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Homeopathy 'biologically implausible'


Saru

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So you're saying a paracetamol will cure cancer.
Did I? Would you mind showing me where?
Intriguing theory, based on your conclusion (which I have no idea where it came from) that ONE type of alternative medicine cures it all, implying that one orthodox medicine will cure all diseases. FYI, there are several methods, procedures and medications in both fields. No, sugar pills will not cure all diseases
Or any for that matter. Homeopathy cures *nothing*, its a placebo.
But why does someone need to be told all this? I thought you'd figure out as much. You look at the disease, determine the root cause and apply the relevant treatment. Not rocket science. Where have you been? Are you like 6 years old or what?
So you just assumed that from my post?

Perhaps you'd like to work on your comprehension skills some time.

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You tree hugging herbalist....

Like you didn't see that coming.

I do agree that if you have nothing to loose Alternative Medicine is better then no hope at all.

I also agree that Western medicine concentrates too much on the Treatment and not enough on the Patient.

Also, Homeopaths don't just practice homeopathy, right? They are like naturopaths and Chinese Medicine practicioners who use a combination of techniques not just homeopathy.

I'd still first turn to my Western Medicine doctor, but I would definately try an alternative doctor it I had nothing to loose and everything to gain. But, then, I have really good insurance from work, so I don't have to pay those exorbitant prices that some others would have to.

When it comes to my animals,I go to a regular vet first,and get tests done,and find out what is going on .

If i have a western diagnosis,I can translate it into an eastern one.

Animals are harder to diagnose with Chinese medicine,as we cannot look at their tongue,and take their pulse. We can go by some symptoms,but its not definative.

With a human,it helps to have diagnostics done,but we basically use another modality of medicine.

That's all it is.Another way to do it.

And actually no,not all homeopathy practitioners do any other form of medicine.

I am in no way certified to do homepathy. I have a basic working knowledge of it.

Their solutions confuse the hell out of me.

Lower solutions seem to work much better than higher concentrations.

Right over my head.

So I can only use homeopathy on myself or my animals,if i choose to.

You might want to look at the homeopathic line by Boiron.

Some of their stuff has saved my life .

Literally . I had experienced a severe lung burn from chlorine gas .

Long story ,but i was looking at hospital time.

Neh,They make this stuff called Chestal,that totally kept me clear and from wheezing,or getting any edema. Worked better than an inhaled and steroids ,in this case.

I also swear by their occilliococcinum.

I usually opt for Chinese herbs ,as a rule ,as they are my forte ,but I slip some homepathic stuff in on occaision.

As for my patients,I cannot legally tell them to take any homeopathic meds,so i don't .

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The thing is, millions of people around the world take homeopathic remedies and go on taking them whenever they get ill ...... they are the first thing they reach for ..... why would they go on doing this if they didn't work? If something didn't work, why would you keep using it? To me, the reason WHY the remedies work really doesn't matter because all I'm concerned about is that they DO work! I can treat myself more often than not.

Touche ! :yes:

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Homeopathy is just a D&D healing potion.

Whoa there pilgrim! D&D healing potions actually work!

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For people who learn better by watching things then reading, I found a good video where a guy explains homeopathy.

Excellent example!

Thanks for posting that.

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Homeopathy=crap. Try to test it scientifically and you find what? A big freaking bowl of nothing. Thats a fact. Booya.

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For you Skeptic Eric, as you didn't have time to read all the posts in the topic:

The thing is, millions of people around the world take homeopathic remedies and go on taking them whenever they get ill ...... they are the first thing they reach for ..... why would they go on doing this if they didn't work? If something didn't work, why would you keep using it? To me, the reason WHY the remedies work really doesn't matter because all I'm concerned about is that they DO work! I can treat myself more often than not.

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For you Skeptic Eric, as you didn't have time to read all the posts in the topic:

Nor did you.

If a million believe in a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.

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Ahhh... That explains a lot of your positions on these forums.

:tu:

The entire idea of Homeopathy requires belief in Water Memory. And that the water in the concoction retains the properties of the medicine/herb used, even after there is nothing left of the medicine or herb in the water. Science has shown that "water memory" is only possible for thousands of a nano-second. So to believe in homeopathy one must first suspect belief in science and the scientific method.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I realize that big pharma and medicine in general is a big target around here, but personally I like the idea of running down to Walgreens and picking up $5 box of sinus meds vs dying of a sinus infection like many of our ancestors did. Or being able to throw a little Neosporin and a band-aid on a cut I got working in the yard vs dying a slow and agonizing death.

But that's just me. I'm a sheeple.

Here's a fun little homeopathy test my friends Ross and Carrie did a few months back:

http://www.ohnopodcast.com/investigations/?currentPage=2

Ross and Carrie and the Homeopathic Overdose: The Watered Down Edition

In this episode, Ross and Carrie together take 280 homeopathic pills live on the air, chase them with wine, and discuss their first visit to a combination homeopath and Ayurvedic practitioner. Will Ross and Carrie survive the overdose? Will Ross’ fatigue be cured? Will Carrie’s headaches go away? And will Ayurveda permit hot drinks?! Find out in this one-of-a-kind episode!

And don't forget to "like" us on facebook to see the pictures!

Edited by Rafterman
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Nor did you.

If a million believe in a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.

Heavens! You didn't even read the post you've responded to :wacko: . My point is: millions of people find that IT WORKS FOR THEM ...... so why would they stop using it because 'science' can't prove HOW it works?

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Heavens! You didn't even read the post you've responded to :wacko: . My point is: millions of people find that IT WORKS FOR THEM ...... so why would they stop using it because 'science' can't prove HOW it works?

It doesn't work, its a placebo. I could give you sugar pills and get the same result.

Argument from popularity only proves human stupidity.

Edited by Rlyeh
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It doesn't work, its a placebo. I could give you sugar pills and get the same result.

Think about what you've said there ......... isn't that wonderful? Isn't that amazing that millions of people can cure themselves with a 'sugar pill'?

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Think about what you've said there ......... isn't that wonderful? Isn't that amazing that millions of people can cure themselves with a 'sugar pill'?

Comprehension isn't your strong suit is it? Homeopathy clearly hasn't cured it's supporters from ignorance.
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What are you basing your scorn of homeopathy on? I'm basing my support of it on personal experience and that of others close to me.

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What are you basing your scorn of homeopathy on? I'm basing my support of it on personal experience and that of others close to me.

Controlled trials, chemistry, etc.

http://www.thelancet...7177-2/fulltext

http://www.acsh.org/...ssue_detail.asp

Placebo effect and bias are adequate explanations of why "millions" think it works.

Edited by Rlyeh
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If a million believe in a foolish thing, it's still a foolish thing.

True!!!!

Think about what you've said there ......... isn't that wonderful? Isn't that amazing that millions of people can cure themselves with a 'sugar pill'?

True this also. But, in that why do we need homeopathy if taking a sugar pill, or a bit of chalk, or swallowing a glass bead, does the exact same thing? All those things are cheaper and work to the same extents. The only thing homeopathy has going for it is possibly a greater chance at being believed by the Believer, which is what actually does the cure. Homeopathy would never work on a skeptic, unless he somehow thought it MIGHT work.

It is the same thing with prayer. I've seen people dying come back from the brink when they had a room full of people standing around them praying out loud.

The materials of homeopathy don't matter at all. Thus homeopathy itself does not matter. Only the belief of the person taking the cure matters.

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Ok, so which homeopathic "cures" work?

Informative link -

At Best, the "Remedies" Are Placebos

Homeopathic products are made from minerals, botanical substances, and several other sources. If the original substance is soluble, one part is diluted with either nine or ninety-nine parts of distilled water and/or alcohol and shaken vigorously (succussed); if insoluble, it is finely ground and pulverized in similar proportions with powdered lactose (milk sugar). One part of the diluted medicine is then further diluted, and the process is repeated until the desired concentration is reached. Dilutions of 1 to 10 are designated by the Roman numeral X (1X = 1/10, 3X = 1/1,000, 6X = 1/1,000,000). Similarly, dilutions of 1 to 100 are designated by the Roman numeral C (1C = 1/100, 3C = 1/1,000,000, and so on). Most remedies today range from 6X to 30X, but products of 30C or more are marketed.

A 30X dilution means that the original substance has been diluted 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times. Assuming that a cubic centimeter of water contains 15 drops, this number is greater than the number of drops of water that would fill a container more than 50 times the size of the Earth. Imagine placing a drop of red dye into such a container so that it disperses evenly. Homeopathy's "law of infinitesimals" is the equivalent of saying that any drop of water subsequently removed from that container will possess an essence of redness. Robert L. Park, Ph.D., a prominent physicist who is executive director of The American Physical Society, has noted that since the least amount of a substance in a solution is one molecule, a 30C solution would have to have at least one molecule of the original substance dissolved in a minimum of 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 molecules of water. This would require a container more than 30,000,000,000 times the size of the Earth.

Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its "active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400 zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes). In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky bird "the $20-million duck."

Actually, the laws of chemistry state that there is a limit to the dilution that can be made without losing the original substance altogether. This limit, which is related to Avogadro's number, corresponds to homeopathic potencies of 12C or 24X (1 part in 1024). Hahnemann himself realized that there is virtually no chance that even one molecule of original substance would remain after extreme dilutions. But he believed that the vigorous shaking or pulverizing with each step of dilution leaves behind a "spirit-like" essence—"no longer perceptible to the senses"—which cures by reviving the body's "vital force." Modern proponents assert that even when the last molecule is gone, a "memory" of the substance is retained. This notion is unsubstantiated. Moreover, if it were true, every substance encountered by a molecule of water might imprint an "essence" that could exert powerful (and unpredictable) medicinal effects when ingested by a person.

Many proponents claim that homeopathic products resemble vaccines because both provide a small stimulus that triggers an immune response. This comparison is not valid. The amounts of active ingredients in vaccines are much greater and can be measured. Moreover, immunizations produce antibodies whose concentration in the blood can be measured, but high-dilution homeopathic products produce no measurable response. In addition, vaccines are used preventively, not for curing symptoms.

Stan Polanski, a physician assistant working in public health near Asheville, North Carolina, has provided additional insights:

Imagine how many compounds must be present, in quantities of a molecule or more, in every dose of a homeopathic drug. Even under the most scrupulously clean conditions, airborne dust in the manufacturing facility must carry thousands of different molecules of biological origin derived from local sources (bacteria, viruses, fungi, respiratory droplets, sloughed skin cells, insect feces) as well as distant ones (pollens, soil particles, products of combustion), along with mineral particles of terrestrial and even extraterrestrial origin (meteor dust). Similarly, the "inert" diluents used in the process must have their own library of microcontaminants.

The dilution/potentiation process in homeopathy involves a stepwise dilution carried to fantastic extremes, with "succussion" between each dilution. Succussion involves shaking or rapping the container a certain way. During the step-by-step dilution process, how is the emerging drug preparation supposed to know which of the countless substances in the container is the One that means business? How is it that thousands (millions?) of chemical compounds know that they are required to lay low, to just stand around while the Potent One is anointed to the status of Healer? That this scenario could lead to distinct products uniquely suited to treat particular illnesses is beyond implausible.

Thus, until homeopathy's apologists can supply a plausible (nonmagical) mechanism for the "potentiation"-through-dilution of precisely one of the many substances in each of their products, it is impossible to accept that they have correctly identified the active ingredients in their products. Any study claiming to demonstrate effectiveness of a homeopathic medication should be rejected out-of-hand unless it includes a list of all the substances present in concentrations equal to or greater than the purported active ingredient at every stage of the dilution process, along with a rationale for rejecting each of them as a suspect.

The process of "proving" through which homeopaths decided which medicine matches which symptom is no more sensible. Provings involved taking various substances recording every twitch, sneeze, ache or itch that occurred afterward—often for several days. Homeopathy's followers take for granted that every sensation reported was caused by whatever substance was administered, and that extremely dilute doses of that substance would then be just the right thing to treat anyone with those specific symptoms.

Dr. Park has noted that to expect to get even one molecule of the "medicinal" substance allegedly present in 30X pills, it would be necessary to take some two billion of them, which would total about a thousand tons of lactose plus whatever impurities the lactose contained.

Nibs

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I don't know what else to say except that I know it has worked on a range of ailments that I have had and that my son has had and that friends and relatives have had, so I couldn't care less what 'science' has to say on the subject.

I find it strange that some people are so desperately anti-homeopathy without trying it themselves. I also find it strange that so many people are so scathing about placeboes .... if it WORKS(for some people), shouldn't we be celebrating the fact?

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I don't know what else to say except that I know it has worked on a range of ailments that I have had and that my son has had and that friends and relatives have had, so I couldn't care less what 'science' has to say on the subject.

I find it strange that some people are so desperately anti-homeopathy without trying it themselves. I also find it strange that so many people are so scathing about placeboes .... if it WORKS(for some people), shouldn't we be celebrating the fact?

I don't think you understand what a placebo is. Should we celebrate sugar pills because they work for some people?

The trials show modern medicine is far more effective than homeopathy, so no we shouldn't celebrate something that is clearly inferior.

I imagine you might care more if your child died because you chose quackery over modern science.

Edited by Rlyeh
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It's important to remember that regular medicine (like tylonal) both benefits from the placebo effect and has a real effect. Placebo doesn't cure anything, you trick yourself into feeling better, which can help you with certain problems, but more serious problems need to be treated by more than just magic water.

For those who think it's just "Big Pharma" wanting you to buy meds... keep in mind not only are homeopathic medications usually fairly expensive, I've seen costs up to 30 dollars and more for what amounts to water or sugar pills (and bizarely includes remedies derived from light reflected from Venus and bits of the Berlin wall) which is markedly cheaper to produce than real meds, AND many Pharma companies also produce herbal and homeopathip treatments. Others, like Boiron, are literally billion dollar industries in their own right.

As for homeopathic treatments itself, one issue I've run into is that some companies that produce the stuff fib on the ingredients or dilution level.

There'll actually be a normal or effective level of the herb or compound, or another drug in the mixture that has some effect.

Which makes it difficult to gauge this stuff.

I'm glad Ross and Carrie did due diligence before doing their overdose or it could have ended badly.

4742589570_7869118474_b.jpg

For the rest of the comic

Edit:

Homeopathy isn't ancient, by the way. It date back to the 1800s, and to be fair medical capability at the time was still recovering from the Dark Ages in a lot of ways. It had the benefit of doing nothing, so many people who would have normally been bled (a truly ancient practice that millions of people believed to be effective, so take that for your popularity fallacy.) to death or given pills containing various deadly (but natural!) chemicals in toxic levels (like lead, or mercury, or nightshade) which is another good old traditional practice.

Edited by ShadowSot
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It's important to remember that regular medicine (like tylonal) both benefits from the placebo effect and has a real effect. Placebo doesn't cure anything, you trick yourself into feeling better, which can help you with certain problems, but more serious problems need to be treated by more than just magic water.

For those who think it's just "Big Pharma" wanting you to buy meds... keep in mind not only are homeopathic medications usually fairly expensive, I've seen costs up to 30 dollars and more for what amounts to water or sugar pills (and bizarely includes remedies derived from light reflected from Venus and bits of the Berlin wall) which is markedly cheaper to produce than real meds, AND many Pharma companies also produce herbal and homeopathip treatments. Others, like Boiron, are literally billion dollar industries in their own right.

As for homeopathic treatments itself, one issue I've run into is that some companies that produce the stuff fib on the ingredients or dilution level.

There'll actually be a normal or effective level of the herb or compound, or another drug in the mixture that has some effect.

Which makes it difficult to gauge this stuff.

I'm glad Ross and Carrie did due diligence before doing their overdose or it could have ended badly.

4742589570_7869118474_b.jpg

For the rest of the comic

Edit:

Homeopathy isn't ancient, by the way. It date back to the 1800s, and to be fair medical capability at the time was still recovering from the Dark Ages in a lot of ways. It had the benefit of doing nothing, so many people who would have normally been bled (a truly ancient practice that millions of people believed to be effective, so take that for your popularity fallacy.) to death or given pills containing various deadly (but natural!) chemicals in toxic levels (like lead, or mercury, or nightshade) which is another good old traditional practice.

Yes, bleeding people was extremely popular and people thought they were cured by it. Also, it was a very popular idea at one time that what women ate during pregnancy could have an effect on the sex of the child, even though that was already determined and has nothing whatsoever to do with the woman. Popularity does not equal effective.

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Think about what you've said there ......... isn't that wonderful? Isn't that amazing that millions of people can cure themselves with a 'sugar pill'?

Sure. Placebo effect is real, but doesnt really cure anything. It covers it. Millions of kids believe in Santa. :yes:

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Heavens! You didn't even read the post you've responded to :wacko: . My point is: millions of people find that IT WORKS FOR THEM ...... so why would they stop using it because 'science' can't prove HOW it works?

More people believed that bleeding worked than believe in homeopathy, that doesn't mean it worked.

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I remember reading a book, and I'm sorry I don't recall the author or title, where scientists had done a study of homeopathy and found it to be (as I recall) more effective than a mere placebo effect, though the study left them scratching their heads because, as I believe has been pointed out, probably not even one molecule of the original (infusion?) remained. Just my two cents worth. And I give a respectful salute to Simbi Laveau.

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