Abortion and medical ethics

[+HerNibs]

"seem" is not an accurate assessment. How many? I find it hard to believe that most abortions occur prior to 8 weeks consider most women don't know they are pregnant very soon. Most women are at least a months pregnant when they have an abortion. Taking the morning after pill is getting rid of a clump of cells. Aborting a fetus after 8 weeks is killing a fetus, not sloughing off cells.

I posted statistics from a reliable source as to when the majority of abortions are done.

The first time I was pregnant I didn't know until almost 6 months. My body gave no indications. There is no "magic feeling" or sign that is a sure indicator of pregnancy.

The "morning after pill" prevents pregnancy, it doesn't "flush" anything.

Mifepristone terminates an early pregnancy.

Mifepristone is used alone or in combination with misoprostol (Cytotec) to end an early pregnancy. Early pregnancy means it has been 49 days or less since your last menstrual period began. Mifepristone is in a class of medications called antiprogestational steroids. It works by blocking the activity of progesterone, a substance your body makes to help continue pregnancy.

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[+HerNibs]

But you are making dishonest statements. You are saying Partial Birth is banned. I just looked it up and it's not banned everywhere. You stated that the abortion was "just a pile of cells" which is also not true. A fetus is not a clump of cells. You've stated that you have a biology background. On a test if they showed you a "fetus" and you called it "a clump of cells" then you'd be wrong.

Others have stated that the fetus isn't viable. Which is also not honest. Most fetuses are viable. They are being aborted for convenience. And most fetuses are killed between 8-16 weeks. Saying that "it seems" like prior to 8 weeks is dishonest. Saying that a fetus is a "pile of cells" is also dishonest. So why the need to word it dishonestly if you don't think there is any thing wrong with it? If I kill a puppy and I tell someone I was "putting it out of it's misery." It's a way of making it seem like I did a good thing instead of bad thing. If I say I "terminated a non viable pile of cells" it's the same thing.

I think you're confusing the statements of different posters.

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[Cassea]

I agree. But if you are having the "fetus" removed. They are not removing a nonviable pile of cells. They are killing a fetus. I'm ok with people using pills to prevent implantation. But in reality once you are going to have an abortion, you are killing something. I don't know why people can't be honest about it. The way you stop the pregnancy is by killing the fetus. Why pretend otherwise?

[FurthurBB]

But you are making dishonest statements. You are saying Partial Birth is banned. I just looked it up and it's not banned everywhere. You stated that the abortion was "just a pile of cells" which is also not true. A fetus is not a clump of cells. You've stated that you have a biology background. On a test if they showed you a "fetus" and you called it "a clump of cells" then you'd be wrong.

Others have stated that the fetus isn't viable. Which is also not honest. Most fetuses are viable. They are being aborted for convenience. And most fetuses are killed between 8-16 weeks. Saying that "it seems" like prior to 8 weeks is dishonest. Saying that a fetus is a "pile of cells" is also dishonest. So why the need to word it dishonestly if you don't think there is any thing wrong with it? If I kill a puppy and I tell someone I was "putting it out of it's misery." It's a way of making it seem like I did a good thing instead of bad thing. If I say I "terminated a non viable pile of cells" it's the same thing.

I never said anything about a pile of cells, you keep saying that. I never said anything about partial birth abortion at all. I only said in my state you can only have an abortion to the 14 & 1/2 week. All I ever said is I would not call a fetus a baby, and if on a test they showed me a fetus and I said it was a baby, I would also get that wrong. No, the statistics that were posted by another poster said that 68% of abortions in the US are performed before or at 8 weeks. I said seem, because I do not know how reliable those statics are and didn't go and look at them. I did not say anything dishonestly. Why do you need to be dishonest to try and make posters who do not agree with you look dishonest if you think you are right? Seems suspicious.

[preacherman76]

I think I would vomit if I let the nonsense come out of me that is coming out of you. I do not need any man to tell me at which point life has value. I am a woman and one of those people who has enough education to evaluate the evidence. You want people to listen to your emotion driven, irrational nonsense and hope that guilts them into agreeing with your stance. I am not interested in that childish game. Also, I have witnessed you playing it, I do not think you are.

What evidence??? What the heck are you talking about????? There is a head, body, a heart beat, arms, legs, fingers, toes. There are people that are born with less evidence of being human. You have educated yourself right into ignorance.

[FurthurBB]

What evidence??? What the heck are you talking about????? There is a head, body, a heart beat, arms, legs, fingers, toes. There are people that are born with less evidence of being human. You have educated yourself right into ignorance.

Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.

[Cassea]

Most abortions in the US are done in the first 16 weeks by suction. There is no cutting involved. There is also no baby involved.

You engaged in dialogue with me about my objection to the use of the phrase "pile of cells." Now you are backing away from that. I'm glad at least you are realizing.

[FurthurBB]

You engaged in dialogue with me about my objection to the use of the phrase "pile of cells." Now you are backing away from that. I'm glad at least you are realizing.

No you said baby and cutting, and I said not a baby and no cutting. I am not realizing anything other than people who are pro-life engage in dishonest tactics. Why is that?

[preacherman76]

Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.

Again what ever gets you through the night.

[FurthurBB]

Again what ever gets you through the night.

Again, I do not need help to get through the night. If the ignorant think I have educated myself into ignorance, I must have done something right.

[preacherman76]

How have I been dishonest?

You are the one lieing to yourself.

[preacherman76]

Again, I do not need help to get through the night. If the ignorant think I have educated myself into ignorance, I must have done something right.

Yea, to bad your line of thinking is responcible for more death in our modern day then anything by FAR. Thank God we have you smart folk to show us the light.

[+HerNibs]

I agree. But if you are having the "fetus" removed. They are not removing a nonviable pile of cells. They are killing a fetus. I'm ok with people using pills to prevent implantation. But in reality once you are going to have an abortion, you are killing something. I don't know why people can't be honest about it. The way you stop the pregnancy is by killing the fetus. Why pretend otherwise?

I'm perfectly aware of what is happening in an abortion.

You can say "killing" as many times as you want but it still isn't totally accurate. You keep rephrasing what posters are actually saying in order to illicit maximum emotional impact.

In the US, partial birth and late term abortions are illegal.

If they are still being done then the individuals doing them should be charged under the law.

The majority of abortions in the US are done in the first 8 weeks of conception.

In 2008, most (62.8%) abortions were performed at ≤8 weeks' gestation, and 91.4% were performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation. Few abortions (7.3%) were performed at 14--20 weeks' gestation, and even fewer (1.3%) were performed at ≥21 weeks' gestation. During 1999--2008, the percentage of abortions performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation remained stable, whereas abortions performed at ≥16 weeks' gestation decreased 13%--17%. Moreover, among the abortions performed at ≤13 weeks' gestation, the distribution shifted toward earlier gestational ages, with the percentage of abortions performed at ≤6 weeks' gestation increasing 53%.

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*Edit to fix spelling

Edited February 28, 2012 by HerNibs

[ninjadude]

Ok, how does a heart beat suit you ninja? Can it be a human now??

clumps of cells pulsing. Big deal.

[ninjadude]

What evidence??? What the heck are you talking about????? There is a head, body, a heart beat, arms, legs, fingers, toes. There are people that are born with less evidence of being human. You have educated yourself right into ignorance.

again not really evidence of a human being.

[Beckys_Mom]

clumps of cells pulsing. Big deal.

It is to the female who miscarries in early stages Oh its a big deal alight..

[ninjadude]

They are killing a fetus. But in reality once you are going to have an abortion, you are killing something. I don't know why people can't be honest about it. The way you stop the pregnancy is by killing the fetus. Why pretend otherwise?

I don't believe anyone is. What's your point? We kill lots of things.

[ninjadude]

What do you think about this paper? I really think it was written by some crazy pro-lifer who thought he was being clever. British journals never fail to amaze me with the crap they will accept.

Honestly, I think this paper is sarcasm. Much like the vasectomy provision in the vaginal ultrasound nonsense. I think the authors were trying to bring about pro-life reactions by people who have trouble with reading comprehension and can't see what they are doing. In fact, I'm surprised this didn't come from Fox news.

[preacherman76]

clumps of cells pulsing. Big deal.

Youd think it was a big deal if it was YOUR pulsing clump of cells. Bet your ass you would.

[preacherman76]

again not really evidence of a human being.

What would you consider evidence?

[preacherman76]

It is to the female who miscarries in early stages Oh its a big deal alight..

Well said BM. And why is this so? Cause it is engrained in a women to keep alive and protect a child. Her instincts tell her that her child is alive inside her.

Ive councled several women who have had abortions. Ive never met one women who didnt suffer for having a abortion.

[Copasetic]

Well said BM. And why is this so? Cause it is engrained in a women to keep alive and protect a child. Her instincts tell her that her child is alive inside her.

Ive councled several women who have had abortions. Ive never met one women who didnt suffer for having a abortion.

P-man, Did you bother to read the article? Just curious, since you are very active on the topic, but I suspect you don't have access to BMJ articles.

[Beckys_Mom]

Well said BM. And why is this so? Cause it is engrained in a women to keep alive and protect a child. Her instincts tell her that her child is alive inside her.

Ive councled several women who have had abortions. Ive never met one women who didnt suffer for having a abortion.

Because when they have their hearts set on being a mother, get all excited to learn they are pregnant ( usually after 4 weeks or more).. Then when they loose it, it can tear them up... I have had a few early ones and a very late one.. I know the deal..

I used to be ignorant to it all.. I was well known to show ignorance towards woman who miscarry and I said - What's the big deal> Its not as if they became attached or anything? Until a woman told me, if it ever happens to you, ....you will soon know..

Karma bit my behind and I learned the hard way... I guess when you experience it for yourself, you sure get you eyes firmly opened..

[Cassea]

I'm perfectly aware of what is happening in an abortion.

You can say "killing" as many times as you want but it still isn't totally accurate. You keep rephrasing what posters are actually saying in order to illicit maximum emotional impact.

In the US, partial birth and late term abortions are illegal.

If they are still being done then the individuals doing them should be charged under the law.

The majority of abortions in the US are done in the first 8 weeks of conception.

You are killing a fetus. If people think there is nothing wrong with it why the diversionary tactics to make it sound less than it really is.

The object is a fetus. It is alive. And you are killing it to terminate the pregnancy.

Definition of KILL

transitive verb

1

a : to deprive of life : cause the death of

b (1) : to slaughter (as a hog) for food (2) : to convert a food animal into (a kind of meat) by slaughtering

2

a : to put an end to <kill competition>

b : defeat, veto <killed the amendment>

c : to mark for omission; also : delete

d : annihilate, destroy <kill an enemy>

I can understand objecting to the term "baby." Although in late stage pregnancies if the child comes out of the mother. It is considered a baby. If the mother has premature labor they don't soothe her saying "Don't worry it's just a pile of cells" They do everything to save the baby.

From 8-16 weeks it is a fetus. When you have an abortion in that time period you are killing a fetus. There's no other way to say it. Why hide from and twist the truth. That's what is really happening.

Edited February 28, 2012 by Cassea

[+HerNibs]

You are killing a fetus. If people think there is nothing wrong with it why the diversionary tactics to make it sound less than it really is.

I don't use diversionary tactics.

The object is a fetus. It is alive. And you are killing it to terminate the pregnancy.

Ok, fine, lets do it this way. In terminating a non-viable fetus, the fetus will die.

I can understand objecting to the term "baby." Although in late stage pregnancies if the child comes out of the mother. It is considered a baby. If the mother has premature labor they don't soothe her saying "Don't worry it's just a pile of cells" They do everything to save the baby.

Here is the jump you're making. I already stated that I believe a late term abortion is wrong and that the are illegal. "Baby" in your context is viable. I'm not (nor are most the other posters) discussing viable babies.

From 8-16 weeks it is a fetus. When you have an abortion in that time period you are killing a fetus. There's no other way to say it. Why hide from and twist the truth. That's what is really happening.

Never said anything differently. My objection is to how you are using the term "killing" to get an emotional response.

Nibs