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thedutchiedutch

U.S. soldier fires on Afghan civilians

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Fluffybunny

It is time to bring them all home. Empty out every non US base all over the world and bring them back here to rest, recuperate and get the care they need.

A guy I went through basic with many decades ago is still in, and served with me in the first Gulf War, and then we had some other missions we went on in the following years. I got out, and he stayed in. He has served 4 tours in Iraq and 4 or 5 in Afghanistan. He is just an absolute mess.

People have no idea what is going on now, and how badly burned out our US soldiers are. This constant fighting is taking its toll.

To give perspective, in WWII the average infantry soldier served a year in the theater he would be fighting in. He would be on the front lines for a maximum of 90 days, and then get rotated out to recover and recoup. He would then be in the back someplace doing support work.

The soldiers now have a full year IN THE COMBAT ZONE. No breaks, to rotating back to Germany to recoup and relax. Every day in a place where death is only seconds away...24/7/365. And when they do get rotated back to the states, it is a good bet that they will get another one year tour in the battle areas of Iraq or Afghanistan because we simply do not have enough trained combat ready soldiers to allow everyone enough time to unwind and become sane again.

With our guys having 4, 5, and 6 tours(or more) under their belts, it is simply to much for the human mind to handle. Too much death, too much anger, too much stress. Too much adrenaline. Too much Killing.

When you take good intention boys who are trying to do their best to follow orders so they can help Afghanistan rebuild itself(We are not there as conquerors, but advisers), and get itself under control, those soldiers will do their best...but after years of trauma, and stress, and death of friends and enemies, and having to kill, and being hated by those you are trying to help...all of the things just add up.

I don't doubt we are having soldiers come unhinged. We have asked too much. We have created unattainable situations and sent them in again and again to do their best. It is the simplest form of insanity; Do the same thing over and over, but expecting something different to happen.

So while this soldier went sideways and went on a shooting spree, he is an American soldier on duty for America, so he will be tried by his court system, not Afghans. If this were a peacetime mission without the history of what was going on, like the American soldier that raped a girl in Japan...then maybe there would be cause to hand him over, but in the midst of war? nope, never going to happen. He will be tried, and either put in a psychiatric hospital or sent to make big rocks into little rocks in a military prison. Those prisons are not like US prisons of leisure; every day is done at hard labor. It is hell.

Anyway, it is time to stop this world policing, and bring everyone home. If things go south and we need to attack someone, then we gather everyone together and bomb what needs to be bombed until the threat is no more. But we do it with the full force of our Military, not 30,00 here, or 50,000 there. Everyone, until the job is complete and there is no question that there will never be another problem in that area. Then we bring them back home to relax and train. The middle east can go crazy, we need to stay away anyway.

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Leonardo

Leonardo, judging by the way you are siding for the Afghans,why dont you pop over there and ask for Asylum ? These people are not worth bothering about,and the only thing they respect is Power.but you have an opinion so I respect that.Have you ever been in that part of the world ?.I can assure you its not a pleasant place,these guys would lie to the Devil,its an Honour to cheat and steal,so I cant believe you are backing them.By the way the last guy to control them was Ghengis Khan.

So, you too have given up on them? Given up on their humanity, that Afghans - like Americans - are human beings?

If there is no point being there, then why are our soldiers there?

Surrendering to the notion that their service means nothing, has no noble or good goal, is the greatest dishonour anyone could cast at the brave men and women who serve and obey. It is all but spitting on their service.

And for the record, I am not 'backing the Afghans', nor am I 'backing the Americans'. I choose to back humanity, and humanity has no nation.

Edited by Leonardo

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spud the mackem

So, you too have given up on them? Given up on their humanity, that Afghans - like Americans - are human beings?

If there is no point being there, then why are our soldiers there?

Surrendering to the notion that their service means nothing, has no noble or good goal, is the greatest dishonour anyone could cast at the brave men and women who serve and obey. It is all but spitting on their service.

And for the record, I am not 'backing the Afghans', nor am I 'backing the Americans'. I choose to back humanity, and humanity has no nation.

Hello L..I have not given up on humanity.Our soldiers are there because the politicians order them and they must obey.Perhaps the politicians know something that we dont ?, maybe there is oil or uranium under the soil..but when we do leave they will continue where they left off,killing each other as they have done for thousands of years.Life is cheap but Power is everything in their eyes,I guess its a tribal issue.The Afghans bring a lot of pain and misery to this world,by exporting poppy derivatives,they dont look at it that way,they just survive by any means possible,so if they kill a few thousand people through Heroin does that worry Them ?,I dont think so,and now here we go again the Tailiban have vowed revenge,so a bomb or two will be turning up to kill a few more innocent people,do they care,? niet,nada no.They are still popping each other off in Iraq,and we are supposed to have sorted that out,and so it will go on with or without our "help",We aint gonna change things.EVER,Maybe we can have other discussions on other subjects sometime but I'm not bothering with this anymore..You have your opinion I have mine and we are not going to change anything...Nil Desperandum

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Gary Meadows

15 less afghans to plant roadside bombs,maybe his buddy was killed so he took the law into his own hands.We have seen how the Afghans work,and the Brits had to release one a few months ago,as he had a wife and 6 kids,absolute bull dust,they cause mayhem then ride off on their camels for tea.Turn the place into glass and GET ALL THE ALLIED TROOPS HOME..p.s give the guy a medal..

People like you are why I hate americans. Your views on the world are twisted. You are evil awful people. And you think you are the good guys??

Edited by Jeffertonturner

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Leonardo

Hello L..I have not given up on humanity.Our soldiers are there because the politicians order them and they must obey.Perhaps the politicians know something that we dont ?, maybe there is oil or uranium under the soil..but when we do leave they will continue where they left off,killing each other as they have done for thousands of years.Life is cheap but Power is everything in their eyes,I guess its a tribal issue.The Afghans bring a lot of pain and misery to this world,by exporting poppy derivatives,they dont look at it that way,they just survive by any means possible,so if they kill a few thousand people through Heroin does that worry Them ?,I dont think so,and now here we go again the Tailiban have vowed revenge,so a bomb or two will be turning up to kill a few more innocent people,do they care,? niet,nada no.They are still popping each other off in Iraq,and we are supposed to have sorted that out,and so it will go on with or without our "help",We aint gonna change things.EVER,Maybe we can have other discussions on other subjects sometime but I'm not bothering with this anymore..You have your opinion I have mine and we are not going to change anything...Nil Desperandum

My emphasis.

Are you suggesting your post (and attitude) doesn't reflect the same 'tribal mentality', simply displayed through another culture?

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Habitat

Reminds me of the My Lai massacre of the Vietnam War, except that was far worse, because of the number of perpetrators and victims. They basically got away with it, I don't expect this guy will.

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tigger

i think it' totally disgusting leading towards barbarian what this 'soldier' did to these innocent women and children.

the fact that he had only been in afghanistan a short amount of time can only show you that this is a rogue, almost premeditated killing. he hadnt been there long enough for any kind of 'brain-snap'

i suspect, if he is tried in an american court.. he will get away with it.. although i think he should have the book thrown at him

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Karlis

Scroll to the top of the page, and note the following:

When posting in the news and politics boards please bear the following in mind:

Do not post hate speech, racist or racially motivated material, links, articles or views.

Please abide by UM posting guidelines,

Karlis -- moderator team member

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Parsip

Leonardo, are you sure the Afghan government has jurisdiction over Coalition troops? Iraq didn't, so I don't see why Afghanistan would.

Edited by Parsip

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Karlis

This is a very complex issue. The soldier has served three tours in Iraq, and this in Afghanistan is now his fourth tour. How many men can stand up to that much stress?

As to jurisdiction of this case -- that's as unclear as fog at night:

* The Afghan parliament said Afghans had "run out of patience with the arbitrary actions of foreign forces".

* "We seriously demand and expect that the government of the United States punish the culprits and try them in a public trial before the people of Afghanistan."

* The call came despite an Afghan agreement with Nato for foreign soldiers to be tried in their own countries.

Source

Whatever the final version of "justice" in this instance; not everyone will be satisfied.

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Robbie333

Question for the US posters.

Would you all be okay with the perpetrator being handed over to the Afghan Civilian Authorities for trial and punishment (dependent on his/her guilt)?

If the alleged crime occured without provacation then he will be tried in a US Military court. He is a soldier and a US citizen to be tried as such. Allow me the liberty to say this. If you never participated in war and killing it is hard to understand what happens to the human being after living it. I am not taking up for the guy. If he did this then let US military justice work. He spent four tours of duty. You do not know what he saw, lived and witnessed during his tours. Again, understanding this from a civilian stand point is impossible.

Edited by Robbie333

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Robbie333

That's comforting to know. But when there is NO DOUBT what this mob would do to him, then it's irresponsible to allow mob justice when it can be avoided. Again, I think you are in no position to judge because it would not trouble you at all if he were tortured and lynched. In fact, if he is not quickly flown out of the country, hundreds may die because of riots and shooting by people trying to be his executioner.

When you say the US should exercise restraint what you mean is that we should allow uneducated, hateful mobs to decide the fate of one of our own. I think the US has tried valiantly to help the Afghan people. Our reward appears to be a situation where we may have to shoot our way out of that God forsaken place. Our morals are not a license for others to use to slaughter us.

Well said.

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Corp

Horrible and I hope they nail this b****** to the wall. Of course this will just result in more riots and Afghan soldiers gunning down NATO troops.

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and then

People like you are why I hate americans. Your views on the world are twisted. You are evil awful people. And you think you are the good guys??

Apparently so, Jeffy, at least if you look at the numbers of human beings who would kill or die to come here and be an American. My guess is that you've not gotten over that awful teen angst... probably "hate" a lot of things eh? :sleepy:

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ohio traveler

This will likely wind-up the Afghan war sooner than otherwise, it will be interesting to see the reaction compared to that for the Koran-burning incident.

I wondered about that too. What do they treasure more ? The lives of the innocent women and children killed, or their Koran ?

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Robbie333

It is time to bring them all home. Empty out every non US base all over the world and bring them back here to rest, recuperate and get the care they need.

A guy I went through basic with many decades ago is still in, and served with me in the first Gulf War, and then we had some other missions we went on in the following years. I got out, and he stayed in. He has served 4 tours in Iraq and 4 or 5 in Afghanistan. He is just an absolute mess.

People have no idea what is going on now, and how badly burned out our US soldiers are. This constant fighting is taking its toll.

To give perspective, in WWII the average infantry soldier served a year in the theater he would be fighting in. He would be on the front lines for a maximum of 90 days, and then get rotated out to recover and recoup. He would then be in the back someplace doing support work.

The soldiers now have a full year IN THE COMBAT ZONE. No breaks, to rotating back to Germany to recoup and relax. Every day in a place where death is only seconds away...24/7/365. And when they do get rotated back to the states, it is a good bet that they will get another one year tour in the battle areas of Iraq or Afghanistan because we simply do not have enough trained combat ready soldiers to allow everyone enough time to unwind and become sane again.

With our guys having 4, 5, and 6 tours(or more) under their belts, it is simply to much for the human mind to handle. Too much death, too much anger, too much stress. Too much adrenaline. Too much Killing.

When you take good intention boys who are trying to do their best to follow orders so they can help Afghanistan rebuild itself(We are not there as conquerors, but advisers), and get itself under control, those soldiers will do their best...but after years of trauma, and stress, and death of friends and enemies, and having to kill, and being hated by those you are trying to help...all of the things just add up.

I don't doubt we are having soldiers come unhinged. We have asked too much. We have created unattainable situations and sent them in again and again to do their best. It is the simplest form of insanity; Do the same thing over and over, but expecting something different to happen.

So while this soldier went sideways and went on a shooting spree, he is an American soldier on duty for America, so he will be tried by his court system, not Afghans. If this were a peacetime mission without the history of what was going on, like the American soldier that raped a girl in Japan...then maybe there would be cause to hand him over, but in the midst of war? nope, never going to happen. He will be tried, and either put in a psychiatric hospital or sent to make big rocks into little rocks in a military prison. Those prisons are not like US prisons of leisure; every day is done at hard labor. It is hell.

Anyway, it is time to stop this world policing, and bring everyone home. If things go south and we need to attack someone, then we gather everyone together and bomb what needs to be bombed until the threat is no more. But we do it with the full force of our Military, not 30,00 here, or 50,000 there. Everyone, until the job is complete and there is no question that there will never be another problem in that area. Then we bring them back home to relax and train. The middle east can go crazy, we need to stay away anyway.

This is well said. Too much death, too much anger, too much stress. Too much adrenaline. Too much Killing. Civialians

I can remember our debriefings after missions and just then realizing what we did. In the heat of a mission you are wired to act, period. You find yourelf getting used to death and the dying, at least for a while. But let me assure you of this. Sometime down the road it all comes out in some form or another. I still battle the nightmares and dark thoughts and some days are better than others but still...This civilian world is not easy. Everyone asked questions out of curiousity or you hear " If I were there I would have" bullcrap. I just do not like discussing it and if it begins to be a conversation I leave. Even my closet friends I did many fire fights with and I hardly ever speak of "it". It is that dark person whom is you who did bad things. At the time they were not bad but when you are home they are " horror". Okay, I am done rambling but please. When your friend, neighbor, son, uncle or whomever comes back from the war, let him talk and do not ever ask questions. Help them get back to the real world. That is all I have to say.

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itsnotoutthere

If the alleged crime occured without provacation then he will be tried in a US Military court. He is a soldier and a US citizen to be tried as such. Allow me the liberty to say this. If you never participated in war and killing it is hard to understand what happens to the human being after living it. I am not taking up for the guy. If he did this then let US military justice work. He spent four tours of duty. You do not know what he saw, lived and witnessed during his tours. Again, understanding this from a civilian stand point is impossible.

Unfortunately this sort of thing does tend to happen more often with american soldiers. Perhaps its got more to do with discipline (of lack thereof) rather than stress.

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Farmer77

Seems shady to me. This guy "snaps" and leaves base at 0300, kicks in doors and massacres these people.

What better way for our defense contractors to extend their manufacturing dollars than to reignite the already high anti americanism in the area. The Taliban is already using this as PR gold.

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Robbie333

Unfortunately this sort of thing does tend to happen more often with american soldiers. Perhaps its got more to do with discipline (of lack thereof) rather than stress.

I don't think it is more prevalent with American soldiers. I feel it is just reported more because of the hatred for us. Civilians being killed is in all wars. Bosnia, Kampucea, Uganda, Syria, and the list goes on. Why this man snapped is anybodys guess. I think I know why but that is another story that would not fly in UM. It is sad for the Afghan families, the soldiers family and for the US as a whole. War is ugly.

Edited by Robbie333

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CommunitarianKevin

I am watchin this on the news again. This stuff really p***es me off. Hand him over to the Afghans. Will they torture him before they kill him? Probably...Maybe he shouldn't go out and kill 16 people, 9 of them kids.

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Fluffybunny

This is well said. Too much death, too much anger, too much stress. Too much adrenaline. Too much Killing. Civialians

I can remember our debriefings after missions and just then realizing what we did. In the heat of a mission you are wired to act, period. You find yourelf getting used to death and the dying, at least for a while. But let me assure you of this. Sometime down the road it all comes out in some form or another. I still battle the nightmares and dark thoughts and some days are better than others but still...This civilian world is not easy. Everyone asked questions out of curiousity or you hear " If I were there I would have" bullcrap. I just do not like discussing it and if it begins to be a conversation I leave. Even my closet friends I did many fire fights with and I hardly ever speak of "it". It is that dark person whom is you who did bad things. At the time they were not bad but when you are home they are " horror". Okay, I am done rambling but please. When your friend, neighbor, son, uncle or whomever comes back from the war, let him talk and do not ever ask questions. Help them get back to the real world. That is all I have to say.

I absolutly agree with you there. I have nightmares still too. Worst yet, my son who is only 23 has horrible nightmares, and can't sleep with his wife because he comes out of his nightmares swinging and fighting. He had so many IED explosions nearby that he has brain trauma and short term memory loss...plus his personality has changed...not just in a way that being in the military changes a person, but he seems like a different person, which the doctors feel is from all of the brain traumas. For those that do not know, being near a large explosion is like getting hit in the head with a 2x4...lots of damage. We both have to wear hearing aids from the hearing damage...

Ughh, it is just miserable. I wish I could have traded places with him. anyway...

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Parsip

I absolutly agree with you there. I have nightmares still too. Worst yet, my son who is only 23 has horrible nightmares, and can't sleep with his wife because he comes out of his nightmares swinging and fighting. He had so many IED explosions nearby that he has brain trauma and short term memory loss...plus his personality has changed...not just in a way that being in the military changes a person, but he seems like a different person, which the doctors feel is from all of the brain traumas. For those that do not know, being near a large explosion is like getting hit in the head with a 2x4...lots of damage. We both have to wear hearing aids from the hearing damage...

Ughh, it is just miserable. I wish I could have traded places with him. anyway...

Just goes to show you war is hell for everyone involved. Most people will never experience such hardship. Whether this is good or bad, I don't know.

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itsnotoutthere

I don't think it is more prevalent with American soldiers. I feel it is just reported more because of the hatred for us. Civilians being killed is in all wars. Bosnia, Kampucea, Uganda, Syria, and the list goes on. Why this man snapped is anybodys guess. I think I know why but that is another story that would not fly in UM. It is sad for the Afghan families, the soldiers family and for the US as a whole. War is ugly.

Hmm...well it seems this guy could see it coming :-

Army: Lack of discipline could grow ‘cancerous’ Lt. Gen. Mark Hertling

The lack of discipline – while not as bad as that following the Vietnam War – is part of what Hertling describes as “knocking off the rust” as the Army recovers from 10 years of war in Afghanistan and Iraq.

“We are an army whose systems need to be polished,” he said. “They’ve rusted significantly.”

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1011/65206.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2045785/Army-commander-brands-lack-discipline-U-S-troops-potentially-cancerous-problem.html

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Cassea

Question for the US posters.

Would you all be okay with the perpetrator being handed over to the Afghan Civilian Authorities for trial and punishment (dependent on his/her guilt)?

Yep.

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CommunitarianKevin

Yep.

Same here.

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