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An Answer for Gunter Grass


and-then

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That is just your opinion, of course.

Not just mine.

"For over 60 years, Palestinians have paid with their lives, liberties and homeland for a European crime with which they had absolutely nothing to do."

Quote from Hamid Dabashi, Professor of Iranian Studies and Comparative Literature at Columbia University in New York.

Source: "Günter Grass, Israel and the crime of poetry"

Read full essay here:

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/04/2012498535088416.html

Also watch this video:

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So the answer is to displace the Jews from land that was historically theirs, which they have made to prosper and have them wander in the world again? To leave them vulnerable in their scattered condition to real enemies and hatreds that have plagued them these 2000 years? This is not some Columbia debate, Otharus, this is the destiny of an entire family of millions of Jews. Leaving aside the fact that this poem was written by a man who was an unrepentant SS soldier, can you not see the uniqueness of the Israeli-Palestinian situation? For centuries when an aggressor lost land in war...it was LOST. In this so called modern era apparently a group of nations can attempt to destroy a country multiple times and they receive no real sanction. They lose nothing in the attempt except blood and treasure. What was the purpose of a UN if not to enforce rules among nations against such continual aggression? This man sums up the attitude of the world community regarding the State of Israel: Next year in Jerusalem. It is hypocrisy on a global scale and it will not stand. The "Palestinians" could long ago have been absorbed into TransJordan and been given lands to compensate them for a seizure that had many centuries of precedent. If the ancient hatred between Arab and Jew did not exist then they would have done. But that hatred does exist and it will lead the world to the edge of an abyss soon. Because people like yourself and Gunter Grass keep banging a drum to remind people how heinous the treatment of the "Palestinians" is while ignoring Syria, the Balkans,the oppressed in a handful of Arab countries.... no, it is only Israel that needs to be set straight for the world to be made content. The truth is that these people will remain in the land but this irrational impulse by the world community will cause a great war and after all the blood and treasure are lost...they will still be in the land. I'm no prophet but I do believe in prophecy and whether you do or not, if you live long enough, you will see that what I'm saying is correct.

Edited by and then
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wat1 verstaan2 worden moet

Wie3 zionistenkritiek4 bestrijdt,

zaait5 Jodenhaat6.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

1 "wat moet worden" = what must be {German: was werden muss}

2 "verstaan" = heard/ understood {German: verstanden/ gehört}

3 "wie bestrijdt" = who fights/ combats/ suppresses {German: wer kämpft}

4 "zionistenkritiek" = criticism of zionism {German: Zionistenkritik}

5 "zaait" = (he) sows {German: (er) sät}

6 "Jodenhaat" = hate projected on Jews {German: Judenhass}

(variation on "who sows, will harvest")

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Are you serious? You tell me that in supporting the State of Israel I'm setting the stage for them to be hated? If that's what you're saying I say to you they couldn't possibly be hated more than they already are. The only thing that stands between them and annihilation is God.

You are either extremely cynical and think I'm stupid, or you are a bit simple minded yourself.

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You tell me that in supporting the State of Israel I'm setting the stage for them to be hated?

"supporting the state of Israel" is not the same as "suppressing criticism of Zionism".

And I was not only referring to you specifically, but to anyone (including non-Jews) whon suggests that anti-Zionists (or people who criticise the state of Israel) are antisemites (Jew-haters).

Edited by Otharus
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You are either extremely cynical and think I'm stupid, or you are a bit simple minded yourself.

I don't think you are stupid, but simple minded, yes.

Edited by Otharus
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If that's what you're saying I say to you they couldn't possibly be hated more than they already are.

You must be very naive.

There are still crowds who believe in Zionist propaganda.

Imagine what will happen when they wake up.

Edited by Otharus
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The only thing that stands between them and annihilation is God.

You must be confusing God with money.

Edited by Otharus
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You must be confusing God with money.

Nah, that's something I never do. Your sentiment regarding Israel is as apparent as mine. After they dispense with the next round of attacks and seize more land for settlements you might try a medicine for hypertension. Israel haters never seem to have the capacity to learn. They are consistent though....I will say that for them.

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I am not an "Israel hater", I just think its politics are criminal, and I do not like that 'my country' is accessory to that.

(I added this video, because I think the second half is relevant for the discussion here.)

Edited by Otharus
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Israel as a nation was in fact born in a single day. Prior to May 18,1948 there were many Jews living in Palestine but there was no nation of Israel until the declaration.

The "self fulfilling" aspect of prophecy does not disqualify it from being a fulfillment of prophecy. There is no requirement in scripture that fulfillment be "miraculous".

Israel's politics are , at times, unfair to the Palestinians. They seize Palestinian land for settlement without paying for it and yes that is theft. They take advantage of the simmering warfare and apparent hopelessness of ever finding a just solution and "settle" areas because the government looks the other way and is accomplice to that action.

Israel has returned land for a promise of peace. They gave back the entire Sinai to Egypt. They gave back parts of the WB to Jordan for peace. But the wars that preceded them even having this control over that territory were begun by Arabs whose stated goal was the destruction of the Jewish State. I'll repeat that. Prior to Israel occupying a centimeter of Arab land other than what was given in the mandate, the Arabs decided they could not allow a Jewish State to exist and that they would literally drive the Jews into the sea. I won't bore you with further details as I'm sure you are aware of them already. The "Palestinians" are just a group of Arabs who were on the land prior to the mandate. They were given land for a home in Trans Jordan's Hashemite Kingdom. They were coaxed/coerced into staying in refugee camps by their "brothers" as a goad to the international community to make it possible to destroy Israel at some point. Your views on the accuracy of prophecy notwithstanding, Israel has shown itself to be very tenacious in it's hold on it's homeland.

Another "vague sounding" prophecy that I think will find fulfillment in the coming months is the Psalm 83 war. A seer under the reign of King David named Asaph wrote Psalm 83.

In the Psalm Asaph was imploring God to strike at the peoples surrounding Israel at that time because they were plotting to remove even the name of Israel from memory. IOW to utterly destroy them. The people groups occupied the lands that today are Egypt,Saudi Arabia,Jordan,Lebanon and Syria. Other peoples mentioned are the people of Philistia(Palestinians today) and those who make up Hezbollah. In the Psalm the writer narrates what is to happen to them and uses a couple of battles that happened to Gideon during the time of the Judges of Israel as an example of how thorough the defeat would be. These nations are all to be destroyed. While there has been ongoing unrest for decades in this region it is only since the Arab spring that it seems possible for the stage to be set for such a battle. It could be a planned attack against Israel but I'd guess it will be more spontaneous. Syria perhaps or Egypt, initiates the battles and the rest of the countries are drawn in piecemeal. When Israel has soundly defeated these enemies in greatest proximity it sets up the conditions for the fulfillment of another, better known prophecy Ezekiel 38/39 the Gog/MaGog war. It is an exciting time to be a Christian. Many of us believe the rapture takes place prior to the Gog/MaGog war. I'm sorry that you feel the way you feel towards God's chosen people. He said He would bless those that bless Israel. And He would curse those who curse Israel. I believe God.

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I believe God.

Before we continue, let's make sure we're talking about the same God.

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Thanks for posting that, it was interesting. I'm not sure what purpose to the discussion though? Am I to have a miraculous epiphany and reject my concept of God because the historical account shows evidence of an evolution of the idea of "god"?

I am not responsible to be able to explain the Deity to anyone, only my belief in the Deity. Most here find that foolish....O K. If you reject my conception of God it causes me no harm and I have no ill feelings toward you for it. I believe there has been sufficient evidence of past prophecy to give me confidence of future fulfillment. I rest on that promise and wait to see it fulfilled. If you can explain why all the indications are that the world may slip into a catastrophic war based on tensions in the ME and specifically centered on 2 peoples arguing over 35 acres on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem; and do so in a way that precludes any validity to the issues raised in scripture, then I really would love to read such a treatise.

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You said

"He said He would bless those that bless Israel. And He would curse those who curse Israel. I believe God."

and

"I believe there has been sufficient evidence of past prophecy to give me confidence of future fulfillment. I rest on that promise and wait to see it fulfilled."

If you would have a lot of money and power, I suppose you would help make these prophecies be fulfilled.

There has been much murdering and warfare because people believed it was God's will.

Radical Muslims think likewise.

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You said

"He said He would bless those that bless Israel. And He would curse those who curse Israel. I believe God."

and

"I believe there has been sufficient evidence of past prophecy to give me confidence of future fulfillment. I rest on that promise and wait to see it fulfilled."

If you would have a lot of money and power, I suppose you would help make these prophecies be fulfilled.

There has been much murdering and warfare because people believed it was God's will.

Radical Muslims think likewise.

I'm sure they do. I do not know (very small sample) any Christians who believe that ANY act of their doing could change God's timing one nano second. In fact I think the cults of Christianity who believe such things are very rare and have no great importance save making mischief in some mean way. And if they acted in that way they would be SOUNDLY condemned by Christianity as a whole. I have never had money or power so I don't know what I would do with it, but I believe that not even the acts of the richest or most powerful of people can change the divine plan to suit a selfish desire. As to wanting to "bless" Israel, I have always considered that to be on a personal basis with person to person interactions of charity. Not blindly throwing support behind whatever policy du jour of an Israeli political group. Their politics are as screwed up as those in any other nation...because they are HUMAN.....just like the rest of us. A fact forgotten by the haters.

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