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Karlis

Marine Sgt. Gary Stein faces discharge

70 posts in this topic

This administration is evil. And people should be scared, and angry. This needs attention. Thats like saying people who voiced hatred of Hilter did so just to make people scared. No they did so cause Hilter was evil, and there was good reason to be scared.

Many service members did march on Washington to endorce Ron Paul. Thats basicaly the same as Marching to remove 0bama. Sure they havent takin up arms. And I pray it never comes to that. But that doesnt mean they dont see the hand writting on the wall so to speak. When 70% of military political donations go to Ron Paul, you know something is up. Most of the military feels exactly like this soldier feels.

Keep in mind, many prior and retired military can and do wear their uniforms or parts of them. If there were ANY active duty military members there "in uniform", representing Ron Paul as a military member, they are pushing the envelope of the UCMJ.

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Not really. Ive seen service members live on CNN in uniform endorcing Ron Paul. Heck thousands of them marched to the white house, many in uniform to endorce Ron Paul. Its because the machine as become so odious that to not stand against it would be the same as the nazi's who claimed they were just following orders.

And as you can see here:

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/30/army-reserve-reprimands-soldier-who-backed-ron-paul/

they also are getting their fingers clapped. And that is not unique to the Obama administration, that happened under any administration I can remember. If you dabble in politics as military you face disciplinary action. Period.

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Those are not the words you bolded from my comment.

Im not trying to make a conspiracy about him knowing anything. Im just asking what he does know that would make him say such a thing. And there is nothing absurd about that. Of course he specificaly meantioned 0bama. He is the commander and chief. Now if there was reason to believe he would follow a unlawful order from another president, Id be with you. But I see no evidence of that.

Also the things he meantioned in regard to disobeying orders are not up for interpretation. If he was ordered to do any of the things meantioned it would be without a doubt a unlawful order. His consideration is not relevent when it comes to things like disarming the American people. Its as black and white as it gets.

He violated the UCMJ, after being warned. He's lucky he got a warning.

Initially, he claimed he wouldn't follow orders because he disagreed. He was ordered to change that to "unlawful" orders.

You simply do not do what he did, period.

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And as you can see here:

http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/03/30/army-reserve-reprimands-soldier-who-backed-ron-paul/

they also are getting their fingers clapped. And that is not unique to the Obama administration, that happened under any administration I can remember. If you dabble in politics as military you face disciplinary action. Period.

Oh Im sure. Punnishing the military into obediance has to be the priority of any criminal administration, or even a ligit administration (not that one has existed in our life times). The military is thier key to retaining power. If the powers that be ever did decide to do something like disarm the American people, it probably wouldnt even be our military. It would be NATO with only proven loyal US soldiers as part of the campaign. Heck they would probably start a huge war else where so our troops would be busy and far away.

Again (for the FORTH time) I ask, why shouldnt the powers that be be held to the same standard?

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Oh Im sure. Punnishing the military into obediance has to be the priority of any criminal administration, or even a ligit administration (not that one has existed in our life times). The military is thier key to retaining power. If the powers that be ever did decide to do something like disarm the American people, it probably wouldnt even be our military. It would be NATO with only proven loyal US soldiers as part of the campaign. Heck they would probably start a huge war else where so our troops would be busy and far away.

Again (for the FORTH time) I ask, why shouldnt the powers that be be held to the same standard?

Ok, lets get this straight: The military is there to serve ALL, not the right, not the left. Therefore the military has to remain NEUTRAL because there is no room for discussion once the orders come, you obey and go or you disobey and face the music.

Any attempt, no matter if by the right or the left (and there have been plenty of both) members in the military is countered with swift disciplinary action. Nobody forces you to be in the military but it expected of all to obey the rules once in... or you are on your way to a swift out.

Really very simple.

I would like to see you with all that engagement if the perpetrator would be Muslim proclaiming he would only follow Muslim orders.

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Oh Im sure. Punnishing the military into obediance has to be the priority of any criminal administration, or even a ligit administration (not that one has existed in our life times). The military is thier key to retaining power. If the powers that be ever did decide to do something like disarm the American people, it probably wouldnt even be our military. It would be NATO with only proven loyal US soldiers as part of the campaign. Heck they would probably start a huge war else where so our troops would be busy and far away.

Again (for the FORTH time) I ask, why shouldnt the powers that be be held to the same standard?

Because they didn't enlist or agree to a commission. However...I do think the Commander in Chief SHOULD be held to the same standards as the military he commands.

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I've read that there was a time in the US Army when the Officer Corps DID NOT VOTE so as to remain as non partisan as possible.

A good idea.

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This administration is evil. And people should be scared, and angry. This needs attention. Thats like saying people who voiced hatred of Hilter did so just to make people scared. No they did so cause Hilter was evil, and there was good reason to be scared.

Many service members did march on Washington to endorce Ron Paul. Thats basicaly the same as Marching to remove 0bama. Sure they havent takin up arms. And I pray it never comes to that. But that doesnt mean they dont see the hand writting on the wall so to speak. When 70% of military political donations go to Ron Paul, you know something is up. Most of the military feels exactly like this soldier feels.

Preacherman you might want to take a look around the world from time to time. The US government doesn't come close to evil. There are literally millions upon millions of people who would give anything to "suffer" under the "evil" you do.

And if the entire administration is evil in your view then I'm afraid you're going to need to resort to violence. Because it's looking like Obama will freely and legally win the next election. Nothing will really change but I doubt you believe the that since you seem to view all non-Paul politicans as just waiting for a chance to to suck the marrow from people's bones. And just because Paul is getting most of the military donations (not surprising since he wants the military to hang out at home) doesn't mean 70% of the military supports him. I'm sure a lot do but I doubt it's that uniform.

By the by, holding the view that everyone other than the guy you want elected is evil is a very unhealthy outlook. It's that kind of crap that starts civil wars.

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This has nothing to do with mistakes. This has to do with our government willfuly violating the very document they swore to protect. It isnt a matter of interpretation. Cause the constitution leaves no room for half the freedom stripping legislation brought on by this and other administrations. Why dont you hold this administration to the same standards you hold for this soldier? Who technicaly did nothing wrong

When you have to add "technically" to your statement it means you aren't looking at it straight on. The military has a very strict rule about chain of command. He knows this. He's trying to be in the military but play by his own rules. I would never join the military because I wouldn't want to give up my autonomy. When you do join the military it's part of the deal. It has to be part of the deal due to the nature of the beast. If he doesn't want to deal with it then he can ask for a discharge. You can't be in the military and reject military code of conduct citing your constitutional rights. If you feel that way, don't join the military. It's plain and simple.

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Marine who criticized Obama says hearing board ignored law:

The Marine sergeant facing discharge because of critical comments about President Obama says the board that recommended his dismissal ignored the law and instead relied on "personal opinion."

"I believe it was more based on personal opinion on the three members than it was based on the legalities of the case," Sgt. Gary Stein told CNN in an interview Tuesday. "They denied four expert witnesses that were there to talk about the legalities.... They didn't even want to hear or take written testimony from them."

After a lengthy hearing Thursday, the Administrative Separation Board at Camp Pendleton voted 3-0 to recommend that Stein be ousted and given an other-than-honorable discharge. Those decisions are up to Brig. Gen. Daniel Yoo, commanding officer of Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego. ...

Source

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Marine who criticized Obama says hearing board ignored law:

The Marine sergeant facing discharge because of critical comments about President Obama says the board that recommended his dismissal ignored the law and instead relied on "personal opinion."

"I believe it was more based on personal opinion on the three members than it was based on the legalities of the case," Sgt. Gary Stein told CNN in an interview Tuesday. "They denied four expert witnesses that were there to talk about the legalities.... They didn't even want to hear or take written testimony from them."

After a lengthy hearing Thursday, the Administrative Separation Board at Camp Pendleton voted 3-0 to recommend that Stein be ousted and given an other-than-honorable discharge. Those decisions are up to Brig. Gen. Daniel Yoo, commanding officer of Marine Corps Recruit Depot San Diego. ...

Source

Ho-hum. I guess he can sell that one only to those who don't know how the UCMJ works.

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Ho-hum. I guess he can sell that one only to those who don't know how the UCMJ works.

Yeah, the board has no need to follow the "law", that's not their purpose. They adhere to the UCMJ, period. The Marines only option would be to request a Courts Martial.

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Yeah, the board has no need to follow the "law", that's not their purpose. They adhere to the UCMJ, period. The Marines only option would be to request a Courts Martial.

846. ARTICLE 46. Opportunity to obtain witnesses and other evidence

07. Trial Procedure

The trial counsel, the defense counsel, and the court-martial shall have equal opportunity to obtain witnesses and other evidence in accordance with such regulations as the President may prescribe. Process issued in court-martial cases to compel witnesses to appear and testify and to compel the production of other evidence shall be similar to that which courts of the United States having criminal jurisdiction may lawfully issue and shall run to any part of the United States, or the Commonwealths and possessions.

By not allowing legal whitness/testimony they did not follow the UCMJ.

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By not allowing legal whitness/testimony they did not follow the UCMJ.

This thing did not go to trial but was decided by a reenlistment panel under Art. 15, therefore Art. 46 does not apply. Now, if Stein insists he can get a court martial to decide the case. It just will be longer but I don't see a different outcome.

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This thing did not go to trial but was decided by a reenlistment panel under Art. 15, therefore Art. 46 does not apply. Now, if Stein insists he can get a court martial to decide the case. It just will be longer but I don't see a different outcome.

Article 15 of the UCMJ does not allow for the uncharacterized, other than honorable, honorable or any other type of discharge of a soldier.

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By not allowing legal whitness/testimony they did not follow the UCMJ.

It never went to a Courts Martial. There is no requirement to call or hear witnesses. I sure hope you aren't military...

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Article 15 of the UCMJ does not allow for the uncharacterized, other than honorable, honorable or any other type of discharge of a soldier.

You do NOT need to go to a Courts Martial to get the "Big Chicken Dinner" as they call it.

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You do NOT need to go to a Courts Martial to get the "Big Chicken Dinner" as they call it.

An Administrative Separation Board is a "Special Court Martial". And it is a legal action... thus you are entitled to

A lawyer qualified and certified under Article 27(B), Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), assigned to represent a service member during

separation processing, or a civilian lawyer retained at the member’s expense.

An Administrative Separation Board is a legal event, and yes, you are entitled to question the nature of the discharge as well as bring forth professional/expert opinion on the nature of the discharge. Otherwise, the lawyer/counsel would not be needed. It would be the marine walking into the room and the board saying "Alright, we dont like you, you screwed up, ****!"

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Article 15 of the UCMJ does not allow for the uncharacterized, other than honorable, honorable or any other type of discharge of a soldier.

In this case it is not even a discharge, it is that they recommend that he cannot re-enlist and, should he insist on reenlisting they recommend that he gets a Non-Honorable Discharge, which is not quite the same. All covered under Art. 15. And the Administrative Separation Board does not have to hear anybody.

Should he insist this goes to court martial where a normal trial will be held. The results are already known because no matter what he or any character witness wants to allege nobody disputes the charges, which is Bad Conduct, and that leads to a dishonorable discharge (and I can't remember any justifiable modifiers for bad conduct). The Administrative Separation Board can only recommend, you can take it or go to trial, for which case they also issue a recommendation for the court which as far as I remember is always followed, unless it is shown that he was not the perpetrator, which in this case is cut and dry.

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An Administrative Separation Board is a "Special Court Martial". And it is a legal action... thus you are entitled to

An Administrative Separation Board is a legal event, and yes, you are entitled to question the nature of the discharge as well as bring forth professional/expert opinion on the nature of the discharge. Otherwise, the lawyer/counsel would not be needed. It would be the marine walking into the room and the board saying "Alright, we dont like you, you screwed up, ****!"

http://www.marines.mil/unit/29palms/SJA/pages/ds_adminsep.aspx

Administrative Separation

In General, You Have the Right to:

Consult with counsel (i.e. a lawyer)

Request a hearing before an Administrative Separation Board

Present written matters to the Separation Authority in rebuttal to your proposed separation (can include character statements, copies of awards, a personal statement you write, etc.)

Obtain copies of documents that will be forwarded to the Separation Authority

Waive any of your rights after being afforded an opportunity to consult with counsel

The AdSep Process

An administrative separation (“AdSep”) is the way the Marine Corps fires people. It is not punitive in nature like a court-martial. It is a purely administrative proceeding. The only question in an AdSep is whether you will remain in the Marine Corps and (if you are actually separated) what the characterization of your service will be. You cannot be sent to the brig, put on restriction, or forfeit rank or pay at an AdSep. You also cannot receive a Bad Conduct Discharge at an AdSep.

How do I present my own evidence to the Board? Evidence that is presented on your behalf can be almost anything. Typical examples include:

Witnesses who will come to the board and testify on your behalf

Character statements from your supervisors

Letters from those that know you back home

Awards

Certificates

Academic records

YOU will be responsible for gathering this evidence. The defense attorney or clerk will not do it for you. When you have committed some kind of misconduct, this evidence on your behalf will be the only thing that can save you at the AdSep board.

The board will hear both sides of the case and will then make a recommendation about separation and characterization to the separation authority (your Commanding General), who has the final say as to whether you will get to stay in or whether you get kicked out. Even thought the separation authority, a General, has the final say, the board’s recommendation is important because the General usually follows the board’s advice.

As you can see, it is NOT a Courts Martial. You are mistaken. It's an ADMIN issue.

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