Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
thedutchiedutch

U.S. soldier fires on Afghan civilians

121 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

H.H. Holmes

To the original question:

I would not want this U.S. soldier turned over to the Afghans, unless the Afghan government vows not to torture or abuse the man. I am a little bit skeptical about the Afghan legal system, I don't really know much about it honestly, but it has been habit in that particular part of the world to torture or brutally kill convicts.

The current Chief Justice of Afghanistan's supreme court is a former law professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. Azimi seems to be much more moderate in his ideals of justice than the former Chief Justice, Shinwari, who was an Islamic cleric and staunchly conservative. However, I don't know if this case would go all the way to the supreme court of Afghanistan (it very well could), so there is some question as to how modernized the district judges, or their Afghan counterparts, are in their thinking towards western principles of human rights.

Either way, we cannot let a country torture or unrightly kill an American citizen. That would be tantamount to acknowledging that torture (under any circumstance) and execution without due process are acceptable, or, at the very least, tolerated.

Edited by H.H. Holmes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

why do you think it would be a "lynch mob"? what real and correct information do you have about the afghan legal system, other than what tabloids like to print in propaganda? keep in mind, i too am ignorant of their legal system, i just think that people make up their minds about a whole country, for what a minority does. similar to how people tar all people within the muslim religion. a few radicals are bad, so surely they must all be.

It's Shari'ah Law. Does that not spell it out?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tigger

It's Shari'ah Law. Does that not spell it out?

oh, so sharia law is akin to a lynch mob? righto, glad you clarified that for me :sleepy:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leonardo

Hi Leonardo

What I think has everyone up in arms is indeed the culture shock. These people that this man killed are the people we are supposed to be fighting for, freedom from oppression and human rights.

Are the 'coalition' forces fighting for the Afghan people, or fighting to change them?

As you point out, their culture, system of justice, etc is different to "the West's" - but does that mean "the West" has the right to look down on them?

If the US, et al, want the Afghan's to respect them, then that respect has to be earned and the first action that should be taken is for the US (and other nations) to respect the differences between their cultures.

From what I read about the developing story, it appears the US will not hand over the soldier for trial. It already appears he is in the process of being partially exonerated through a (media) defence of a combination of injury (specifically, brain injury) and 'war-weariness'. I'm not going to pretend that long-term exposure to war and violence cannot promote a kind of 'temporary insanity', but my personal feeling about this is there can be no excusing the actions this soldier took - if he is guilty, of course.

I would also like to ask the question as to how this soldier left the base (presumably without any 'pass' or furlough) at 0300? Given the situation before this event (the Qur'an burning) and the location of the base, I would expect very tight security at all military bases.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Cassea

To the original question:

I would not want this U.S. soldier turned over to the Afghans, unless the Afghan government vows not to torture or abuse the man. I am a little bit skeptical about the Afghan legal system, I don't really know much about it honestly, but it has been habit in that particular part of the world to torture or brutally kill convicts.

The current Chief Justice of Afghanistan's supreme court is a former law professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha. Azimi seems to be much more moderate in his ideals of justice than the former Chief Justice, Shinwari, who was an Islamic cleric and staunchly conservative. However, I don't know if this case would go all the way to the supreme court of Afghanistan (it very well could), so there is some question as to how modernized the district judges, or their Afghan counterparts, are in their thinking towards western principles of human rights.

Either way, we cannot let a country torture or unrightly kill an American citizen. That would be tantamount to acknowledging that torture (under any circumstance) and execution without due process are acceptable, or, at the very least, tolerated.

He killed 16 people and you are worried about him being tortured or harmed? Mind boggling. I understand the legal ramifications of US military abandoning the soldier. At the same time he needs to be court marshalled very publicly and sent to jail.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leonardo

He killed 16 people and you are worried about him being tortured or harmed? Mind boggling. I understand the legal ramifications of US military abandoning the soldier. At the same time he needs to be court marshalled very publicly and sent to jail.

If the person is guilty of the crime, then whatever sentence is required by law (even if that be execution) will be justly dispensed. However, that does not mean anyone should condone any abuse of the person over and above a just and lawful sentence.

Edited by Leonardo

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

The staff sergeant has an attorney and is supposed to arrive at Fort Leavenworth,Kansas on Friday 16/3/12. This base is THE military prison for the US Army. Given the sensitivities involved I expect he will receive a speedy trial. I don't know what that means in a military court but the government will want to put this thing right as soon as possible if we are to stay in Afghanistan. I agree that his court martial should be public. Televised as a matter of openess. He is alleged to have admitted the crime when he was apprehended. If he murdered babies I think he should be executed with the victim's family present as witnesses. Nothing will ever be enough for the Taliban or, for that matter Karzai's government. It is time to leave Afghanistan NOW. If Obama decides to stay then he and every member of his military advisor staff who council him to stay should be held guilty for every drop of blood spilled. They do not want us there. We are doing no good there. The troops were DISARMED during a visit by the secretary of defense recently because the government wasn't sure if they could be trusted.... that says it all for me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
acidhead

Doesn't make any sense why he burned some of the bodies... especially given the lone gunman theory and 16 dead.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
acidhead

Also this thread is in the wrong section. Afghanistan is located geographically in the Middle East.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

Doesn't make any sense why he burned some of the bodies... especially given the lone gunman theory and 16 dead.

None of it makes sense Acidhead. I'm as pro-American as it gets but this situation is beginning to stink more with each new revelation. One source (RT) has said it was a group of soldiers. No other sources on that yet.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
acidhead

None of it makes sense Acidhead. I'm as pro-American as it gets but this situation is beginning to stink more with each new revelation. One source (RT) has said it was a group of soldiers. No other sources on that yet.

No doubt. Logically, if a criminal was to burn a body it wouldn't be to hide a gunshot wound. It would be done to cover up something else. What we do know is that some of the bodies were women and children. What were their ages? Teen girls perhaps?... or little boys sexually abused? This is the only reason I can imagine the bodies burned. I know it sounds sick and twisted. Also, I cannot imagine one lone soldier doing this alone given the fact the bodies were burned at two separate locations a couple miles from the base. This reeks of multiple individuals responsible.

FTR, the Russia Today source 'sourced' multiple eye witnesses.... those are the sources, not RT.

Edited by acidhead

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Parsip

Also this thread is in the wrong section. Afghanistan is located geographically in the Middle East.

No, it's not! It's in Central Asia. It's only part of the "Greater Middle East", which is about as real as Neverland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greater_Middle_East

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

No doubt. Logically, if a criminal was to burn a body it wouldn't be to hide a gunshot wound. It would be done to cover up something else. What we do know is that some of the bodies were women and children. What were their ages? Teen girls perhaps?... or little boys sexually abused? This is the only reason I can imagine the bodies burned. I know it sounds sick and twisted. Also, I cannot imagine one lone soldier doing this alone given the fact the bodies were burned at two separate locations a couple miles from the base. This reeks of multiple individuals responsible.

FTR, the Russia Today source 'sourced' multiple eye witnesses.... those are the sources, not RT.

It's certainly possible. But until a timeline is established it cannot be said that a single person could not have committed the acts. Also, if the guy did snap or was drunk then the burning of the bodies has less significance because he wouldn't be expected to act rationally. Don't misunderstand me...I make no excuses for his behavior - I just don't see the need to "pile on". If he admitted shooting babies I hope they fry his ass. With the families in attendance. America is better than this and the world doesn't need more excuses to hate us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ZaraKitty

'MERICA! **** YEAH!!

Jks. I'm from Australia, and this is disgusting. What's worse is the people saying the people this man shot and killed were blood thirsty animals. Who killed whom? I heard children were killed. Just because you're 'merican doesn't make you above being humane. <_<

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

'MERICA! **** YEAH!!

Jks. I'm from Australia, and this is disgusting. What's worse is the people saying the people this man shot and killed were blood thirsty animals. Who killed whom? I heard children were killed. Just because you're 'merican doesn't make you above being humane. <_<

HUH? Who said those things?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
H.H. Holmes

'MERICA! **** YEAH!!

Jks. I'm from Australia, and this is disgusting. What's worse is the people saying the people this man shot and killed were blood thirsty animals. Who killed whom? I heard children were killed. Just because you're 'merican doesn't make you above being humane. <_<

Aye, Mate. Are ya going to put some shrimp on the barbie? Maybe kill some kangaroos or pull out a huge hunting knife to make of fun someone's much smaller, less phallic knife? Hmmm... This is what Aurstalians are like right? (sarcasm)

I might as well be as ignorant and biased as you are...

Edited by H.H. Holmes

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

oh, so sharia law is akin to a lynch mob? righto, glad you clarified that for me :sleepy:

Akin, but I would say worse, the judge will likely be standing next to you with a stone in his hand. or enjoying a cool drink at a beheading. These are public assassinations. The people are invited to enjoy the experience with the family.

See this guy? Lost his head because the courts deemed him a sorcerer. Yes, in this day and age.

Is that any clearer for you?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

Are the 'coalition' forces fighting for the Afghan people, or fighting to change them?

One and the same the way I see it. Changing that barbaric way of life is of benefit to the globe I feel. I cannot allow cultural excuses to condone what is nothing short of an abuse of human rights and outright murder.

As you point out, their culture, system of justice, etc is different to "the West's" - but does that mean "the West" has the right to look down on them?

As long as Shariah law is in place, I think so. To many stories hit the media on a far too regular basis of people being beheaded, and atrocities like fathers stoning daughters for violating the families honor. It is barbarism at best, hardly law at all.

If the US, et al, want the Afghan's to respect them, then that respect has to be earned and the first action that should be taken is for the US (and other nations) to respect the differences between their cultures.

Yet, they held onto Osama and hid him for how many years? The Taliban still sneak around on their underbellies striking out from under rocks. They should understand the reasons for the US wanting to trial it's own as they have insisted on the same in their own past. The globe was held at ransom and not allowed to assist the Shah of Iran in his time of need. If an Afghan had killed the soldier in self defence, America would have held that person up as a hero for saving lives. I think the US just need to throw the middle easts reasoning back in their faces. There are 90,000 US troops there, if the Afghan people cannot see this is a rogue incident, I do not know what can quell further tensions. Reason should say what needs to be said here. This was not a US attack. No more than David Hick's presence in the middle east made Australia a Taliban supporter.

From what I read about the developing story, it appears the US will not hand over the soldier for trial. It already appears he is in the process of being partially exonerated through a (media) defence of a combination of injury (specifically, brain injury) and 'war-weariness'. I'm not going to pretend that long-term exposure to war and violence cannot promote a kind of 'temporary insanity', but my personal feeling about this is there can be no excusing the actions this soldier took - if he is guilty, of course.

Indeed I agree 100%, but like any murderer in Western society he has the right to rehabilitation wether we like that or not. It is law, and how this society reaches out with pity. He placed his own life in danger, and his own life sucked because of the way he was deployed all over the place and looked over for promotion. Something snapped. If the atrocity was brought on by a brain malfunction, he is far more valuable to the world in a mental institution where we can study the man to see what snapped, and how to make sure such a thing never happens again. Not rolling around some car park like that unfortunate sorcerer above for opposing forces to jeer and as Obama put it over Bin Ladens body, "spike the football".

I would also like to ask the question as to how this soldier left the base (presumably without any 'pass' or furlough) at 0300? Given the situation before this event (the Qur'an burning) and the location of the base, I would expect very tight security at all military bases.

I can only imagine that as the man had a long history in defence, and considering that he was overlooked for promotion, he most likely had the trust of his compatriots who were on duty. Certainly a mistake, and I expect these questions have been asked.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

If the person is guilty of the crime, then whatever sentence is required by law (even if that be execution) will be justly dispensed. However, that does not mean anyone should condone any abuse of the person over and above a just and lawful sentence.

I agree with this, and the fear is that the region does not have a reputation for just and lawful sentences. I was completely against Bali holding that child last year as well, I do not feel that incarceration is as black and white as one rule for all. There are at times mitigating circumstances that must be entered into.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

'MERICA! **** YEAH!!

Jks. I'm from Australia, and this is disgusting. What's worse is the people saying the people this man shot and killed were blood thirsty animals. Who killed whom? I heard children were killed. Just because you're 'merican doesn't make you above being humane. <_<

Nobody said that, what has been said is that law is an archaic barbaric system and many fear the torturous end this man will have if justice is handed out under that system.

What's with bagging America over the uncontrolled actions of a man who snapped? Remember the Virginia massacre? Lone psycho's just kill, they do not care if you are Afghan, American or a relative. We have psycho's in Australia too, are we to all be considered some gung ho slaughtering nation because of Martin Bryant's actions?

Edited by psyche101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

Aye, Mate. Are ya going to put some shrimp on the barbie? Maybe kill some kangaroos or pull out a huge hunting knife to make of fun someone's much smaller, less phallic knife? Hmmm... This is what Aurstalians are like right? (sarcasm)

I might as well be as ignorant and biased as you are...

Hi Holmes

Sorry for the comments from some countrymen, I assure you this is not the general consensus.

We tend to use the term "prawn" as opposed to shrimp, all the tourism ads say shrimp, that always leaves me scratching my head. Do you lot in the US ever call shrimps prawns? I wonder if it is that the term Prawn is just not used regularly in the US.

And hunting knife - a must! I work in an office, I still carry a knife around, but a small pocket knife for opening deliveries. Mr Dundee would have quite a chuckle at my effort.

Roo meat you can now buy in the supermarket, and sausages too! Not for me, but it is supposed to be quite healthy. You can get Emu these days as well. We are indeed the only nation that eats it's national symbol!

But I admit, this is quite common, how I sent the kids to school this morning ;)

riding%2520kangaroos.jpeg

Maybe you can help me with some american inquiries?

"What state governs The Florida Keys?"

“How long is the 7 mile bridge?”

"Are the Amish in season?"

"How many miles of undiscovered caves are there?"

"When do they turn off the waterfalls at Yosemite National Park?"

"How come all of the war battles were fought in National Parks?"

:rofl:;)

Amazing how wide those oceans are!

Edited by psyche101

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
psyche101

The staff sergeant has an attorney and is supposed to arrive at Fort Leavenworth,Kansas on Friday 16/3/12. This base is THE military prison for the US Army. Given the sensitivities involved I expect he will receive a speedy trial. I don't know what that means in a military court but the government will want to put this thing right as soon as possible if we are to stay in Afghanistan. I agree that his court martial should be public. Televised as a matter of openess. He is alleged to have admitted the crime when he was apprehended. If he murdered babies I think he should be executed with the victim's family present as witnesses. Nothing will ever be enough for the Taliban or, for that matter Karzai's government. It is time to leave Afghanistan NOW. If Obama decides to stay then he and every member of his military advisor staff who council him to stay should be held guilty for every drop of blood spilled. They do not want us there. We are doing no good there. The troops were DISARMED during a visit by the secretary of defense recently because the government wasn't sure if they could be trusted.... that says it all for me.

The bolded sounds like a sensible compromise, but if Afghanistan find the ruling "unjust" could things not likely take a turn for the worse?

I am glad I do not have to make that call.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
and then

The bolded sounds like a sensible compromise, but if Afghanistan find the ruling "unjust" could things not likely take a turn for the worse?

I am glad I do not have to make that call.

True enough but since he is being tried here in the US I believe we should make the whole process as transparent as possible. Last summer a young woman in Florida was aquitted of killing her child after she had long since been convicted in the court of public opinion. If this soldier were acquitted or even given a life sentence there will be more chaos there. There is just no way to win.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
docyabut2

Its just so hard to believe this one lone soldier would walk three miles and kill people, kids, and even a little baby, when he had kids of his own and a friend in Iraq said he helped those people there were who once were shooting at him.It just odd that this horriabe crime came right after the Koran burnings and the taliban was on the verge of peace talks with the Americans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
tigger

Hi Holmes

We tend to use the term "prawn" as opposed to shrimp, all the tourism ads say shrimp, that always leaves me scratching my head. Do you lot in the US ever call shrimps prawns? I wonder if it is that the term Prawn is just not used regularly in the US.

dont forget, we do not drink fosters, we only export that rubbish.

Roo meat you can now buy in the supermarket, and sausages too! Not for me, but it is supposed to be quite healthy. You can get Emu these days as well. We are indeed the only nation that eats it's national symbol!

lol, i too have to laugh at the fact we eat the animals that are our national emblam. gotta love that humour. i havent eaten any roo, or emu, but have had croc. tastes a lot like calamari. quite nice.

But I admit, this is quite common, how I sent the kids to school this morning ;)

riding%2520kangaroos.jpeg

ahhh, see. she has up-graded from the pouch to skippys' back.. next she'll be good enough to go on an emu (emooo). just has to watch out for the hoop-snakes and drop bears. not to mention those pesky bunyips.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.