Was Christ a Yogi?

[Shabd Mystic]

I was just reading a book where Master Charan Singh explained why such Masters as Jesus were harmed in their day:

It is really very unfortunate that all these saints had to go through all these tortures. It is simply because the worldly people never like them, and their teachings. Saints do not come to create any religions --- they do not come to conform to all the rituals and ceremonies which we are used to, because that is a profession for the priests, and when they preach the real teachings of saints, naturally, those professionals do not like it. As a result the saints generally have to face all sorts of troubles and tortures. Otherwise, they never do anything which we cannot understand. They are never harmful to society. If you read the history of their lives, you will find that their only "fault" is that they want to save us from the cycle of birth and death, they want us to detach ourselves from the worldly possessions and the worldly loves, and they want to attach us to the Lord. They do not accept money. They do not interfere in any religion. They do not interfere in any religion. They do not recruit people to fight one nation against another.

Saints only awaken the love of the Lord within us, but people are so much tied to each other, so much tied to their creeds, and are such slaves of old rituals, that they feel that probably the saints are heathens. What are they going to do with us, they ask. So, they crucify them, kill them, flay them alive and try to torture them in so many ways. And when those saints leave, then the very same people weep for them, worship them, but while they were living nobody recognized them -- nobody gave them their due. After the saints go back, then again the people come under the sway of the priests, the professionals, I would call them. Those professionals, in the name of those very saints, again want to keep the people under their sway. Again the people, of course, in the manner prescribed by the priests, worship them and love them. In this way these professionals will not let the people understand the real teachings of those saints, which would enable them to worship and love God within themselves, as designated by Him, through His saints.

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[Habitat]

Do you have the name and address and hourly rate of a Living Master, SM ?

Sure do.

Does he have a name ?

[MysticStrummer]

Those Romans were very efficient killers, no hope of a crucified person surviving, IMO.

Long delay in replying to this... but... I agree, assuming he was crucified at all, which some question.

[+Link of Hyrule]

There are so many inconsistences in the religious texts through mistranslation or misunderstanding with the ever present selfish agendas which you pointed out.

Where did I get the Inner Light idea from? Personal experience.

I know we obviously have disagreements, and this thread is neither the time nor the place to go into detail on the matter. There is something of far more value that you are seeming to overlook. But first to these two points (as I said, these are not 100% relevant to the specific topic so I will try to be as brief as possible:

1- Whether mistranslations or misunderstandings exist is not relevant to your question - you are basing the beliefs of a few to judge the actions of the many. None of these comments detract from the statement that mutual tolerance and respect is a better approach at both healing differences and promoting unity (compared to the alternative - destroy the identity of all and say that they all basically taught the same thing).

2- In my opinion, "personal experience" plays virtually zero role in interpreting the Bible. Personal experience is invaluable in dealing with personal experience, but when it comes to the Bible what we personally believe is actually irrelevant, in my opinion. We can say "this means this to me and something else means something different to someone else", but that's just a wishy washy way of saying it doesn't really matter what the Bible teaches, just take what you like and move along - what Jesus may or may not have taught is actually of no consequence, just as long as you get something out of it. Which is a perfectly fine position to hold for people who take that point of view. But in extreme situations this can actually produce the opposite effect, as experience can show.

That said, these two points actually do nothing to address the wider theme of my post. Whether violence exists in Northern Ireland or not, or whether people take these differences and create conflict is equally of no consequence to me. My sole point has and always will be that the best way to fix this violence is not by androgenysing many things to appear as if they are all the same *yes, I'm not sure whether "androgenysing" is even a word, but it fits the context to suggest the removal of vital individual parts in order to make the rest appear "the same"* This does an injustice to all beliefs, not just those who do harm, nor just to us who live every day as we do.

Each religion is vibrantly different, in the same way that a hundred different flowers all hold different characteristics. The way to future peace, in my opinion, (and this is the primary reason for my post - the other points are of little consequence to this greater theme) is NOT to neuter beliefs as to become the same, but actually to celebrate differences and allow everyone to uniquely celebrate their own beliefs. From this comes the only honourable path.

Can your alternative work? Yes, I believe it can. But it will destroy centuries of life in doing so (and not all those centuries are full of hatred and discrimination). The best alternative is to thus celebrate the differences in mutual unity, learning, understanding, and respect. That is my firm conviction, and if it disagrees with anyone's view of spirituality, then I cannot apologise for it.

~ Regards,

[sutemi]

I know we obviously have disagreements, and this thread is neither the time nor the place to go into detail on the matter. There is something of far more value that you are seeming to overlook. But first to these two points (as I said, these are not 100% relevant to the specific topic so I will try to be as brief as possible:

1- Whether mistranslations or misunderstandings exist is not relevant to your question - you are basing the beliefs of a few to judge the actions of the many. None of these comments detract from the statement that mutual tolerance and respect is a better approach at both healing differences and promoting unity (compared to the alternative - destroy the identity of all and say that they all basically taught the same thing).

2- In my opinion, "personal experience" plays virtually zero role in interpreting the Bible. Personal experience is invaluable in dealing with personal experience, but when it comes to the Bible what we personally believe is actually irrelevant, in my opinion. We can say "this means this to me and something else means something different to someone else", but that's just a wishy washy way of saying it doesn't really matter what the Bible teaches, just take what you like and move along - what Jesus may or may not have taught is actually of no consequence, just as long as you get something out of it. Which is a perfectly fine position to hold for people who take that point of view. But in extreme situations this can actually produce the opposite effect, as experience can show.

That said, these two points actually do nothing to address the wider theme of my post. Whether violence exists in Northern Ireland or not, or whether people take these differences and create conflict is equally of no consequence to me. My sole point has and always will be that the best way to fix this violence is not by androgenysing many things to appear as if they are all the same *yes, I'm not sure whether "androgenysing" is even a word, but it fits the context to suggest the removal of vital individual parts in order to make the rest appear "the same"* This does an injustice to all beliefs, not just those who do harm, nor just to us who live every day as we do.

Each religion is vibrantly different, in the same way that a hundred different flowers all hold different characteristics. The way to future peace, in my opinion, (and this is the primary reason for my post - the other points are of little consequence to this greater theme) is NOT to neuter beliefs as to become the same, but actually to celebrate differences and allow everyone to uniquely celebrate their own beliefs. From this comes the only honourable path.

Can your alternative work? Yes, I believe it can. But it will destroy centuries of life in doing so (and not all those centuries are full of hatred and discrimination). The best alternative is to thus celebrate the differences in mutual unity, learning, understanding, and respect. That is my firm conviction, and if it disagrees with anyone's view of spirituality, then I cannot apologise for it.

~ Regards,

Hi PA, Thanks for the reply, nice to hear your perspective. I am not sure the Meditation approach would destroy centuries of life, but then there are those who supposedly meditate and so should have compassion, Love and understanding but I wouldn’t want them to get into any position of power. I live in a little village with great community feel and I do go to the church because it is a community place and I will be at the Christmas service as usual. I am not a Christian hater and I don’t get a buzz out of arguing. I have been lucky in finding something I find great Peace from and it doesn’t have to be forced on anyone, in fact force does not work because meditation only really works when the heart longs for Peace and you can’t force longing it is just something we feel. Take care PA regards

[Shabd Mystic]

Thomas Keating interview about Christian mysticism.

A few highlights from the interview:

Centering Prayer is a contemporary term for an ancient and well traveled Christian path towards contemplation. It is a practical way of cultivating interior silence based largely on The Cloud of Unknowing for practical inspiration. It is suggested in a number of places in the Gospel, and especially in the classical invitation of Jesus when he said, “When you pray, go to your inner room, close the door and pray to the Father in secret, and the Father who sees in secret, will reward you.” So what distinguishes it from other forms of prayer such as vocal prayers, aspirations, or reading the scriptures in a meditative way? All these practices are stepping stones to the silence of our own inner mysterious self, which is deeper than the senses, deeper than thinking, deeper even than consciousness itself.

........

To see everything in God and to see God in everything normally takes a lifetime of practice. The great spiritual traditions of Vedanta and Buddhism certainly have experience of this state and have come to it through similar means, especially through cultivating interior silence. Silence is God’s first language. The practice of interior silence gradually morphs into the presence of the Higher Power during meditative prayer.

........

Every time you have a major breakthrough in self-knowledge, and see the way the divine works within your own psyche, external events, and interior experiences of the divine, you are transformed in some degree. Your relationship with God, others, yourself, and all creation keeps changing for the better. Most of the world’s religions have developed maps to describe this process. Union with God is really possible. Unity with God I presume, is what is meant by Heaven, but that too is available in this life for the humble of heart.

........

In the Christian perspective, the love of God and of all other human beings invites us to share and enjoy not just the best of the human potential as it evolves, but participation in the divine life itself. Divine life is basically the inner freedom to choose the right and the good spontaneously. Thinking belongs to the rational level and is a necessary stage in the process. But now we need to respond directly to the divine presence within us. This is the precise focus and purpose of Centering Prayer, which is a humble beginning to the dynamic process of transformation into the ultimate Source of all that exists and to whatever lies beyond the present divine plan for our planet and the human family.

[Habitat]

Sure do. And no living Master would ever have an "hourly rate." Nor would He ever charge a penny. Nor would He ever receive a penny for His work (and would always support Himself, say as a carpenter). Nor would He, or anyone associated with Him ever fund-raise in any way.

In this One's case He would also run 3 incredible hospitals where ALL care was 100% free to anyone. He would also speak 3-4 times per year to groups from 250,000-300,000 people and every single one would be fed for free. That's the equivalent of 4 annual Woodstocks in the amount of people who show up just to hear Him speak.

Because of such incredible demand and because of the incredible heat in India that would cause incredible hardships, he would speak at one of the world's largest covered structures that has a roof covering 32 acres. It also has a modern sound and video set up so people in the "back rows" can see and hear Him.

He would also preside over a large and modern community that houses more than 6,000 residents and which offers absolutely free food and accommodations to any seekers or followers who wish to come and see Him.

That community would also build a huge library to house more than half a million volumes of spiritual books and texts of every sort imaginable and will be open for any scholars or researchers wishing to research religion or philosophy or mysticism.

That Master will be so "big" He will be like a "rock star" in the type of devotion He engenders and will have more than 2 million followers in more than 90 countries, yet it will be nearly impossible to ever know much about "Him" because He doesn't allow Himself to be photographed (except for a couple shots taken just to satisfy the continuous requests of seekers and followers) or recorded.

You will never see Him on TV or anywhere else "promoting" Himself or the teachings. There will be no promotion of any kind anywhere because those who are meant to find Him will and those who aren't won't. He always says it isn't about "Him" but is only about the teachings.

You won't ever see any of His followers ever do anything like I've done in this thread because it is forbidden (I'll just say that I've done this on my own and not to promote "Him" in any way whatsoever but to put out the "possibility" that there might be a lot more to the teachings of Jesus, as well as others paths, than it appears - it is up to anyone coming to that conclusion to do the "seeking" - and I surely will suffer the consequences "internally" for letting my own "ego" take me beyond the teachings by foolishly thinking "I" could ever offer anything to anyone).

As for the Master being so "big" among followers, He travels to many different countries like the U.S. every few years so He can hold talks for His followers around the country, but nobody is ever forewarned or told of His coming because the crowds would become huge and there would be fools who would tip off media and it would turn into a circus - the media would be interested only because this "Guy" engendered such an incredible following after being the latest in a particular line of Masters dating back a century and a half (in that location, but going back forever when attached to the lines it came from elsewhere) though few would even know of His existence.

When he came to the U.S. last summer He spent one day in different spots and people were given only 48 hours notice that He would be there to speak (people who want to be notified that He is coming give email addresses or phone numbers and are contacted by volunteers). I got an email notification and I managed to travel more than 500 miles one way in order to just listen to Him speak and answer questions for about an hour. That was the entire "event." After it ended and He left the podium, everyone went home.

With just that little bit of notification more than 5,000 people showed up, some who traveled more than 2,000 miles round trip. And despite the "excitement" of the devotees He is always received in dead silence. Even in crowds of a quarter million people.

He doesn't allow His many talks to be recorded in any way because He says everything He says has been said by the previous Masters and is available to anyone in any of the many books that have already been published (and are available in 35 different languages and are sold at "cost" and not at profit, for anyone who wants them).

That is but a small summation. There is sooooo much more, but I figured I'd throw that out just to to show how your attempt to to take a shot at what I was saying by throwing out the "what does He charge" line was an epic FAIL, lol. But thanks for playing. That was fun.

.

This is just awful, SM. You have fallen into the trap of hero worship ! Why ? You say he has nothing to say that has not already been said by previous "masters", but you travel 500 miles to listen to him for an hour. That doesn't make much sense to me. As for the charity, we know the funds have to come from somewhere, he is either taking donations that pay for it, or is very wealthy from "worldly" activity !I also see an elitism in your claim he is only available to minister to a selected group who are brought into the fold in some mysterious way. You have not advanced the case that this "living master" is indispensable, at all. There is some redemption in his saying it isn't about "him", but the teachings. Therein lies the contradiction of being told not to trust in the "son of man", coming from the mouth of the "son of man" ! I suggest you hasten away from such cult-like adoration, which is definitely the stock-in-trade of "organized" religion which you profess to detest. I see organization by your hero on a large scale.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Hi PA, Thanks for the reply, nice to hear your perspective. I am not sure the Meditation approach would destroy centuries of life, but then there are those who supposedly meditate and so should have compassion, Love and understanding but I wouldn’t want them to get into any position of power. I live in a little village with great community feel and I do go to the church because it is a community place and I will be at the Christmas service as usual. I am not a Christian hater and I don’t get a buzz out of arguing. I have been lucky in finding something I find great Peace from and it doesn’t have to be forced on anyone, in fact force does not work because meditation only really works when the heart longs for Peace and you can’t force longing it is just something we feel. Take care PA regards

No worries. I wasn't referring to meditation, I was addressing your comment that we should find unity in the "common ground" among beliefs. Many times when people use words like this they are saying "get to the core of things and all religions pretty much teach the same thing". I think that unity should be sought not in the "common ground" but in celebrating the differences that make each religion a beauty in its own right.

If your post wasn't aimed at this but instead a discussion on meditation then I apologise for the misunderstanding

~ PA

[Shabd Mystic]

This is just awful, SM. You have fallen into the trap of hero worship !

Hahahaha! Thanks for sharing your expertise. I'll take it into consideration.

Why ? You say he has nothing to say that has not already been said by previous "masters", but you travel 500 miles to listen to him for an hour.

Jesus didn't say anything new either but His disciples got more than you could ever imagine just from hearing Him speak whatever words He wanted to throw out, even if He'd said them 100 times before.

In Jesus's day I'm sure the disciples heard the same exact thing from all those who didn't have a clue about what they were taking about.

Same was surely said to Buddha's followers, and the followers of every perfect Mystic since the beginning of time.

Somehow, I'm sure such ridicule never bothered them. I wonder why? Maybe, just maybe, it was because they found it incredibly amusing. But that's just a wild guess.

I also see an elitism in your claim he is only available to minister to a selected group who are brought into the fold in some mysterious way.

Nothing "elitist' about it at all. There are an incredible number of doctors, scientists, judges, professors and other vastly accomplished followers, and there are just as many extremely poor and uneducated followers as well. People are "brought" into the fold based solely upon their "readiness" to follow the Path. A Perfect Mystic can take one look at you and instantly see if your "karma" is favorable or not.

Mystics, like Jesus, have a profound effect on all "future karma" as meditation slowly burns it away. It is in fact the burning of that karma that allows you to make progress in the inside." As you burn karma you slowly progress (very slowly at first if this is your first "lifetime" on the Path). In fact, the "first stage" always takes the longest time (again, for 'first timers" on the Path). The Masters all liken it to the speed of an ant because everyone has an incalculable amount of karma from millions of lives and you can't ever become "one with God" until it has all been "paid off." Meditation is the ONLY form of God-worship that negates karma. That's why it's the ONLY way anyone can ever return to God.

The very first stage of meditation is reached when the soul finally "leaves the body." The Masters have said that when that happens you have, in effect, "won the game of life." There is still a ton more to be done, but once that happens the speed greatly increases (and you have burned off a ton of karma just to get there). Once that happens, you have no doubt it happened. And it's nothing remotely like an "out of body experience" or "astral travel."

Once you have done that you have, in effect, "died while living." That's what Jesus was talking about in The Gospel of Thomas when He said, more than once, that those who did "something" would never "taste death." Without getting into all that it means for the mystic who achieves that state, it is an epic "win" in several ways. One thing it does is to guarantee that you physical death will be very pleasant (which is not the case for 90% of the world who have to face a very unpleasant process).

A perfect Mystic can, and will, drastically reduce any "future karma" in many ways, but they all say They won't change anything about your "current karma" (for this life) except in rare cases. There are always a lot of amazing stories around Masters that show this isn't always the case, and the Bible has several. They are called "miracles." Just research all the amazing stories around Kirpal Singh (who died in 1974) to see what often happens.

My own life has been incredible that way in just the last 12 months, but in numerous "smaller" ways than "miracles." It's so crazy I was telling a friend I could write a NY Times best seller about it but nobody would ever believe me, lol.

My theory is that the Masters all stress that they almost never change anyone's current-life karma because if stories started being told that they did, they would be swamped by people seeking initiation, all of whom were at the end of their rope in this lifetime. As soon as life turned bad, they'd think, "I guess I should give that God-thing a shot."

Any time a Master alters a disciple's karma He has to take it on Himself, though in a much-reduced form (but it can "add up" if the karma is a lot - some say Jesus's crucifixion, and the horrific ends so many Masters have had is for that very reason). So, anyone wanting to be initiated and follow the Path has to have favorable enough karma in order to do it successfully. If someone with very heavy karma applies for initiation the Master must turn him down, or He has to take on enough of that person's karma so that he can succeed on the Path.

I just found out, about a month ago, about one particular case where a VERY famous person applied for initiation about 4 decades ago with a Perfect Master and was turned down (he was crushed). This same guy ended up having a very public life that showed he had very bad karma and could never have followed this Path, even though nobody could understand at the time why he'd been turned down. (I was shocked that I'd never heard that story, but it only came out because of friends of this guy talking about it as Masters would never "advertise" any such thing.

You have not advanced the case that this "living master" is indispensable, at all.

Nor have I tried to. I'm not trying to prove anything, as I've said time and time again. People who are "ready to hear" will hear what I'm saying (or just become a bit curious and one day try to learn more), and people who aren't "ready" couldn't possibly hear a word of it no matter what I say. What I've shared is here only for the "one in 10,000" (as Jesus said) who are ready to hear such things. The rest will live in the comfort of their belief that they already have all the answers.

There is some redemption in his saying it isn't about "him", but the teachings. Therein lies the contradiction of being told not to trust in the "son of man", coming from the mouth of the "son of man" !

If that's what you "read into" that, that's great. I have absolutely no doubt you are going to see whatever you "need" to see, and I've understood that for quite some time now. So take that line as proof that he's no different than you and go enjoy your meditation. You've already found the answer, so why are you sticking around just to tear down what I'm sharing? How is anything I'm saying any kind of threat to you if you already have something so great?

A guy who believes he's the world's greatest looking guy usually doesn't grab every average looking guy he sees to tell him he's not good looking. But if he's walking down the street with his girlfriend and Brad Pitt walks by and the woman's knees get week he will go out of his way to say how Brad's nothing special at all.

Brad Pitt didn't make that guy any less handsome, but that anyone might think Brad's better looking than him is such a blow to his ego that he becomes obsessed with trying to convince them that Brad isn't so great. People with tremendous egos who get threatened by something rarely come out and say "I'm so much better" (or "what I do is so much better"). Instead, in order to make themselves feel good, they choose to badmouth the "ego threat" and try to diminish it.

Since I know you are already an incredibly accomplished mystic whose ego has been greatly reduced because of how high he's gone "inside," you surely can't be here trying to ridicule this Master because of your own ego and insecurities, so why is it that you are even doing so? Is it because you have advanced so far mystically that you have come to love the world as brothers and you are so concerned about me that you are trying to protect me?

If so, that's fantastic, but i have to say that any mystic who has made even relatively minor internal progress would never attempt to do that by trying to portray me as a fool, as in this case, or with lines like "how much does He charge?" so why are you doing this?

I suggest you hasten away from such cult-like adoration,

Hmmm. Maybe you really do care about me and you just have that "crazy guru" way of showing it, like Osho and Adi Da were famous for. Is that it? If so, thanks for your concern but I know what I'm doing as I have had plenty of "proof," and so stopped living in the "wishful thinking" zone long ago. So you can stop worrying about me. But thanks again.

By the way, what form of mysticism would you recommend instead? Should I instead follow your lead? Who is your guru? Do you have one, or is your path a solo gig? If so, i guess that one wouldn't be "cult-like adoration," it would be more in line with "self-adoration." I'm sure that's great for you but i don't consider myself anywhere near "special" enough to traverse the numerous and highly dangerous inner planes without someone whose been through them Himself many times.

But I hope it works out well for you!

which is definitely the stock-in-trade of "organized" religion which you profess to detest. I see organization by your hero on a large scale.

So, you are saying a highly evolved Mystic must be disorganized? Interesting way to think. Very interesting. Thanks for sharing your insight once again. You've surely helped me see that there is a WORLD of difference between the Path I follow and the path you follow. Thanks again.

.

[Shabd Mystic]

Some interesting stuff about the inner voyage from Maharaj Sawan Singh:

We are now under the control of the mind. That is, we hanker after the things of this world. The mystic Adept who comes from Sat-lok is the lion. He roars and makes the cub also roar. He is himself merged in the Divine Melody and He manifests this resounding Music in us also. The moment the soul realizes itself and its enormous innate spiritual power, it no longer fears the mind nor the senses. It then controls both the mind and the senses.

The light of the soul is always within us, but we cannot see it. It is just like a lamp which is wrapped in a number of coverings and cannot radiate light. But as the coverings are removed one by one, the light becomes visible. The soul's truly radiant self is known only in Sach Khand, the fifth region. Even in Daswan Dwar, the third region, which is in Par Brahm or beyond Brahm, there is the finer covering of Maya over the soul.

When the soul goes beyond Sahansdal Kanwal, the negative powers on the way are at their worst. It should be clearly understood that the ruler of the Three Worlds is Kal, the negative power. The True Lord is Sat Nam. Kal can neither kill a soul nor burn it. He borrowed the souls in his lower worlds from above, and keeps them imprisoned or caged within the Three Worlds. He has bound these souls with the chains of worldly pleasures. Whenever a soul starts to rise towards the higher regions, Kal goes "all out", so to say, to stop it from doing so.

"The Master has no veil,

The veil is on our eyes.

Due to the dust of our karmas

The eyes fail to see

And the need is to remove this veil."

(Khwaja Hafiz)

At places on the way one meets beautiful astral men and women, the like of which are not seen in this world. They offer inducements of various kinds in an efforts to prevent the soul from going up. But the Master, who is with the soul of his disciple, will not let the soul even see them. As a matter of fact, these negative powers will not come near Nam given by a Saint. Just as a king's servant would not be stopped at any barrier, similarly, a soul repeating the holy names will not be stopped anywhere.

"The Guru's sword and the coat of mail is the Lord's worship,

With which he overcometh the dreadful Kal."

(Guru Amardas)

"Neither death nor Maya's snare for him,

For he swims across (the ocean of phenomena) with devotion

to Sat guru."

(Guru Nanak)

There are vast regions inside. After crossing Sahansdal Kanwal, the soul goes to Brahm or Trikuti, from where it goes to Par Brahm (Beyond Brahm). Only those who have a perfect Master reach there. When a disciple goes in, he gets to see and know all that is described above.

.

[Habitat]

You are becoming defensive, SM. You are a follower of a personality cult, a secret one at that ! This is sheer folly, especially as you admit he has nothing to offer that adds to the treasury of the wisdom of the ages. You seem to infer that your "inner journey" is somehow facilitated by being a nominal follower of this fellow, that is the same kind of "preferred status" a lot of church people claim, merely from being "members" of the "club". It is elitist and exclusivist, and has nothing at all to do with mysticism, except in a relapse state !

[Shabd Mystic]

From a Time Magazine article:

How The Brain Rewires Itself

...

HAPPINESS AND MEDITATION

COULD THINKING ABOUT THOUGHTS IN A new way affect not only such pathological brain states as OCD and depression but also normal activity? To find out, neuroscientist Richard Davidson of the University of Wisconsin at Madison turned to Buddhist monks, the Olympic athletes of mental training. Some monks have spent more than 10,000 hours of their lives in meditation. Earlier in Davidson's career, he had found that activity greater in the left prefrontal cortex than in the right correlates with a higher baseline level of contentment. The relative left/right activity came to be seen as a marker for the happiness set point, since people tend to return to this level no matter whether they win the lottery or lose their spouse. If mental training can alter activity characteristic of OCD and depression, might meditation or other forms of mental training, Davidson wondered, produce changes that underlie enduring happiness and other positive emotions? "That's the hypothesis," he says, "that we can think of emotions, moods and states such as compassion as trainable mental skills."

With the help and encouragement of the Dalai Lama, Davidson recruited Buddhist monks to go to Madison and meditate inside his functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) tube while he measured their brain activity during various mental states. For comparison, he used undergraduates who had had no experience with meditation but got a crash course in the basic techniques. During the generation of pure compassion, a standard Buddhist meditation technique, brain regions that keep track of what is self and what is other became quieter, the fMRI showed, as if the subjects--experienced meditators as well as novices--opened their minds and hearts to others.

More interesting were the differences between the so-called adepts and the novices. In the former, there was significantly greater activation in a brain network linked to empathy and maternal love. Connections from the frontal regions, so active during compassion meditation, to the brain's emotional regions seemed to become stronger with more years of meditation practice, as if the brain had forged more robust connections between thinking and feeling.

But perhaps the most striking difference was in an area in the left prefrontal cortex--the site of activity that marks happiness. While the monks were generating feelings of compassion, activity in the left prefrontal swamped activity in the right prefrontal (associated with negative moods) to a degree never before seen from purely mental activity. By contrast, the undergraduate controls showed no such differences between the left and right prefrontal cortex. This suggests, says Davidson, that the positive state is a skill that can be trained.

...

The most interesting thing might have been the reporter's line, "Some monks have spent more than 10,000 hours of their lives in meditation."

He writes as if that's some amazing amount of meditation, lol. That's a couple hours a day for about 14 years. Get up around 25,000 to 30,000 hours and you are beginning to see something fairly impressive but 10,000 hours is still a beginner.

If they've gotten these kind of results from this study imagine what they'd find in someone who averaged 5 hours per day for 20 years. How about 30 years? 40?

I know many people who do 10,000 hours in 5 years so you can only imagine the kind of changes they start to manifest in just a decade.

.

Edited March 5, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[Shabd Mystic]

“At the moment of death, the soul experiences the same impressions and passes through the same processes as are experienced by those who are initiated into the great Mysteries.” ~ St. Plutarch

[J. K.]

Karmakazi: Thank you for your compliment. A true discussion is a two-way experience. If I'm busy yelling my point of view, I will never hear anything else.

Shabd Mystic: I would describe my out-of-body experiences in this manner. I see a vision of myself joined with others of like mind, operating as a unified community. It's sort of like seeing a sponge on the sea floor. We tend to see it as one object, even though it consists of many individual life forms. I see this in my spirit from an overhead view, as if seeing a form of energy that unites individuals.

Regarding Charan Singh, I would have a different interpretation than his, particularly his "light of the world" reference. For me, that verse is taken out of context. The time to which Jesus is referring (my opinion) is the time when God will totally withdraw His presence from the world in the last days

I think our biggest difference is in what we accept as source documents. I presume that you give more credence to the Gospel of Thomas as opposed to the usual New Testament books.

[Kailash 108]

Jesus Christ was indeed a Yogi. I believe he was in Northern India ( Kashmir Region which was Ancient India just like Tibet and Nepal ) for seventeen years he went there knowing he was a re incarnate of the Supreme he went back after the years spent in this region and returned as a Messenger God for his region just like Buddha to the North and Allah in the middle east. The bible mentions the lost years of Jesus for many many years. My thought is when Krishna passed thus started Kali yuga on earth and the big flood came shortly after. Then came the first Messenger for this yuga known as The Buddha he is mentioned in Hindu Scriptures as being the 9th and latest incarnate of Lord Vishnu who is known as the Preserver for earth. After Buddha came Christ then Allah then the Sikh Gurus all these individuals who came as Messengers of God in Human Form. I believe they all have the same soul as Krishna which Hindus call Omni Potence meaning the Soul always carries on to the next being. Jesus Christ life was very similar to that of Lord Krishna..... many are putting together the Krishna Concioussness and Christ Conciousness together and realizing the two were indeed the same. Though I believe Chrisianity and Islam have had their teachings re worded and edited by evil men over the years... though many are starting to realizing the truth and now are starting to see the truth and are moving away from these religions and just becoming Spiritual just believing in Christ and not Chrisianity. Fanatic Christians have a hard time seeing the Symbolism of there words they are taught... alot of teh pastors in the past instilled fear in people rather than preaching more Love in which Christ indeed wanted, I believe even Christ said my Churches will be corrupted by evil over the years... not sure where I read this maybe someone can clarify this or something similar related to my comment. As we move into these New Scientific Age ( Dwarpara Yuga ) we will see truth come into light and see the True life of Gods like Jesus Christ and so on. Cheers!

Edited March 6, 2012 by Kailash 108

[Shabd Mystic]

Shabd Mystic: I would describe my out-of-body experiences in this manner. I see a vision of myself joined with others of like mind, operating as a unified community. It's sort of like seeing a sponge on the sea floor. We tend to see it as one object, even though it consists of many individual life forms. I see this in my spirit from an overhead view, as if seeing a form of energy that unites individuals.

It's interesting that you describe it as an "out of body experience" because I've been "chatting" with someone from this board who PM'd me about some things I'd said and wanted to ask some questions. One of the things he'd said was that he was interested in such things as "astral travel" and "out of body experiences."

I told him in no uncertain terms to avoid trying to learn such things (it can be 'learned" or people like you can have them spontaneously, or at least I presume that's how it happened) because they are in no way "spiritual" and in fact can make it near impossible to ever seek true spiritual experiences via meditation (of course if that is of no interest then it's fine, but he was very interested in mysticism). Spiritual things happen "inside." That's where God and all heavens are, and where they must be reached.

I explained to him that once you finally reach that exalted state when the "soul leaves the body" during meditation, it is a completely different thing than when people experience "astral travel" or have OBEs. Astral travel and OBEs almost always describe visions, or viewing something "from above," or "floating around indoors, outdoors, or around the world."

Those are all "outer" experiences. They are "of the world." It happens on an "astral level," but it is still all about the world. It is a "worldly" thing, not a "spiritual" thing, even though it happened "in the spiritual form."

There is an EPIC difference between those type experiences and the type you have "on the inside." The inner experiences are not only impossible to describe (the best that can ever be given as descriptions are the closest thing to an earthly experience that might come close to describing the inner experiences), but they have incredibly profound impacts on you and your life. And such things keep getting more incredible and having bigger impacts as you go.

I'm not trying to downplay what you experienced at all because I know such experiences are incredible and also often lead to changes. But there is a big difference and it's a lot more than I can cover here, or you would ever want to hear anyway, lol. I'm just trying to tell you I think what you experienced is GREAT, but I want you to know there is a LOT more available should the interest ever rise one day.

Regarding Charan Singh, I would have a different interpretation than his, particularly his "light of the world" reference. For me, that verse is taken out of context. The time to which Jesus is referring (my opinion) is the time when God will totally withdraw His presence from the world in the last days

I respect your opinion, but that's such a crucial thing that I've chosen to rely on the "opinions" of countless Mystics (or "Perfect Masters") throughout history. They all teach, in many different ways and different languages, that "God is within us." That is not "symbolic." That is very literal. Our soul itself is a "spark" from God. It is God.

When it comes to God, souls are just like drops of water in relation to the ocean. When it is separate from the ocean the drop can attain all sorts of different coverings or forms. It can be mixed with dirt and become mud. It can be heated and become steam. It can be frozen and turned to ice. It can be a lot of different things, but it never stops being that drop of water. And when that drop gets heated by the sun and turned to a form where it can be taken up by a cloud, when that cloud passes back over the ocean and releases the drop once again, it merges back with the ocean. It is still a "drop," but when it is "one with the ocean" it becomes the ocean.

Our soul is what gives us life. When the soul leaves, "we" are dead. That is true of all living things. Science can do all sorts of things but they cannot create life from inert matter, nor can they say how it was done in the first place. They speculate about all sorts of things but they cannot duplicate it in a laboratory. They can say what life forms are composed of, even single-celled creatures, but they can't take those forms and combine them to give them life. They will never be able to do so.

"Life" is life because God exists within it. If God ever withdraws from earth then life will cease to exist.

The concept you describe came about because it was the only thing Christianity could come up with to try to claim Jesus wasn't saying what He was truly saying. Christianity is funny because some of the most Orthodox claim everything in the Bible is literal but then things like this come along and a literal definition would destroy the validity of Christianity, it can't possibly be literal.

As a rule, I've found that Christians have all sorts of interpretations for things that, if taken literally, perfectly match things countless Masters have already said. But when things are spoken of in mystical terms, and thus also match things countless Masters have already said, Christians tend to put a literal spin on them (or if that doesn't make sense, they come up with a different explanation).

The reason Christians aren't aware of the incredible number of things in the Bible that perfectly match the teachings of countless Mystics is because no Christian has ever wanted to take the time to do such research (it's been done by others but no Christian would ever "waste their time" reading such "heresy").

None want to hear anything that would cause doubt about Christianity. Not even a single quote from Jesus would ever be considered in any light except one that matches the beliefs of Christianity. A quote can have a dozen different interpretations and all could be acceptable by various Christians, but if the "literal" explanation doesn't match what they want to believe, it's 'impossible." Jesus must have been talking in "code" in such cases. That makes more sense.

I think our biggest difference is in what we accept as source documents. I presume that you give more credence to the Gospel of Thomas as opposed to the usual New Testament books.

Well, I accept The Gospel of Thomas because it not only perfectly matches all Jesus taught when viewed on the mystical level, but it also happens to perfectly match all the mystical teaching of numerous other Masters going back before Jesus, and going up to the present day.

I'm reading a book now which says how much it makes sense in very clear language (though it's not talking specifically about The gospel of Thomas). It says that God would never discriminate between Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Sikhs, and many others. He wouldn't only offer one group a way Home and send everyone who didn't believe, or who never even heard about it, or who were born severely retarded, or who died very young, to hell.

A God who would do that is not a God worthy of devotion.

And God also wouldn't have many different ways to get back Home to Him. Especially when all those different ways are so different and often contradict one another.

God would only have one way to get back Home to Him and that way would never discriminate in any way. It wouldn't matter what your sex was, what the color of your skin was, where you lived, when you were born, what your financial situation was, what your health was like, or anything else. That same way would be available to me today, and that same way would have been available to everyone 10,000 years ago.

God didn't just suddenly 'wake up" one day and decide, "I guess I'd better let the exceptionally good people come back to me now. I'll just send my Son to explain how to do that and know that everyone will understand perfectly for thousands of years." Anyone who thinks God is anything like that seriously underestimates Him. They've probably been reading the Old testament a bit too much.

And there has only been one such way taught that long, and it has been taught by those few incredible people who managed to follow that way, and who were thus able to free their souls from the clutches of their minds, and who thus became one with God, or God in human flesh. Just like Jesus did.

As the Gospel of Thomas says:

(106) Jesus said, "When you make the two one, you will become the sons of man, and when you say, 'Mountain, move away,' it will move away."

(108) Jesus said, "He who will drink from my mouth will become like me. I myself shall become he, and the things that are hidden will be revealed to him."

There are similar quotes in the Bible but Christians will never see them as what they are clearly saying. For example:

Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. ~ Matthew 5:48

There are others but I'm not going to spend time posting all that because I know there is no way you, or any other Christian will EVER see such things in any way but a way that fits their preconceived notions. Christian beliefs can be torn to shreds from a million different angles that make a lot more sense, and that are backed by countless incredible sources, but if it means what you've been taught could be wrong, then it has to be wrong (I don't mean you in particular but almost every Christian I've ever known).

It takes a vastly more powerful "suspension of belief" to be a Christian than it does to even enjoy horror movies or sci-fi flicks. That would be okay except that there is absolutely NOTHING more important to any human being than discovering the absolute truth about how to find God and how to get with God either before or after death.

But Christians don't even offer the possibility that anything they believe could be wrong. After all, if you don't "believe," you can't go to heaven. So, it's best to believe whatever you've been told than to ever examine it deeply to make sure you aren't making an epic mistake. Since making SURE you'll go to heaven automatically disqualifies you from going to heaven, because it means you don't "believe," who would ever risk that just in case Christianity really is the one true religion?

It's better just to close your eyes and hang on tightly and hope you won't crash and burn.

.

[Shabd Mystic]

From: St. Thomas and me

Pope Gregory I said that only a prophet could understand the prophets.

...

Like everything else in my mystical development, I warmed up to the Gospel of Thomas slowly and cautiously. At first, I rejected it out-of-hand when I read saying 114, which offended me as sexist and completely out of character for Jesus. I didn't bother to learn what the mystical interpretation of "male" and "female" might be in that passage, and I was still of the opinion that every verse had to be "authentic" for any scripture to be worth something.

That changed as later as I began (slowly and cautiously) exploring Christian mysticism. I actually read the entire gospel, and I found that Thomas made a much more favorable impression on me. And later still, as I began spiritual practice and meditation, it seemed to be almost screaming the obvious, yet still remained beautifully enigmatic and mysterious. There's an almost literal feeling of depth in so many of the Thomas sayings, a sense that the meaning just keeps on going on deeper and deeper, level after level, and can never be exhausted. (The only other scriptures I can compare it to in this feeling are the Gospel of John, the Tao Te Ching, and some koans in the Mumonkan.)

...

I've long felt that almost all Christian thought, and "Jesus scholarship" in particular, is plagued by a dearth of serious mystical input. Everyone seems trapped in the quest for intellectual certainty, knowing what exactly Jesus did or didn't say, and did or didn't do. The ultra-liberal Jesus Seminar is simply the mirror image of entrenched Fundamentalism. Both sides (and most who are in-between), are mired in thinking that having the facts means having "True" Christianity.

The truth is that mystics understand mystics, and others cannot. Elaine Pagels made a great effort in her book, Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas, yet to anyone on the path, it's apparent that in spite of her years of scholarship on the Nag Hammadi gospels, she still seems an outsider, looking in on something that she admires, but cannot follow. I mean no disrespect to Dr. Pagels—she's simply in the same position as the overwhelming majority of adults on the planet. Factual knowledge can't transcend the ego—there must be a willingness to be utterly changed by that Reality which is beyond the mind, beyond concepts, and yes, beyond belief.

...

.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[Habitat]

From SM's post above......."I've long felt that almost all Christian thought, and "Jesus scholarship" in particular, is plagued by a dearth of serious mystical input. Everyone seems trapped in the quest for intellectual certainty, knowing what exactly Jesus did or didn't say, and did or didn't do. The ultra-liberal Jesus Seminar is simply the mirror image of entrenched Fundamentalism. Both sides (and most who are in-between), are mired in thinking that having the facts means having "True" Christianity.

The truth is that mystics understand mystics, and others cannot. Elaine Pagels made a great effort in her book, Beyond Belief: The Secret Gospel of Thomas, yet to anyone on the path, it's apparent that in spite of her years of scholarship on the Nag Hammadi gospels, she still seems an outsider, looking in on something that she admires, but cannot follow. I mean no disrespect to Dr. Pagelsshe's simply in the same position as the overwhelming majority of adults on the planet. Factual knowledge can't transcend the egothere must be a willingness to be utterly changed by that Reality which is beyond the mind, beyond concepts, and yes, beyond belief."

There certainly are plenty of people who want to "understand", and they are not about to give up, in the vast majority of cases. They may even claim to "understand". And that is a 100 % successful way to stay outside the door.

"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." (Rumi)

Edited March 6, 2012 by Habitat

[Shabd Mystic]

"Be who you are and say what you feel,

because those who mind don't matter,

and those who matter don't mind."

~ Dr. Seuss

.

Edited March 6, 2012 by Shabd Mystic

[Shabd Mystic]

"Sell your cleverness and buy bewilderment." (Rumi)

I always find it fascinating when people quote Perfect Masters like Rumi, Nanak and Kabir in defiance of everything they stood for.

"When the Master discloses the Secrets and Mysteries of the human microcosm,

your soul and mind will rush in rapture towards the high heavens."

- Rumi

[Shabd Mystic]

Rumi on ego:

"Knock, And He'll open the door

Vanish, And He'll make you shine like the sun

Fall, And He'll raise you to the heavens

Become nothing, And He'll turn you into everything."

~ Rumi

[Shabd Mystic]

Rumi on the Shabd (or Celestial Sound Current):

"Bring the sky beneath your feet and listen to Celestial Music everywhere."

- Rumi

"Rise above thy mental horizon, oh brave soul, and listen to the call of Music coming from above."

- Rumi

[Shabd Mystic]

The holy stream of Sound, the Holy Stream of Life,

and the Holy Stream of Light, these were never born, and can never die.

Enter the Holy Streams, even that Life, that Light, and that Sound which

gave you birth; that you may reach the kingdom of the Heavenly Father and become

one with him, even as the river empties into the far-distant sea.

~ Jesus, Essene Gospel of Peace

[Shabd Mystic]

"The Guru is great beyond words, and great is the good fortune of the disciple." ~ Kabir

"It is the mercy of my Satguru that has made me to know the unknown. I have learned from Him how to walk without feet, to see without eyes, to hear without ears, to drink without mouth, to fly without wings. I have brought my love and my meditation into the land where there is no sun and moon, nor day and night. Without eating, I have tasted of the sweetness of nectar; and without water, I have quenched my thirst. Where there is the response of delight, there is the fullness of joy. Before whom can that joy be uttered? " ~ Kabir

[Shabd Mystic]

"After meeting the Satguru, one understands the play of Shabda, and Surat (attention of the soul). It is the union of the drop and the ocean. What else can one say? Giving up the qualities of mind, one should follow the Path of the Master. Such a soul goes to Sat Lok and derives happiness from the Ocean of Happiness." ~ Kabir