Logically does God exist?

[Halo_Jones]

Well I'm not one to get involved in discussions of this nature as I firmly believe it is up to you as an individual to make up your own mind, I still do.

BUT....... I have been asking myself this same question.

For me, I have felt that there is more to death then just a full stop, and whether this was because there is God I don't know. But I have now come to the conclusion there is No god!

WHY.....Well after the terrible disgusting acts of cruellty and violence that happened to many innocent people from the god fearing small community of Belsan, I can't believe that god would ignore their plight and let the Children suffer and die in terror!

I like probably all of you watched in horror as that week got worse and worse for the families involved. I prayed and prayed that there would be a peacefull conclusion, like most of the world.

MY POINT.........There must of been BILLIONs of people who watched this tragedy unfold and prayed or hoped for something to intervene and help those CHILDREN.

It seems to me that if god is capable of answering prayers then why did he ignore so many?

After the horriffic outcome I as many of you cried in disbelief as the stories, of what happened inside that school, from the survivours were told. My own Children started back at school that following week and I hugged them that little bit longer before they walked through their school gates.

That is why I now have no doubt there is no One being that guides and protects us, we make our own way and when we die I believe our lifeforce lives on as a mass of energy which will be used eventually to fuel another life.

This is MY opinion.

[+joc]

While I believe God answers prayers...consider the following, if I pray for rain and you pray it doesn't, who's prayer is God listening to?

I know I said I wouldn't post again, I can't help myself

[Halo_Jones]

Is there anything listening to us at all?

[Stellar]

joc: the simple matter of the fact is that, its either gonna rain, or its not, and one of the people will say "See! God answered my prayer!"

Halo: The answer is quite simple actually... God didnt help the children in Beslan because he was too busy prooving himself to other christians and answering their prayers for money, and helping people sell cars.

[saucy]

The fact is you cannot logically say God exists. You cannot logically say God does not exist. It's a statement of faith. If you do not believe in God, that's your belief and cannot be proved by any other means.

[aquatus1]

Actually, if you define God as an entity that fulfills the actions as stated in the Bible, and you can find a high number of events in which God does not fulfill those actions, couldn't you then logically state that God does not exist?

Edited September 19, 2004 by aquatus1

[Anakim]

Actually, if you define God as an entity that fulfills the actions as stated in the Bible, and you can find a high number of events in which God does not fulfill those actions, couldn't you then logically state that God does not exist?

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I dont think so because you would only be disproveing that one definition of God. He is defined in so many different ways and aspects that i think it would be extremly difficult for someone to completely disprove His existence.

[aquatus1]

I dont think so because you would only be disproveing that one definition of God. He is defined in so many different ways and aspects that i think it would be extremly difficult for someone to completely disprove His existence.

But surely, in order to state that something does exist, a clear definition is required. In other words, if said that God was a mystical orange ball in the air, and another person said that He was actually a purple cube, and yet another claimed that He was truly a green pyramid, then, lacking anything other than our personal statements to judge by, how could it be logically deduced that God does exist?

I would submit that existance logically implies definition. If no definition exists, that neither can there be existance.

[Xenojjin]

what does god gain in us knowing that he exists ? Wouldnt it be better to just let people live their lives and question things ? What fun is it if everyone already knows the answers to everything ?

[Anakim]

I dont think so because you would only be disproveing that one definition of God. He is defined in so many different ways and aspects that i think it would be extremly difficult for someone to completely disprove His existence.

But surely, in order to state that something does exist, a clear definition is required. In other words, if said that God was a mystical orange ball in the air, and another person said that He was actually a purple cube, and yet another claimed that He was truly a green pyramid, then, lacking anything other than our personal statements to judge by, how could it be logically deduced that God does exist?

I would submit that existance logically implies definition. If no definition exists, that neither can there be existance.

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I dont completely agree! This is probably true in most cases but we're talking about a suposed solestial entity. In what way would we even be able to begin to define Him.

[Stellar]

Well, if you cant define him, you cant argue whether it logically exists or doesnt. Its kind of like saying "Hey, bob... logically, does the thing exist?"

"What thing?"

"The thing!!"

[aquatus1]

I dont completely agree! This is probably true in most cases but we're talking about a suposed solestial entity. In what way would we even be able to begin to define Him.

Well, that's the point. Since our tasking in this thread is to reason out a logical case for God's existance, and we cannot even define what it is that we are trying to reason out a logical case for, then we pretty much have to conclude that we cannot reason out a logical case.

Celestial nature aside, God's existance has no more reason to defy definition than any other theoretical idea. Other Gods have been accurately defined, sometimes to excrutiating detail. Even secular theoretical ideas, such as Plato's archetypes, have a clear basis which any person could understand, regardless of background, education, or personal bias.

If the only manner in which God can exist is through personal revelation, which can be considered the ultimate in subjective evidence, and it is impossible to find a common denominator in God that everyone can agree to, then logically one would have to declare God non-existant. Something cannot exist as a million individual ideas; it can only exist as one defined base from which ideas come from.

[Xenojjin]

try this - the perfect being that created the universe . Defining him any further would be pointless . Omnipotence brings up the whole "creating a rock he cannot move" case , while omnibenevolence brings up "why is there suffering" questions .

[blazer2004]

i belive he is real i have my reasons to belive

[aquatus1]

try this - the perfect being that created the universe . Defining him any further would be pointless . Omnipotence brings up the whole "creating a rock he cannot move" case , while omnibenevolence brings up "why is there suffering" questions .

Then we are agreed that God cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be logically reasoned to exist?

i belive he is real i have my reasons to belive

The only way God can exist is through Faith, not through Logic.

[blazer2004]

try this - the perfect being that created the universe . Defining him any further would be pointless . Omnipotence brings up the whole "creating a rock he cannot move" case , while omnibenevolence brings up "why is there suffering" questions .

Then we are agreed that God cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be logically reasoned to exist?

i belive he is real i have my reasons to belive

The only way God can exist is through Faith, not through Logic.

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[blazer2004]

faith has nothing to do with god

[aquatus1]

How so? I'm not an expert in the matter, but I do seem to recall several fairly direct statements from the Bible listing Faith in God as a requirement for believers.

[Celumnaz]

"Well I guess it would be nice

If I could touch your body

I know not everybody

Has gotta body like me

But I gotta think twice

Before I give my heart away

And I know all the games you play

Because I play them too"

Sing it with me!

"Cuz I gotta have faith faith faith

Gotta have faith faith faith"

Logic cannot seem to kill God, darnit. But coupled with Science we have a fighting chance!!

Ya just gotta have faith!

[blazer2004]

just because you go to chruch and pray that dosent mean you are saved

[aquatus1]

You can be saved if you have no Faith in God whatsoever?

[Xenojjin]

Then we are agreed that God cannot be defined, and therefore cannot be logically reasoned to exist?

How is what I gave not enough to work with ? YOur basically saying that since we dont know enough about the universe to define god completely to every last detail , that we cannot logically reason he exists ?

Sounds like an argument for agnosticism to me , but then again there are a lot of things we can argue about without knowing everything about them . We dont know everything about anything to some degree ...

The only way God can exist is through Faith, not through Logic.

You have never argued with a deist before have you ?

[aquatus1]

How is what I gave not enough to work with ? YOur basically saying that since we dont know enough about the universe to define god completely to every last detail , that we cannot logically reason he exists ?

Yes, pretty much. In order to logically support the existance of god, we have to be able to define Him. This is, quite simply, an absolute requirement for logic. By its very nature, logic cannot support an abstract.

Remember, science isn't about pretending. With science, something either is logically supportable, or it isn't. This does not necessarily mean that something does not exist, but rather that it cannot be logically proven to exist. Science is very much like a large fishing net with inch-wide hole. We can cast this net out and study what we bring in, and with what we study, we can make statements about what is out there, and even theorize on what could be out there. What we cannot do, however, is theorize on things we have no support for. We could not logically claim that there exists fish smaller than 1 inch. Sure, we can listen to sailors talk about how they have seen inch-long fish, but until such time as science can create a net with smaller holes, it cannot prove their existance.

You have never argued with a deist before have you ?

Can't say that I have. To my understanding, they believe that God created everything, then stood back and hasn't interfered since. I have no idea what their stance on faith or logic is, but I doubt they would claim that "faith has nothing to do with God"

[MK ULTRA]

The thing that gets me?

If energy never dies and gets passed along,there must be a beginning somewhere for the big bang etc to happen-Gases,stars,solar systems,space, doesnt just appear out of nowhere. Someone/thing must of started the cosmos,and life.????

Nature and the cosmos is God because we feel it but we cant explain it,it gives us positive feelings-it holds us and binds the universe together, a bit like the force.

But God isnt that dude with beard judging everone,thats BS.

he's cleanshaven

[aquatus1]

The thing that gets me?

If energy never dies and gets passed along,there must be a beginning somewhere for the big bang etc to happen-Gases,stars,solar systems,space, doesnt just appear out of nowhere. Someone/thing must of started the cosmos,and life.????

Actually, the property of energy that does not allow its destruction, but only its transformation would point towards an infinite universe, not one with a particular beginning. This is one of the problems that any creation theory must address, since most of the physical matter in the universe does point to a specific starting point. Big Bang, which is pretty much on its last legs in the scientific world, claims that the energy just keeps exploding and imploding eternally, while String and M theory suspect that the energy might have originated when two separate dimensions made brief contact and created a third separate one.