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Still Waters

'Sexist trousers' are below the belt

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Leonardo

You are wrong on all counts above, especially in your illogical attempt to link freedom of speech and breaking other laws.

It's not against the law in ANY US state to speak racially aggravating language.

It is also not relevant to this discussion about a label in jeans claiming that laundry is "women's work."

If you can provide any evidence for your claims above, please do so.

My apologies, I was wrong. I had assumed that racist language was covered by the same legislation that covers obscene and 'fighting' language, but it appears it does not. I am left to wonder why, as racist or sexist (or other 'ist') language is just as, if not more, detrimental to individuals and society than the offensive language which is not protected by 'freedom of speech', but perhaps that is something peculiarly American?

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Lilly

Law enforcement gets around the freedom of speech issue because generally when people start screaming racial slurs (like the "N" word and such) other people get extremely upset. Situations like this quickly evolve into 'hate speech' and cause civil unrest (ie, inciting a riot). So, a person isn't actually arrested for saying the racial slur per say, but rather for using hate speech and inciting civil unrest. One can also face charges for violating the civil rights of others.

Aside from anything legal, the position of being a sexist, racist, bigot is actually not as socially accepted as it once was. Where many will see humour in such, far more will not.

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Neognosis
Never mind..

I learned years ago when someone is not worth my time.

Maybe that's why you don't make as much money... you give up too easily.

HAHAHAHA!

haven't said a word about the pants. But, when some ignoramus claims that women aren't discriminated against in the workplace I have to speak out, because I know or a fact they are. I also know that no amount of evidence is going to convince narrow-minded people that have a blind eye towards it.

Why don't you try posting some evidence then?

I won't deny that in some places some women don't make the same money as some men. And I have experienced the reverse as well. You have laws under which you can being legal action for your protection. Yet you are nearly LITERALLY crying over a label in a pair of jeans. What would you like to do about this label? Seriously, what's your proposed course of action about the jeans and the label?

My suggestion is that you don't buy them and don't keep bringing them up.

M

y apologies, I was wrong. I had assumed that racist language was covered by the same legislation that covers obscene and 'fighting' language, but it appears it does not. I am left to wonder why, as racist or sexist (or other 'ist') language is just as, if not more, detrimental to individuals and society than the offensive language which is not protected by 'freedom of speech', but perhaps that is something peculiarly American?

1- I appreciate your willingness to admit that you made a mistake. I greatly respect that and I try to act the same when I have made a mistake. That shows great character and I admire that.

Racist and sexist language MAY INDEED BE detrimental to individuals and society, but the suppression of free speech is far more detrimental to AMERICAN society as a whole. It is peculiarly American. We believe, and all our laws reflect this, that certain freedoms are the foundation for our entire society, and when those are curtailed for the protection of a few, it is more detrimental to the base of our society.

Law enforcement gets around the freedom of speech issue because generally when people start screaming racial slurs (like the "N" word and such) other people get extremely upset. Situations like this quickly evolve into 'hate speech' and cause civil unrest (ie, inciting a riot). So, a person isn't actually arrested for saying the racial slur per say, but rather for using hate speech and inciting civil unrest.

You are wrong again. Hate speech is protected. It's inciting a riot or disturbing the peace without a permit that is against the law.

I can get a permit to hold a rally in which I get up and say that Orange people are a bunch of sick, child molesting b******* who should be sent packing back to their home country of Oranglandia by force if necessary... and there is nothing you can do about it, UNTIL the people listening to me start breaking stuff or become a threat.

I don't even know if these jeans are available in the US. What I DO Know is that the label would be, without question, protected speech in the US.

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Leonardo

You are wrong again. Hate speech is protected. It's inciting a riot or disturbing the peace without a permit that is against the law.

I can get a permit to hold a rally in which I get up and say that Orange people are a bunch of sick, child molesting b******* who should be sent packing back to their home country of Oranglandia by force if necessary... and there is nothing you can do about it, UNTIL the people listening to me start breaking stuff or become a threat.

You might find yourself in trouble if you decided to speak in public, rhetoric such as you describe.

From what I have read, it may be covered under the 'fighting words' exception set out in Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942) where the Supreme Court ruled...

"fighting words ... which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace," are not protected. This decision was based on the fact that fighting words are of "slight social value as a step to truth."

source

It is not the case that someone needs take action for a transgression to occur, simply uttering the 'fighting words' is enough to break the law.

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Lilly

You are wrong again. Hate speech is protected. It's inciting a riot or disturbing the peace without a permit that is against the law.

That's exactly what I said...it's not the verbalization itself that's illegal but the resulting civil unrest that's illegal.

But hey, I'm only one of those stupid women who really should be washing jeans, baking a pie, and fetching a cold beer. :rolleyes:

Edited by Lilly
left out a word

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Michelle

Maybe that's why you don't make as much money... you give up too easily.

HAHAHAHA!

I don't have a cap on what I make...I'm vice-president of the company my husband and I have owned for twenty-five years. I also have 100% success rate on collections from even the biggest deadbeat companies or individuals without resorting to taking them to court. So really, I'm not worried about what some nameless, faceless person on the internet thinks and I'm not going to waste too much time on them.

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Parsip

It's a bit amusing, but not that funny. I don't know why people are going crazy over it, but women do tend to be a tad too emotional. There's a lot of anti-male stuff in commercials or sitcoms/movies (husband is stupid idiot, wife is beautiful and intelligent), and no one complains about it.

Edited by Parsip

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Lilly

There's a lot of anti-male stuff in commercials or sitcoms/movies (husband is stupid idiot, wife is beautiful and intelligent), and no one complains about it.

I think that's obnoxious as well. However, sitcoms aren't really known for being at all serious and/or reflective of reality.

Basically, I don't like it when anyone puts down another person due to their gender, race, or religion.

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Parsip

Me neither, but it's not putting anyone down; it's a joke! If you don't know the person who made it, you can't know what their intentions were, and in 21st century USA there is at least an 80% chance that it was intended to be funny, not to disparage women.

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Neognosis
think that's obnoxious as well. However, sitcoms aren't really known for being at all serious and/or reflective of reality.

Right, unlike the label in a pair of MEN'S JEANS.

Which, as we all know, have a thousand times mnore power to shape societal attitudes than popular television...

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rashore

It's a bit amusing, but not that funny. I don't know why people are going crazy over it, but women do tend to be a tad too emotional. There's a lot of anti-male stuff in commercials or sitcoms/movies (husband is stupid idiot, wife is beautiful and intelligent), and no one complains about it.

I gotta say... I loathe stupid man commercials and shows... I won't watch the shows, and I mute the ads when they come on.

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Lilly

The discussion sort of progressed from being just about the jeans though.

In the final analysis people are going to think whatever they choose about others. Bigotry in all it's forms will most likely continue into the 21st century and beyond.

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Sakari

Back to the tag.......

It is a tag in a pair of jeans, a tag almost no one reads, except the person washing them.( most likely the wife, or the mom of the person wearing them ).

Without re-hashng this entire thread about bigots, women being equal, etc....

I want to know what the big deal is about a stupid tag that is hidden under the waistband of the person wearing them?....

A tag, not a bill board.........A little one by one inch tag that can not be seen, and by luck and chance, was seen.Other wise this would not even be a discussion.........

Is it just a excuse to b**** about something?......I can not figure out what the big deal is.I asked 9 women ( my wife and some co-workers ), 2 heard of this, and all of them laughed at it.Not one of them felt attacked, or thought it was bad........

Maybe people I know have a sense of humor, and also have better things to do than b**** about the small things in life.

I do know one thing.........

The one person at the job site whom made tags, that person is laughing his or her ass off.........:yes:

Edited by Sakari

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Leonardo

Maybe people I know have a sense of humor, and also have better things to do than b**** about the small things in life.

Or maybe people you know don't care about other's or their opinions?

And the vast majority of people b**** about the small things in life because the vast majority of people have little to no influence over the 'big things' in life. It's not your place to dictate what people are allowed to complain about.

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Sakari

Or maybe people you know don't care about other's or their opinions?

And the vast majority of people b**** about the small things in life because the vast majority of people have little to no influence over the 'big things' in life. It's not your place to dictate what people are allowed to complain about.

Not dictating, I just do not understand it is all......It was a obvious joke.......A little tag, wow.

I think the " vast " majority of people that b**** about the small things in life ( and I disagree strongly with that, at least the 2 places I have lived the vast majority would and are laughing at this, as it is a obvious joke ) have a hard time appreciating life in the first place.They are upset, hurt, feel like they deserve more without working at it, so they b**** to try to bring everyone else down to their level...

" I am hurting, so everyone else should also"

We need a plague.

Great , now we changed the topic again......

So, why a tag?....I get it if it were a billboard, or on the outside of a soda can.......But a little hidden tag?

Edited by Sakari

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Leonardo

Not dictating, I just do not understand it is all......It was a obvious joke.

We need a plague.

A joke to you, maybe, but not everyone shares the same sense of humour.

That is not to say those who do not share your sense of humour do not have a sense of humour - which is what you implied.

What do you want the plague to do, wipe out everyone who isn't like you, or thinks like you?

Edited by Leonardo

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Sakari

What do you want the plague to do, wipe out everyone who isn't like you, or thinks like you?

That is a different topic all together.....

And no, I could be one to go for all I care......Just needs to happen.

You are missing my question, look at my edited reply..........It is a tag, hidden, not on the front of a billboard, or on a beer bottle.

Strange, I am not upset, just discussing, and trying to figure out why people are upset about a obvious joke, on a little hidden tag, that only by luck was seen and read......

Yet, I am accused of thinking I am better than anyone else?.....Sounds the opposite to me.

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Leonardo

That is a different topic all together.....

It's not at all.

There are people who find the tag funny, and those who don't. Neither are wrong individually (because it is a personal matter), but why should one group of people be ridiculed/belittled/persecuted to satisfy the humour of another?

Is humour that important?

Bear in mind, the sexist remark is not made in the context of a comedic perfomance (where it would be accepted practice), but on an item of clothing.

And no, I could be one to go for all I care......Just needs to happen.

You are missing my question, look at my edited reply..........It is a tag, hidden, not on the front of a billboard, or on a beer bottle.

Strange, I am not upset, just discussing, and trying to figure out why people are upset about a obvious joke, on a little hidden tag, that only by luck was seen and read......

Yet, I am accused of thinking I am better than anyone else?.....Sounds the opposite to me.

So, sexism or racism is okay - so long as it's hidden away?

For how long will it be hidden away until it becomes passe or accepted, and so enters society in a visible way? Then, to be funny, the hidden sexism or racism has to become more vitriolic, and so the spiral continues.

Edited by Leonardo

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Sakari

It's not at all.

There are people who find the tag funny, and those who don't. Neither are wrong individually (because it is a personal matter), but why should one group of people be ridiculed/belittled/persecuted to satisfy the humour of another?

Is humour that important?

Bear in mind, the sexist remark is not made in the context of a comedic perfomance (where it would be accepted practice), but on an item of clothing.

So, sexism or racism is okay - so long as it's hidden away?

For how long will it be hidden away until it becomes passe or accepted, and so enters society in a visible way? Then, to be funny, the hidden sexism or racism has to become more vitriolic, and so the spiral continues.

This really says it well...

Let me give an example. But first, let me cover myself by issuing a disclaimer - what follows is a joke: 'A man walked into a Dublin bar and saw a friend sitting with an empty glass.

"Paddy, can I get you another?" he asked. Paddy replied, "Now, what would I be wanting with another empty glass?" '

Let me be absolutely clear; it is not a good joke. I am not saying it is. But in any sane society there would be only two possible reactions. You could laugh or, (more likely) like me, you will have emitted a small groan.

But, of course, this is no longer a sane society and so a third option presents itself - which is that you call up the police and report that a crime has been committed. Not a crime against humour. But a crime. Full stop

Read more: http://www.dailymail...l#ixzz1oeQfzRL4

And this is a 1 inch by 1 inch hidden tag........:blush:

Edited by Sakari

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Leonardo

This really says it well...

Let me give an example. But first, let me cover myself by issuing a disclaimer - what follows is a joke: 'A man walked into a Dublin bar and saw a friend sitting with an empty glass.

"Paddy, can I get you another?" he asked. Paddy replied, "Now, what would I be wanting with another empty glass?" '

Let me be absolutely clear; it is not a good joke. I am not saying it is. But in any sane society there would be only two possible reactions. You could laugh or, (more likely) like me, you will have emitted a small groan.

But, of course, this is no longer a sane society and so a third option presents itself - which is that you call up the police and report that a crime has been committed. Not a crime against humour. But a crime. Full stop

I groaned! :P

You meet an Irish person. You don't know them and this joke is the first thing you say to them. Is that appropriate?

I have argued in previous posts that jokes which might not be appropriate, or offensive, in certain situations can be told between friends (or in situations such as comedy performances) without any 'awkwardness' about the joke's content.

In the case of the trousers, made by a company with no personal knowledge of those who buy it's apparel, is making a sexist joke appropriate?

And this is a 1 inch by 1 inch hidden tag........:blush:

So, sexism is okay so long as it's hidden and small?

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Sakari

I groaned! :P

You meet an Irish person. You don't know them and this joke is the first thing you say to them. Is that appropriate?

I have argued in previous posts that jokes which might not be appropriate, or offensive, in certain situations can be told between friends (or in situations such as comedy performances) without any 'awkwardness' about the joke's content.

In the case of the trousers, made by a company with no personal knowledge of those who buy it's apparel, is making a sexist joke appropriate?

So, sexism is okay so long as it's hidden and small?

As it is hidden and small........Hmmm, I took offense to that....... ;)

And to answer your question.....

You call this certain topic sexism, I call it what is intended to be, a joke.Be it a bad one or a good one, that is all it was/is.

Edited by Sakari

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Neognosis
So, sexism or racism is okay - so long as it's hidden away?

For how long will it be hidden away until it becomes passe or accepted, and so enters society in a visible way? Then, to be funny, the hidden sexism or racism has to become more vitriolic, and so the spiral continues.

Know what? If you ignored the tag and nobody cried about it on the internet, nobody would CARE....

Now you just sound like a silly, whiny person with no actual problems to complain about.

Nobody can legally refuse to hire someone because they are a woman

Women get easier entrance requirements to many professions

You can't legally pay a woman less for the same job simply because she's a woman

Stop whining about a silly tag in a pair of jeans.

Don't buy the jeans.

OR, keep talking about it. Either way...

There's also this:

http://goodmenproject.com/dadsgood-2/huggies-even-dads-can-use-them/

Another ridiculous bit of complaining by someone who must not have heard that there's genocide going on in other places.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=3019575761858

Oh, those stupid dads!

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Sakari

Know what? If you ignored the tag and nobody cried about it on the internet, nobody would CARE....

Now you just sound like a silly, whiny person with no actual problems to complain about.

Nobody can legally refuse to hire someone because they are a woman

Women get easier entrance requirements to many professions

You can't legally pay a woman less for the same job simply because she's a woman

Stop whining about a silly tag in a pair of jeans.

Don't buy the jeans.

OR, keep talking about it. Either way...

There's also this:

http://goodmenprojec...s-can-use-them/

Another ridiculous bit of complaining by someone who must not have heard that there's genocide going on in other places.

http://www.facebook....v=3019575761858

Oh, those stupid dads!

Thanks, I was starting to wonder if I was the only one saying this( on this site )........ :yes::tu:

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S2F

I have argued in previous posts that jokes which might not be appropriate, or offensive, in certain situations can be told between friends (or in situations such as comedy performances) without any 'awkwardness' about the joke's content.

In the case of the trousers, made by a company with no personal knowledge of those who buy it's apparel, is making a sexist joke appropriate?

Hey Leo, I see what you are saying here but in my opinion this tag and it's implications would be shared between individuals with more than just a casual acquaintance. Like husband/wife or son/mother, in which case it would be a joke shared in private between people who knew each other on a personal level. In fact I think I might like to buy a pair for my wife, after she finishes beating me we could share a laugh over it. :lol:

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ZaraKitty

Yeah sure, you go to work all day and support a mortgage by yourself, you want two jobs or three? while I stay home and clean. You can't have the best of both worlds.

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