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thedutchiedutch

U.S. soldier fires on Afghan civilians

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Eldorado

Tis an uncomfortable feeling when it's one of your own.

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tigger

I don't think it is more prevalent with American soldiers. I feel it is just reported more because of the hatred for us. Civilians being killed is in all wars. Bosnia, Kampucea, Uganda, Syria, and the list goes on. Why this man snapped is anybodys guess. I think I know why but that is another story that would not fly in UM. It is sad for the Afghan families, the soldiers family and for the US as a whole. War is ugly.

i believe it was an american network that i saw the report on. therefore, that shows just how paranoid the american people are (and always will be) that people, outside of their own borders hate them.. total xenophobia.

this kind of behaviour only riles, and shows a total lack of education.

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Fluffybunny

i believe it was an american network that i saw the report on. therefore, that shows just how paranoid the american people are (and always will be) that people, outside of their own borders hate them.. total xenophobia.

this kind of behaviour only riles, and shows a total lack of education.

...and with your lovely glowing endorsement of Americans, how could we think any different? :lol:

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Cassea

Considering the rampant anti Americanism that exploded in the world after 911 when Europe and other countries basically told us we deserved it. And then continued attempts to criticize our right to defend our country as simply an "oil grab" I don't think that's a fair assessment at all. The fact that Bush had to lie about WMD to get the UN to recognize that Saddam Hussein who was going on the news publicly offering 10,000 dollar rewards to the families of suicide bombers if they attacked Israel and the US? What more weapons of mass distruction do you need? You've got a bunch of guys hijacking planes and flying into buildings. But since we can't find "nuclear weapons" there aren't any WMD? How many people do you need to kill for it to count. :wacko:

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Eldorado

Considering the rampant anti Americanism that exploded in the world after 911 when Europe and other countries basically told us we deserved it.

You sure about that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2004_Madrid_train_bombings

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings

Do you think it's only US troops who are fighting against this scum?

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Cassea

I think it's only Americans who are told we are doing it for oil. This war has basically bankrupted our nation. Train bombings and other bombings are bad. But what happened on 911 is unparalleled in the level of damage. And it's not a contest, but we shouldn't even need to explain ourselves, except the UN keeps talking out of both sides of its mouth. Saying that America is trying to involve itself in civil wars and to stay out of it. Then damning us for not going into Rwanda. We went into the Persian Gulf war on behalf of the UN not behalf of the US. Yet the people that lived in these places remember it as America doing the damage. It's created a backlash that I can't blame them for. Just like the hundreds of thousands of Iraqis who have died in this war will leave a legacy of pain for generations to come. And they will hate and resent the US for it's involvement. Way more so than any other country.

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tigger

...and with your lovely glowing endorsement of Americans, how could we think any different? :lol:

its not anti american at all.. i am sorry you feel that way. the fact of the matter is, americans are paraniod about people and countries outside their own (this is due to lack of education) especially after 9/11. if anything is said, or felt, in the slightest way, to be bashing.. then all hell breaks loose and a person, people or nation is labelled as american haters.

i have learnt this (as have some of my friends) from not only travelling through your country. but being an exchange student. the people i met in my travels knew nothing of my country, size or location..

i think what we have to remember, is that it is not only america that has had terror attacks against its' country. many countries have been attacked, yet american's acts like they are the only ones who have had loss. wake up, and realise there are a lot of people in the same boat, who are fighting the same fight.

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bouncer

its not anti american at all.. i am sorry you feel that way. the fact of the matter is, americans are paraniod about people and countries outside their own (this is due to lack of education) especially after 9/11. if anything is said, or felt, in the slightest way, to be bashing.. then all hell breaks loose and a person, people or nation is labelled as american haters.

i have learnt this (as have some of my friends) from not only travelling through your country. but being an exchange student. the people i met in my travels knew nothing of my country, size or location..

i think what we have to remember, is that it is not only america that has had terror attacks against its' country. many countries have been attacked, yet american's acts like they are the only ones who have had loss. wake up, and realise there are a lot of people in the same boat, who are fighting the same fight.

yep us Brits had the IRA bombings in our green and pleasant land for years, (equivalent to the modern IED's)..such was the fear of being a Brit soldier in Northern Ireland, that my folks forced me NOT to join the Army as the tour of duty was in NI for young soldiers as I would have been...

Being a soldier was my lifes dream up to that point...

so yeh we've had terrorism sustained and for years, on our doorsteps

this: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/24/newsid_2523000/2523345.stm

Shook and broke the windows out of my flat in London, I wasnt home at the time, and I lived a mile away from this bomb site...

then

View PostLeonardo, on 11 March 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Question for the US posters.

Would you all be okay with the perpetrator being handed over to the Afghan Civilian Authorities for trial and punishment (dependent on his/her guilt)?

yeh me too, provided the perpetrator wasnt tied to a bed and having his head sawed off...and upped to viral video sites

Death sentence? Sure shoot the man if needed, just cant stand the head sawed off idea. Sorry!

Edited by bouncer

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Robbie333

I absolutly agree with you there. I have nightmares still too. Worst yet, my son who is only 23 has horrible nightmares, and can't sleep with his wife because he comes out of his nightmares swinging and fighting. He had so many IED explosions nearby that he has brain trauma and short term memory loss...plus his personality has changed...not just in a way that being in the military changes a person, but he seems like a different person, which the doctors feel is from all of the brain traumas. For those that do not know, being near a large explosion is like getting hit in the head with a 2x4...lots of damage. We both have to wear hearing aids from the hearing damage...

Ughh, it is just miserable. I wish I could have traded places with him. anyway...

Good luck with your son. My son did two tours in Iraq. He left being quiet and laid back. Now he paces all night on the porch with a beer and cigerette. The VA is no help, at least not hear. When he was wounded on the second tour---IED blew under their carrier truck. The driver was trashed, the guy on the gun above lost his legs. My son was holding a sandwich and standing outside of the truck in the street and didn't know how he got there. He fell in the street because of his wounds---anyway it has been a long road. Getting rid of the hatred is a battle in itself. When I fought I hated them (whomever I was fighting), wherever I was and just wanted them dead. I was good at it. I did not care how and just did it. Hindsite, they were doing the same thing as us. Being soldiers. It never ends and when you get home no one gets it. Drives me nuts. I went through it and now him. We help each other but rarely talk about fighting anymore. We both just say bring everyone home and let the animals fight each other. Animal is not describing a group of people, just the Taliban and other insurgents. We are not going to stop them as long as they have no jobs and are getting paid. I say help arm and train the good guys and let it go at that. Good luck to your boy and tell him " Salute" and to you as well. I would not have given you such a hard time on one of my post if I would have known you fought. My apology soldier. --Robbie http://troopssupport.com/

Edited by Robbie333

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H.H. Holmes

its not anti american at all.. i am sorry you feel that way. the fact of the matter is, americans are paraniod about people and countries outside their own (this is due to lack of education) especially after 9/11. if anything is said, or felt, in the slightest way, to be bashing.. then all hell breaks loose and a person, people or nation is labelled as american haters.

i have learnt this (as have some of my friends) from not only travelling through your country. but being an exchange student. the people i met in my travels knew nothing of my country, size or location..

i think what we have to remember, is that it is not only america that has had terror attacks against its' country. many countries have been attacked, yet american's acts like they are the only ones who have had loss. wake up, and realise there are a lot of people in the same boat, who are fighting the same fight.

It would be intresting to see if I traveled to Australia how many of the locals would know anything about where I live.

There are ignorant, uneducated people everywhere and to paint all Americans (including myself) as xenophobic is quite insulting. You met a few dumb Americans, then you take those few examples and used it to paint all americans with the same brush.

I guarantee you that most of the people I know could atleast tell you the location, capital, and some of the landmarks of Australia. You will meet some people who have absolutely no interest in geography or who might have had a poor education that will not know much about areas outside their immediate presence, but that is ANYWHERE you go. You seem to be singling out Americans because you do have a prejudice.

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and then

It would be intresting to see if I traveled to Australia how many of the locals would know anything about where I live.

There are ignorant, uneducated people everywhere and to paint all Americans (including myself) as xenophobic is quite insulting. You met a few dumb Americans, then you take those few examples and used it to paint all americans with the same brush.

I guarantee you that most of the people I know could atleast tell you the location, capital, and some of the landmarks of Australia. You will meet some people who have absolutely no interest in geography or who might have had a poor education that will not know much about areas outside their immediate presence, but that is ANYWHERE you go. You seem to be singling out Americans because you do have a prejudice.

Finding fault with America has become trite. It's kind of like making fun of fat people - the target is too easy and it takes no effort. IOW it's boring... America certainly has her problems, as all countries do, but there has never been a nation on earth more willing to help others when they are in need. If our decline continues, it will be interesting to see which nation(s) take up that cause. And,Tigger, we don't hate other nations for bashing us we've gotten used to it. We aren't paranoid of other cultures we've just been so self sufficient for so long that we often fail to appreciate that diversity. I for one love to travel and be immersed in other cultures but just can't afford it any longer. I would love to explore Australia. We Americans had our own wild west once.... :tu:

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bouncer

Finding fault with America has become trite. It's kind of like making fun of fat people - the target is too easy and it takes no effort. IOW it's boring... America certainly has her problems, as all countries do, but there has never been a nation on earth more willing to help others when they are in need. If our decline continues, it will be interesting to see which nation(s) take up that cause. And,Tigger, we don't hate other nations for bashing us we've gotten used to it. We aren't paranoid of other cultures we've just been so self sufficient for so long that we often fail to appreciate that diversity. I for one love to travel and be immersed in other cultures but just can't afford it any longer. I would love to explore Australia. We Americans had our own wild west once.... :tu:

just posted the following story in a similar thread, but it was THIS one Id participated in...so

Lone gunman goes nuts?

Nope!

A few did actually, a group of soldiers did it

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-us-drunk-shooting-373/

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psyche101

It would be intresting to see if I traveled to Australia how many of the locals would know anything about where I live.

There are ignorant, uneducated people everywhere and to paint all Americans (including myself) as xenophobic is quite insulting. You met a few dumb Americans, then you take those few examples and used it to paint all americans with the same brush.

I guarantee you that most of the people I know could atleast tell you the location, capital, and some of the landmarks of Australia. You will meet some people who have absolutely no interest in geography or who might have had a poor education that will not know much about areas outside their immediate presence, but that is ANYWHERE you go. You seem to be singling out Americans because you do have a prejudice.

There are ignorant uneducated people in Australia too, some are even quite self serving and quick to pass judgment. I am an Aussie, I do not see Americans as xenophobic. Without delving deeper due to the many ridiculous conspiracy theories that abound, I always thought America simply did what that toothless tiger the UN lacks the balls to do.

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Michelle

It would be intresting to see if I traveled to Australia how many of the locals would know anything about where I live.

There are ignorant, uneducated people everywhere and to paint all Americans (including myself) as xenophobic is quite insulting. You met a few dumb Americans, then you take those few examples and used it to paint all americans with the same brush.

I guarantee you that most of the people I know could atleast tell you the location, capital, and some of the landmarks of Australia. You will meet some people who have absolutely no interest in geography or who might have had a poor education that will not know much about areas outside their immediate presence, but that is ANYWHERE you go. You seem to be singling out Americans because you do have a prejudice.

It is a common theme with her. The sad part about it...she can't even see it. Makes me wonder who is not too bright? :rolleyes:

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psyche101

My emphasis.

Are you suggesting your post (and attitude) doesn't reflect the same 'tribal mentality', simply displayed through another culture?

Hi Leonardo

What I think has everyone up in arms is indeed the culture shock. These people that this man killed are the people we are supposed to be fighting for, freedom from oppression and human rights. Yet the country practises Shariah Law, which defies all the reasons forces are there. I think the level of confusion is therefore to be expected? I admit, I woud be in 2 minds and am glad I am not making such a decision. Should the mans past record be considered? I think there are many aspects that makes it very difficult for the average person to come to terms with the magnitude of the crime. I cannot say I blame people for the knee jerk reactions, as I said, I could not make the decision. What the man did was unforgivable, yet this man has fought for the very people he affected greatly, and in the West, he might get medical treatment, or the chance to live where he will not hurt others as a reward for risking his own life so many times, yet if tried in Afghanistan, we know the punishment will be brutal and terminal. Does the US owe it to one who put his own life on the line for the very country so many times to do their very best to assist this man, or should we face what he has done from the victims point of view? I know if I was a victim that I would want justice. In the end, we know this mans killing did not end with those 16 unfortunate people. The Taliban will carry this like a torch and use it as an excuse to slay more innocents. Would this mans life end that? I do not think so. Therefore, would this simply not be just another life taken in vain? I think we all need to reserve judgement for the moment until some information is released. I would not be entirely shocked to find out the incident was somehow instigated by the Taliban. Seeing the news this morning, it seems that the Taliban have already killed more innocent villagers over this.

Again, I am just glad I do not have to make the call. It is a tough one to make.

Cheers.

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psyche101

just posted the following story in a similar thread, but it was THIS one Id participated in...so

Lone gunman goes nuts?

Nope!

A few did actually, a group of soldiers did it

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-us-drunk-shooting-373/

Hard to say, I am sure Afghanistan will make American pay for this big time, and many times over. But America is still saying it was one man acting alone.

The Pentagon’s chief spokesman, George Little, said on Monday that there was "every indication" that the perpetrator, whose name he refused to disclose, had not been accompanied by any other soldiers. He also said that the mass killing would not change the “basic war strategy” in Afghanistan.

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and then

just posted the following story in a similar thread, but it was THIS one Id participated in...so

Lone gunman goes nuts?

Nope!

A few did actually, a group of soldiers did it

http://rt.com/news/afghanistan-us-drunk-shooting-373/

I would have to wait for confirmation from another source other than Russia Today :no:

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tigger

i think the question we have to ask ourself here is, if it was a rogue afghan soldier that went on a rampage (it as happened with-in austalian camps) and killed 16 american civilians.. would you have this person tried in an american court, or afghani?

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itsnotoutthere

i think the question we have to ask ourself here is, if it was a rogue afghan soldier that went on a rampage (it as happened with-in austalian camps) and killed 16 american civilians.. would you have this person tried in an american court, or afghani?

Yes that is indeed THE question.

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and then

i think the question we have to ask ourself here is, if it was a rogue afghan soldier that went on a rampage (it as happened with-in austalian camps) and killed 16 american civilians.. would you have this person tried in an american court, or afghani?

An American court. Or at the very least a neutral third party court where there would be some expectation of real justice and not a lynch mob. This isn't about Americans feeling superior to other nation's legal systems. This is an admission of the fact that there is no Afghan legal system.

This murderer will face justice. He probably deserves to be executed if the stories are accurate. But to turn him over to an Afghan "court" is no better than turning him over to a mob.

I can see that prospect doesn't seem to bother some here but when it comes to our soldiers we will sort out our own messes and the rest of the world be damned. Those who want to find fault with that are welcome to.

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Mr Right Wing

Question for the US posters.

Would you all be okay with the perpetrator being handed over to the Afghan Civilian Authorities for trial and punishment (dependent on his/her guilt)?

Afgans report it was a team of soliders not one.

I suspect the attack was ordered in revenge for the 6 Brits that lost their lives a few days before. Maybe the women and children killed were those of the Taliban soliders that did the IED attack?

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tigger

An American court. Or at the very least a neutral third party court where there would be some expectation of real justice and not a lynch mob. This isn't about Americans feeling superior to other nation's legal systems. This is an admission of the fact that there is no Afghan legal system.

This murderer will face justice. He probably deserves to be executed if the stories are accurate. But to turn him over to an Afghan "court" is no better than turning him over to a mob.

I can see that prospect doesn't seem to bother some here but when it comes to our soldiers we will sort out our own messes and the rest of the world be damned. Those who want to find fault with that are welcome to.

why do you think it would be a "lynch mob"? what real and correct information do you have about the afghan legal system, other than what tabloids like to print in propaganda? keep in mind, i too am ignorant of their legal system, i just think that people make up their minds about a whole country, for what a minority does. similar to how people tar all people within the muslim religion. a few radicals are bad, so surely they must all be.

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and then

Afgans report it was a team of soliders not one.

I suspect the attack was ordered in revenge for the 6 Brits that lost their lives a few days before. Maybe the women and children killed were those of the Taliban soliders that did the IED attack?

I don't doubt what you are saying MRW, I just can't find any other source except RT for that story and, sorry, I just don't trust it. Is it possible there's a coverup? Absolutely - wouldn't be the Army's first. But I'd need more than one source to take it seriously.

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and then

why do you think it would be a "lynch mob"? what real and correct information do you have about the afghan legal system, other than what tabloids like to print in propaganda? keep in mind, i too am ignorant of their legal system, i just think that people make up their minds about a whole country, for what a minority does. similar to how people tar all people within the muslim religion. a few radicals are bad, so surely they must all be.

I, like most people, make assumptions of future behavior based on the evidence of my senses. These folks rioted for a couple of weeks and murdered six US troops because of a mistaken disposal of Qur'ans in a trash pit. They do not seem to be the kind of people that wait on reasoned legal opinions. And I submit to you tigger that you are guilty of your own standard of bias. You believe that it's wrong to look at the actions of the few and judge all the rest yet you judge them all to be reasonable and trustworthy in spite of the brutality they have proven themselves capable of. If your child had done this horrible deed would you want him judged in a reasoned, sober way with a real court or would it be okay that there was a great chance he would be guilty before the first evidence was heard? This soldier should receive the death penalty if he is guilty. If he is guilty then he murdered children in cold blood. That is a textbook definition of pure evil. But he is a US soldier and he will be tried under US law. If this had happened in Australia, New Zealand, Britain, Japan or Germany or any other US ally with a mature Western legal system I wouldn't think twice about saying he should be given over to the local authorities. Because we share certain values that the US does not have in common with Islamic countries. It is not about a coverup - just a chance for justice that he otherwise will not have IMO.

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