The Land of the Free? Not so Much!

[+HerNibs]

I am curious why people want so badly to ignore the truth. If this was a meeting of people who got together to read Richard Dawkins books every week. You can bet that people would suddenly see the harassment. Then it would be clear. But since most people hate Christians, then we're just whining.

I really don't think the town of San Juan Capistrano is anti-Christian --

Religion statistics for San Juan Capistrano:

Percentage of population affiliated with a religious congregations: 44.78%

Adherents

Catholic Church (61%)Mainline Protestant Denominations (9%)Evangelical Denominations (18%)Other (12%)

Read more: http://www.city-data.com/city/San-Juan-Capistrano-California.html#ixzz1nbuHJ88U

Nibs

[Beckys_Mom]

Ignorant and unfair assessment of the discussion here.

What you believe is "the truth" is a completely subjective opinion. That all here who don't agree with you about this, "hate Christians".

Wow you are correct, that is an ignorant assessment towards all of us that have a disagreement... Not a nice thing to say.. Just because someone may disagree with a Christian, it sure doesn't mean they hate the Christian.. I never could understand that sort of assumption It does not make any sense ...We all have loved ones, family and friends who are Christian.. we do not hate them..

People regardless who they are will have some sort of disagreement...hate doesn't have to fall into it ..

[Jor-el]

You never have, and likely never will, need to.

We can only Hope. I sincerely hope for all our sakes that you are correct.

I agree. Getting a permit is a fairly easy, straightforward, process, which involves about an hour of going to the City Permit building and filling out a few forms. Even if for some inexplicable reason building thousands of dollars worth of additions to the house and a parking lot didn't twig anyone on to wondering if maybe this was a bit over the top for a home bible study, the warning from the city made it very clear, and later on the fine for refusing to heed the warning should have emphasized it.

This did not come out of left field. This was a slow build-up, with plenty of warnings, and a single, ridiculously simple, outcome. You are quite correct that this was never, and should never, have been an issue.

What made it an issue was people willing to believe before they knew. People who did not bother to listen to what other people say, but instead chose to believe they know what other people would say.

That sort of contradicts everything that has been established.

Let's take it by points...

1. You say that getting a permit is a fairly easy, straightforward, process, which involves about an hour of going to the City Permit building and filling out a few forms.

Rather it it takes 4 to 8 months depending on the complexity of the case, and it will cost a few thousand dollars. See Here for details

2. You say that even if for some inexplicable reason building thousands of dollars worth of additions to the house and a parking lot didn't twig anyone on to wondering if maybe this was a bit over the top for a home bible study, the warning from the city made it very clear, and later on the fine for refusing to heed the warning should have emphasized it.

What you seem to have missed is that they did not alter their land one bit, they added no additions to their house, they did not build a parking lot. This can be proved from sattelite imagery available earlier on in this thread. Did that simply pass you by?

The land used as a parking lot was beaten dirt in an area normally used to ride horses, you can actually see that from that sattelite image. The supposed addition to their home is their backyard patio. And I am surprised you didn'y see this because it was mentioned at least 3 times.

3. The Special use permit applies to 3 distinct types of entity:

1 Religious organizations, like churches, temples, synagogues, monasteries, religious retreats, and other places of religious worship.

2. Non-Profit Organizations that are non-religious.

3. Fraternal Orgainizations that are non-religious.

Examples of such fraternal and non-profit organizations in the general area are:

Big Brothers of Orange County

YMCA of Orange County

San Juan Capistrano Historical Society

CARE FOUNDATION - Humane Treatment for Animals

California Heart Connection

Mission Montessori Academy

International Chili Society

Lake Mission Viejo Association

Laura's House - Against Domestic Violence Association

HBIC - Help for Brain Injured Children

If the law was being objectively applied where are the violations by these organizations, most of them have regular meetings in private homes, thius we know from their very character. They must certainly have over 20 members attending, yet we do not have on record any such violation.

This is clearly referred to by a number of sites:

It seems to me that regulating any regular gathering of more than three people has the potential to reach far too deeply into private lives. It could impact anything from a morning coffee klatch to a fantasy football league to a book club. For that matter, most families themselves have more than three people in them will the city start fining families for meeting each night for dinner? Theres no indication that the city has come down on anything other than this home church. The question is why?

Outside the Beltway

So there is no record of anybody getting treated in the same way as this couple in this city, even when doing exactly the same thing.

4. This might lead people to believe that it was a neighbour who complained to the authorities, but again even that does not seem to be the case. The neighbours themselves wrote to the city council in support of the Fromms, whom they said have not caused any disturbances with the meetings.

See: CBS Los Angeles

Actually, it was demonstrated that it was a church. Should the county choose to change their definition of a church, that is up to them. I personally do not think that is going to be likely, since that definition does a pretty good job defending all the churches that do actually follow the rules in their practice.

Nope I can prove it by the city councils own lawyers admitting to it.

So Aquatus, this is where I leave off, I have said what needed to be said, I have demonstrated it with information that can be researched... I leave it up to our readers to make their choice of whom to believe, either way I won't be posting again on this thread. If I do I'll be repeating myself, and just like you, I too get tired of doing that with those who do not read my posts.

Edited February 27, 2012 by Jor-el

[+Sherapy]

Exactly where in his post did you get all of that?

Or is that simply your logic working?

So was theirs, and they got fined.

My OP was quite clear, I couldn't get any clearer, unless you just happened along and didn't bother even seeing the video or some such thing... Eightbits was the one who informed me and others of the resolution of the situation, I had no information on that issue. That it was resolved is irrelevant, the post was about the fact that it actually happened... as the Title of this thread clearly states.

The Land of the Free? Not so Much! Home Bible Studies illegal in America

That is was resolved is the relevant aspect, Jo rel!.

I have an example; Say you have a house hold rule ( Law) that states all members under 18 have to be in by midnight. If the rule is broken the fine is a loss of all freedoms for a month.

Say you find out the next day that one of your sons came in at 12:30 the night before. So you notify him that he has lost all freedoms for a month.( In essence you cite him with a verbal ticket, a opportunity to plead his case .) He argues his case (gives you an explanation) and it turns out his brother looked at the clock wrong because the brother didn't have his glasses on.

So what matters Jor el, that the mistake happened at all or that it was resolved?

Do you as the parent have the right to ask questions and make mistakes?

In America we have a system in place to allow for mistakes and to ask questions. Its not perfect but we muddle through.

IMO you are beating a dead horse here.

[Doug1029]

It was once the land of the free, now, not so much...

How true. Here in Oklahoma, we have the highest incarceration rate for women IN THE WORLD. No state or nation imprisons a higher proportion of its women than we do. Something isn't working in "the reddest of the red states."

Doug

[Sensible Logic]

I am curious why people want so badly to ignore the truth. If this was a meeting of people who got together to read Richard Dawkins books every week. You can bet that people would suddenly see the harassment. Then it would be clear. But since most people hate Christians, then we're just whining.

In the U.S. if most people hate Christians, with 78% of the people declaring themselves to be Christian, then there must be an awful lot of self loathing going on.

If it were just friends getting together they wouldn't have done so much expansion and added a parking lot. Homes don't need parking lots but businesses and organizations do and are treated like businesses or organizations. Weave baskets in your home by yourself or with the help of family and it's a craft. Expand your home and put in a parking lot so 20 people can work on baskets and it's a business. It's not harassment or discrimination.

[Beckys_Mom]

In the U.S. if most people hate Christians, with 78% of the people declaring themselves to be Christian, then there must be an awful lot of self loathing going on.

Now that is a perfect answer to all of those out there that complain people hate Christians over a disagreement. I must remember to use that one lol

[Cassea]

In the U.S. if most people hate Christians, with 78% of the people declaring themselves to be Christian, then there must be an awful lot of self loathing going on.

If it were just friends getting together they wouldn't have done so much expansion and added a parking lot. Homes don't need parking lots but businesses and organizations do and are treated like businesses or organizations. Weave baskets in your home by yourself or with the help of family and it's a craft. Expand your home and put in a parking lot so 20 people can work on baskets and it's a business. It's not harassment or discrimination.

What a nonsensical statistic. I think it is not smart to just snatch up random statistics and parade them around like a banner of evidence. When you have not even take the time to examine the actual poll. Since I know full well they did not interview the entire country, it is not accurate. Also many of these polls ask what religion you would most closely associate with. The options being Judaism, Islam, Buddhism, Christianity, Paganism or None of the above. Those who were raised Christian but fell away. Will often choose Christianity. I've been told by college professors many times that when someone mentions a statistic, to follow it blindly is very stupid. Always make sure you know the particulars.

In my experience ex Christians are often very angry and nasty towards Christians. I guess they feel more vicious because of their own personal issues. Many times I see ex Christians making excuses for Islam and other religions in a way that they would never do for Christians. When someone is very angry towards my beliefs, I can pretty much bet. That they are an ex Christian.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Cassea

[aquatus1]

Cassea, dismissing a report based on little more than the assumption that it is meaningless has little effect on the actual validity of the report. If you want to claim it is meaningless, you have to show precisely why it is meaningless.

Additionally, repeating an argument does not, in any way, make it more supported or valid.

[Cybele]

What a nonsensical statistic. I think it is not smart to just snatch up random statistics and parade them around like a banner of evidence. When you have not even take the time to examine the actual poll. Since I know full well they did not interview the entire country, it is not accurate.

You should probably read up on statistics.

Inferential statistics uses patterns in the sample data to draw inferences about the population represented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statistics

Edited February 29, 2012 by Cybele

[ambelamba]

Maybe Cassea should have said that facts are overrated.

[aquatus1]

Well, let's not go too far in the opposite direction, people. Unless I missed it, we never actually got a source for that statistic, so for all we know it got pulled out of thin air (or other darker recesses ). We cannot consider it a fact without knowing the source, and even knowing the source and verifying it's credibility still means it is a statistic, nothing more, but certainly nothing less.

Too many people try and make decisions black and white, positive or negative, either with us or against us. It isn't always an If_Then formula. Credibility isn't something you have or don't have. It is the level of credibility that something has which is important.

[eight bits]

Probably here:

http://religions.pewforum.org/reports

Pew is reasonably good for ballpark estimation, and is frequently cited in the media.

[Tata Rompe Pecho]

I have to say, after reading all 23 pages of this thread I have lost a part of my life I will never reclaim reading absolute GARGABE.

The couple in question specifically built a church in there home, church seating, pulpit, and with a parking area and then cried when they were told its ok to be a church but need permits to do so. This is not discrimination this is a business operating in a residential area. Doesnt matter if theyre non-profit, doesnt matter if theyre christian, mormon, muslim, even cat eating jedi nobody gives 3 craps. NOBODY is above the law. You build a business next to peoples homes WITHOUT permits to do so, you get fined for it.

And before I hear this bs "oh it was bible study, not church" bible studies dont require you building a church in your home. But guess what does? Church gatherings! Now why would people p*** money out there rear to build a church they wouldnt need for bible study? Oh cause they wanted to be a church in a residential area, but not pay the fees/permits of being a church.

Im tired of people saying christians are the most hated faith. Name the last person you knew of going to jail for practicing christianity... Now count off how many christian presidents youve had...

http://blogs.miaminewtimes.com/riptide/2011/02/santeria_priest_calls_richard.php

Yes thats right, my faith had to fight in the supreme court because christianity labeled us satan worshippers and said we abuse animals, because we still believe in animal sacrifice. Even after fighting in supreme court to be able to freely practice our faith we still constantly get harassed by the law and are constantly being arrested for bs charge after bs charge cause the christian officer doesnt like what we do, afterall we are satan worshippers right?

Im sure even were not the most hated, just showing you that your bs whining is annoying already. Others suffer more at your faiths will and you dont see us crying about it.

Kudo February 6, 2010 at 10:11 pm #

Yes My EIN # 30-0602348 issued by the IRS . I am working with the State Attornys office in hopes to start removing some of the animals

[Volatile32]

I was going to mention that as well. It's not as if this was a tiny house in a poor crowded neighborhood. There's no reason the neighbor's should have even heard anything.

I was wondering when someone was going to post a map of the area. I wonder if the neighbors with the tennis court get fines for weekly doubles tennis? 3 or more people after all.