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But Really, Why Was Jesus Crucified?


Ben Masada

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Amazing...

Let me quote Judaism 101...

The Messianic Idea in Judaism

Belief in the eventual coming of the mashiach is a basic and fundamental part of traditional Judaism. It is part of Rambam's 13 Principles of Faith, the minimum requirements of Jewish belief. In the Shemoneh Esrei prayer, recited three times daily, we pray for all of the elements of the coming of the mashiach: ingathering of the exiles; restoration of the religious courts of justice; an end of wickedness, sin and heresy; reward to the righteous; rebuilding of Jerusalem; restoration of the line of King David; and restoration of Temple service.

Modern scholars suggest that the messianic concept was introduced later in the history of Judaism, during the age of the prophets. They note that the messianic concept is not explicitly mentioned anywhere in the Torah (the first five books of the Bible).

However, traditional Judaism maintains that the messianic idea has always been a part of Judaism. The mashiach is not mentioned explicitly in the Torah, because the Torah was written in terms that all people could understand, and the abstract concept of a distant, spiritual, future reward was beyond the comprehension of some people. However, the Torah contains several references to "the End of Days" (acharit ha-yamim), which is the time of the mashiach; thus, the concept of mashiach was known in the most ancient times.

The term "mashiach" literally means "the anointed one," and refers to the ancient practice of anointing kings with oil when they took the throne. The mashiach is the one who will be anointed as king in the End of Days.

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

It has been said that in every generation, a person is born with the potential to be the mashiach. If the time is right for the messianic age within that person's lifetime, then that person will be the mashiach. But if that person dies before he completes the mission of the mashiach, then that person is not the mashiach.

When Will the Mashiach Come?

There are a wide variety of opinions on the subject of when the mashiach will come. Some of Judaism's greatest minds have cursed those who try to predict the time of the mashiach's coming, because errors in such predictions could cause people to lose faith in the messianic idea or in Judaism itself. This actually happened in the 17th century, when Shabbatai Tzvi claimed to be the mashiach. When Tzvi converted to Islam under threat of death, many Jews converted with him. Nevertheless, this prohibition has not stopped anyone from speculating about the time when the mashiach will come.

Although some scholars believed that G-d has set aside a specific date for the coming of the mashiach, most authority suggests that the conduct of mankind will determine the time of the mashiach's coming. In general, it is believed that the mashiach will come in a time when he is most needed (because the world is so sinful), or in a time when he is most deserved (because the world is so good). For example, each of the following has been suggested as the time when the mashiach will come:

if Israel repented a single day;

if Israel observed a single Shabbat properly;

if Israel observed two Shabbats in a row properly;

in a generation that is totally innocent or totally guilty;

in a generation that loses hope;

in a generation where children are totally disrespectful towards their parents and elders;

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish people by bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

So if that is what the majority of Jews believe. That leaves you as an exception to the rule doesn't it?

Sorry Jorel, but I have to say this: You have not understood your own quoted search. There is nowhere in this post of yours above any idea about an individual Messiah. The idea of a coming Messiah is the same as the return of the Jewish People from exile into the Land of Israel. (Ezek. 37:12)

Ben

Edited by Ben Masada
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Sorry Jorel, but I have to say this: You have not understood your own quoted search. There is nowhere in this post of yours above any idea about an individual Messiah. The idea of a coming Messiah is the same as the return of the Jewish People from exile into the Land of Israel. (Ezek. 37:12)

Ben

Funny I always thought my English was pretty good, considering I was once taught it... 3rd person singular "he"... go back and check it for yourself...

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Obeying God is not obeying the LAW... The verse you quotes talks of obeying God, for that he has to have a relationship with you, speak with you... It was Abrahams obedience to God that was credited to him as righteousness.

In Abrahams time THERE WAS NO LAW.

Wow! That's terrible! Instead of quoting, I am going to type down the text from now on. "And in your descendants, all the nations of the earth shall

find blessing - and all this because you have OBEYED MY COMMAND." (Gen. 22:18) God's Law was only brought into writing form by Moses at Sinai, but it

always existed since Abraham.

Ben

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I'm pretty sure I made a distinction between secular and religious. But you don't really seem interested in that. I'm leaving this debate, it's obvious you really don't want to engage in discussion.

~ PA

Discussion is not really what concerns you, but to make me take your word for it. I can't. Jews have a mind of their own. If you don't have what it

takes, you will get nowhere.

Ben

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Unless they are already born of that tribe, by blood.

Your problem is simple, there is no way that a child of the same tribe, who is adopted, loses his inheritance. Not even the tribal inheritance.

Right, but Mary was not of the Tribe of Judah; and you have not proved it in the NT.

Ben

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Wow! That's terrible! Instead of quoting, I am going to type down the text from now on. "And in your descendants, all the nations of the earth shall

find blessing - and all this because you have OBEYED MY COMMAND." (Gen. 22:18) God's Law was only brought into writing form by Moses at Sinai, but it

always existed since Abraham.

Ben

Actually no it didn't... Gods commands at that time were given directly or through intermediaries... this plainly shows that you read it but cannot bring yourself to accept it.

Let me give you a plain example... The bible clearly and openly forbids marriage between brothers and sisters, but mankind could not have existed without it.

Adam and Eve had children, according to the law, none of them could possibly marry the other... thank goodness they did or we wouldn't be here.

The Law did not exist before it was handed down to Moses, it is what is called the Mosaic Covenant, or the Law of Moses. This is basic stuff, even your Rabbi would tell you as much.

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Funny I always thought my English was pretty good, considering I was once taught it... 3rd person singular "he"... go back and check it for yourself...

Now, here is how Israel is "he." "Israel is My son; let My son go that "HE" may serve Me." That's in Exodus 4:22,23. And that's Israel, the

collective. The whole Jewish People.

Ben

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Actually no it didn't... Gods commands at that time were given directly or through intermediaries... this plainly shows that you read it but cannot bring yourself to accept it.

Let me give you a plain example... The bible clearly and openly forbids marriage between brothers and sisters, but mankind could not have existed without it.

Adam and Eve had children, according to the law, none of them could possibly marry the other... thank goodness they did or we wouldn't be here.

The Law did not exist before it was handed down to Moses, it is what is called the Mosaic Covenant, or the Law of Moses. This is basic stuff, even your Rabbi would tell you as much.

The Law always existed in God Himself. Read the whole Psalm 119. That's the longest Psalm in the Tanach. But you will understand. Well, will you? At

this point, I doubt anything about you.

Ben

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Right, but Mary was not of the Tribe of Judah; and you have not proved it in the NT.

Ben

Well I pretty much demonstrated that she wasn't of Levi, thus we go back to basics. Women were encouraged to marry within their own tribes, especially if they were the older daughter... or in this case a single daughter.

Logic dictates that Mary would be marrying within her own tribe. The geneological table, supports that view. It is simply your own choice to dibelieve it. There are no grounds that you can use that allows you to support the contrary.

Since you say you are a man of logic, then that should be quite acceptable... unless...

Edited by Jor-el
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Now, here is how Israel is "he." "Israel is My son; let My son go that "HE" may serve Me." That's in Exodus 4:22,23. And that's Israel, the

collective. The whole Jewish People.

Ben

Why capitalize it? To make a point? Here are a few of my own....

  • The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5).
  • The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David).
  • He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5).
  • He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example.
  • He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel.
  • He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
  • But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

You missed those didn't you? ^_^

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You have all the right in the world to believe whatever you want. I believe what is written in Numbers 12:6. When I am in doubt, I use metaphorical

language and find the truth right there smiling at me.

Ben

Whatever makes you happy Ben..............I just believe that God wants man to discover him for themselves and not adopt other peoples word for it... Just do it alone.. not go on a search...God comes to you.. not needing a middle man..I cannot follow any religion that is man made..I like to do things for myself.. Never will I take on someone else's personal experiences or words..Too many in the past knew that religious experiences claims made, many will listen and follow and was a way to control others, that is why so many Ifeel pretended to have had God speaks through them, to get enough followers and bingo you have a whole new faith . That's my belief... But you can do what suits you.. Each to their own....We will do what we each feel is right for us...

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Actually no it didn't... Gods commands at that time were given directly or through intermediaries... this plainly shows that you read it but cannot bring yourself to accept it.

Let me give you a plain example... The bible clearly and openly forbids marriage between brothers and sisters, but mankind could not have existed without it.

Adam and Eve had children, according to the law, none of them could possibly marry the other... thank goodness they did or we wouldn't be here.

The Law did not exist before it was handed down to Moses, it is what is called the Mosaic Covenant, or the Law of Moses. This is basic stuff, even your Rabbi would tell you as much.

Why do you seem to insist that you are the only one who can be right?

You're trying to tell actual Jews what Judaism teaches. Do you really fail to see the absurdity in that?

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Why capitalize it? To make a point? Here are a few of my own....

  • The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5).
  • The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David).
  • He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5).
  • He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example.
  • He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel.
  • He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15).
  • But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

You missed those didn't you? ^_^

And you fail to see why the Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah? Jesus certainly wasn't "a great military leader". And don't try and say that he'll cover all the things he missed when he returns. He'll not be returning. And at the very least, you'd think that something about his dying, allegedly rising from the dead, ascending into the stratosphere, and then apparently returning more than two thousands years later would be mentioned somewhere in messianic prophecy. Is isn't. None of those things are prophesied. Well, not by the Jews anyway. If you want to include the tales of Dionysus, Horus, Osiris, Krishna, Buddha, Kalki, etc. in this whole scheme. But then, those are heathen beliefs, aren't they?

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And you fail to see why the Jews reject Jesus of Nazareth as their Messiah? Jesus certainly wasn't "a great military leader". And don't try and say that he'll cover all the things he missed when he returns. He'll not be returning. And at the very least, you'd think that something about his dying, allegedly rising from the dead, ascending into the stratosphere, and then apparently returning more than two thousands years later would be mentioned somewhere in messianic prophecy. Is isn't. None of those things are prophesied. Well, not by the Jews anyway. If you want to include the tales of Dionysus, Horus, Osiris, Krishna, Buddha, Kalki, etc. in this whole scheme. But then, those are heathen beliefs, aren't they?

Which is not what my particular conversation is about... you have your views, I have mine on the subject of whether Jesus was or wasn't the Messiah. The point is that the Messiah is a human being, not an abstract metaphor of a nation.

Edited by Jor-el
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Well I pretty much demonstrated that she wasn't of Levi, thus we go back to basics. Women were encouraged to marry within their own tribes, especially if they were the older daughter... or in this case a single daughter.

Logic dictates that Mary would be marrying within her own tribe. The geneological table, supports that view. It is simply your own choice to dibelieve it. There are no grounds that you can use that allows you to support the contrary.

Since you say you are a man of logic, then that should be quite acceptable... unless...

It should be quite clear that Mary was of the tribe of Levi. All of her close relatives that are mentioned in the text are Levites; for example, Elizabeth and Zacharias. Zacharias was a priest--and after all, only Levites can be priests. It is also noted in Luke 1:5-7 that Elizabeth too was descended from Aaron. Mary would of course have been a Levite, and there is no contrary evidence to challenge this view.

The real question is: are you a man of logic? I shouldn't be surprised if you are not; after all, you deem yourself the "Knight of the Most High God". How logical.... and humble, of you.

Which is not what my particular conversation is about... you have your views, I have mine on the subject of whether Jesus was or wasn't the Messiah. The point is that the Messiah is a human being, not an abstract metaphor of a nation.

That is perhaps the case.

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Why do you seem to insist that you are the only one who can be right?

You're trying to tell actual Jews what Judaism teaches. Do you really fail to see the absurdity in that?

No, I'm demonstrating what Ben should already know. Much of what he accepts does not conform to Judaic beliefs as they are expressed by the Jews themselves the world over.

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It should be quite clear that Mary was of the tribe of Levi. All of her close relatives that are mentioned in the text are Levites; for example, Elizabeth and Zacharias. Zacharias was a priest--and after all, only Levites can be priests. It is also noted in Luke 1:5-7 that Elizabeth too was descended from Aaron. Mary would of course have been a Levite, and there is no contrary evidence to challenge this view.

The real question is: are you a man of logic? I shouldn't be surprised if you are not; after all, you deem yourself the "Knight of the Most High God". How logical.... and humble, of you.

Should it?

Please be so kind as to demonstrate it... it would also be a good idea to backtrack a little and find out why I stated the above.

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No, I'm demonstrating what Ben should already know. Much of what he accepts does not conform to Judaic beliefs as they are expressed by the Jews themselves the world over.

And you would know this... how? Did you happen to ask Jews "the world over" what their views on the subject are?

My point was that making empirical statements about the beliefs of Judaism to a Jew is a tall order.

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Should it?

Please be so kind as to demonstrate it... it would also be a good idea to backtrack a little and find out why I stated the above.

The burden of proof is no longer on me. I presented my evidence--and did so originally for the sake of refuting the erroneous ideas I have seen you attempt to propose. I have called you out to present some concrete evidence for your claims; preferably evidence founded in accurate, factual information.

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And you would know this... how? Did you happen to ask Jews "the world over" what their views on the subject are?

My point was that making empirical statements about the beliefs of Judaism to a Jew is a tall order.

Their views are extensively documented... I quoted from one of their sites. Now an individual might have a different view, but their view is not the mainstream view that reflects the character of their beliefs.

Judaism holds to a number of givens, one is the bodily ressurection, the other is that the Messiah is a man. I am speaking of only those issues that have been discussed here on this thread.

Ben accepts neither resurrection nor a Messiah in the form of a human being. Israel is the Messiah.

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The burden of proof is no longer on me. I presented my evidence--and did so originally for the sake of refuting the erroneous ideas I have seen you attempt to propose. I have called you out to present some concrete evidence for your claims; preferably evidence founded in accurate, factual information.

This thread has a number of pages, which you did not read or you would already have found my refutation.

See: http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=225181&view=findpost&p=4262250

Edited by Jor-el
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This thread has a number of pages, which you did not read or you would already have found my refutation.

I did find your "refutation", and it is inadequate. The logic is flawed, the arguments internally untenable, and the conclusions unsupported by the evidence.

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I did find your "refutation", and it is inadequate. The logic is flawed, the arguments internally untenable, and the conclusions unsupported by the evidence.

BS... :lol:

My refutation is quite simple, direct and supported. The translation is wrong.

The word cousin is not the word in the verse you and Ben quoted... The word is kin.

syggenēs

Pronunciation

sün-ge-nā's (Key)

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

The words kinsman kinswoman would apply, So would the term "family member".

But in no way can it be rendered "cousin".

As I said, if I replaced cousin with Aunt, who is also a family member and kinswoman, you could not oppose it.

Now how exactly are these two women realated again? ;)

Edited by Jor-el
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BS... :lol:

My refutation is quite simple, direct and supported. The translation is wrong.

The word cousin is not the word in the verse you and Ben quoted... The word is kin.

syggenēs

Pronunciation

sün-ge-nā's (Key)

Outline of Biblical Usage:

1) of the same kin, akin to, related by blood

2) in a wider sense, of the same nation, a fellow countryman

The words kinsman kinswoman would apply, So would the term "family member".

But in no way can it be rendered "cousin".

As I said, if I replaced cousin with Aunt, who is also a family member and kinswoman, you could not oppose it.

Now how exactly are these two women realated again? ;)

Regardless of how exactly they were related, you still haven't shown sufficient evidence for the proposition that Mary was of the tribe of Judah.

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Do you see? You admit yourself that there was no eyewitness to the resurrection of Jesus. It means that it is all a matter of faith; a personal view. Even the apostles of Jesus themselves, when the women went to them with the news about the resurrection of Jesus, they took the women as speaking nonsense and an idle tale. The text even says that they did not believe the women.

Read Luke 24:10,11. Do you have any idea why? Because Jesus had never told them any thing about his resurrection. During three years and a half with Jesus, they had never heard about such a thing. ...

.Do you want to know why?... Because they were Jewish men, whose Faith was Judaism. And according to Judaism, there is no such a thing as bodily resurrection. So, where did the idea of Jesus' resurrection come from? Paul, that's the one who, in a letter to his disciple

Timothy, confessed that it was according to his gospel that Jesus had resurrected. Read 2 Timothy 2:8. Why according to his gospel? Because it is only obvious that there was another gospel being

preached at the same time in which teaching, the resurrection of Jesus did not figure.

What evidence can I show for this other gospel? .....Again, by Paul himself, when he referred to "the other gospel" in Galatians 1:6-8. What gospel was he talking about? The gospel of the Nazarenes, Apostles of Jesus himself.... And this other gospel, Paul added that he was ready to curse it even if an angel had brought it from heaven.... Amazing, isn't it?

Ben

Actually it is true ( the story telling part ) there was never any eye witnesses.. that's how the story goes...And the part of your post I highlight in bold, it does not surprise me... Women were so little thought of by the sounds of it...

The rest of your post.. I find very interesting Ben......... But can you do me a small favour..? Space out out a little more.. my eyes cannot focus on text all stuck together... I would like to read more on this from you...but only if you can space it out like I have above...I spaced out your quote for me to be able to read it better...and when I did, I liked what I was reading...

It would be so helpful...and I would be grateful too

Thanks in advance...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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