Giza pyramids mystery

[Mentalcase]

Well said KMT!

[kmt_sesh]

The ramp would have been made of various materials, but would have included enough clays and limestone debris to bind together very strongly. Even just packed Earth would be fine for dragging 100 ton stones up. The angle could not have been very great, and some think they paved the ramp for traction and strength. Why not pave it? They had months or even years between some courses of stone. The only place the ramp would have been crazy would be on the last quarter of the pyramids height. Also, they found the debris from the Ramp in the Quarry to the south.

...

Let's not forget the remains of the ramp found to the southeast of the Great Pyramid. It was only the lowest-most course of the ramp, of course, but even this was well preserved. It was composed of tightly compacted gravel framed by mud-brick walls. Within the excavated fill were found seals with the name of Khufu on them, so we know the ramp was built and used during the construction of the Great Pyramid complex. Also, the nature of the gravel fill was the same in composition to the countless tons of debris you mentioned in the quarries, where disassembled ramps were dumped.

Similar remains of ramps have been found at many sites, pyramids included. I once wrote a summary of ramps from the Old Kingdom, drawn on information from Dieter Arnold's book on building in stone. I composed the list in some long-ago debate with cladking and wish I could find it now for inclusion here, but can't seem to locate it. But in sum total the evidence for the use of ramps is beyond dispute. Cladking never accepted that, but I never expected he would.

When two countries are trading with barter system, there can be no deficit, debt, profit or loss. It is always a straight trade. Lebennon had trees, Egypt had grain... they swapped X sacks of grain for Y number of ceder logs. Very simple economics.

Very well explained.

[jules99]

When two countries are trading with barter system, there can be no deficit, debt, profit or loss. It is always a straight trade. Lebennon had trees, Egypt had grain... they swapped X sacks of grain for Y number of ceder logs. Very simple economics.

Yeah good point but, surely there must be a deficit depending on the goods traded. Even barter can be exploited through knowing how badly your goods are required...besides werent the phoenicians seasoned traders?

"Gubla was the first Phoenician city to trade actively with Egypt and the pharaohs of the Old Kingdom (2686-2181 B.C.), exporting cedar, olive oil, and wine, while importing gold and other products from the Nile Valley."

http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/bl/bl_lebanonphoenicians.htm

Surely everything has a cost of production even if eventually bartered for other goods with no currency exchange. Even with barter there is plenty of scope for profit and loss, eg look at Jack and his 3 magic beans for a cow barter.

[Gaden]

KMT_sesh is short, chubby and bald? That totally ruins the mental image I had.

[kmt_sesh]

KMT_sesh is short, chubby and bald? That totally ruins the mental image I had.

LOL Sorry to ruin things for you.

Oh, did I also mention not particularly good looking?

[ShadowSot]

LOL Sorry to ruin things for you.

Oh, did I also mention not particularly good looking?

Gasp!

Well, at least now I feel a mite better about myself.

[kmt_sesh]

Gasp!

Well, at least now I feel a mite better about myself.

We'd make quite a pair, ShadowSot. In fact, maybe it's our sheer hideousness that's scared off Melo.

[+DieChecker]

Yeah good point but, surely there must be a deficit depending on the goods traded. Even barter can be exploited through knowing how badly your goods are required...besides werent the phoenicians seasoned traders?

"Gubla was the first Phoenician city to trade actively with Egypt and the pharaohs of the Old Kingdom (2686-2181 B.C.), exporting cedar, olive oil, and wine, while importing gold and other products from the Nile Valley."

http://ancienthistor...phoenicians.htm

Surely everything has a cost of production even if eventually bartered for other goods with no currency exchange. Even with barter there is plenty of scope for profit and loss, eg look at Jack and his 3 magic beans for a cow barter.

Deficit implies a fixed value of things. In a barter economy, including trading in gold bars, or jewelry, there is no fixed value. If the Egyptians demanded 10 logs for each sack of grain, they either got that or they did not. They could decide to haggle over the trade, and eventually end up with 100 sacks of X size for 10 ceder logs of Y length, but that is in the barganing. There can be no deficit or debt in direct trade.

Possibly there could have been Credit. Don't some of the ancient Sumerian cruniform tablets indicated markers for ownership of grains. Sort of like a credit card that could be drawn on to pay other debts, perhaps? But, I doubt that nations such as are invovled here would offer Credit on the levels involved in the trade of hundreds of logs and thousands of tons of grains. I think the Credit system would only be implimented on an Individual versus the State level.

[+DieChecker]

LOL Sorry to ruin things for you.

Oh, did I also mention not particularly good looking?

So you're not a wrinkled up old mummy?

Gasp!

Well, at least now I feel a mite better about myself.

And you're not a dude with ears like an antelope?

Well.... Will wonders never cease?

[kmt_sesh]

Deficit implies a fixed value of things. In a barter economy, including trading in gold bars, or jewelry, there is no fixed value. If the Egyptians demanded 10 logs for each sack of grain, they either got that or they did not. They could decide to haggle over the trade, and eventually end up with 100 sacks of X size for 10 ceder logs of Y length, but that is in the barganing. There can be no deficit or debt in direct trade.

Possibly there could have been Credit. Don't some of the ancient Sumerian cruniform tablets indicated markers for ownership of grains. Sort of like a credit card that could be drawn on to pay other debts, perhaps? But, I doubt that nations such as are invovled here would offer Credit on the levels involved in the trade of hundreds of logs and thousands of tons of grains. I think the Credit system would only be implimented on an Individual versus the State level.

There was indeed a sort of system for credit and lending. These are known from actual accounts kept in written form, often on ostraca. This is also how some people ended up more or less as slaves: indentured servants working off debt.

I don't know if such a thing existed at the state level, so that's a good question. Within most individual states, the government determined how much certain weights of goods were worth in equivalent weights of metals. So within individual states, weights and measures were fixed, although they could change from time to time. I am not certain how governments interacted with the weights and measures of other states; I once briefly delved into ancient economies of the Near East and quickly grew dreadfully bored, so it didn't last long. I'll leave it to economic historians.

Edit to add: Once again I must stress the mummy in my avatar photo is not me! I don't look that good.

Edited May 3, 2012 by kmt_sesh

[ShadowSot]

And you're not a dude with ears like an antelope?

Well.... Will wonders never cease?

I never said that. My ears are extremely luxuriant I'll have you know. I can pick up Radio Moscow if I tilt properly.

[jules99]

Deficit implies a fixed value of things. In a barter economy, including trading in gold bars, or jewelry, there is no fixed value. If the Egyptians demanded 10 logs for each sack of grain, they either got that or they did not. They could decide to haggle over the trade, and eventually end up with 100 sacks of X size for 10 ceder logs of Y length, but that is in the barganing. There can be no deficit or debt in direct trade.

Possibly there could have been Credit. Don't some of the ancient Sumerian cruniform tablets indicated markers for ownership of grains. Sort of like a credit card that could be drawn on to pay other debts, perhaps? But, I doubt that nations such as are invovled here would offer Credit on the levels involved in the trade of hundreds of logs and thousands of tons of grains. I think the Credit system would only be implimented on an Individual versus the State level.

Yeah I understand; the problem was the use of the word "defecit". Prolly should have been procurring timber represented a drain on egyptian resources, but of course that wasnt said, it was said that it created a defecit, which in barter it cannot have done.

Cheers

[+DieChecker]

Edit to add: Once again I must stress the mummy in my avatar photo is not me! I don't look that good.

He has the perfect hollywood body. All natural garments, ultra thin and very darkly tanned skin. (Tanned... get it?)

[Banksy Boy]

Has already been done a dozen times... boooring!

http://www.questia.c...a=o&d=107986723

A chisel is a percussion tool, all I can find within the index is notes regaurding cutting tools. Also the link you have provided requires personal details view etc. If possible can you copy and paste the details where it talks about percussion tools please.

Cheers

Edited May 3, 2012 by Banksy Boy

[questionmark]

A chisel is a percussion tool, all I can find within the index is notes regaurding cutting tools. Also the link you have provided requires personal details view etc. If possible can you copy and paste the details where it talks about percussion tools please.

Cheers

Right, we know, and Columbus used a wood anchor on the Santa Maria because how can a wooden ship carry heavy iron? And to make a horse cross a river you first have to take the shoes off, else the iron will make it sink...

We know all that armchair archeology of the "I am bored today so lets make something up" variety.

And as food for thought:

That mark on that stone pillar is caused by pilgrims putting their hand there, as customary when going to Santiago de Compostela.

[questionmark]

Yeah good point but, surely there must be a deficit depending on the goods traded. Even barter can be exploited through knowing how badly your goods are required...besides werent the phoenicians seasoned traders?

"Gubla was the first Phoenician city to trade actively with Egypt and the pharaohs of the Old Kingdom (2686-2181 B.C.), exporting cedar, olive oil, and wine, while importing gold and other products from the Nile Valley."

http://ancienthistor...phoenicians.htm

Surely everything has a cost of production even if eventually bartered for other goods with no currency exchange. Even with barter there is plenty of scope for profit and loss, eg look at Jack and his 3 magic beans for a cow barter.

You have to always think that trading at the time was not currency based, at the point the pyramids were built we were 2300 years away from that time. Goods just were exchanged, like one sack of dried dates for two 12 foot trunks of cedar, or a sack of wheat for 50 4x4s. That way there could be no deficit, just overpaid goods

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Hi Diechecker!

Well some of members asked me where Im going with this thread, well I will quote Einstein: if we knew what it was we were doing it would not be called research would it?

If Egyptians work on granite with stone Im sure they will made numerous mistakes, yet we dont see numerous abandoned granite flat surfaces with hyeroglyphic mistakes. How come?

Irtysens secret knowledge is interesting. Never heard of him before. Looks like we have one more “spellcaster” from AE.

Diecheker, that number of imported lumber sure would cause deficit. We have many example of that in history. I already gave example when British started importing tea from Chinese. Chinese were called graveyard of the silver, because all silver ended in China backthen. British came to Chinese not opposite. Same here, Egyptians came to Canaanites. Maybe alternatvive was India or even Europe. Anyway Canaanites were well known for trading. Besides purpule color which is their trademark. And they were first start colonizing our planet. Highly doubt that they were loosing in trading with Egypt. Besides never heard that customer setting prices. Im sure that Canaanites Gubla was called graveyard of the Egyptian gold if they ever imported big amounts of wood for ramps, for fire and for boats. I say if ,because with all that wealth Canaanites would leave bigger trace and would heave greater impact beside alphabet. Maybe I dont know much about Canaanites but logic tells me that they should then have greater monuments then GP. They export oil and wine and others stuff too. Im not author of that wood “mystery” to be truth to you. For example I quoted from archaeology.org article (post 189) where is clear that is real question. Kmt mentioned Lehner and his view that wood was from Egypt and how AE deforested themselves. So, when was Egypt jungle?

Since no one mentioned alternatvive fuel I will.(I thought skeptiks answers will be in that direction since this with imported wood from Lebanon and jungle Egypt dont fitt story, imo). We know that today beduoins in Egypt use Camel dung as fuel. They make bread on that fire. So are pyramids were done thankfully on camel dung? What about coal?

Also Diechecker surface stones perfectly fitted on all sides. We have Greeks and Arabs sources to confirm that. Can you give some link about ramp in the quarry to the south.I didnt know that. In fact dont I will search for it. From there I can do it on my own.

Hi Kmt!

Kmt when I said : “you didnt provide answer on some questions and provided some with ignorance” that “you” is used as plural. Also notice that I didnt quoted or add @kmt at that post. Which is confusing I know beause I know to answer like that to specific person. I admit that. I found your post to be very thoughtfull,wise and clever, with great info. I already told you several time that you are well of knowledge. Some questions were skiped. By you too. That s okay because you are not here to answer all question asked by anyone. Also you stated, in others word, that you are bored answering them again and again. I do not except your answer on them but happy when they are there. Further, Im not taken beating. Maybe in your eyes. Because I didnt even said my theory. I started with speculations, questions and I was just to post it when I decided there is no need for it.Thanks God because I will probably get Questionmarks award for dumbest pyramid theory of month. So I didnt say what I have to say so I didnt take beating. You rushed on me. (prular)You will notice that that I wrote in the end of the post “to be continued”. Also I dont have problems being beaten. I was beaten countless time in my life. I have countless losses. Here too. I think I was debunked countless time. In this sub forum by many memebers like Questionmark, Abramelin, Swede, you, Shadowsot and many others. On other sub forums Im victim of some people to not count them anymore. Thing is that you cant loose if you learning from expiriences and losses. When you developed. When you learn. There were times when I beated others too. Although few. Some were priceless moments.Anyway they are all learning moments as for me as for others. So how could I have beaten if I didnt even tell you what I have to tell you? I guess everyone is taking beating just for starting doubting. Anyway I started thread in other forum. About Egypt. Not new thread on UM. Why Im not willing to continue in this one? I dont feel like doing so. Why would I? You all answer on all questions several times, Im just not reading it. Following your logic on previous page didnt you said Im coward.When you said this: "We d make quite a pair, Shadowsot. In fact, maybe its our sheer hideousness thats scared off Melo.” So if you want to be precise and not using double standards...

Note this Im not scared of you, ESPECIALLY not scared of people hiding in your Shadows.. ,or liking others people ______(put what ever you want) comments and nodding around...praying God that Kmt shows and try to answer some question on which they dont have any clue. But then again, you all answered on all questions several times. Lol.

And in the end to not be so negative rather constructive. Why dont you and Shadowsot and rest of the “us” crew made a thread called FAQ about AE. Really why not? You Kmt start in post one, one Q one A. Then Shadow then Mentalcase then Harte (if he knows at all anything about AE in first place) and then . Sounds like a logic idea to me. You can ocasionally post there, when you are bored, rest of us who dont know but willing to know will search answers there and rest of those who thinks that they know hiding in the shadow could copy paste your words and pretend they knew something. Also repeating things is mother of knowledge. You might correct each other. Im dead serious about this idea. I hope that idea will come alive I would love to enjoy the show.

Hi Jules!

If not Egpyt in deficit (which I highly doubt but it depends on how many wood did they imports) Canaanites one way or other must been in plus. They were producers. They established price. Currency is irrelevant. Chinese sell tea only for silver. So British empire was in deficit. Phoencians maybe asked three goods in exchange. And you are right if one required something you have you are making rules. Plus all I said to Checker. And all that siad even if they got in exchange big amounts of food it would resulted with high growth of population. And in the end with great Canaanite empire.

Melo.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Melo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Also legend say that Khufu daughter was prostituted to earn money for fathers pyramid. I would call that deficit.

Edited May 3, 2012 by Melo

[Batfastard]

Also legend say that Khufu daughter was prostituted to earn money for fathers pyramid. I would call that deficit.

I believe that this came from Herodotus - not really the most reliable of sources to be fair

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I believe that this came from Herodotus - not really the most reliable of sources to be fair

I know thats why I stated legend.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

http://www.reshafim....' alt='' /> Edited May 3, 2012 by Melo

[Batfastard]

She must have been pretty impressive if indeed she did help to fund daddy's project though.

Bet she charged a fortune ;-)

[questionmark]

I believe that this came from Herodotus - not really the most reliable of sources to be fair

The guy who knew about 2 headed giants in Syria and saw a mural depicting the amount of cabbages the Pharaoh fed his slave while building the pyramids? Maybe not the most reliable but when it comes down to him or Sitchin/von Daniken I guess I go with Herodotus...

[kmt_sesh]

Hi Kmt!

Kmt when I said : “you didnt provide answer on some questions and provided some with ignorance” that “you” is used as plural. Also notice that I didnt quoted or add @kmt at that post. Which is confusing I know beause I know to answer like that to specific person. I admit that. I found your post to be very thoughtfull,wise and clever, with great info. I already told you several time that you are well of knowledge. Some questions were skiped. By you too. That s okay because you are not here to answer all question asked by anyone. Also you stated, in others word, that you are bored answering them again and again. I do not except your answer on them but happy when they are there. Further, Im not taken beating. Maybe in your eyes. Because I didnt even said my theory. I started with speculations, questions and I was just to post it when I decided there is no need for it.Thanks God because I will probably get Questionmarks award for dumbest pyramid theory of month. So I didnt say what I have to say so I didnt take beating. You rushed on me. (prular)You will notice that that I wrote in the end of the post “to be continued”. Also I dont have problems being beaten. I was beaten countless time in my life. I have countless losses. Here too. I think I was debunked countless time. In this sub forum by many memebers like Questionmark, Abramelin, Swede, you, Shadowsot and many others. On other sub forums Im victim of some people to not count them anymore. Thing is that you cant loose if you learning from expiriences and losses. When you developed. When you learn. There were times when I beated others too. Although few. Some were priceless moments.Anyway they are all learning moments as for me as for others. So how could I have beaten if I didnt even tell you what I have to tell you? I guess everyone is taking beating just for starting doubting. Anyway I started thread in other forum. About Egypt. Not new thread on UM. Why Im not willing to continue in this one? I dont feel like doing so. Why would I? You all answer on all questions several times, Im just not reading it. Following your logic on previous page didnt you said Im coward.When you said this: "We d make quite a pair, Shadowsot. In fact, maybe its our sheer hideousness thats scared off Melo.” So if you want to be precise and not using double standards...

Note this Im not scared of you, ESPECIALLY not scared of people hiding in your Shadows.. ,or liking others people ______(put what ever you want) comments and nodding around...praying God that Kmt shows and try to answer some question on which they dont have any clue. But then again, you all answered on all questions several times. Lol.

Greetings, Melo.

Let's just forget yesterday. It was unproductive and acrimonious. My apologies for my part in it because I know I am also at fault. I think part of this is the difficulty in expressing one's emotions or current state in a forum setting—things written in a forum can be misconstrued, taken the wrong way, misunderstood. So let's forget about the unkind things said yesterday, whether intentional or not.

The remark I made to ShadowSot did not mean I was calling you a coward. It's an idiom or turn of phrase in English: to scare off. You had suddenly disappeared from the discussion. If you reread those posts, ShadowSot and I were poling fun at ourselves. At no point have I thought of you as a coward. In truth I had thought you were really just frustrated and didn't want to deal with the discussion any longer. I honestly didn't think you were satisfied with any of our answers because you seemed skeptical and uncertain of most of the answers we provided.

I myself wish you would continue in this discussion. I suppose several of us can keep it going, but you were the one principally driving it. What's the other forum you're talking about, where you've started a new discussion? I'm just curious. It's unlikely I'll join it but I just like to see what other forums are about. I currently belong to UM and one other, where I'm a Mod, so that's probably more than enough for me (unless another forum grabs my attention and interest, which hasn't happened yet).

A final (?) note on the substance of this discussion. You said to DieChecker:

If Egyptians work on granite with stone Im sure they will made numerous mistakes, yet we dont see numerous abandoned granite flat surfaces with hyeroglyphic mistakes. How come?

I touched on this in an earlier post but such artifacts have indeed been found in numerous ancient quarries, where they had been abandoned for one reason or another. The example I used in my earlier post was Aswan, where the granite was quarried. I mentioned sarcophagi and other monuments that had been abandoned, in situ, unfinished. We all know of the massive obelisk left unfinished at Aswan. Recently in a magazine (KMT, I think it was) I was reading about another obelisk left in the quarry on the west side of the river. I believe it dated to Dynasty 19 (to the reign of either Seti I or Ramesses II, if I remember correctly). It was smaller than the massive obelisk in the eastern quarry but much farther along, and heavily inscribed. So there are plenty of examples of such things in quarries. The fact that they're unfinished shows us how they were being carved, drilled, and dressed throughout the production stages. And in point of fact a great many monuments throughout the Nile Valley show mistakes in their relief carvings, including spelling mistakes in hieroglyphs; some of these mistakes were chiseled out and corrected, but plenty of them were never fixed.

And in the end to not be so negative rather constructive. Why dont you and Shadowsot and rest of the “us” crew made a thread called FAQ about AE. Really why not? You Kmt start in post one, one Q one A. Then Shadow then Mentalcase then Harte (if he knows at all anything about AE in first place) and then . Sounds like a logic idea to me. You can ocasionally post there, when you are bored, rest of us who dont know but willing to know will search answers there and rest of those who thinks that they know hiding in the shadow could copy paste your words and pretend they knew something. Also repeating things is mother of knowledge. You might correct each other. Im dead serious about this idea. I hope that idea will come alive I would love to enjoy the show.

More than one such thread has been started by resident skeptics. They rarely last for long. Most of us skeptics are here at UM to respond to and address topics brought up by "believers" and fringe adherents, if only to strike a balance and provide such discussions with the point of view of professional scientific and historical research. The threads initiated by skeptics and for skeptics seem to have a short shelf life. There are plenty of other internet forums for the orthodox discussion of history, such as the other forum to which I belong for the orthodox discussion of ancient Egypt. UM needs its mix of fringies and skeptics for discussions to last, I think.

[kmt_sesh]

I know thats why I stated legend.

I'm glad you realize this. You might be surprised by how many people do not. I think anyone with an interest in the ancient Near East should read Herodotus' The Histories because it's simply entertaining, not to mention interesting to see the ancient world reflected through the bias of Greek eyes. Herodotus' accounts are riddled with errors and invented material, but a lot of people seem to think that just because this guy lived a really long time ago, everything he wrote must be hard fact.

http://www.reshafim....' alt='' />' />' /

It's funny you provided that link. I was looking at it last night. I wanted to do some research and post information about sources of wood in ancient Egypt, and that's one thing I found. I like the Reshafim site, but that page wasn't exactly what I was looking for. I abandoned the cause anyway because I thought you weren't going to come back to this discussion.