Florida Teen murdered by

[+DieChecker]

Just to throw one one thing on the fire...

Zimmerman followed Martin because he fit the description of a burgler that had recently been stealing stuff around the neighborhood, right? Well how long had that burgler been active? How long had Trayvon been staying there? If the two match, shouldn't the minimum due diligence be to check if Trayvon was the burgler? A simple check of the house and garage and cars where he was staying, and a check of his bank accounts and local pawn shops should prove if he was or wasn't.

Perhaps Zimmerman was right all along? Have the burglerys stopped?

[Leonardo]

And they must be trustworthy because nobody's trying to get rich off of this right? My link

I never claimed they were trustworthy. My point in posting the information was to highlight how there is so much conflicting information available on free media about much of this incident, and the actual facts that can be definitively ascertained are few.

Certainly, most of what has been posted here cannot be claimed as fact, on either Martin's or Zimmerman's behalf.

socio,

Here is a lot more on the enhanced video;

Does the video prove Trayvon attacked Zimmerman?

Does beg the question, why was a grainy lower resolution released by ABC?

It is probably not even "enhanced" just the original version.

Injuries to Zimmerman do not 'prove' his version of events. They only corroborate that a physical altercation took place - which is something most people realise anyway.

From the basis of knowing a fight took place, it has to be determined what use of force was justified, and whether Martin, Zimmerman, or both, had the right to presume they were under threat of, or being subject to, the use of unlawful force.

Edited April 3, 2012 by Leonardo

[Wandering]

Just to throw one one thing on the fire...

Zimmerman followed Martin because he fit the description of a burgler that had recently been stealing stuff around the neighborhood, right? Well how long had that burgler been active? How long had Trayvon been staying there? If the two match, shouldn't the minimum due diligence be to check if Trayvon was the burgler? A simple check of the house and garage and cars where he was staying, and a check of his bank accounts and local pawn shops should prove if he was or wasn't.

Perhaps Zimmerman was right all along? Have the burglerys stopped?

Didn't know that but doesn't surprise me.

What's a good Neighbourhood Watch Officer to do? Not follow the suspicious character? Always makes me laugh what these people expect.

[Leonardo]

Just to throw one one thing on the fire...

Zimmerman followed Martin because he fit the description of a burgler that had recently been stealing stuff around the neighborhood, right? Well how long had that burgler been active? How long had Trayvon been staying there? If the two match, shouldn't the minimum due diligence be to check if Trayvon was the burgler? A simple check of the house and garage and cars where he was staying, and a check of his bank accounts and local pawn shops should prove if he was or wasn't.

Perhaps Zimmerman was right all along? Have the burglerys stopped?

Where do you get your information from?

There were reported burglaries, and these burglaries were being blamed on black youths. I have seen no evidence that what is claimed [about any alleged perps] is correct, however, and it belongs in the "unsubstantiated rumour" bin until anyone can find that evidence.

Maybe you want to research when the burglaries started, and when Martin arrived, before linking the two?

Didn't know that but doesn't surprise me.

What's a good Neighbourhood Watch Officer to do? Not follow the suspicious character? Always makes me laugh what these people expect.

I guess having freedom of speech doesn't mean that what a person says will sound any more intelligent, or responsible...

[Babe Ruth]

Err but he was doing Neighbourhood Watch? I don't see how you associate that with him being out looking to rape, torture, murder or assault anyone...

You can't sit in your house and check up on the whole neighbourhood... What was trayvon doing out? Maybe he's a predator too.

Please, if he was looking for trouble why call 911 at all? That means the police are going to come and interrupt you mid-rape. Not the smartest move for a predator aye... Think about it.

Predators are not known for their intelligence, they are known for cunning and determination.

Now it seems his credentials regarding Neighborhood Watch are rather sketchy and suspect.

Time will tell.

[eqgumby]

There are, apparently, two different testimonies from 'eye-witnesses', each of which contradict the other. Add to this the mother of one of the eye-witnesses, a young boy, has engaged a lawyer because she claims the testimony of her son was altered by the police/prosecutor's office.

Now, you tell me which of these 'eye-witness testimonies' is the truth of what happened?

Two independent voice analysis experts have made public statements (through a news organisation) that the screams for help recorded in one of the 911 calls on that night, were not made by Zimmerman.

Not true. They said they couldn't make a 90% positive call, needed to confirm it was Zimmerman. Only 48% or some absurd number like it.

[eqgumby]

Maybe it wasn't shown because the media "enhanced" it to make it look like he was wounded. Why would you believe one and not the other? You people are desperate.

Seriously? Enhanced to make it "look" like he was wounded? Holy crap...that's rich.

[conspiracybeliever]

Seriously? Enhanced to make it "look" like he was wounded? Holy crap...that's rich.

No to make it look worse than it is. I saw this on TV last night. They brought out all the red in the picture. The coat was almost glowing.

[Leonardo]

Not true. They said they couldn't make a 90% positive call, needed to confirm it was Zimmerman. Only 48% or some absurd number like it.

The 90% match is what would be required, with a recording of that quality, for the voice to be positive match - according to the expert.

From CNN...

Audio experts Tom Owen and Ed Primeau, who analyzed the recordings for the Sentinel using different techniques, said they don't believe it is Zimmerman who is heard yelling in the background of one 911 call. They compared the screams with Zimmerman's voice, as recorded in a 911 call he made minutes earlier describing a "suspicious" black male.

"There's a huge chance that this is not Zimmerman's voice," said Primeau, a longtime audio engineer who is listed as an expert in recorded evidence by the American College of Forensic Examiners International.

"After 28 years of doing this, I would put my reputation on the line and say this is not George Zimmerman screaming."

Owen, a forensic audio analyst and chairman emeritus of the American Board of Recorded Evidence, also said he does not believe the screams came from Zimmerman.

He cited software that is widely used in Europe and has become recently accepted in the United States that examines characteristics like pitch and the space between spoken words to analyze voices.

Using it, he found a 48% likelihood the voice is Zimmerman's. At least 60%* is necessary to feel confident two samples are from the same source, he told CNN on Monday -- meaning it's unlikely it was Zimmerman who can be heard yelling.

The experts, both of whom said they have testified in cases involving audio analysis, stressed they cannot say who was screaming.

I stressed the last because it may cause some confusion. The statement "they cannot say who was screaming" is only made because the voice analysis experts do not have a sample of Martin's voice for comparison to the audio. Thus, while they can rule out Zimmerman as the source of the screams, they cannot verify who it was - although it is understood that Martin and Zimmerman were the only two people it might probably be.

* I'm aware this seems to contradict the '90%' figure being quoted. 60% is the figure the sample should match to with audio of any quality. The expert suggested the 911 call audio was sufficiently good quality that a 90% match would be expected to make a positive identification.

[FurthurBB]

Just to throw one one thing on the fire...

Zimmerman followed Martin because he fit the description of a burgler that had recently been stealing stuff around the neighborhood, right? Well how long had that burgler been active? How long had Trayvon been staying there? If the two match, shouldn't the minimum due diligence be to check if Trayvon was the burgler? A simple check of the house and garage and cars where he was staying, and a check of his bank accounts and local pawn shops should prove if he was or wasn't.

Perhaps Zimmerman was right all along? Have the burglerys stopped?

Since the burglaries seem to have been in the summer, and Trayvon was only there for a couple of days, it seems very unlikely.

[FurthurBB]

Didn't know that but doesn't surprise me.

What's a good Neighbourhood Watch Officer to do? Not follow the suspicious character? Always makes me laugh what these people expect.

Since the police are saying that the neighborhood watch was told late last year to only call police and not take any more action, I would say that is exactly what I would expect them to do.

[eqgumby]

No to make it look worse than it is. I saw this on TV last night. They brought out all the red in the picture. The coat was almost glowing.

OMG...it never ends.

Since the burglaries seem to have been in the summer, and Trayvon was only there for a couple of days, it seems very unlikely.

Maybe Trayvon was visiting during the summer, just like he was visiting while serving a school suspension...

[eqgumby]

Hmmm...so, eight prior burglaries perpetrated by "African American youths".

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline/zimmerman-neighbor-rash-robberies-young-black-men-trayvon-145647987.html

Oh, and look, MORE lies perpetrated by Jackson and his cronies...

The report states that George Zimmerman's gun "was placed into evidence" and not returned to him, and the scene of the shooting was secured with crime scene tape. This directly conflicts with statements made by civil rights activists, including Rev. Jesse Jackson, who had claimed the Sanford, Fla., police department "didn't even bother to put yellow tape around the murder scene when he died—that's how much the police did to find out what happened to this young boy."

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout/trayvon-martin-police-report-reveals-crime-scene-details-175656087.html

Aaaaand right from the police report...

"Zimmerman was placed in the rear of my police vehicle and was given first aid by the SFD. While the SF was attending to Zimmerman, I overheard him state, 'I was yelling for someone to help me, but no one would help me.' At no point did I question Zimmerman about the incident that had taken place."

Although I'm sure someone will claim that Zimmerman, the criminal mastermind that he is, clearly did this just so it would be reported.

[Socio]

The 90% match is what would be required, with a recording of that quality, for the voice to be positive match - according to the expert.

From CNN...

I stressed the last because it may cause some confusion. The statement "they cannot say who was screaming" is only made because the voice analysis experts do not have a sample of Martin's voice for comparison to the audio. Thus, while they can rule out Zimmerman as the source of the screams, they cannot verify who it was - although it is understood that Martin and Zimmerman were the only two people it might probably be.

* I'm aware this seems to contradict the '90%' figure being quoted. 60% is the figure the sample should match to with audio of any quality. The expert suggested the 911 call audio was sufficiently good quality that a 90% match would be expected to make a positive identification.

American Board of Recorded Evidence -- Voice Comparison Standards

If you read through what is required for credible voice analysis, you will see that it, among other things, that it requires that the "samples have wholly or similar phrasing with at least (3) similar consecutive words",that "there must be at least (10) comparable word between two (2) voice samples to reach a minimal decision criteria", and that "other disguises that obviously change or obscure the vocal formants or other speech characteristics, may need to be eliminated from comparison consideration".

Thus I would think that having only one or two words in the screaming sample along with the fact that the words being yelled out by a person in distress would not only contradict all three of those requirements but make it easily dismissible as evidence in a court of law.

Add to that the fact that that the screams were being transmitted over distance, through doors and windows and rebroadcast over a cordless phone and then recorded on 911 medium and it seems to me that it was very dishonest to claim "that the screams could not have come from George Zimmerman, so they must have come from Martin".

Edited April 3, 2012 by Socio

[conspiracybeliever]

OMG...it never ends.

Maybe Trayvon was visiting during the summer, just like he was visiting while serving a school suspension...

OMG it never ends. Maybe Trayvon snuck out his window in the night and made his way to his father's neighborhood so he could his neighbors. Maybe his Skittles were laced with heroin. Maybe anything so we can place blame on a 17 year old who was being stalked by some wanna be cop obsessed with crime trying to be everyone's hero. Nothing that happens at this point is going to change the fact that he went out playing cop with a gun looking for trouble. The man is an idiot and he's a murderer. And if the tables were turned Trayvon would be sitting in jail right now. But instead he's in his grave and people like you are defending the guy that killed him.

[H.H. Holmes]

776.041 Use of force by aggressor. —The justification described in the preceding sections of this chapter is not available to a person who:

(1) Is attempting to commit, committing, or escaping after the commission of, a forcible felony; or

(2) Initially provokes the use of force against himself or herself, unless:

(a) Such force is so great that the person reasonably believes that he or she is in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm and that he or she has exhausted every reasonable means to escape such danger other than the use of force which is likely to cause death or great bodily harm to the assailant; or ( In good faith, the person withdraws from physical contact with the assailant and indicates clearly to the assailant that he or she desires to withdraw and terminate the use of force, but the assailant continues or resumes the use of force.

Does anyone think that George Zimmerman's actions might fit into the exception made in (2)a or (2)b?

The way I interpret (2)a, if George Zimmerman provoked the altercation, he still had a right to defend himself if the use of force against him was so great that his life was in imminent danger. Of course, that is if he took every advantage to escape or diffuse the situation. He was not committing a felony by following the young man, nor breaking any law, so I don't see why he wouldn't be considered for the exception in 2(a) if the common theory of how the whole interaction between the two went down is true (which we have no clue if it is at this point).

There are so many unknowns about those few seconds in which Zimmerman decided to shoot Trayvon. Those few seconds, I believe, determines whether this case is covered under the "Stand Your Ground" law or not.

Edit: The happy face isn't suppose to be there and I have tried to change it to a lower case *b*, but it is always coming up as a smiley face. So it is obviously suppose to be a *b*, not a smiley face.

Edited April 4, 2012 by H.H. Holmes

[+DieChecker]

Where do you get your information from?

There were reported burglaries, and these burglaries were being blamed on black youths. I have seen no evidence that what is claimed [about any alleged perps] is correct, however, and it belongs in the "unsubstantiated rumour" bin until anyone can find that evidence.

Maybe you want to research when the burglaries started, and when Martin arrived, before linking the two?

I've started to do just that. The poor best I could with just Google and such.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/03/justice/florida-teen-shooting-burglaries/?hpt=us_c1

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- A neighbor and friend of George Zimmerman's said Tuesday on CNN that their neighborhood had suffered eight burglaries, all committed by young black men, in the 15 months prior to Trayvon Martin's shooting.

Frank Taaffe's account paints a picture of a neighborhood watch volunteer making rounds in a community suffering a spate of burglaries when he ran across what he thought was a suspicious figure walking the streets. Police records appear to only partially substantiate Taaffe's claims about the burglaries, citing three of eight cases in which suspects were identified as black males.

So, then my idea is probably wrong. There is no way that Treyvon was involved in any regular burglerys in the neighborhood. He was not there long enough and only a couple of the local burglerys were IDed as being from young black men.

[Myles]

OMG it never ends. Maybe Trayvon snuck out his window in the night and made his way to his father's neighborhood so he could his neighbors. Maybe his Skittles were laced with heroin. Maybe anything so we can place blame on a 17 year old who was being stalked by some wanna be cop obsessed with crime trying to be everyone's hero. Nothing that happens at this point is going to change the fact that he went out playing cop with a gun looking for trouble. The man is an idiot and he's a murderer. And if the tables were turned Trayvon would be sitting in jail right now. But instead he's in his grave and people like you are defending the guy that killed him.

I would say that since Trayvon has a history of theft, vandalism and drugs, it's safe to assume that he may have been up to no good out in the rainy night wearing his hoodie. I would expect a neighborhood watch to keep an eye on him.

I'm also not surprised that he attacked George.

Edited April 4, 2012 by Myles

[+DieChecker]

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wire-news/trayvon-martin-beforeworld-heardcries_688684.html

'YOU GOT ME'

The night his son was killed, Martin, 45, was out to dinner with his fiancée, Brandy Green.

Martin, who was divorced from Trayvon's mother, Sybrina Fulton, in 1999, is a truck driver from Miami who has a long-distance relationship with Green, a resident of the Retreat at Twin Lakes subdivision in Sanford where Zimmerman also lived.

Martin would visit Green on weekends, making the four-hour drive to the Orlando suburb of Sanford. In late February he was able to bring his son because Trayvon, a junior, was serving a 10-day suspension from Miami's Dr. Michael M. Krop Senior High School. He'd been caught with a plastic baggie that contained traces of marijuana.

On Wednesday, the day after receiving the news, Martin went to the Sanford Police Department looking for answers - and his son's body. Police took him to a room and played some of the 911 recordings of neighbors who called to report a disturbance followed by a gunshot. They did not play an earlier call to a police non-emergency line, during which Zimmerman reported a "suspicious guy" and ignored the operator's suggestion to quit following him.

Investigator Chris Serino then took Martin to another room and told him Zimmerman's version of events. Sanford police have stopped talking to reporters about the case, and Serino has never spoken publicly about his role in it, but here is how Martin recalls what Serino said:

"He told me Zimmerman's story was that Zimmerman was of course following him and that Trayvon approached his vehicle, walked up to the car and asked Zimmerman, 'Why are your following me?' Zimmerman then rolls his car windows down, tells Trayvon 'I'm not following you.' He rolls his car windows up.

"Trayvon walks off. Zimmerman said he started running between the buildings. Zimmerman gets out of his car. He comes around the building. Trayvon is hiding behind the building, waiting on him. Trayvon approaches him and says, 'What's your problem, homes?' Zimmerman says 'I don't have a problem.'

"Zimmerman starts to reach into his pocket to get his cellphone, and at that point Trayvon attacked him. He says Trayvon hits him. He falls on the ground. Trayvon jumps on top of him, takes his left hand and covers Zimmerman's mouth and tells him to shut the F up and continues to pound on him.

"At that point Zimmerman is able to unholster his weapon and fire a shot, striking Trayvon in the chest. Trayvon falls on his back and says, 'You got me.'"

The Martin family has been telling their story as part of a campaign to have Zimmerman arrested. He himself has kept quiet.

The Father's quote above seems to say that the police thought that Trayvon was the one who threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was acting in self defense.

[+DieChecker]

I stressed the last because it may cause some confusion. The statement "they cannot say who was screaming" is only made because the voice analysis experts do not have a sample of Martin's voice for comparison to the audio. Thus, while they can rule out Zimmerman as the source of the screams, they cannot verify who it was - although it is understood that Martin and Zimmerman were the only two people it might probably be.

* I'm aware this seems to contradict the '90%' figure being quoted. 60% is the figure the sample should match to with audio of any quality. The expert suggested the 911 call audio was sufficiently good quality that a 90% match would be expected to make a positive identification.

I'm not sure even if it was Martin screaming, if that would proove anything. I've heard people screaming for help while beating the crap out of people before.

[Leonardo]

American Board of Recorded Evidence -- Voice Comparison Standards

If you read through what is required for credible voice analysis, you will see that it, among other things, that it requires that the "samples have wholly or similar phrasing with at least (3) similar consecutive words",that "there must be at least (10) comparable word between two (2) voice samples to reach a minimal decision criteria", and that "other disguises that obviously change or obscure the vocal formants or other speech characteristics, may need to be eliminated from comparison consideration".

Thus I would think that having only one or two words in the screaming sample along with the fact that the words being yelled out by a person in distress would not only contradict all three of those requirements but make it easily dismissible as evidence in a court of law.

Add to that the fact that that the screams were being transmitted over distance, through doors and windows and rebroadcast over a cordless phone and then recorded on 911 medium and it seems to me that it was very dishonest to claim "that the screams could not have come from George Zimmerman, so they must have come from Martin".

Thanks for the info, socio.

This suggests the voice analysis would not be sufficient to be admissible in court - unless Florida's courts use a more relaxed interpretation of the above?

I've started to do just that. The poor best I could with just Google and such.

http://edition.cnn.com/2012/04/03/justice/florida-teen-shooting-burglaries/?hpt=us_c1

So, then my idea is probably wrong. There is no way that Treyvon was involved in any regular burglerys in the neighborhood. He was not there long enough and only a couple of the local burglerys were IDed as being from young black men.

I'm not sure even if it was Martin screaming, if that would proove anything. I've heard people screaming for help while beating the crap out of people before.

The info about the discrepancy between what a resident said, and what the police reports indicate, is telling in itself, DieChecker, about how people confuse and misremember things.

And good point about the last. Good work.

[+susieice]

http://www.moneycontrol.com/news/wire-news/trayvon-martin-beforeworld-heardcries_688684.html

The Father's quote above seems to say that the police thought that Trayvon was the one who threw the first punch, and that Zimmerman was acting in self defense.

But we know from the calls to the dispatcher events didn't happen like this. When the dispatcher hears the truck door open and tells him not to go, Zimmerman says nothing about having any contact with Trayvon. He calls again after that saying he's going to follow him and debates how to meet the police. He was nowhere near his truck when he catches up and confronts the teen. Later he says the teen followed him to the truck. His story changes and doesn't match up with the calls he made. He says he reached for his cellphone. IMO I think he may have reached for something else. Would explain the escalation of the situation so quickly.

Edited April 4, 2012 by susieice

[conspiracybeliever]

I would say that since Trayvon has a history of theft, vandalism and drugs, it's safe to assume that he may have been up to no good out in the rainy night wearing his hoodie. I would expect a neighborhood watch to keep an eye on him.

I'm also not surprised that he attacked George.

And I'm not surprised that you have these thoughts even though you've seen Zimmerman's history posted on this thread. Because of course in your head it's always the lazy stupid poor trying to steal from the hard working well to do right? And of course it's those black or "nonwhite" neighborhoods. It's all those single mothers. The "nonperfect" families like yours.

[H.H. Holmes]

I would say that since Trayvon has a history of theft, vandalism and drugs, it's safe to assume that he may have been up to no good out in the rainy night wearing his hoodie. I would expect a neighborhood watch to keep an eye on him.

I'm also not surprised that he attacked George.

We don't know who did what, except that Zimmerman shot Trayvon. Everything else is a huge questionmark when it comes to the critical moments when a confrontation between the two took place. Zimmerman could have attacked Trayvon first or vice-versa. Sure, Trayvon did have trouble with drugs, he was suspended from school for having drugs, but we shouldn't equate a drug user with a violent criminal. The two are very different crimes and one does not necessarily lead to the other. I think Trayvon was a decent kid who did get caught up with drugs and maybe the wrong crowd, but we shouldn't assume he was a dangerous criminal. From most accounts I have heard of Trayvon, he was pretty much an average, somewhat troubled teenager who didn't have a pattern of physical violence. Somewhat the same with Zimmerman, I don't think that he is as evil as the mass media and some on this thread are making him out to be. From the history that I have gathered about him, he has been on both sides of the law, both victim and perpetrator. I think his hyper-vigilantism is a result of an assault that happened to him a few years ago. Going through a violent attack like that can change someone's mentality, even make someone behave irrationally.

Edited April 4, 2012 by H.H. Holmes

[+and-then]

The crucial few seconds prior to the shot being fired seems to have been lacking any eyewitness.

In fairness Zimmerman's story should be given the same weight of trust that people are offering Trayvon. But I suspect Zimmerman is screwed because Eric "Place" Holder will find a way to incarcerate him, even if there is no real proof. And if Zimmerman isn't convicted there will be violence. How's that for "blind justice"?