Gummug Posted June 2, 2013 #1451 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Zimmerman had it out for Martin "from the beginning". Zimmerman viewed Martin as a criminal, and formed several other immediate impressions of Martin, all of which showed to be entirely false. In the 9-1-1 call, Zimmerman expressed anger (cursing) and frustration (they always get away) and he demonstrated aggression as he exited his vehicle and followed Martin on foot.... and minutes later, Martin ended up dead. Well, you know, under those circumstances, there had better be a damned good explanation from the shooter, and the evidence better support it. Curiously, you neglected to express sorrow for Martin, whom it's determined was an unarmed,17 year-old boy (5'11", 158 lbs. per autopsy report) with no criminal record (police records), who was shot dead on his way home from a 7-11 and whose body was stored in the office of the medical examiner for two days as 'Unidentified #3'. Well, Regi, I guess you are buying this: http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/post-partisan/wp/2013/05/28/pictures-put-trayvon-martin-on-trial/ but to try and be fair and balanced (which I am trying to be) you might also consider this: http://topconservativenews.com/2013/05/more-evidence-that-trayvon-martin-was-a-violent-dangerous-thug/ Hopefully the truth will come out during the trial. Btw (as has been mentioned in this thread in some of the previous posts) sometimes obeying the dispatcher can lead to calamity, even death, and as has also been mentioned in this thread, the dispatcher is not an LEO and Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to follow her orders. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Sam Posted June 2, 2013 #1452 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Ever heard of the term beating a dead horse? This topic won't die... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 2, 2013 #1453 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Ever heard of the term beating a dead horse? This topic won't die... The trial begins this week US so it has become topical again. I would add that IF Z is acquitted, as I feel he should be, then a serious degree of violence could ensue in the major inner cities. It will depend, in large measure on the responsible handling of the trial coverage by the press. Edited June 2, 2013 by and then 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 2, 2013 #1454 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Well, Regi, I guess you are buying this: http://www.washingto...artin-on-trial/ but to try and be fair and balanced (which I am trying to be) you might also consider this: http://topconservati...dangerous-thug/ Hopefully the truth will come out during the trial. Btw (as has been mentioned in this thread in some of the previous posts) sometimes obeying the dispatcher can lead to calamity, even death, and as has also been mentioned in this thread, the dispatcher is not an LEO and Zimmerman was under no legal obligation to follow her orders. My comments/opinions are based on what I've read in the case file. Re: the operator, it's clear in his voice that he was taken aback when he asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin. He recognized the potential for violence. I wonder if he had the knowledge that Zimmerman was armed, if he would have kept him on the line until police arrived. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 2, 2013 #1455 Share Posted June 2, 2013 My comments/opinions are based on what I've read in the case file. Re: the operator, it's clear in his voice that he was taken aback when he asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin. He recognized the potential for violence. I wonder if he had the knowledge that Zimmerman was armed, if he would have kept him on the line until police arrived. Maybe, Regi, but isn't the real lynch pin of all this that Z was being beaten into near unconsciousness and he shot and killed the man because of it? The argument can (and will ) certainly be made that had Z not followed, none of this would have happened. But the circumstances are hazy enough that I think he must be given benefit of doubt about his motives. What is NOT hazy is that he showed the signs of a beating that corroborate his story while I have seen no evidence the same can be said of T. Z has some culpability in this but by Fla law there is NO WAY he is convicted of murder 2 unless he gets lynched politically. Trouble will come from this - I'm really glad I live in a rural area these days. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted June 2, 2013 #1456 Share Posted June 2, 2013 My comments/opinions are based on what I've read in the case file. Re: the operator, it's clear in his voice that he was taken aback when he asked Zimmerman if he was following Martin. He recognized the potential for violence. I wonder if he had the knowledge that Zimmerman was armed, if he would have kept him on the line until police arrived. Out of curiosity, would you provide a link to the actual police case file with a transcript of the 911 call? There have been many edited versions of it depending on the media's agenda. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummug Posted June 2, 2013 #1457 Share Posted June 2, 2013 What I'd like to know, it seems there was evidence that Martin was acting suspiciously. If this is true, what is the moral of this story? That if someone acts suspiciously in your neighborhood, don't worry about it, because if you follow him and a fight ensues and you have to defend yourself, then you are the guilty one? It seems like it's getting to where, if someone wants to rob you blind, just let them, because if you try and stop them by force, then you are the one in trouble. Imo, it's crazy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted June 2, 2013 #1458 Share Posted June 2, 2013 Zimmerman had it out for Martin "from the beginning". Zimmerman viewed Martin as a criminal, and formed several other immediate impressions of Martin, all of which showed to be entirely false. In the 9-1-1 call, Zimmerman expressed anger (cursing) and frustration (they always get away) and he demonstrated aggression as he exited his vehicle and followed Martin on foot.... and minutes later, Martin ended up dead. Well, you know, under those circumstances, there had better be a damned good explanation from the shooter, and the evidence better support it. Cursing and frustration does not equal motive or mentality to kill someone. Here is the transcript that I found online... http://www.documentcloud.org/documents/326700-full-transcript-zimmerman.html (The site will not allow Copy and Paste) Also here... http://phoebe53.wordpress.com/2012/03/26/zimmerman-911-call-transcript-trayvon-martin/ Zimmerman: Now he’s staring at me. [00:48] 911 dispatcher: OK, you said that’s 1111 Retreat View or 111? Zimmerman: That’s the clubhouse. 911 dispatcher: He’s near the clubhouse now? Zimmerman: Yeah, now he’s coming toward me. He’s got his hands in his waist band. And he’s a black male.[1:03] 911 dispatcher: How old would you say he is? Zimmerman: He’s got something on his shirt. About like his late teens. 911 dispatcher: Late teens? Zimmerman: Uh, huh. Something’s wrong with him. Yep, he’s coming to check me out. He’s got something in his hands. I don’t know what his deal is. [01:20] 911 dispatcher: Let me know if he does anything, OK? Funny. It seems Martin walked toward George and threatened him. (Hands in the pants is a threat display.) Acting "gangster"? If Martin had simply walked over and said, "I live over there." He'd still be alive. Also seems the 911 operator was not having a problem with George... 911 dispatcher: Yeah, I’ve got it. 435-2400? Zimmerman: Yeah, you got it. 911 dispatcher: OK, no problem. I’ll let them know to call you when they’re in the area. [4:02] Zimmerman: Thanks. 911 dispatcher: You’re welcome. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted June 2, 2013 #1459 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) What I'd like to know, it seems there was evidence that Martin was acting suspiciously. If this is true, what is the moral of this story? That if someone acts suspiciously in your neighborhood, don't worry about it, because if you follow him and a fight ensues and you have to defend yourself, then you are the guilty one? It seems like it's getting to where, if someone wants to rob you blind, just let them, because if you try and stop them by force, then you are the one in trouble. Imo, it's crazy. Isn't that the same thinking that let the 9-11 terrorists fly planes into the WTC in NY? People were told not to resist under penalty of law if a plane got hijacked. Answer: It is the exact same thinking. Let yourself be robbed, or go to jail. Edited June 2, 2013 by DieChecker 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 2, 2013 #1460 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Out of curiosity, would you provide a link to the actual police case file with a transcript of the 911 call? There have been many edited versions of it depending on the media's agenda. I don't believe an official transcription exists. If it does, I haven't seen it. (I've also referred to it as a 9-1-1 call, but actually, the call was placed to a police 'non-emergency' number.) Edited June 2, 2013 by regi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 2, 2013 #1461 Share Posted June 2, 2013 (edited) Cursing and frustration does not equal motive or mentality to kill someone. Funny. It seems Martin walked toward George and threatened him. (Hands in the pants is a threat display.) Acting "gangster"? If Martin had simply walked over and said, "I live over there." He'd still be alive. Also seems the 911 operator was not having a problem with George... I didn't say that the operator was "having a problem with George". I said it sounded TO ME that he was "taken aback"... that he didn't realize that Zimmerman was on the move. I doubt he expected it. I didn't suggest anything about a motive or mentality to kill!, but I do think Zimmerman's anger and frustration prompted him to exit his vehicle and look for Martin after he was out of sight. It was Zimmerman who had a problem, so I don't think it's reasonable that Martin should have approached Zimmerman to ask what Zimmerman's problem was. It's too bad Zimmerman didn't allow the police to do what they're trained to do. Edited June 2, 2013 by regi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 2, 2013 #1462 Share Posted June 2, 2013 What I'd like to know, it seems there was evidence that Martin was acting suspiciously. If this is true, what is the moral of this story? That if someone acts suspiciously in your neighborhood, don't worry about it, because if you follow him and a fight ensues and you have to defend yourself, then you are the guilty one? It seems like it's getting to where, if someone wants to rob you blind, just let them, because if you try and stop them by force, then you are the one in trouble. Imo, it's crazy. Gummug I carry a pistol now because I met a crackhead on a lonely country road near my new home a couple of months ago. I intentionally bought something with a LOT of boom! But also of a type where if I had to defend myself in court I could truthfully say I had done all I could to use the least force necessary. I chose a derringer over/under barrel with a .410/.45 Colt. The first shot would be bird shot from the .410. If there had to be a second shot the .45 will seal the deal! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 3, 2013 #1463 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Maybe, Regi, but isn't the real lynch pin of all this that Z was being beaten into near unconsciousness and he shot and killed the man because of it? The argument can (and will ) certainly be made that had Z not followed, none of this would have happened. But the circumstances are hazy enough that I think he must be given benefit of doubt about his motives. I don't know that Zimmerman was beaten near unconsciousness, and that's why he shot and killed Martin. I have a lot of questions about this case and if you have questions, I don't know what they are. I do understand that you don't give any benefit of the doubt to Martin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bavarian Raven Posted June 3, 2013 #1464 Share Posted June 3, 2013 BTW this thread seriously needs to be renamed... >.> Just my two cents. As of right now there was no murder. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted June 3, 2013 #1465 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) I didn't suggest anything about a motive or mentality to kill!, but I do think Zimmerman's anger and frustration prompted him to exit his vehicle and look for Martin after he was out of sight. Fair enough... It was Zimmerman who had a problem, so I don't think it's reasonable that Martin should have approached Zimmerman to ask what Zimmerman's problem was. Ahh... But the 911 transcript (See my earlier post #1453 for the link) said initially Trayvon came toward the truck to intimidate Zimmerman and even stuck his hand down his pants like reaching for a gun. True.... Z may have made that up, but I find that unlikely as this was just seconds into the encounter. THUS.... It is not beyond imagination that Martin decided to try to bluff his way out of being followed by confronting Z and it escalated quickly to violence. It's too bad Zimmerman didn't allow the police to do what they're trained to do. I agree. Z should have returned to his truck and stayed there till the Police arrived and pointed them toward where Martin ran off to. But, according to Z's interview on Fox(?)... He did not run off after Trayvon, but stayed close to his truck and it was Trayvon that came back and jumped him. Makes me wonder if there is a map of all this out there somewhere. I'll check. We have the address of the clubhouse as 111 Retreat View. (Is that irony... Retreat View??) EDIT: This map seems pretty good. So we can see that Martin probably ran off and could easily have gotten away. For Trayvon to have been shot between the buildings on the side walk, he either had to have... 1) Went around the corner and stayed there, intending on confronting Z. (Unlikely because Z said he got away to the 911 person and was going back to his truck.) or... 2) Trayvon PURPOSEFULLY returned and sought to confront Z. If there is a 3) or 4) please post them... Edited June 3, 2013 by DieChecker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gummug Posted June 3, 2013 #1466 Share Posted June 3, 2013 Gummug I carry a pistol now because I met a crackhead on a lonely country road near my new home a couple of months ago. I intentionally bought something with a LOT of boom! But also of a type where if I had to defend myself in court I could truthfully say I had done all I could to use the least force necessary. I chose a derringer over/under barrel with a .410/.45 Colt. The first shot would be bird shot from the .410. If there had to be a second shot the .45 will seal the deal! That sounds nice in a way. The only thing I would worry about (and I hope you never are) if you are accosted by multiple assailants, you'll want something with more than a few shots...as Michelle who posts here frequently can attest, at least a six shot revolver is nice. Also, I just wonder, have you shot it yet at the range? Please don't get angry, I'm not insulting your intelligence, but I would think a derringer in .45 Colt would have quite the recoil. Again, didn't want to offend you, just didn't know how familiar you are with firearms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 3, 2013 #1467 Share Posted June 3, 2013 That sounds nice in a way. The only thing I would worry about (and I hope you never are) if you are accosted by multiple assailants, you'll want something with more than a few shots...as Michelle who posts here frequently can attest, at least a six shot revolver is nice. Also, I just wonder, have you shot it yet at the range? Please don't get angry, I'm not insulting your intelligence, but I would think a derringer in .45 Colt would have quite the recoil. Again, didn't want to offend you, just didn't know how familiar you are with firearms. No offense taken at all. I am 6'1 and about 280 so the recoil is no problem though it DOES jolt the wrist a bit At 2-3 steps from the target you get about 20 - 30 pellets inside a 3 ft. circle. and the .45 at that distance is within about a 3 in circle. It IS strictly a self defense weapon in the purest sense. The fact that you cannot fight off a crowd plays in your favor if you stand before a judge. IF you survive to stand there. It is one of the injustices of our time that a person feels the need to think that far ahead but I would rather be dead than in a prison cell anyway. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Uncle Sam Posted June 3, 2013 #1468 Share Posted June 3, 2013 The trial begins this week US so it has become topical again. I would add that IF Z is acquitted, as I feel he should be, then a serious degree of violence could ensue in the major inner cities. It will depend, in large measure on the responsible handling of the trial coverage by the press. I thought he already got charged and went to trail... :\ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 3, 2013 #1469 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I thought he already got charged and went to trail... :\ No, just indicted. Trial was postponed 'til June 10. I think they wanted time to prepare and also time for the people of the area in Sanford - and the country - to cool down a bit. The race whores and blood thirsty media hounds will whip it all back up though, I'm thinkin' 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 3, 2013 #1470 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) But the 911 transcript (See my earlier post #1453 for the link) said initially Trayvon came toward the truck to intimidate Zimmerman and even stuck his hand down his pants like reaching for a gun. True.... Z may have made that up, but I find that unlikely as this was just seconds into the encounter. THUS.... It is not beyond imagination that Martin decided to try to bluff his way out of being followed by confronting Z and it escalated quickly to violence. I agree. Z should have returned to his truck and stayed there till the Police arrived and pointed them toward where Martin ran off to. But, according to Z's interview on Fox(?)... He did not run off after Trayvon, but stayed close to his truck and it was Trayvon that came back and jumped him. Well, although we can only speculate what could have been Martin's interpretation of Zimmerman's behavior, we have to consider Martin's position. It's something Zimmerman never appeared to consider, that is, how Martin might interpret Zimmerman's behavior, or how his own behavior could influence Martin's. I think Martin's behavior showed that he recognized that Zimmerman had a problem with him. I think he was making himself available for contact, and I'm sure he was confused that there was never a response from the vehicle. I doubt if Zimmerman actually believed Martin had a weapon. In one of his interviews when he described the struggle, he said he thought Martin had something in his hand, which is a notion I can't make sense of because he said Martin had a hold of his head with both hands at the time. Anyway, Zimmerman couldn't have known if Martin was bluffing or not about a weapon, but after that episode with Martin, it should have been evident that it would only aggravate the situation if he continued to follow him. Regardless, he should have never exited his vehicle. It's never a wise decision. There's a map indicating the crime scene on page 145 of these reports. I find the location of Martin's cell phone interesting. http://www.clickorla...n-documents.pdf Edited to add that there's another map on page 284. Also, the irony of the name Retreat View Circle wasn't lost on me, either! Edited June 3, 2013 by regi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 3, 2013 #1471 Share Posted June 3, 2013 (edited) For Trayvon to have been shot between the buildings on the side walk, he either had to have... 1) Went around the corner and stayed there, intending on confronting Z. (Unlikely because Z said he got away to the 911 person and was going back to his truck.) or... 2) Trayvon PURPOSEFULLY returned and sought to confront Z. If there is a 3) or 4) please post them... I think Zimmerman had an idea of where he believed Martin could have been headed because in a previous call (#2 at the link) to the police non-emergency number, he told the operator that "they typically run away...uh, quickly, and I think they head over to the neighborhood.. the next neighborhood over." He said the neighborhood was called Calabria Cove. There is a street called Calabria Springs Cove immediately to the south to his neighborhood. Anyway, for that reason, the time factor, and because he thought Martin might still have been around, I question that he only walked up and then back down that one sidewalk that connects the streets. (Twin Trees and Retreat View) http://www.wesh.com/...qz/-/index.html Edited June 3, 2013 by regi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Regi Posted June 3, 2013 #1472 Share Posted June 3, 2013 BTW this thread seriously needs to be renamed... >.> Just my two cents. As of right now there was no murder. If you're referring to the manner of death, it's a homicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted June 3, 2013 #1473 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I think Zimmerman had an idea of where he believed Martin could have been headed because in a previous call (#2 at the link) to the police non-emergency number, he told the operator that "they typically run away...uh, quickly, and I think they head over to the neighborhood.. the next neighborhood over." He said the neighborhood was called Calabria Cove. There is a street called Calabria Springs Cove immediately to the south to his neighborhood. Anyway, for that reason, the time factor, and because he thought Martin might still have been around, I question that he only walked up and then back down that one sidewalk that connects the streets. (Twin Trees and Retreat View) Possibly, but did you hear the way Z was huffing and puffing after walk/jog/running just one block? I don't think he ran down a 17 year old kid with less weight, more height and athletically built. Z was stalking around that cut through for minutes, and then somehow he confronted Martin just a couple feet down the sidewalk. To me that map shows that Martin is the one that returned to the scene. How else does Z confront Martin a few feet from where he'd been walking around for 4 minutes? In 4 minutes Trayvon should have been out the back of the complex and down the street at McDonalds. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+DieChecker Posted June 3, 2013 #1474 Share Posted June 3, 2013 I think Martin's behavior showed that he recognized that Zimmerman had a problem with him. I agree with that. it should have been evident that it would only aggravate the situation if he continued to follow him. Perhaps, but maintaining the situation is what Z wanted. He wanted Martin to be around long enough for the Police to show up. There's a map indicating the crime scene on page 145 of these reports.I find the location of Martin's cell phone interesting. http://www.clickorla...n-documents.pdf Edited to add that there's another map on page 284. Also, the irony of the name Retreat View Circle wasn't lost on me, either! I like your link. The location of the cell phone is interesting. It is Behind where the two would have been fighting. Perhaps dropped or fallen when Martin was moving up on Zimmerman. If Martin advanced on Zimmerman, what does that mean in a SYG case? Does it mean he was an active aggressor, rather then a purely Defensive victim? To me it appears that Z was on the north end of that sidewalk, and Martin came out into the sidewalk area between the buildings. And then Both slowly moved up toward each other, and resulted in a fist fight, that Z lost. Then there would be no victim, just two aggressors. No case for SYG for either. Possibly why Z has announced he will not use SYG in his defense. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bavarian Raven Posted June 3, 2013 #1475 Share Posted June 3, 2013 If you're referring to the manner of death, it's a homicide. So much for innocent until proven guilty. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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