyrians had a nest of "oak" (neighbors to Kassites in Babylon), or, on top of a palm tree (recall the Buri palm previously mentioned herein).

In India, their bird called Garuda - a bird of the mount of Hindu god Vishnu.

Of particular interest is the Finnic version called Kokko. Their folklore bird of iron, and fire. The forge blacksmith is obvious here, in my opinion. They reference a Biblical bird to the book of Job 29:18. Herein, a bird, the word named as Chol-as. I would entertain this leads to Cholchus, and therin Kokko. That is to say, the Boreads that built Jason's Argo vessel. Three interpretations of this Biblical word is given as; phoenix, palm tree, or sand.

Greeks had a peacock or Eagle. both are of India, in my opinion. Colors purple/red, or crimson (Phoenicia), or a palm tree.

Persians as "Simurgh", with head of a dog, claws of a lion.

Chinese - Businiao - immortal bird.

Japan - Fushicho - immortal bird.

Korea - Bulgajo - immortal bird.

Hebrew - Ziz - legendary "pure" bird.

Magyars - Tural -(myths).

Philippines - Adama.

In Slavic folklore, they have the "firebird", as a magical glowing bird, from a far-away land. Brings blessings and doom to its captor.

To expand on the bird called Simurgh, I'll attach a link for an overview.


This is a lot to describe. I'll note key words in the text to watch for, as related to Kassites and blacksmiths, an d colors. Hebrew "Ziz", note locational data, Iranian art , head of a dog, the flame-death-ash scenario, "copper color" (Kassite chariots are of copper), "dog-bird", Phoenix-ashes correlation, Union Earth-Sky, Tree of Life, Located as symbol on head or shoulders of would-be kings, words and names as Prince Zal, son of Saam (perhaps can lead to the Saami peoples in the North) and their story on Mt. Alborz. Herein we captivate what is likely a Kassite related mountain. Simurgh lived on this peak.

I Azeri folklore, Zumrud (bird) is represented as an emerald. Strange if Azer-Baijan yields Azer as fire. Emeralds are green.

I think I can make the parallel to the geography, and the name Burna Buriash II in Babylon, and include a phoenix type bird into their pantheon, and that they are also blacksmiths such that the ash in his name exemplifies this factor, but that even if it doesn't, they carry this bird in their pantheon anyway, and its ancestors are of India, and of Hindu Kush regions. I think a Sassinid connection is proper to a Buryan, Burjan, Borean. I also think the names in Norse myths will thus align of these same ancestors, and their myth names as Buri, Bor, Odin, Thor, and Kokko, can be derived from this type of ancestor.

I would suggest that it was the Battle Axe culture when the Northern Tree of Life as we know it took on its form. If Kokko is the Finnic version, and related to iron and fire, then this points to the Iron Age, but wherein, the ancestors were likely Bronze Age, and could have very ancient roots in the Copper Age, in both Egypt and India.

I believe this bird allows a new perspective. Did Basque have such a bird? This is my next step. See if this is workable for everybody. I see Minoans intimately tied to this as well. I should note the bird on the Minoan ring image Puzzler attached. I think the bird represents this Phoenix. Also note that in light of Oak references above, the Northern tree "is" called "Ash". So then praytell, why would a tree be named "Ash"? And, can these Ash folks be earlier Oak folks, if your new territory doesn't have Oaks, i.e., in Hyperborean regions, Bjarmaland, Norway?

See if this helps definitions, GGG guy.

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GGG guy

I decided to aid the definition of Hurrian as from Bhurrian. This spectulation may show its roots from the fire and forge peoples, and would be in line with the linguistics of Hurrians and Subarians. Here, some suggest they may have the same or similar languages, of which, very little exist to record for either case. In light of this deficiency, other factors can perhaps allow for a version of this thinking. I would suggest that this could thereafter become the Kassites, and where Kas can be derived from mountain, as hopefully demonstrated in the attachments. This wiki link is on the topic of "hell". or fire, red, forges, phoenix...etc. For this part, go to the section called Hinduism. Herein we find the definitions for what I'll loosely term a Hindu-type trinity. They show "bhur" to mean; "the Earth", "svar" to mean; "the sky", and "bhuvas" to mean; "the middle area, air, atmosphere".


If Buryan/Burjan tribe means "Sky God", "mountain as in Berg, Burg, and if a Burjan tribe has a god named Suvar, then I see all of this as entirely consistant, a suggests it has roots in Siberian shamanism, that went to Tibet, and became Hindu, prior to Kassites, and Kas, to mean Kush, as in the Hindu Kush mountains. See what you may think on these factors. I should also point out the Slavic Svarog deity, also consistent within this Hindu type pantheon.

If we follow this Hindu thinking, I also made the claim about the Norse cow Audumia, and its source as Hindu. You may recall I've suggested that in this myth,this cow from "the lands of fire" is likely India, and their sacred mother Earth cow, or Egypts, Hathor, as similar, and where either could be considered as "the Lands of Fire".

I want to suggest a third possibility for the location of these lands. You may also recall I stated that "any" smoking mountain (like a volcanic active one) could qualify under the guise of "lands of fire", in my opinion. To compromise between India and Egypt, then we can look more closely at Lycia, which we can recall Puzzler pointed out the myth where Achilles followed the wolf into this region. In Lycia, there "is" an "eternal flame" as the volcanic vents here allow flammable gases to escape through volcanic vents within this region. Here is a wiki page and a picture of these particular flames, still burning today.


If the Norse myths and Battle Axe culture are related, then Lycia can tie into the Babylon aftermath timeline, and its Zeus myths. Carians are these peoples in my opinion. I would suggest this may the the connections for the Northern myths, but that the origins would likely be of India, then Kassites, then Lycia. I would say they are likely Mycenaean of the era, and Battle Axe people too, but an earlier Minoan connection as probable, in my opinion. In the first paragraph of this text, note the name Burdur, and its location. This should fit the Minoan timeline, and even earlier perhaps. Fire temples are known throughout Iran, Iraq, and even in Georgia. I don't have an issue in these earlier regions with a fire concept, and Apollo temples also always had this eternal flame.

It also interesting to note that the phoenix bird only has off-spring once in its life-cycle of 500 years, or so. The Buri palm actually exhibits this characteristic, as the text I previously attached stated clearly that this particular palm blooms "once" at the end of its life-cycle, then dies. So the descriptions as to how often this actually occurs is many years, minimum. Some trees are in excess of thousands of years old as suggested in some of this phoenix type bird myths. I think that a Buri palm has yet more to tell us, if, we understand how to decipher these types of meanings.

Some more on Basque myths.


See if this may ring some bells, GGG guy. As an after thought, the word in Greek as "hind" to mean a Siberian reindeer, where a female exhibits antlers, is charaterized as an Artemis symbol, and is Apollo's sister. Zeus's twins, all of the Hyperboreans. I could be that the word "Hindu" could be of a Siberian reindeer, or "hind", of Tibetan highlands. Pure speculation, but I will see if this shows merit, if possible. Comments welcome.

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The Puzzler

Great posts GGG, you have done some very deep work. More than I could ever contribute much to.

The bird on the tree of life in Minoan pics, yes, could be phoenix and the buri.

hind, interesting, hindu, maybe...

How about Ethiopia as between Egypt and India, I have just contributed some posts to the Ethiopia thread, they do have the Rift Valley...cvolcanoes, earthquakes, possibility of major upheaval, mythical characters of antiquity, Dionysus, Memnon, all Ethiopian, Aethiopia, Andromeda etc, I would bet it was involved, the sacred text website article even goes as far to suggest they colonised India, Cushites from Cush, Ethiopia.

I have not spent enough time here as I should or would have liked but please continue to post GGG, I enjoy your posts very much.

ash might be relative to the God Ash (of the Oasis) through the meaning of parched, dry...? God of vineyards should somehow connect him to Dionysus (possibly).

(1) dictionary.gif "powdery remains of fire," O.E. æsce "ash," from P.Gmc. *askon (cf. O.N., Swed. aska, O.H.G. asca, Ger. asche, Goth. azgo "ashes"), from PIE root *as- "to burn, glow" (cf. Skt. asah "ashes, dust," Armenian azazem "I dry up," Gk. azein "to dry up, parch," L. ardus "parched, dry"). Spanish and Port. ascua "red-hot coal" are Germanic loan-words. Symbol of grief or repentance; hence Ash Wednesday (c.1300), from custom introduced by Pope Gregory the Great of sprinkling ashes on the heads of penitents on the first day of Lent. Ashes meaning "mortal remains of a person" is late 13c., in reference to the ancient custom of cremation. ash (2) dictionary.gif type of tree, O.E. æsc "ash tree," also "spear made of ash wood," from P.Gmc. *askaz, askiz (cf. O.N. askr, O.S. ask, M.Du. esce, Ger. Esche), from PIE root *os- "ash tree" (cf. Arm. haci "ash tree," Alb. ah "beech," Gk. oxya "beech," L. ornus "wild mountain ash," Rus. jasen, Lith. uosis "ash"). Ash was the preferred wood for spear-shafts, so O.E. æsc sometimes meant "spear" (cf. æsc-here "company armed with spears").


Actually Ash the God is very interesting, I don't know if many would know of him...

Ash was the ancient Egyptian god of oases,[1] as well as the Vineyards of the western Nile Delta[1] and thus was viewed as a benign deity. Flinders-Petrie in his 1923 expedition to the Saqqara (also spelt Sakkara) found several references to Ash in Old Kingdom wine jar seals: I am refreshed by this Ash was a common inscription.

In particular, he was identified by the Ancient Egyptians as the god of the Libu and Tinhu tribes,[1] known as the people of the oasis. Consequently Ash was known as the lord of Libya, the western border areas occupied by the Libu and Tinhu tribes,[2] corresponds roughly with the area of modern Libya. It is also possible that he was worshiped in Ombos, as their original chief deity.[1]

In Egyptian mythology, as god of the oases, Ash was associated with Set, who was originally god of the desert, and was seen as protector of the Sahara. The first known reference to Ash dates to the Protodynastic Period, but by the late 2nd Dynasty, his importance had grown, and he was seen as protector of the royal estates, since the related god Set, in Lower Egypt, was regarded as the patron deity of royalty itself. Ash's importance was such that he was mentioned even until the 26th Dynasty.

Ash was usually depicted as a human,[1] whose head was one of the desert creatures, variously being shown as a lion, vulture, hawk,[1] snake, or the unidentified Set-animal.[3] Indeed, depictions of Ash are the earliest known depictions[citation needed], in ancient Egyptian art, to show a deity as a human with the head of an animal.

Some depictions of Ash show him as having multiple heads, unlike other Egyptian deities, although some compound depictions were occasionally shown connecting gods to Min. In an article in the journal Ancient Egypt (in 1923), and again in an appendix to her book, The Splendor that was Egypt, Margaret Murray expands on such depictions, and draws a parallel to a Scythian deity, who is referenced in Sebastian Münster's Cosmographia universalis.

The idea of Ash as an import God is contested, as he was the God of Ombos long before Set's introduction sometime in the 2nd Dynasty. One of his titles is "Nebuty" or "He of Nebut" indicating this position.[1]

Ash is sometimes seen as another name for Set—similarly as one might give the name Ta-Bitjet for Serket, Dunanwy for Anti, or Sefkhet-Abwy for Sheshat.


I think that some of the archaeology in the Vinca culture areas show they burned their houses after a certain amount of years, unexplainably, maybe they too, saw the burning and rising from the ashes, new life, a continuing part of their life cycles too. Will think some more on it all.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

From the Oera Linda Book, which I follow in another thread...

The Hindoos are timid and submissive before their princes, like hinds before wolves. Therefore the Yren and others have called them Hindoos, which means hinds.


Edited by The Puzzler

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GGG guy

Thanks for the Hindu translation source information. I suspect there is a few differing translations, and meanings for this Hindu Kush mountain name origin. I think that we can set this aside for the time being, and I want to add into the Hindu cow creation theme, and perhaps a more specific folkloric version as to whether or not this could then be related to the Norse cow pantheon. To aid my descriptions, I also want to back reference the yDNA paper I attached by Klyosov, wherein; the claim that R1a1 haplogroup is connected to Southern India, specific as Chenchu tribe/s, and that this would coincide with the concept called "the Aryan Invasion" into India, and the generally accepted time line. This I also claim is of Northern Tibetan Hyperboreans, that also went south during this period, thus preserved their god Kubera in both locations, where; North is an earlier Indus Valley civilization/s, that thereafter intermingled into the Dravidian cultures in the South. This implies a Hindu-Dravidian connection demonstrated by this Kubera god, under their primary deity Shiva. A derivative of their cow goddess then went North into Baltic arena, if, I have my data correctly aligned, and the proper tribal traces. This is to allow a Norse Buri(man) myth by way of their cow, Audumia.

An India cow, as a deified version is called Kamadhenu. I'll attach an overview of some of their regional folkloric testimony.


Now to zero in on my cow and legend of interest, I'll add a location called "Borra Caves", and to note that their definition for Borra, is "something that has bored into the ground", a definition Puzzler had previously mentioned relative to to North Pole axis, and zodiac, wherein the constellations rotate around to pole, as to go-around, as a drill would to bore holes into the ground. In this zodiac, the Norse Buri would align with Draco (wolf/dragon), as opposed to Ursa Major (bear), both of which rotate at the pole. In the Norse myth sense, recall it is Fenrir "tied" to the North Pole, and I claim them also to be Hyperboreans, and also Buryans, or Burjans.


Now their is my personal debate about motherearth cow goddesses, and an equal for the Egyptian cow goddess Hathor. For my Norse choice, I lean to India. The region of Borra Caves in Andra Pradesh, if this is actually related to the Boreans. However, R1a yDNA can also support this regional area. This timelines roughly to what I would anticipate, and even to the Kassites of Babylon around 1750 BC.

To allow some more rationale about cows and aurochs I'll attach a couple of basic info links.



It may be that Zebu leads to Zebulun in Lebanon, and their Kebera Cave at Mt. Carmel. If so, one could perceive cow/bull in the locational name in Biblical times. Their territory I think changed as I have differing maps in this Lebanon region. Likely won or lost territory in historical war events.

If we wanted to compare some notes about cow DNA and cow species in India, Egypt, and Europe, then we can review this web link on this topic, which is quite interesting, if we examine cows as a species.


I also want to add that India also has a Banyan tree (sacred). Seems right close to the tribe name Buryan, but, this is also pure speculation on my behalf, even though I see subtleties in many of these word spelling variants.


I want to add this now, and I'll add in a second part, but I lost my add-in a day back, so I'll shorten this a bit, GGG guy.

PS, this is to obtain Iberian/Basque roots, if workable, and/or a Northern peoples, especially difficult at 3-5,000 BC. Minoans may help in this analysis, so I'm attempting to tidy up a connection on Crete, too, because it fetches such early dates, with ruins as well.

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GGG guy

A while back in this blog, the question for the word labryth (double-axe) up on the etymology question. I see a Buryan-blacksmith in this word, however, as a Carian-Zeus Anatolian people, I claim to be Hyperboreans, there is an ancient city called Labraunda. Here's a link.



The descriptive myths show clearly that a mythical golden double-axe is laced into this region at the dates given. I should also note that golden double-axes were dug up on Minoan Crete. They appear ceremonial to me. Such an axe could have indeed been real, because Lydia was known for gold (ref King Midas), so they could have very well transferred such a deified relic into Carian regions, to their south, in Anatolia. Maybe this will help definitions.

In Caria, I also mentioned Burdur, but left out the name of the city here called Kibyra. I'll attach a link for this location. I see root in the India god Kubera for this city name. I also see a Buryan tribe name in this.


Now on the comments concerning Vinca Culture and Macedonia regions as their earliest, it appears to align to Klyosov's yDNA at similar dates. Clearly I can place Hyperboreans here, but if I consider the Thracian ancient metal works in archaeology, of which I do have an association to a Burjan tribe on Lemnos Island (of Iron Age dates - I think), but none-the-less, text suggested they liked Thracian women, suggesting inter-marriages between these two haplogroups. Note that Klyosov hade some difficulty with the Macedonian R1a at his projected dates. I believe that it was the Amazon's also on Lemnos Island, that the Burjan tribe avoided. This would thus split paths for a mtDNA vs. yDNA regional distributions, if the two are compared to each other. Because of my blacksmith pedigree, and some text, I think I can make the argument to connect to this very ancient Vinca Culture copper smithing. This is my intuitive thought on this culture, but I will attempt to assimilate this culture more if I can. My part could incorporate them into a Battle Axe Culture that went North at a Later date, which I suspect connects to Norse creation myth pantheon. Could be a stepping stone to Iberian Spain, but I see this perhaps more as a Druid, where Iberian Spain I think is more a Sea Peoples in the Mediterranean, even at similar dates perhaps. I believe that Santorini blew up, and thus, all things became this next event time line thereafter, once the globe resettled.

To aid on Hyperborean definitions, I'll attach what I think is a little bit newer version in Wiki.


I would suggest that the Tarim Mummies in Central Asia are also tall people, not 9ft, but I recall around 7ft tall, and they fetch a date of ~1850BC, and, also suggests some of them are of European race/s, and thus one of the only archaeology sites suggesting an East to West, or West to East migration pathway from this period. A Hyperborean can be in this location.

For Egypt, the Cave Dwellers called the Trogoldytica are said to be Hyperborean, but in light of the Mt. Zaborah location in Lower Egypt, I've read they were also in Upper Egypt between the Blue and Whitr Nile tributaries, and also as cave dwellers here. This Upper Egypt could in theory be related to the deity called Ash, referenced previously herein. Sketchy, but a data point.


Herein, my question would be, can Hator be connected to India's creation cow/s, and any specific tribal name/s.

I also want to add a page for creation aspects of man being made from clay, or dirt. In this way, a Burigod could actually translate as "clay-dirt". Sounds like Fir Bolg Picts to me, who carried bags of dirt. Strangly enough, perhaps this may allow a certain perspective. All factors seem to point to this as perhaps the better definition for the word/s Buri, Borra, Burg...etc. Actually seems reasonable even for cave men to have a simplified context in root. Thereafter, it evolves with more and more layers twixt into the original scope of spirituality of our ancient ancestors.


My previous understanding was that this clay thing was a Hyperborean concept, but it appears from this attachment, that there is quite a few regions and dates for this concept. I should note that in the Chenchu tribe of Southern India (R1a), that their myth (one-version) has man of clay-tree, as a creation theme. Adds insight into trees with copy-cat names, such as Buri palms, perhaps Banyan trees, and a Tree in Caria I haven't looked at yet called a "Plane Tree".

Be back soon, but feel I should support my concepts with some hard data. Tracing a tribe can be pretty complex, and I hope I can reduce this into a simpler context - for review - but I don't exactly have the whole enchilada, but feel close to a summary type assimilation, on this type of tribe. I also think I can perhaps place a Hyperborean into any of the locations described by ancient historians, as to where Borea may have actually existed. Otherwise, they're just a myth.

See if these factors are workable or not, or, if any additional comments, pro or con, are warranted. Again, I'm aiming at Spain's Iberians, and whether or not they could be proto-Basque tribal affiliates, if not Basques themselves. I do see associations in their myths, which makes me less inclinded to isolate them as suggested herein, and in some reading, most of which is vague on tribal names, and locations, if not for dates, too. You only have whats known to work with to expand the envelope. I'm also attempting to nail down the Nordic Buri in hopes this may open some new corridors to assimilate a better understanding of Northern peoples, and perhaps where they originate from, that is to say, their culture. I think I'm making headway.

Comments welcome, GGG guy. Its a bit-by-bit process.

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GGG guy

I've decided to include some more information on the Vinca culture, and the Norse myths, and the possibility as of common ancestors. This should be within R1a yDNA haplogroup, if my tribal approximations are reasonable in their content, and source origin I'll state as Siberian-Tibetan. If I round off the date for Vinca - copper and gold smelting to ~5000 BC, there is also a diffusion question suggesting that metallurgy left this region, due to IE influxes of people, ~3,000 BC, where this caused the final demise of their early West European civilization. The are aspects which can suggest diffusion in all directions, which I'll attempt to bracket-in to my tribal research, then suggest how a Vinca culture may be related. Also as part of the Battle Axe culture, around Scancinavia, and to include Belgium, and Ireland, and Iberian Spain. This will be tied to metals, mainly copper, but additional other common attributes, I may have to equally align to the concepts I believe are related to my key tribal study.

I want to clarify the Nordic Buri-god to mean, a person shaped rocky construct, wherein, the Cow Audumia (Adumbla) essentially animates Buri, but as a god, not a mortal, or man, as to parallel a Biblical "Adam and Eve", this would be Ask (Ash- man), and Embla (Elm - woman), in Norse myth, and both are names of trees. They are brother and sister (twins). Also given is sol-sun goddess, and mani, her brother, is the moon. I'm not certain if they are the same twins or not. Here's the outline for the pantheon allowing these names.


For the Vinca culture, I'll attach a web link called "Old Europe" by Philip Coppens. His outline is a review of the culture and provides date specific locations and definitions.


For my concept, the following are points of interest he mentions. The Vinca culture has similarities to both Sumerian, and Isle of Crete runic characters, that he claims essentially matches Minoan linear A script, of which, hasn't been deciphered, yet. It appears as a language of words as symbols, but not of sentences, or stories. Script is only found in brief numbers of characters in length, so there isn't long strings to support a story, or even a sentence as such. However, Minoans and Vinca culture has this language affinity. The dates for Vinca allow a Sumerian 1st dynasty time line, or a proto-Sumerian connection before Eridu and the Ubaid culture. My blacksmiths are the 2nd dynasty - I claim - at Bad Tibira, translations which suggest "copper". This represents an Asia Minor, or Eastward diffusion from the Vinca progenitor, if we think early metallurgy. In the early Vinca smelter site at Rudna Glava, copper chisel, two-headed hammer, and an axe were found (I think a double-axe type), because this double-bladed axe is in Vinca motifs, and Minoan, and the Battle Axe culture. Crete could represent a Minoan-Iberian Spain avenue as Sea Peoples in Spain. This author would also suggest a tie to the Cycladic culture and Crete, ~3200 BC. He mentions Vinca artifacts in SE France, or as Old Europe types of artifacts. I see this as Westward diffusion, not necessarily by sea, or land, but I see a Danube route by water, and would lean to a Druid connection, if my study tribe is part of the Vinca Culture, at these sorts of dates. He suggest megalith connections as possible.

I'll attach a map of Western Europe Copper Age, and associated locations, dates, and names. This link defines the difference between finding smelters, as opposed to digging up metal objects, which can be carried to a location, not necessarily made there, nor made by the people living there. Smelters are quite rare in West-Europe, and the ones known have later dates, which supports a diffusion from a Central, or quasi-Central source origin, that then spread the knowledge for the blacksmith craft into other regions, but, where some other cultures modified, or improved the process/es. As claimed in the next attachment, there isn't a simple explanation to cover the scope of archaeological locations and timeline, but indications for a "centralized" source, non-the-less.


This link has a good map. They use a term called Beaker Metallurgy. I will note that their map of Western Europe fits the data points I've previously given. Of interest to me is the name Amesbury, which I recall is Avebury in England, Zambujal (3rd millenium BC) Spain-Portugal (similar to the mountain name Evora ring stone name I previously attached herein ~5000BC). They mention Pakistan.

Copper axes and ornaments were dug up in Switzerland dated 2nd half 5th millennium BC.

I see their N. France metals at Vignely 3517-3357 BC as my possible Druidic factor, but could be the Swiss, or even an Iberian source root diffusion path, but the Danube would support a whole bunch of other factors, if included, would isolate the Iberians to the South, perhaps be a Basque part, but I see two separate paths, allowing for an Iberian-Ligurian language factor, which I contend would be a likely Minoan and Sea Peoples in Southern Spain, and the Ebro (Ebur) River in Central Spain. I would connect Portugal to this thinking. Copper is also tied to a megalith tomb in Germany. This suggest metal folks also built megaliths.

If we look at smelters, than there is only a few noted at; SW France, NW Wales, SW Ireland. The is reference to the "Amesbury Archer" (Avebury henge Cornwall) and possible connection to Swiss Alps. Acher arrowheads were also dug up at Stonehenge.

I believe my data I've already given fits these locations, and in some cases, their names.

This is my 1st order evaluation of the Vinca metallurgy, the time line, and the looming question, are they connected to India, a Buri tribe in Romanian regions, and a possible source for the Norse Buri god mythology? Not sure of the answer, but I see a lot of common parts within the tribe I'm attempting to trace historically. Starts from the date American Indians crossed the Bering Sea land bridge. Should be of the same shamanist nature, if I'm correct.

These papers will help us weight the impact of metals on cultures, which in Old Europe, didn't have all the gloss, as suggested in sword such as Excalibur. Metals in Western Europe tend to trail in dates for all cases, when compared to Vinca culture dates of East Europe, suggesting a diffusion from this earlier source. I'm in agreement with this, and I'm not certain if a Buryan-Burjan tribe can be at this laocation, even if a haplogroup as R1a invites this strongly. I may be able to build into this yet, but I see this as regionally compliant within my current context of research. as a 1st order approximation. Thanks for the tip on this culture's name.

Can anyone agree that I'm likely correct on the "blacksmith" occupation for my study tribe. This is very fundamental for my key tribe, but not to suggest it to be the "only" tribe. Can anyone add another tribal names in lieu of a culture name, or, is there another tribe name to "target". I contend that some of this can be targeted, and if you find what you outline and seek, then this suggest a "truthful" outcome. I think I'm going to have to explain why my tribe isn't of Vinca culture, thats how strong the ties appear to me to be. Very untenable dates to work within, at best.

Right now, I feel real good about the Minoan part which allows a Sea People, and a possible Iberian-Spain part, of which may be the mining prospectors that were the reasons some of these locals were started, i.e., in search of ores. See if these papers help on this miner-metallurgy factor or scenario.

I believe it will take other types of forensics to shed more light on Vinca culture, and migrations out of East Europe, and truely as "Old Europe". GGG guy.

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The Puzzler

Brother and sister trees and the birth of Apollo, he has a twin sister Artemis remind me of the Ask/ash(man) and Embla/elm (woman). Leto gave birth hanging over a tree and it took 9 days. I found a comparison with Odin hanging in the tree for 9 days. Apollo's love Daphne also turned into a tree. I'm also feeling the etymology of Embla as relative to emblem which originally meant 'to lay in'/an 'insertion'.




I also found this interesting picture, note the bird on top of the World Tree, compare to Minoan labrys I showed with bird on top.



Edited by The Puzzler

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GGG guy

If I was to interpret "embla", I would suggest ember. Embers from forges leads to ashes, thus one has a unity of the upper world tree, as fire or lightning, and the tree roots as ashes, or the underworld. Us mortals live between these two domains on Earth, one of the 9-worlds. From ember, one can obtain amber, the Northern stone that represents the sun, or fire. So the original name for amber would be indicative of its color. In this thinking, I believe the Northern bird is described as "rust colored" feathers. If we had a forge, and ashes, I would suggest the color as "copper color" because I believe they are blacksmiths of the Battle Axe culture, so this should still work within color definitions, but also allow for their occupation. Note one interpretation for Yggdrasil uses the word "heat". I suggest this translation is likely the closest, of the ones given. (Ref Henry Adams Bellows in the Yggdrasil attachment above). The Eagle should be same as Phoenix, except, where one deposits the ashes may take as second part, or, they too used Egypt's Sun Temple, after the phoenix type bird dies. Hyperborean gifts sent to Greece wrapped in straw, and a ring (note Olympic Rings), may have been sacred ashes for deposit in a Greek type Sun Temple perhaps. Amber is in Egyptian tombs, so they aren't isolated people, depending on date.

I believe Hyperboreans are relative to a Laurel tree, as the type for the Olympic Crown, which I believe later was replaced with the Latin "Olive Tree". Tree choice seems reasonable to that type/s which are regionally available. Zeus is equated with Oak as well, a Hyperborean god. Whats important is a Green-Tree, of any type, where the taller, stronger, and biggest would be the choice for types. Any living at high altitudes seems a good candidate. So long that its within the intent to satisfy the long held traditions of their mythical beliefs, however they were acquired. There is some common concepts shared in phoenix birds, and Tree of Life pantheons worldwide, and some upgrades to the concepts, let say amendments along the way, seen as improvements, such as Hellenization in Macedonia, events that caught-on, then propagated everywhere through the priesthood missionary, your technical spiritual advisers.

I have an Egyptian burial image of a hanging headless creature, on a staff one could infer is a tree of life. I also have another image of Egypt's creation hieroglyphs, where the sun is rising over an earthen circular mound, similar to ring stones, and henges with their circular trenches and mounds.



I should also note the the shaman-type descriptions for the Norse Tree of Life I believe is consistent to my current knowledge on their other gods including Thor's 12-star symbol. They used the word Siberian, and this would fit within my tribal study, I claim originates in Siberia, as Buryan, or Buryats. However, I don't think this will answer all, because you can't leave out their Tibetan, and Hindu parts, I claim is likely Kassites, Iberians, and Hyperboreans, so that these events are at an earlier domain such as Copper Age, that then carried these - I'll say - similar customs to Baltic regions, where I see a couple of periods, and possible routes, wherein, the mythical concepts bear witness to their respective evolutions, within the Norse pantheon, and one would allow temporal variances as "fact-of-life" for different geological locations, but yet, the common underlying principals retained and preserved for the characters and functions, and symbols involved, if we understand their thinking (culture), when written, or inscribed, built, or assembled. There is also a concept for the nine-sacred-stones (types)in Israel pantheon, and others I don't recall, but India and Egypt may have this number of 9-stone types.

Note that in the case for Georgia, their bird is "emerald" green in color. One should note that emeralds of ancient times are from Egypt, and possibly Austria, and no other earlier emerald mines are known. The Egypt location is next to their port Berenice in the mountains called Sikait-Zabara . I haven't worked out Austria yet, however I have chipped down a myth to help discern this green-phoenix. Unique, as all the other phoenix type birds are fire related colors seems to me.


The Chaldean (Chaldia in the Pontus, and of Babylon 11th dynasty rulers, Ur) believed the stone contained a goddess (~8-6th cent BC). Biblical Abraham is of Ur of the Chaldeans (Ur Kasdim). In Chaldia-Pontus regions they are connected to the the early metal-ironsmiths here, I think may also be the Hatti, not to be confused with the Hitites.


I think this emerald green represents green life, so a green-bird would be an equal as they live on the Tree-of-Life, as would be the case for the phoenix type symbolic position in the pantheon, and the tree would also exist on the top of an Earth mountain if one extends the concept, as in the case for Mt. Alborz. The Abraham-Chaldean connection is also interesting, but I want to stay focused in the blog herein. After all, I claim Iberians in the Caucasus is the same as Siberian Buryans, and in Iberian Spain.

I have yet some additional information on Fir Bolg I'll attach soon. They did carry bags of dirt. Emerald dirt, Ruby dirt, and likely Diamond dirt, along with some gold dirt. Dirt is dirt, aye?

See if Embla could be of Ember and Amber. Should be copper-smith folks by way of this Norse birds color. I didn't see this as one of the optional choices given fro the translations. Whats wrong with this picture? GGG guy.

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The Puzzler

I thought of amber but thats a late word coming from French and probably not connected.

ember... A possible etymology is this imo, if not from emblem or ember root.

According to Benjamin Thorpe "Grimm says the word embla, emla, signifies a busy woman, from amr, ambr, aml, ambl, assiduous labour; the same relation as Meshia and Meshiane, the ancient Persian names of the first man and woman, who were also formed from trees.

If the word is from ember, it is possibly 2 smaller words - aem/bla - bla can mean like wind, blow. Because I'm looking for a Nordic etymology first.

Ember Origin:

before 1000; Middle English eemer, emeri, Old English ǣmerge, ǣmyrie (cognate with Old Norse eimyrja, Old High German eimuria ), equivalent to ǣm- (cognate with Old Norse eimr steam) + -erge, -yrie, akin to Old English ys ( e ) le ember, Latin ūrere to burn

When I read the Mashya and Mashyana comparison:

The names are from Avestan, nominally transliterated as mašyā and mašyānē, but like other Avestan words also, spellings (and hence transliterations) vary from manuscript to manuscript. Mašyā may thus also appear as maṣ̌iiā or maš́iiā or mašiiāi (and variants).

Originally and etymologically, Mašyā means "mortal being" as Old Persian martya, Persian mard and even Sanskrit martya also mean "mortal" and therefore "man". The root in Avesta and Sanskrit for death is mar/mr, "to die". The causative mâr means "to kill". Its derivatives merethyu/mrtyu means "death"; mareta and maretan means "mortal", and then "man, human being" mashya. See also how Avestan variation between aša and arta does.

Death meant you were mortal, a man - if Ash was the man, them Embla could signify aem/bla=to burn with the wind. The death of the tree, which made it living, mortal. You need air to make fire, the wind is a principle element in fire, so that's why I also think a combination of aem (burn) bla (blow/wind) could work.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Big Bad Voodoo

Puzzler little offtopic but since I see that you are swiming very well around languages one question.

What do you think about Sir William Jones and his theory that Greek,Latin,Sanskirt,Germanic and Celt language originate from one language?

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The Puzzler

Puzzler little offtopic but since I see that you are swiming very well around languages one question.

What do you think about Sir William Jones and his theory that Greek,Latin,Sanskirt,Germanic and Celt language originate from one language?

It's certainly possible if we take notice of what the Oera Linda Book says, the other thread I have been in for years and it sounds plausible imo. A type of Proto-Indo European would be the language.

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GGG guy

The translation/s for Embla is quite interesting. On the other hand, its twisted enough to expect something else to support or corroborate this solution, which I'm working on. If I was to include air/wind as suggested, then a blacksmith uses "bellows", especially to get high enough temperatures to melt metals out of dirt. On hand, I think the other reference from your attachment I commented on still retains an Embla and the word "heat" which I think implies a warm human mortal body vs. the cold (dead) mortal body, which was granted this "Breath of life", herein can be air/wind, and thus allow both a cold mortal man, and the word Ask (Ash) as the fire (death) ash part to hold, yet be encompassed into a Tree of Life pantheon as well. The fact that the Persians had man/woman to be created from trees is a very strong relationship, in my opinion. This corroborates your translation to a degree, and would support a regional relationship in theory, if true.

If I took your "emblem" word, I could think "embellish", and then maybe bellows, i.e. of the type used in a smelter forge. that blows air/wind. to make the fire "hot" - very hot - enough. If the Slavic "Phoenix" bird "glows", this implies "ember" as in fire embers.

Now the "emerald" stone is "green" where Ber, can also mean "green". Herein, the word Embla, could be Em-Bla, wherein, a root could be as Em (?)-Bla (Ber) as green. The word Iberia can mean Green Plains, and if I was to think Iranian mythology, this would be as al-Burjan, and perhaps related to Azer Baijan. If Scythians are horse people, then green plains have this deeper meaning associated to feeding horses, or, farm type animals, i.e. the expression, "greener pastures".

Because there is supposed to be a goddess in the definition for the emerald, I have been pusseing this possible link as a possible root source for the Embla, Norse 1st woman-mortal-animated from a tree. I haven't found this goddess yet, said to be associated with emeralds (which history strongly suggest as of Egyptian-Ethiopian ores at these very early dates, including their Mt. Zebara).

I want to attach a link for Mt. Alborz in Iran, and the myth concerning their blacksmith legend.


In this myth, there is the foe called Zahhak, where today there are ruins of the Zahhak Castle in Azerbaijan. Here's a link.


Note they are "archers". Here is the other mountain link.


Because some reading suggest Karelians in North regions have a Sassinid affinity, I think they are also of Kar by Armenia, who I think may be the Carians (Karians), in Anatolia as the Hyperboreans, and Zeus, whom the Iberians may have called Ceus, and that could be the smith's Chaldia in the Pontus, and Chaldeans, another name for Sumer peoples as opposed to Akkadians (Babylon Assyrians) as neighbors, but where Sumer would be at Suvar or Samar, or Shinar in the Bible, or the sea side delta people. This would differentiate the Fertile Crescent Sumerians as a Indus Valley peoples, who can be Scythian Caucasus Iberians, and not neccessarily as Arabic Persians. However, given enough time, I think there is cross enthic mixing likely. Certainly languages were exchanged to some degree.

I found a very good link for the ancient Indus Valley in a movie format, on lacation, and some of the "experts" are included in the archaeology. It has real good date line data, and very good under watar ruin data con-current to on-going studies. They state clearly the dates involved in the current concept/s being explored. They cover my god Kubera of India locations quite well in this video, and its - in my opinion - a very professional take on these ancient people/s. I think this will expand our Indus Valley vs. Fertile Crescent time line information, and you only need to listen to this link.

Because Georgia is said to have a "green" phoenix type bird, said to be related to emeralds, one could make some associations to Northern peoples, however, I'm yet working on this jewel stone.

In light of this, I had mentioned the 9-stone idea for the Norse number-9 in their myth. I think I can clarify this answer as the 9-planet stones of India called Navagraha Stones. There is also the 12-stones in Levant regions.


Note tribe of Benjamin (wolf and archers).



I would strongly suggest this mimics the Norse 9-worlds part of their myth, or corroborates the Norse pantheon suggesting a Hindu concept in orgin, which can be also Sassinids, in my opinion, but not necessarily as Persian linguistics, or as a Hindu part of their language.

Emerald is called "marakata" in Sanskrit, meaning "the green of growing things". Persian into Latin as "smaragdus" corrupted to "emerald" in English. Also "panna" in Hindi. Also a symbol for "Eternal Spring" and/or immortality". These definitions seem to fit real well to Embla's functions, and the Norse myth for water, or wells.

Also, the Norse phoenix type bird named Kokko.


It doesn't take too long to see "fire" in the city Kokkola Coat of Arms in Norway. Bonfire is the early smelting method, and difficult to detect as smelting in archaeological digs. The latter smelter eith a furnace, and perhaps bellows are needed to discern metal working, Slag deposits in the strata can suggest this, but bonfires leave little trace allowing for carbon rich dirt strata, of layer. I think Burrian's Hill in Scotland (Iron Age smelter) had slag, and quarry rock (small scale), and I don't have a date for this. I think the furnace itself was lacking, and it was in a farming zone today where some of the site was disturbed, or even scattered a bit, making the archaeology limited by these factors. I doubt anything organic was found to accurately obtain a carbon 14 date test. The hill has the correct name for my key tribe on Scotland.

I also want to expand on the Fir Bolg of Ireland, I claim as blacksmiths, where Fir Bolg means :fire rock, or fire stone. This attachment is quite a chore to read, and I only need a fraction of the research given. I think one could skim read these parts out, albeit, unless one really likes this sort of historical research a whole lot.


Patrick Lavin, as myself, is tracing his surname roots, and this leads to the Fir Bolg part of his personal history in Ireland. I will relate some of his factors that allows more detail of Fir Bolg people, and perhaps, a time line, and source origin of these folks.

Fir Bolg can be:

Baronies of Boyle and Ballintuber North in County Roscommon, Kilmore, Clooncraff, Ardcarne,

Tir Briuin na Sinna (part of Tri-Tuathas (3-counties)

Area called Slieve Bawn, ir Bolg stronghold.

Part of 2nd-3rd wave migrants as Belgae from England, (I would call Eburones of Belgium, in Yorkshire (Eboricum).

Part of 4th wave migrants of N. Iberia or S. Gaul. (Note this could be Basque people too, but I suggest Ebrones of Evora (Ebora) Portugal, or Berones in N. Spain, on the Basque map attached early in this blog).

Mentions Greece Pritenic Islands for Ireland, and Cruitin tribes, and the 600BC date.

Romans called them Picti.

The Euerni (Ptolemy as Erainn, for later words Hibernia, and/or Ireland)- as Manapii, Bolgi, Belgae (Note Bel-fire rites), and Fir Bolgs.

Fir Bolg wielded improved weapons, and traced their origins to the goddess Bolg. (I haven't this goddess yet, but have found a Buri- "rock god").

Menapii as a Belgium-Celt confederation from N. Gaul, or Belgium. (The Romans annihilated the Eburones in Belgium territories, and burnt down their cities during their Gaul war genocide type activities).

Gae Bolg, or Gayborg - Celtic - a barbed spear. Brings justice for a word like barbarian.

Fir Bolgs are also described as early gods of Ireland.

Tailtiu, foster mother of Lugh (recall the Ptolemy's Lugi-Buri tribe). and last queen of the Fir Bolg, which I rhink implies in Ireland. Lugh is the "master of many arts - skilled one". Goibniu is - "master of the forge" - "weapons maker" for Tuatha.

Fir Bolg are also related to Tara Hill where there is reference to goddess Bolg, that lost battles here and also went to Aran Isles.


It is said that Fir Bolg is responsible for bringing the new "Bronze Age" in Ireland. My data would likely support this statement.

Not simple, but this research seems very consistant for my key tribal historical trace, very neatly.

I need yet to study Embla before i can make up my mind on interpretation of her name, and functions. I thought these other factors may aid in this determination, and also the question for these Black Irish folks. If of Vinca Culture origin, then we could perhaps have a much earlier date than the Fir Bolg would support, albeit, even if they still are of the same ancestors to each other, yet.

I think this is showing its face, ever so slowly. How does one "package" my concepts? How do you relay this to others? For now, I think we are moving forward, and I hope to cover my single tribe with sufficient support data to allow plausibility for my theory on them. Thanks for the comments, and see how these factors may work into the landscape. I will yet work these factors myself as its getting quite interesting. GGG guy.

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An aside, GGG.

You said in your former post that the Irish Fir Bolg meant 'people of the sack'.

And alternative explanation is that it meant 'Belgae people'.

It's interesting to note that two neighbouring Irish tribes were called "Manapi" and "Cauci". In Belgium there was a tribe called "Menapii" and at the North Sea coast of Germany there lived a tribe called "Chauci".



The Menapians must have been closely related to the Frisians, and at a certain time they inhabited an area from Calais (France) up to Leiden (Netherlands). They spoke a language closely related to Old Frisian. They probably settled in east Ireland, and lived there as neighbours of the Cauci who may have come from coastal Germany.

The Chauci, neighbours of the Frisians and (often) close allies, had all the characteristics (according to Tacitus and others) of the OLB Fryans/Frisians. They were both known as very civilized, peacefull... and as sea raiders.

Both the Menapii and Chaucii must have been very influential tribes, the Chaucii even being dominant at sea, and both connected with Ireland


The Belgae were a group of tribes living in northern Gaul, on the west bank of the Rhine, in the 3rd century BC, and later also in Britain, and possibly even Ireland. They gave their name to the Roman province of Gallia Belgica, and very much later, to the modern country of Belgium.

The general consensus among linguists is that the ethnic name Belgae comes from the Proto-Celtic root *belg- or *bolg- meaning "to swell (particularly with anger/battle fury/etc.)", cognate with the Old English verb belgan, "to be angry" (from Proto-Germanic *balgiz), derived ultimately from the Proto-Indo-European root *bhelgh- "to swell, bulge, billow"). Thus, a Proto-Celtic eethnic name *Bolgī could be interpreted as "The People who Swell (particularly with anger/battle fury)".


Here in the Netherlands we still have a saying, "gebelgd zijn", and it means, 'to be angry/agitated'.

Maybe a connection with the Latin "bello"... the "Bello Gallico", or the Gallic War.

And if my memory serves me right, the German verb "bellen" means 'to bark'.

Edited by Abramelin

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The Puzzler

Fir Bolg = fearsome (fir to fear) noisemakers(root of all blow words inc. bellow = to bellow out, to call out, also a noise a bull makes, cows bellow.) imo.

These types are renown for yelling and hollering when going into battle.

Fir could mean 'man' as well and that relates to Latin vir= virile (a swollen noisy bull) - could also be a root in Wralda's name.

So they could be 'men of noise' as well as 'fearsome noisemakers'.

Old Irish takes fir to fer, which is man and also fear.



Don't forget bells, bulls and boulders. This is one of my favourite words to investigate etymologically.

Buller = noisy (note Swedish) - this is a boulder. (They were in rivers with water gushing over them and were noisy - bullerstone

BULL - and also boulder...



Alternative forms


From Middle English bulder, possibly from Swedish bullersten (“noisy stone”), or possibly from Dutch bolder



Middle English BULDER = Swedish BULLER = noisy (possibly from Dutch bolder/English bold) PS: If the Balda Sea was the related to this word it could mean noisy, loud, bellowing sea..just saying, may be another alternative.

Probably builder too. (Frisian bold=house)

I went looking for something in the OLB. The word NOISE. This word may be old Swedish (form of Fryan) that has not gone through to Frisian, it's not in the Frisian dictionary (or any variation of it that I could see.)

I'm not sure how exactly to read the OLB sentence here but it corresponds with this sentence...

The watchman on the tower hearing the noise, lighted his torch.

Thi utkik thêr mênde thater awet hêrde staek sin balle vp.

Bull = buhl.

Gola fon al hira ysera wêpne birâwath aend to thaet lesta lik en buhl by thêre nôse omme lêid.

Bolla is bread in Frisian, bread rises, swells up - like bulls and balls

OLB has buhl - West Frisian here is bolle - like bread - originally all meaning related 'to blow'.

Etymology 1

Middle English bul(e), from late Old English bula (only in place names), from Proto-Germanic *bulōn (compare West Frisian bolle, Dutch bul, German Bulle, Old Norse boli), from Proto-Indo-European *bhl̥no (compare Old Irish ball (“limb”), Latin follis (“bellows, leather bag”), Thracian βόλινθος (bólinthos, “wild bull”), Albanian bolle (“testicles”), Ancient Greek φαλλός (phallós, “penis”)), from Proto-Indo-European *bhel (“to blow”). More at blow.


Just my 2c.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.

But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.


Edited by Abramelin

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The Puzzler

The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.

But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.


Hmm. How about the variation of TRUE. The second WER here - wêr. It might equate to TRUE ELDER or something... (like the only true God type thing)


, afries., st. M. (a): nhd. Mann; ne. man; Vw.: s. -jeld; Hw.: vgl. got. waír, an.

verr (1), ae. wer (1), as. wer* (1), ahd. wer* (2); E.: germ. *wera-, *weraz, st. M.

(a), Mann; idg. *øÂros, Adj., M., kräftig, Mann, Pokorny 1177; s. idg. *øei- (3),

*øeØý-, *øÆ-, V., gehen, erstreben, ersehnen, erjagen, wollen (V.), kräftig sein (V.),

Pokorny 1123; L.: Hh 127a, Rh 1136a


* 12, afries., Adj.: nhd. wahr, wahrheitsgetreu, wirklich, gültig; ne. true,

truthful; Vw.: s. -haf-t-e-lik, -haf-t-ich, -haf-t-ic-hê-d, -hê-d, -lik, -lÆk-man-n; Hw.:

vgl. got. *wÐreis, an. vÏrr (2), ae. wÚr (3), as. hwõr*, wõr* (1), ahd. wõr* (1); Q.:

R, H, W, E, B; E.: germ. *wÐra-, *wÐraz, *wÚra-, *wÚraz, *wÐrja-, *wÐrjaz,

*wÚrja-, *wÚrjaz, Adj., zuverlässig, wahr, freundlich; idg. *øeræs-, Adj., freundlich,

vertrauenswert, wahr, Pokorny 1165; s. idg. *øer- (11), *øerý-, Sb., Freundlichkeit,

Pokorny 1165; W.: nfries. wier, Adj., wahr, wirklich; W.: saterl. wer, Adj., wahr,

wirklich; W.: nnordfries. wer, Adj., wahr, wirklich; L.: Hh 127b, Rh 1135b; R.: at

wÐr-a, afries., Adv.: nhd. fürwahr; ne. indeed, truly; L.: Hh 151b

PS: I thought I was in the OLB thread, I might just add this post there, see what Otharus thinks.

Edited by The Puzzler

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The Puzzler

The 'fir' in Fir Bolg must mean 'people' or 'men' because there were more Irish tribes that had 'Fir' as first part of their names.

Maybe we could think of 'werewolf', which means nothing but 'manwolf'.

"Wr_alda" (as the name is also written in the OLB) could then mean 'the Old Man'.... and not 'the Overly Old One'.

But 'wr' or 'wer' would be a noun with 'alda' as adjective, and that is not the normal OLB word order.


I think also that Fir is men. Seems likely.

The origin of the Fir Bolg name is the subject of some dispute. Older commentators consider them the "men of (the god/dess) Bolg" or "men of bags" (compare Irish bolg meaning 'belly', 'bag').

To blow, I'm thinking - leather bag, to blow - bagpipes. Typically Scottish now, but the word is actually in the OLB.

They could have been men of the bagpipes.

The Image of Irelande...



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The Puzzler

For GGG on this one, bellows are mandatory in ancient times to get a hot enough heat for metal working, so I could see they may be men of the bellows too, men who were metal workers.

The surname Bolger means one who sold leather bags, wallets etc.

Edited by The Puzzler

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