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preacherman76

Abortion and medical ethics

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FurthurBB

Yes it is a baby and it is not just an opinion.. It is a baby in developement Still living, heart beating, kicking baby... I know I hapen to be pregnant at the min and felt it kick around 16 weeks myself.. So YES it is a baby..

I don't agree and I have had three children. So, no matter how many times you say that, we will not agree.

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Cassea

No, it isn't "killing a baby". It is terminating a non-viable fetus.

NOW - like I said, I am pro-choice but I am even more pro-education.

I would hope that someday abortion isn't even a debatable topic because contraception is so widely used and understood that "abortion" is just something that is considered in life and death situations.

But until that point, I have to go with being pro-choice.

Nibs

It is not terminating a non-viable fetus. It is terminating a viable fetus. In some cases it may be terminating a non viable fetus. But this is not usually true. Usually there is nothing wrong with the fetus. It is just inconvenient.

What I object to is the way the poster stated that the fetus is a "pile of cells."

this is a pile of cells

http://www.google.com/imgres?um=1&hl=en&sa=N&rlz=1C1_____enUS439US439&biw=1241&bih=577&tbm=isch&tbnid=T1WS73ZjrzMF6M:&imgrefurl=http://www.123rf.com/photo_11024064_red-blood-cell-pile.html&docid=PI7BegTqWrGirM&imgurl=http://us.123rf.com/400wm/400/400/hooyahca/hooyahca1110/hooyahca111000014/11024064-red-blood-cell-pile.jpg&w=400&h=300&ei=sC5NT8GmBuLs0gHrj9niAg&zoom=1&iact=rc&dur=530&sig=111673050971323909907&page=1&tbnh=120&tbnw=160&start=0&ndsp=21&ved=1t:429,r:6,s:0&tx=63&ty=62

By characterizing a fetus as a "pile of cells" we are dehumanizing it to justify it's killing. This is a very common thing to do. I am saying, if you have no problem with abortion. Then stop trying to white wash it. You are killing a baby and/or killing a fetus. You are killing something. You are not simply "removing a pile of cells."

Why the dishonesty?

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FurthurBB

I think it is wishful thinking to say a baby can't feel anything. It's the same justification for eating lobster boiled alive. "it can't feel it." If you are willing to kill it, at least acknowledge the truth. You are killing a baby.

This is the fetus at 8 weeks.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthpicturegalleries/6255474/A-Child-is-Born-Photographs-of-the-foetus-developing-in-the-womb-by-Lennart-Nilsson.html?image=1

I would not characterize this as a "pile of cells" I would call it a fetus. By suggesting that it is a "pile of cells" you are dehumanizing it to make it more justifiable. It's not a pile of cells. Not at all. It's a fetus.

Of course it is a fetus. I am not going to say it is a baby because it is not.

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preacherman76

Whatever makes you feel self righteous, I do not need help getting through the night. I had one sort of abortion at a Catholic hospital and though the whole experience was traumatizing, the end was actually the least traumatic. When I say that to people my husband always says, it wasn't really an abortion and I guess technically he is right. It was more like completing a miscarriage that wouldn't complete on its own and all they gave me was a drug to dilate my cervix. Either way I would not have felt bad about it.

It isnt self rightious to point out that a child at 8 weeks old is in fact a developing human.

If you were having a miscarrage, then thats different. That isnt a abortion.

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FurthurBB

Believe what you want. I didnt say anything that isnt 100% documented fact. But then, Im talking to someone who justifies the shed blood of the most innocent among us. It must take some serious twisted understanding to reach that conclution.

I think you are the one that is twisted. Also, the most innocent among us are children. I would never justify the killing of children. So, you can keep trying to sell your cheap knock offs, only the choir is again buying them.

No, it isn't "killing a baby". It is terminating a non-viable fetus.

NOW - like I said, I am pro-choice but I am even more pro-education.

I would hope that someday abortion isn't even a debatable topic because contraception is so widely used and understood that "abortion" is just something that is considered in life and death situations.

But until that point, I have to go with being pro-choice.

Nibs

I completely agree with this.

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preacherman76

A fetus IS a baby, in development. Again, I count 10 fingers and 10 toes. That is a human.

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preacherman76

I think you are the one that is twisted. Also, the most innocent among us are children. I would never justify the killing of children. So, you can keep trying to sell your cheap knock offs, only the choir is again buying them.

Agreed. The most innocent among us are children. Somehow your twisted mind, brain washed, cant recognize some of them, even when you can litteraly count the fingers. I dont care who "buys" it. If there is justice in the afterlife, I hope you are treated with more mercy then you have afforded them.

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FurthurBB

It isnt self rightious to point out that a child at 8 weeks old is in fact a developing human.

If you were having a miscarrage, then thats different. That isnt a abortion.

Well, the doctors at the catholic hospital felt the need to cover up what they did. They said they gave me the drugs in preparation for a D&C because I HAD miscarried. The truth is that the fetus had been in the birth canal still alive for a week and 1/2 and I was bleeding through four pads an hour and had to have a blood transfusion. I went back to the hospital three times and on the third time, when nothing had changed, three doctors and two nurses decided they were going to give me a drug to dilate my cervix, lie about it, and hope that would put an end to it. Luckily it did, because what would they have done if it didn't? The one doctor told me they probably would have gone ahead with the D&C because they were afraid I would die if they let me leave the hospital again.

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FurthurBB

A fetus IS a baby, in development. Again, I count 10 fingers and 10 toes. That is a human.

Again, I am not going to agree and your definition does not fit with anything I was taught in my extensive education in biology.

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FurthurBB

Agreed. The most innocent among us are children. Somehow your twisted mind, brain washed, cant recognize some of them, even when you can litteraly count the fingers. I dont care who "buys" it. If there is justice in the afterlife, I hope you are treated with more mercy then you have afforded them.

LOL! You are just ridiculous!

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preacherman76

I don't agree and I have had three children. So, no matter how many times you say that, we will not agree.

It isnt about agreement. You are just wrong. Whats sad is you couldnt possibly consider otherwise, cause that would mean that you supported a river of shed blood. I understand why you wouldnt, couldnt, face that truth.

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HerNibs

It is not terminating a non-viable fetus. It is terminating a viable fetus. In some cases it may be terminating a non viable fetus. But this is not usually true. Usually there is nothing wrong with the fetus. It is just inconvenient.

In the majority of abortions it is terminating a non-viable fetus.

Viability

Here are some statistics on why women have abortions.

Ok.

By characterizing a fetus as a "pile of cells" we are dehumanizing it to justify it's killing. This is a very common thing to do. I am saying, if you have no problem with abortion. Then stop trying to white wash it. You are killing a baby and/or killing a fetus. You are killing something. You are not simply "removing a pile of cells."

Why the dishonesty?

I'm not being dishonest in the least. I know what is being terminated.

Every time I exfoliate I am removing living cells from my body. I know the difference.

I'm not white washing anything. I could say that using the term "killing a baby" is dishonest and is a term used to emotionally target a discussion.

Nibs

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FurthurBB

It isnt about agreement. You are just wrong. Whats sad is you couldnt possibly consider otherwise, cause that would mean that you supported a river of shed blood. I understand why you wouldnt, couldnt, face that truth.

Truth is subjective and I have more evidence on my side. Now, I am done playing your childish game.

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Cassea

But it's not a "pile of cells." I've respectfully asked you a question about that. You've ignored it to argue with preacherman. Why do you refer to a fetus as a "pile of cells" instead of a fetus. I mean isn't that the biological name for a fetus? A fetus is a fetus.

fe·tus/ˈfētəs/

Noun:

An unborn or unhatched offspring of a mammal, in particular an unborn human baby more than eight weeks after conception.

So between 8-16 weeks is when most abortions occur. It isn't a "pile of cells" at this point. It is a fetus. It is alive and being killed. If you don't think anything is wrong with it. Then why the collusion? Why not call it what it is. Instead of trying to make it seem "less alive" and "less human." It seems dishonest to me.

So does equating killing a fetus to scraping skin cells off your body.

Edited by Cassea

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FurthurBB

But it's not a "pile of cells." I've respectfully asked you a question about that. You've ignored it to argue with preacherman. Why do you refer to a fetus as a "pile of cells" instead of a fetus. I mean isn't that the biological name for a fetus? A fetus is a fetus.

So between 8-16 weeks is when most abortions occur. It isn't a "pile of cells" at this point. It is a fetus. It is alive and being killed. If you don't think anything is wrong with it. Then why the collusion? Why not call it what it is. Instead of trying to make it seem "less alive" and "less human." It seems dishonest to me.

Most abortions in the US actually seem to occur before 8 weeks.

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ninjadude

A fetus IS a baby, in development. Again, I count 10 fingers and 10 toes. That is a human.

You have a pretty low bar for "human". Fingers and toes has nothing to do with it. A fetus is NOT a baby.

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Cassea

Most abortions in the US actually seem to occur before 8 weeks.

"seem" is not an accurate assessment. How many? I find it hard to believe that most abortions occur prior to 8 weeks consider most women don't know they are pregnant very soon. Most women are at least a months pregnant when they have an abortion. Taking the morning after pill is getting rid of a clump of cells. Aborting a fetus after 8 weeks is killing a fetus, not sloughing off cells.

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FurthurBB

You have a pretty low bar for "human". Fingers and toes has nothing to do with it. A fetus is NOT a baby.

What do you think about this paper? I really think it was written by some crazy pro-lifer who thought he was being clever. British journals never fail to amaze me with the crap they will accept.

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HerNibs

But it's not a "pile of cells." I've respectfully asked you a question about that. You've ignored it to argue with preacherman. Why do you refer to a fetus as a "pile of cells" instead of a fetus. I mean isn't that the biological name for a fetus? A fetus is a fetus.

So between 8-16 weeks is when most abortions occur. It isn't a "pile of cells" at this point. It is a fetus. It is alive and being killed. If you don't think anything is wrong with it. Then why the collusion? Why not call it what it is. Instead of trying to make it seem "less alive" and "less human." It seems dishonest to me.

So does equating killing a fetus to scraping skin cells off your body.

I'll reply to the point I think is directed towards me...

I didn't say it's the same thing did I? I stated - quite clearly

I'm not being dishonest in the least. I know what is being terminated.

Every time I exfoliate I am removing living cells from my body. I know the difference.

I believe that using "killing a baby" is an inaccurate statement as that is what is happening in an abortion. It is terminating a non-viable fetus.

No dishonestly anywhere in my statements.

Nibs

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Helen of Annoy

Eeeevery speeeerm is saaaacreeeed, every sperm is fiiiineee... *thump, thump, thump*

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preacherman76

Truth is subjective and I have more evidence on my side. Now, I am done playing your childish game.

You have no evidence other then the opinon of men at which point life has value. Science says a fetus is a developing human being. I dont know what game you think Im playing. The fact I even have to have this conversation makes me want to puke.

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FurthurBB

"seem" is not an accurate assessment. How many? I find it hard to believe that most abortions occur prior to 8 weeks consider most women don't know they are pregnant very soon. Most women are at least a months pregnant when they have an abortion. Taking the morning after pill is getting rid of a clump of cells. Aborting a fetus after 8 weeks is killing a fetus, not sloughing off cells.

Well, I never disagreed, why do you keep repeating that? I do not even think the poster that originally said it is still posting here. Well, I said seem because that is what the statistics say that were posted here, though I did not go to look at them and they are from wiki. I think actually before it implants it is only a single embryo.

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preacherman76

You have a pretty low bar for "human". Fingers and toes has nothing to do with it. A fetus is NOT a baby.

Ok, how does a heart beat suit you ninja? Can it be a human now?? :rolleyes:

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FurthurBB

You have no evidence other then the opinon of men at which point life has value. Science says a fetus is a developing human being. I dont know what game you think Im playing. The fact I even have to have this conversation makes me want to puke.

I think I would vomit if I let the nonsense come out of me that is coming out of you. I do not need any man to tell me at which point life has value. I am a woman and one of those people who has enough education to evaluate the evidence. You want people to listen to your emotion driven, irrational nonsense and hope that guilts them into agreeing with your stance. I am not interested in that childish game. Also, I have witnessed you playing it, I do not think you are.

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Cassea

But you are making dishonest statements. You are saying Partial Birth is banned. I just looked it up and it's not banned everywhere. You stated that the abortion was "just a pile of cells" which is also not true. A fetus is not a clump of cells. You've stated that you have a biology background. On a test if they showed you a "fetus" and you called it "a clump of cells" then you'd be wrong.

Others have stated that the fetus isn't viable. Which is also not honest. Most fetuses are viable. They are being aborted for convenience. And most fetuses are killed between 8-16 weeks. Saying that "it seems" like prior to 8 weeks is dishonest. Saying that a fetus is a "pile of cells" is also dishonest. So why the need to word it dishonestly if you don't think there is any thing wrong with it? If I kill a puppy and I tell someone I was "putting it out of it's misery." It's a way of making it seem like I did a good thing instead of bad thing. If I say I "terminated a non viable pile of cells" it's the same thing.

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