Talon Posted September 22, 2004 Author #26 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Sovietism was just fascism with state control over industry though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted September 22, 2004 #27 Share Posted September 22, 2004 (edited) Ahh true very true however the peopel were asked about communism not a return to the fascist puppet that stalinism was. The only true future for us is communism , but it has to be real communism. Was it marx that said "to have true communism we must first have capitalism", dunno or was it durkheim. TAlon you'll know?? Anyway that is the best descriptiopn for our present situation , weve had capitalism for a century and just as imperialism failed so has this now its time for communism and for it to be practised right. Capitalisms cons far far far outweigh its pro's, it has justcreated a new upperclass or aristocracy, this itme fuelled by greed and wealth as a pose to lineage. It has no place now. Question is are we reasy as human beings to embrace that way of life. Edited September 22, 2004 by wunarmdscissor Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bathory Posted September 22, 2004 #28 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Anyway that is the best descriptiopn for our present situation , weve had capitalism for a century and just as imperialism failed so has this now its time for communism and for it to be practised right. Capitalisms cons far far far outweigh its pro's, it has justcreated a new upperclass or aristocracy, this itme fuelled by greed and wealth as a pose to lineage. It has no place now. hahah do you seriously think a true communist state could work with the populations we have to deal with these days? Ignoring the need for a Papa Smurf (people in power), do you think 240 million smurfs could develop a cohesive harmonious society to work towards the common good? oh oh and whats the deal with only one female? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wunarmdscissor Posted September 22, 2004 #29 Share Posted September 22, 2004 It could be done if we were raised in such a capitalist greed insored hate thy neighbour style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 22, 2004 #30 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Communism could never work. The labour camps, the mass eradication of the bourgeoisie, the extreme atheism which persecuted Christians and Jews alike, and the anti-Semitism are all in Marx's works. The communism you grown to hear about is the result of soviet propganda. Communism and fascism are very close. My grandfather, a devoted communist, and a high ranking personall in the Romanian Communist Party back in the 50s, was kicked from the communist party after it was discovered that his grandfather was a bourgeoisie (he had a small wood factory near Iasi). Just as fascism believes in racism, communism believes in classism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 22, 2004 #31 Share Posted September 22, 2004 (edited) On the other hand, the only place in the world where communism works in the utopian way is in the kibbutz Edited September 22, 2004 by Erikl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 22, 2004 Author #32 Share Posted September 22, 2004 The labour camps, the mass eradication of the bourgeoisie, the extreme atheism which persecuted Christians and Jews alike, and the anti-Semitism are all in Marx's works. The communism you grown to hear about is the result of soviet propganda. Communism and fascism are very close. So wrong Marx's books actually read more like a guild to Democracy (remember he wrote at a time when only 10% of the population could vote) 'Dictatorship of the Masses' actually just means a government voted in by the masses... ie. a democracy. He indeed hated religion, but I don't see him saying they should be killed, nethier was he anti-Semitic just because he converted from Jeudism to Athiesm, you forget more leading Communists in both Russia and Germany at the beginning of the century were Jews.... its not an anti-Semtic ideology. Lastly he didn't talk about killing middle classes etc (he was muddle class, most leaders of pre-1918 communist groups were middle-class... and they weren't sucidial) he talking about removing the class system so all classes became the same. Its not his fault if Lenin, Stalin etc warped his ideals. Ahh true very true however the peopel were asked about communism not a return to the fascist puppet that stalinism was. Proper communism. Not possible until they go through Capitalism and socialism. Was it marx that said "to have true communism we must first have capitalism", dunno or was it durkheim. TAlon you'll know?? Yep, said it was a necessary evil that had to be done. Socialism and communism could only provide for the workers by the industrial methods of production produced under capitalism... which unfortuanatly involved a lot of blood, sweat and tears. Then they could revolt and take it over and share it will all society. Leninism messed up and claimed it would happen in agricultural societies under fuel lords rather than industrial capitalists.... which just ended in people starving, and then Stalin working people to death in an attempt to industrialise in 5 years. Then along came Stalin, and another mess. He beleived Revlution would occur in a single nation, which would become strog and then take over the rest of the nations through forced revolution.... er no... Marx was against this because he acurately beleive all nations had to go comunist otherwise the high classes (i.e. the best and brightest, richest etc) would just flee to a capitalist society and leave in ruin. Guess would was right: Marx, Lenin, or Stalin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 22, 2004 #33 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Talon, the only place I've seen where Communism in the way you portray it exists, is in Israeli kibbutz. Every kibbutz is an autonomic town, with seperate economic system from that of the rest of Israel. It is governed by a direct democracy. It's society dedicated to mutual aid and social justice. It is a socioeconomic system based on the principle of joint ownership of property, equality and cooperation of production, consumption and education. It is the fulfillment of the idea "from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs". It wasn't forced on the population - the population chosed to live there. There are 247 Kibbutzim (plural of Kibbutz) in Israel today. The majority of them are atheists (as true socialists are), but a large part of them are orthodox kibbutzim (which probably causes Marx to turn in his grave). When I was younger, I stayed at the kibbutz during the summer (my uncles live in a kibbutz), and it always susprised me how communism worked there fluently And this system is working for 95 years (the first kibbutz was built in 1909). But then again, I don't see it working anywhere else in world, so go figure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 22, 2004 Author #34 Share Posted September 22, 2004 (edited) But then again, I don't see it working anywhere else in world, so go figure... As I said, thats because Lenin and Stalin corrupted it. As I've already said, Communism can only work in industrialised nations and only if all industrialised nations follow the ideology. Anyway, modern democracies with social schemes actually fit closely to semi-socialism... just if they nationalised more industries. Edited September 22, 2004 by Talon S. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 22, 2004 #35 Share Posted September 22, 2004 As I said, thats because Lenin and Stalin corrupted it. As I've already said, Communism can only work in industrialised nations and only if all industrialised nations follow the ideology. Might be that the Kibbutz wasn't affected by this because it was established before the Russian revolution of 1917.... Anyway, modern democracies with social schemes actually fit closely to semi-socialism... just if they nationalised more industries. disgust.gif Maybe European countries should come and have a look at the Kibbutz, and learn from it, instead of looking to Stalin, Lenin and other evil communist regimes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 22, 2004 Author #36 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Maybe European countries should come and have a look at the Kibbutz, and learn from it, instead of looking to Stalin, Lenin and other evil communist regimes. But they don't , they look at capitalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 22, 2004 #37 Share Posted September 22, 2004 Which isn't bad in itself... I'm all for capitalism, as it is the only large scale economy which doesn't fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 23, 2004 Author #38 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Which isn't bad in itself... I'm all for capitalism, as it is the only large scale economy which doesn't fail. Ever really seen capitallism Go back two hundreds or one hundred and fifty years and study capitalism, the trade union movements, occupational health etc, you'll all find fluffy version of capitalism we all know now that means companies producing goods and fighting each other for the cosumer is a trend from the 1960s onwards. Before and for a long time after that it took like left a long time to temper capitalism by fighting for ever right we take or granted, from tiolets at work to the 8-hour day to welfare. I'd love to let these anti-leftist, capitalist-lovers go back to the last century, they wouldn't last one day Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erikl Posted September 23, 2004 #39 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Talon, as you like to mention it so often on a different subject, that was a long time ago. The same way modern democracy evolved, so did capitalism. Just like in the last century women and non-white people didn't have voting rights, so was capitalism very un-pleasent to the little person. But since about 1870, in Germany, to 1934 (the U.S - the last old-fashioned capitalist country back then) in the U.S, capitalism became more and more human-friendly. Sure, it picked a lot from socialism. But the adoption of some socialist agendas by capitalists gave to the world social-democracy, welfare state, etc. Communism in large scale is not possible. Maybe, as a first step, capitalism and communism could be living side by side (like in Israel - where the rest of the country is social-democrat, ie capitalist, while the kibbutzim are pure communist. 4% of Israel's population lives in the kibbutzim, btw), in small scale. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 23, 2004 Author #40 Share Posted September 23, 2004 Sure, it picked a lot from socialism. But the adoption of some socialist agendas by capitalists gave to the world social-democracy, welfare state, etc. Excatly the good parts evolved from the left... whgats the issue here Communism in large scale is not possible. Yeah... as I've already said about 5 times Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talon Posted September 24, 2004 Author #41 Share Posted September 24, 2004 Berlin bans extreme right march The Berlin authorities have banned a march through the German capital by the far-right National Democratic Party (NPD), planned for Saturday. "Anyone who uses incitement to separate people may not demonstrate in Berlin," said the city's interior minister Erhart Koerting. The NPD picked up 9.2% of the vote in recent state elections in Saxony. Its mottos for the Berlin march were to be "Berlin must stay German" and "Against Islamic centres in the city". The NPD's success in Saxony meant it gained seats in a German state assembly for the first time since 1968. The German government has described the NPD as a latter-day version of Hitler's Nazi Party and tried to ban it last year - a move rejected by the constitutional court. Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder faces key local council elections in North-Rhine Westphalia on Sunday - Germany's most populous state. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3687488.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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