How corrupt is US democracy

[Capt Amerika]

I can hardly wait to see what the world will be like in 30 years.

Go rent "Idiocrocy"

That should pretty much sum it up.

[+OverSword]

Actually cap, you're incorrect there. Although he did temporarily pull his candidacy, after his daughter was married he rejoined the race.

from wikipedia: In the 1992 election, he received 18.9% of the popular vote, approximately 19,741,065 votes (but no electoral college votes), making him the most successful third-party presidential candidate in terms of the popular vote since Theodore Roosevelt in the 1912 election

Edited April 30, 2012 by OverSword

[Dredimus]

Yes, I have heard this argument. "Why punish someone for being sucessful?" Well first off, this is my view because I am a communitarian. I believe in sacrafice to help your community. That means the more sucessful will pay more. It is not a punishment to them as much as helping those in need. Granted I know people will take advantage of the system and that too p***es me off, but some people really do need help. It is not like the wealthy are facing hardships because of higher taxes. For many of them it MIGHT mean they have to go with brass finishes in their yahts and private jets instead of gold finishes. They drive around 100,000 dollar cars while people struggle to get a 500 dollar car. If Warren Buffet agress with paying more taxes, that is enough for me.

Also it is a myth that people who work hard will become wealthy. To make capital, one needs capital. I am not even talking about our silver spoon, old money brats but in general. Creating a business costs money, period. Many people work hard their entire lives and are still in lower classes. Their hard work does not lead them anywhere because they only make enough money to get by. A lot of this does have to do with education and as a co-worker of mine says..."Get off your lazy ass, go to college, and get a government job." Thanks for that Yoda. The problem is many people in this country do not have parents that can help them get school loans. Many do not have parents that will co-sign for loans. Many have to work full time just to have a place to live and do not have time for school. To say "just go to school" is very ignorant view that many middle and upper class Americans have. Granted I will say "well join the military." There are very few requirements to get into the military and I am not getting paid to go to school... There is also the problem of paying for college for those who worked so hard to get through it. My wife worked hard to go to a good school. She got scholarships that paid for a third of her schooling and her school loans cost us 800 dollars a month. By the time they are paid off they will be costing us 1,500 dollars a month. School loans and a mortgage will cost us nearly 3,000 a month. That is 36,000 a year just for those two things. Life is rough and it takes more than hard work. You have to be somewhere to get somewhere.

Yeah, I am against many of the things this country was founded on...Slavery, bigotry, persecution of Catholics and Jews, genocide of the American Indians, poor treatment of immigrants, lack of rights for women, just to name a few...but I have many more. The freedom you speak of is the freedom of is called tyrany of the majority (and the few rich,) not freedom for all. I would hardly consider slavery "freedom."

Yes, by my logic someone with a learning disability would not be able to vote. I mean you really want someone with a learning disability having a say in public policy and how this country is run? If you want them to vote it is because you know how to manipulate them to vote for things you believe in. Sorry but everyone is not equal and not everyone should have a say in everything. I should not have a say in how things are run at your job because changes are I have no idea how things work at your job, but are you suggesting I should have a say in it?

Yes, I know Rome fell...I am a history major...but Rome fell for a number of reasons and the existence of the United States is not even in the ball park of the Roman Empire.

The problem here is... those rich guys earned that $100,000 car... where as the "lower classes" think they are entitled to one. I, Like Capt. Amerika up there, started off in the dirt in a small town in Alabama, and over the last 20 years I have worked to where I am now. The opportunities are out there, and always have been. However, over the last few decades, the government has been more than willing to push the entitlement mentality... if you dont have it, we will give it to you.. and that has never been more evident than in the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, im all for giving some one a hand up... just not a hand out. If you want welfare/foodstamps/free utilities...etc.. work for them if you are able. I do understand that there are those who are completely unable to work and do need some type of assistance, and im fine with that. However.. im not fine with a good portion of my paycheck going to those who can and wont work, or to a government who spends it in anyway they deem fit.

You can try to tear apart the freedom in the US all you want. The only valid arguement that can be given there is... yes... you are free.. for if you had been a citizen of another country and spoke that way about your country... you would have been punished severely. Free Speech is amazing, aint it? Here, you have the FREEDOM to practive what ever religion you would like (though these days it seems that Christians are being vomited on). Here, you have the freedom to work where you want, pick your career and life goals... make your money as YOU see fit... Here, you arent working for a few grains of food instead of money... Im gonna stop beating that drum, because no matter how many times I scream it into the night you wont or cant care. Your views sound a bit more communist than communitarian to me. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". I dont share this view... nor do many of the lower, middle or upper class...

[Babe Ruth]

I was not trying to suggest that Congress can do no wrong. I think issues run deep though most politicians and our entire government. The point I was trying to make is that our president is not a dictator. It is no secret that I am a liberal but I can see both sides of an argument. I hate how everyone blames Obama and for a long time I wanted to blame Bush for things (because I am in the military and strongly against the Iraq "war") but at the same time I understand that it is the presidents right, as Commander in Chief, to send troops and start of a military conflict BUT the key point that many people fail to realize (as did I) is that congress can vote to withdrawl the troops. Bush sent them, Congress supported it. Same as Obama, Bush was not a dictator.

I cannot address your other questions specifically (well I could if I used google and winged it) because I do not know enough about that specific issue. I am not a political science major, but a history major that has dealt a good deal with the composition of the Constitution and the Constitution in regards to religion (Religious Studies is another one of my majors) and education (my 3rd major.) Other than that I only have only covered American government in a couse by that name, philosophy classes and geography classes. It is a new reading hobbie though that I would like to tackle this summer inbetween the work on my senior paper. I mean I guess that is why I have the opinion I do...I have very little education, not even a minor, in politics and government but only the liberal arts requirements and I get the impression that I am WAY ahead of the average citizen as far as understanding how things work. I guess my point is that it is not hard to become aware of the workings of our government...

And for the record...I have never voted...

I appreciate your candor and honesty. As many have said, freedom is not free. Civic duties must be performed if we have half a chance.

The point to remember is that all political power flows from We The People, and we created the government to serve us.

Yes, things are very much out of control with our government, and there are reasons and explanations for it, but I digress.

[Capt Amerika]

Actually cap, you're incorrect there. Although he did temporarily pull his candidacy, after his daughter was married he rejoined the race.

from wikipedia: In the 1992 election, he received 18.9% of the popular vote, approximately 19,741,065 votes (but no electoral college votes), making him the most successful third-party presidential candidate in terms of the popular vote since Theodore Roosevelt in the 1912 election

I saw that too.

It was just too late, he waffled and it cost him.

Still, 19% wasnt bad for someone who gave up.

[CommunitarianKevin]

Never? You are free to do something that millions have lived and died without benefit of and you voluntarily chose never to cast a choice for government? I don't understand that.

No, I have never voted. I am still debating whether or not I want to vote in the next election. I mean the more I read the more I understand how my vote probably does not matter. They say every vote matters, but it does not. My district has voted Republican 7 straight elections. Since the president does not win by popular vote, my vote is meaningless in this district. This is a representive democracy and not a true democracy.

Honestly the reason I have not voted is really quite simple. The first election I was old enough to vote was the election in 2004. I had actually just finished basic training and was in tech school. I simply did not want to go through the trouble. The next election, 2008, I was back in Minnesota. Minnesota was a lock for Obama and probably is in this next election. I did not see the need to vote and I did not know enough about more local representatives because I was just back to the state.

I mean we get to vote and all but much of it is just something to make people feel good. I mean its not as bad as in Russia or Iran but very few individual votes matter in most districts when it comes to voting for president. I feel no need to vote just because millions cannot. I mean I could go pickett a soldiers funeral just because I have freedom of speech and millions do not but I do not feel a need to use a right simply because others do not.

Now I would consider voting in more local elections because I believe those have a chance of making a difference in my community. The lower the level, the more important voting is and there is a better chance of things actually getting done.

Sounds like a lot of excuses to me.

I grew up absolutely dirt poor. Joined the Military and over the course of 22 years got a College dgree.

Easy? Not even a little bit, but it did set up the next generation in my family.

You will never get people like me to feel sympathetic to those that make excuses.

And as far as forcing the rich to pay more? Have you ever worked for a poor person?

The more you force a person to pay, the more they will cut to keep the margins the same.

And as far as Warren Buffett? if he wants to give it all away to the IRS good for him.

This is America, we dont just stop and obey people like Buffett.

No offense here, but are you white? This makes a huge difference and you hit on one of the main points. You set up the next generation for success. I feel like a pretty informed guy but I was truely shocked to learn what a different country this was just a couple of decades ago. The big problem is that this is arguably the first generation when black people have not been severly discriminated against. The time is even less for American Indians. Most minorities have not been set up for success and it is not that simple to say "work harder." I do not have the time or the energy to teach a history class on this topic but it is a very complicated issues that touches many different aspects. I mean if you are truely interested in the topic you can read Racism by Joseph Barndt, White Like Me by Tim Wise, White Privilege by Paula Rothenberg, or my personal favorite Negroes with Guns by Robert F. Williams. In Negroes with Guns Robert F. Williams tells his story as a civil rights leader. The story will blow you away. I mean in the 60s there were still legal lynchings. If you were in the military for 22 years, you were born no later than 1972. That is only 10 years after black people were still being lynched. To compare your hard work to their hard work is insane and incredibly ignorant. American is just in the process of making everyone equal. This is a very new thing.

In your defense, the military is a great option. I also took advantage of that and it has made a huge difference in my life.

The more you force a person to pay, the more they will cut to keep the margins the same.

Yes, I know, and this has lead to out-sourcing. This is the fundamental problem with not just Americans but people in general. They will cut to "keep the same margins." Margins of what? Millions of dollars? Their goal is max profit. My point is how much is enough money to live comfortably on? I promise that if I ever come into a million dollars, just one million, I will never work again. The problem is people drive to have more money than they can ever spend. I mean seriously, who needs millions a year? Sure it is personal preference, but one I do not agree with. My issue is the capitalistic system. I am not a fan...but I am also not sure there is a perfect system.

This is America, we dont just stop and obey people like Buffett.

That is the exact type of attitude that causes the rest of the world to hate us. This is 'Merica! We don't need to listen to anyone! We do what we want!

The problem here is... those rich guys earned that $100,000 car... where as the "lower classes" think they are entitled to one. I, Like Capt. Amerika up there, started off in the dirt in a small town in Alabama, and over the last 20 years I have worked to where I am now. The opportunities are out there, and always have been. However, over the last few decades, the government has been more than willing to push the entitlement mentality... if you dont have it, we will give it to you.. and that has never been more evident than in the last 4 years. Don't get me wrong, im all for giving some one a hand up... just not a hand out. If you want welfare/foodstamps/free utilities...etc.. work for them if you are able. I do understand that there are those who are completely unable to work and do need some type of assistance, and im fine with that. However.. im not fine with a good portion of my paycheck going to those who can and wont work, or to a government who spends it in anyway they deem fit.

Read what I said above...

I do agree with you for the most part. There are issues with how our government works and there are tons of people taking advantage of the system. I work at a gas station part time and I see people come in there everyday with their iPhones only to grab chips and candy and pay for them with food stamps, only to take out money and buy scratch offs and smokes. The problem is, what can be done about it? People are always going to take advantage of a system...that is how it works.

You can try to tear apart the freedom in the US all you want. The only valid arguement that can be given there is... yes... you are free.. for if you had been a citizen of another country and spoke that way about your country... you would have been punished severely. Free Speech is amazing, aint it? Here, you have the FREEDOM to practive what ever religion you would like (though these days it seems that Christians are being vomited on). Here, you have the freedom to work where you want, pick your career and life goals... make your money as YOU see fit... Here, you arent working for a few grains of food instead of money... Im gonna stop beating that drum, because no matter how many times I scream it into the night you wont or cant care. Your views sound a bit more communist than communitarian to me. "From each according to his ability, to each according to his need". I dont share this view... nor do many of the lower, middle or upper class...

I am not trying to tear apart the freedoms. Many would argue that they are the best in the entire world. I mean I live her by choice...I was only pointing out the myth that this country was some how better during the time of its founding. It took hundreds of years for many of these freedoms to actually come about and we are still struggling with some of them (such as rights for gays.)

Religion is my main area of study and I will tell you that religious freedom is a new thing. The modern understanding of the phrase "a seperation of church and state" was made to oppress Catholics that were trying to get funding for their schools. Also the claim that Christians are being vomited on is total BS. It may appear that way on the internet but it is totally false. According to various polls inbetween 8-13% of people do not believe in a higher power. In the poll that cited 8%, only 1% claimed to be atheists. Atheists are by far the most hated group. Less than half (49%) of Americans would consider voting for an atheist President. The next lowest number was homosexuals at 79%. In the history of Congress there has been only 1 open atheist. My state, Minnesota, elected the first Muslim to congress, though there are now two. There is also a Buddhist. Over 97% of our congress in Christian or Jewish (Jews make up 8%.) This nation is HIGHLY Christian.

Listen, I hear you screaming into the night...the problem is there is a lot you do not understand. We have people starving in this country. We have children that get their only meals from their school lunch. These kids will go all weekend without food because school is not held on the weekends. We act as if hunger is something happening in a distant place but in reality it happens here. I do not expect people to know that because we do a good job of covering it up. I only hope some day that people will figure this out.

Lol there it is...the claim of a communist. I knew someone was going to get me going on this…where to start.

I guess I will start by saying that communism is a flawed philosophy. Marx was a horribly philosopher. I am most familiar with him because of his theories of religion. His problem is he is a fundamental reductionist. Their claims almost always get trashed. First off, the Soviets perverted Marx’s ideas. Marx’s ideas, at the base, were intended for good. He wanted a society free of a class system, where everyone shares everything, where everyone gets paid the same, and where everyone is equal. That is not an inherently evil premise. The problem comes with his logic. He does not take into account human nature. Basically if you do not give people a reason to work hard, they won’t. You mentioned this above with people taking advantage of the system. If everything is given to them, why try? I have personally seen the effects of this type of mentality in Kyrgyzstan. Kyrgyzstan used to be part of the Soviet Union. We currently have a military base there and we pay these people to build stuff for us. Let me tell you…you have not seen lazy until you see these people. They will literally sit around for hours and not do a single thing. Why? Why should they, they are getting paid. This type of philosophy was actually the reason I got off of active duty in the military. In the military everyone is paid the same (if they are of the same rank and have the same relationship status and stuff.) One gets promoted by taking a test (which is also combined with points from decorations and time in grade/service.) Basically, if you are a good test taker, you can get promoted even if you are a horrible worker. We had troops that figured this system out. You would tell them to do something and they would look at you like you were crazy. They would say “why? You going to give me paper work? You going to kick me out?” and they knew the answer to this…unless you commit a felony (basically) you will not get kicked out in 4 years. It is very hard to get “fired” from the military in general. Because of this, they slack off while others pick up the slack for the same pay. They have no incentive to work hard because they can take a test and move up or simply sit where they are. I got off of active duty because I am a hard worker and I am better than that. All I am saying is that Marx’s philosophy is logically invalid and not practical.

With that being said, the communist plan does sound more like America. I mean freedom and equality for all? How is that not communistic? If you take a class in American history you will see that what we preach is closer to communism than it is to what we actually practice. The only reason we people have a negative view of communism was because the Soviet Union was our biggest competition. We wanted to be everything that was anti-USSR. There were some times about their system that was superior. For example, they were the only country not affected by the Great Depression. They were unaffected because everything was internal. The bad taste comes from their evil government, which was very oppressive. They did not follow Marxist philosophy. If you established a government that upheld a superior Constitution (like the modern translation of ours,) I would argue you could create one of the freest people in history…but like I said the logic is not valid and it is not practical.

But am I a Communist? Obviously not…because you guys have already criticized me for promoting equality for everyone, which is the key concept of communism. The very freedoms you promote are the very ones communism gives (under a just government) and obviously our entire discussion is about how I do not agree with them. Under the communistic model your person with a learning disability would be equal to everyone else. I said I do not agree with that (not that they aren’t equal, I just don’t think they should vote…so in a way they aren’t equal.) You think everyone has and should have these basic freedoms. You are more of a communist than I am.

The difference between a communitarian and a communist is that I do not believe everyone should be equal or that everyone should get paid the same. I believe in competition and hard work, I just simply would like to see a level playing field. When I say I am a communitarian that means I am willing to give up some of my time or money to help those in my community in need (I am talking more local and not national.) I am willing to pay more on my taxes to build a park or a school to advance education and help the community. That extra tax money I would put into my community is making a better future for the people that live in it. It is allowing them to gain the education they need to be successful. I personally have a hard time seeing how anyone would argue against that point.

Edited May 3, 2012 by HuttonEtAl

[Dredimus]

Just snipping it to keep from reposting such a long piece.

I understand a little more where you are coming from, I get it. Yes, America boast about all being equal... created equal with equal rights (yes, we are lacking in some areas there... ) however, that doesn't mean an equal paycheck... if it did, what would be the point in going to school for 8 years to become a doctor when the guy sweeping the floor is making the same money. We arent going to agree on the mentally challenged issue... My brother is autistic and is one of the smartest people ive ever met... literally.. his IQ is off the charts... I know men who never made it past the 8th grade but have the "god given" common sense... so we will let that issue drop.

As far as extra taxes... I could see that.. however it would never work in this model of government... it wouldnt be spent at the local level and you know it. In cases of "Helping Hands" im all for it, but let it be a CHOICE not a tax or demand. I pay my fair share of taxes and I dont want to pay that... not after watching the government p*** it away.. just sayin.

And for the record, I myself was military, United States Army 5 years, Combat Engineer. E-5. And I dont recall seeing what you are talking about.. You had to be nominated by the cadre to go before the board for your promotion... it was as simple as "You are lazy... you wont be promoted"

Edited May 3, 2012 by Dredimus

[Gromdor]

I'm going out on a limb and saying that Hutton was Air Force. Air Force tests till E-7 and then goes to a board.

[CommunitarianKevin]

I understand a little more where you are coming from, I get it. Yes, America boast about all being equal... created equal with equal rights (yes, we are lacking in some areas there... ) however, that doesn't mean an equal paycheck... if it did, what would be the point in going to school for 8 years to become a doctor when the guy sweeping the floor is making the same money. We arent going to agree on the mentally challenged issue... My brother is autistic and is one of the smartest people ive ever met... literally.. his IQ is off the charts... I know men who never made it past the 8th grade but have the "god given" common sense... so we will let that issue drop.

As far as extra taxes... I could see that.. however it would never work in this model of government... it wouldnt be spent at the local level and you know it. In cases of "Helping Hands" im all for it, but let it be a CHOICE not a tax or demand. I pay my fair share of taxes and I dont want to pay that... not after watching the government p*** it away.. just sayin.

And for the record, I myself was military, United States Army 5 years, Combat Engineer. E-5. And I dont recall seeing what you are talking about.. You had to be nominated by the cadre to go before the board for your promotion... it was as simple as "You are lazy... you wont be promoted"

I'm going out on a limb and saying that Hutton was Air Force. Air Force tests till E-7 and then goes to a board.

I'm glad we have come to a sort of understanding. For sure not everyone should get paid the same but everyone should have the oppertunity to go to school to get that degree (and it should be afordable or free but that is another issue.) I mean my wife's school loans cost us 800 dollars a month and will cost us more than 1,500 a month by the time they are paid off (in another 7 or 8 years.) If she got paid the same as everyone else, we would not be able to live.

Thanks for expanding on the mentally challeneged issue. I see that it is a personal issue. My sister, mom, and pretty much my entire mom's side of the family is deaf or hard of hearing, so I understand the personal feelings. You are right that we probably will not agree and no system is perfect, but I do stand by what I say. Just know it is nothing personal.

Yes, I am Air Force. That is how it was on active duty. Maybe I should specify Air Force when I am using that example. Their system really hurts them in my opinion. The good workers leave and the lousy ones stay. But even a board is not perfect. In my Air National Guard unit we board for E-6. The board is totally pointless because they play favorites anyways. Since I have been part of the unit (almost 4 years) no one that joined from another unit or active duty has been promoted (past E-5 because until that point it is guaranteed.) I mean it is a total joke. I, along with 2 other people, are way more qualified than the last 4 people that have been promoted…we are hurting now in some areas because they cannot do the job. When we brought up the favoritism to the commander he said “yep well I mean that’s how it goes sometimes. Just try to be more visible.” The dude flat out admitted it. But hey it’s not like I really give a crap. If they promote me, that means more work, which I do not want to do. It’s not that I am lazy…I just do not get paid. Yup, that’s right, I do not get paid for my guard service. I am working for free. But it is what it is. I would just prefer to show up, do my job, and be left alone if they do not intend to promote me.