Giza pyramids mystery

[Flibbertigibbet]

When there is no star at exactly true north, there are a collection of stars surrounding it that rotate around a point that is exactly true north.

These stars appear to be in rotation around that point - of course, it's the Earth that's doing the rotating.

The Egyptians could have waited a few hours for two of the stars to be in a line that is perpendicular to the Earth's surface - checking with a plumb line. When these two stars lined up with the plumb line, then true north would be evident, and to the degree of accuracy we see in the alignments of the structures Kmt_sesh mentioned.

Harte

Well, maybe so, but there are easier ways of doing it.

[questionmark]

When there is no star at exactly true north, there are a collection of stars surrounding it that rotate around a point that is exactly true north.

These stars appear to be in rotation around that point - of course, it's the Earth that's doing the rotating.

The Egyptians could have waited a few hours for two of the stars to be in a line that is perpendicular to the Earth's surface - checking with a plumb line. When these two stars lined up with the plumb line, then true north would be evident, and to the degree of accuracy we see in the alignments of the structures Kmt_sesh mentioned.

Harte

Where I have to add: Aligning something to the North Pole would have been quite irrelevant to the ancient Egyptians, there is no evidence that they knew its existence. Much more relevant for them would be the place where Mandjet (the solar boat) rose into the sky and Mesektet entered into the underworld, as kmt has pointed out several times.

[Harte]

Well, maybe so, but there are easier ways of doing it.

Maybe so.

But my post addressed the question, I believe.

Harte

[Big Bad Voodoo]

They cut the stone mainly with other stones. as well as with wooden wedges and water. The copper tools were for finishing work, and if you think about it, they had like 5 years to finish each (granite) piece. Not extremely hard to accomplish. Also unfinished blocks and blocks in the process of being cleft of the quarry wall have been found. The evidence is very strong.

Somehow I cant believe that ancient Egyptians sculptured granite with stone tools (without steel and diamond, which we used today) or even as I say earlier diorite and quartzite. You dont have to be very bright to see that something stinks here. How you can achive perfect flat surface and doing hieroglyphs on them better then we can do it today with steel or diamond?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Depends on what else is in the copper. In the first centuries of copper forging blacksmiths had already discovered that adding additional components hardens copper (which is by the way how somebody decided to dump some tin in it and discovered bronze). Bronze was used in quarrying until steel came largely available, that would be the renaissance age.

And no, they did not use cement but plenty of other types of mortar, like clay/sand and gypsum/sand mixtures.

Its all good but AE worked with Granite in stone age, so...atleast thats whats Egyptology say to us.

And what is mortar then cement?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Melo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Imagine a world without modern tech, then you could be an expert at specific tasks. Each role had chosen experts. It seems they used fire for much of thier extreme cuts, then smaller tools for the polishing process. Fire and water, hot n cold, stone on stone and sometimes copper, etc.. Seems they were much smarter then we first imagined. I've seen plenty of experiments on monolith building that have led me to lean toward the fact that they were very good at what they did. Achieving what today, would be difficult.

You mean they melting granite?

Yes imagine world with modern tech. You only have stone and copper. How can you cut hard Granite with soft copper? You can but result would be awfull. True answer is you cant.

[Batfastard]

I think the below article by a cambridge professor validates what Harte has said regarding the alignment of the two stars closest to true North

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/1024779.stm

Edited May 1, 2012 by Batfastard

[Mentalcase]

No not melting. Heating and cooling, which gives stress on the rock in question. Making it much easier to use pounding stones to break apart the granite or whatever rock you want. They would most likely pick a fault-line in the rock and start there.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Also I was thinking about graffiti in Khufu pyramid, could it be that worker wrote his name. As kid I was doing graffiti all over my city. I think that as we have homo sapiens we have graffiti. People love to leave traces.

Or could it be that is part of working process. For example Cheops crew will cut and lift this monolith. This monolith will do Ramses crew and so on.

If you ever been to big construction site you would see that is something construction workers do.

Thats why GP graffiti cant be seen from outside when it was done. Only from inside when you enter there on force how recent Egyptiology entered in.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

No not melting. Heating and cooling, which gives stress on the rock in question. Making it much easier to use pounding stones to break apart the granite or whatever rock you want. They would most likely pick a fault-line in the rock and start there.

I think they could melted Granite. No way you can have perfect use of Granite with copper tool.

If they coule melt Basalt so they could melt Granite. They made basalt road near GP. Once I read that Egyptology confirm that they didnt have furhter surface working on that road.

Basalt melting point is 984°to 1260°and Granites melts between 1215°to 1260°.

I read before about bubbles into rock just couldnt remember which rocks.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Basalt road near GP.

http://pics.livejournal.com/humus/pic/00dxaq2t

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Look those surface blocks on GP.

http://pics.livejournal.com/humus/pic/00dx2f71

How did they made that they all fitt on pyramid as we know today in such big scale and on all sides???

[Big Bad Voodoo]

No not melting. Heating and cooling, which gives stress on the rock in question. Making it much easier to use pounding stones to break apart the granite or whatever rock you want. They would most likely pick a fault-line in the rock and start there.

Now when I seen my signature I remembered how Hannibal crossed Alps and mystery how he broke mountain with hot vinegar as I remember.

And why in the world someone crossing Alps and going into war would bring so much vinegar? Unless he planed it.

So Lybia-Egypt...Just guessing.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I also read that some surface blocks were 300 tones.Dont know that is true or not?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Anyway those Granite blocks at Kings chamber weight about 5o 6o tones. What kind of ramp can take it? How would they placed it?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Melo

[questionmark]

I think they could melted Granite. No way you can have perfect use of Granite with copper tool.

If they coule melt Basalt so they could melt Granite. They made basalt road near GP. Once I read that Egyptology confirm that they didnt have furhter surface working on that road.

Basalt melting point is 984°to 1260°and Granites melts between 1215°to 1260°.

I read before about bubbles into rock just couldnt remember which rocks.

Basalt road near GP.

http://pics.livejour...us/pic/00dxaq2t

Here we are mixing several things. To start with the Egyptians used bronze tools, not copper tools, the slight difference is that copper has about 2.5 Mohs hardness while bronze has somewhere around 3.5-5, depending on the additives to the copper. Iron has only 4-5 (depending if cast or forged) and steel 7 and more.

We know for a fact that Egyptians used bronze because we found some of their tools, like this cute chisel here:

A little oxidized but perfectly serviceable.

Now melting Basalt, well they could have started making steel if they had the technology to achieve 1400-1600 degrees Celsius,and granite still needs above 1200 degrees,. which means they could have made iron tools. So I am afraid that it is a non-starter.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Here we are mixing several things. To start with the Egyptians used bronze tools, not copper tools, the slight difference is that copper has about 2.5 Mohs hardness while bronze has somewhere around 3.5-5, depending on the additives to the copper. Iron has only 4-5 (depending if cast or forged) and steel 7 and more.

We know for a fact that Egyptians used bronze because we found some of their tools, like this cute chisel here:

A little oxidized but perfectly serviceable.

Now melting Basalt, well they could have started making steel if they had the technology to achieve 1400-1600 degrees Celsius,and granite still needs above 1200 degrees,. which means they could have made iron tools. So I am afraid that it is a non-starter.

So, Bronze tools to Granite are like axe to honey???

You did see Basalt road didnt you?

It seems to me that they have tech for high temperatures. You analogy dont follow.

Some societies dont developed something even they have anything they need. For example why Inca didnt have alphabet and Wheels?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Also as Im aware AE did work with Granite in late stone age meaning no bronze artifacts.

And I think they have found copper tools as well.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Why Chinese didnt colonized America, why Germans didnt? Why spainyards?

Why aboriginals didnt colonized America?

Thats real historical mysteries. They all have same starting points.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Many questionmarks no real answers.

[questionmark]

So, Bronze tools to Granite are like axe to honey???

You did see Basalt road didnt you?

It seems to me that they have tech for high temperatures. You analogy dont follow.

Some societies dont developed something even they have anything they need. For example why Inca didnt have alphabet and Wheels?

Who said that, but it seems far easier to break granite, composed of muscovite micas (Mohs-2.0-2.5), potassium feldspar (Mohs-6), and quartz (Mohs-7) splitting along the filling material(the micas) then to get it to 1200 degrees. Granite is not uniform in its components and therefore, even if hard, easy to work.

And not only did Egyptians work it with a certain degree of success, even the troglodites did:

And very low tech civilizations like the North American Indians did:

So I guess, the Egyptians just musta been dumber than the cave men if they needed to melt the stone.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

To questionmark

You see difference between granite arrow points and hierogylphs done on perfectly flat granite surface?

EDIT: How said it was hard to AE to create high temp? Todays Egyptology?

Edited May 1, 2012 by Melo

[questionmark]

To questionmark

You see difference between granite arrow points and hierogylphs done on perfectly flat granite surface?

Only in as far as the amount of work involved. The processing, chop to size and grind to fit, is exactly the same. No difference... unless we are bored and need to make up a mystery...

Edit: and the above are not arrow points, they are stone axes.

Edited May 1, 2012 by questionmark

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Only in as far as the amount of work involved. The processing, chop to size and grind to fit, is exactly the same. No difference... unless we are bored and need to make up a mystery...

Edit: and the above are not arrow points, they are stone axes.

When you see difference then you will understand my point of view. Im sorry but I see difference.

Edited May 1, 2012 by Melo

[questionmark]

This is the technology they had for bronze casting. As soon as you figure out how to get 1200 degrees instead of ~800 out of there and enough stone molten to make a single boulder let me know:

Edited May 1, 2012 by questionmark