Giza pyramids mystery

[Big Bad Voodoo]

@questionmark

We have great pyramid yet we dont know how it was done.

We have basalt road yet we dont know how it was done.

That doesnt mean they didnt did that.

But I will search for possible explainations.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Basalt road is evidence that EA could made melting points temperature of Granite.

[questionmark]

@questionmark

We have great pyramid yet we dont know how it was done.

We have basalt road yet we dont know how it was done.

That doesnt mean they didnt did that.

But I will search for possible explainations.

We know quite well how they were done, it is just that the explanation is too simple for some to accept, especially those who have an ersatz-religion wherein Nibblers and Atlantes play a prominent role.

Mostly it was lots of work.

[questionmark]

Basalt road is evidence that EA could made melting points temperature of Granite.

It is certainly not, there are at least 200 other possibilities. And many of the other possibilities are much more verosimil than ancient Egyptian furnaces producing 1400 degrees.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

It is certainly not, there are at least 200 other possibilities. And many of the other possibilities are much more verosimil than ancient Egyptian furnaces producing 1400 degrees.

Can you give at least three good explainations?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

We know quite well how they were done, it is just that the explanation is too simple for some to accept, especially those who have an ersatz-religion wherein Nibblers and Atlantes play a prominent role.

Mostly it was lots of work.

Please do tell.

[questionmark]

Can you give at least three good explainations?

Like this:

(ancient Egyptian graffiti)

edit: and they did it here:

Edited May 1, 2012 by questionmark

[Harte]

Somehow I cant believe that ancient Egyptians sculptured granite with stone tools (without steel and diamond, which we used today) or even as I say earlier diorite and quartzite. You dont have to be very bright to see that something stinks here. How you can achive perfect flat surface and doing hieroglyphs on them better then we can do it today with steel or diamond?

The very same show that this thread takes its name from showed Christopher Dunn sawing a perfectly round hole all the way through a piece of granite with a copper tube saw and some sand.

Funny how the show personnel can believe this, but you can't.

Regarding getting flat surfaces, it has been found that if you burn a fire on top of some granite, the heat makes the surface layer very much easier to work. Likely this was the method used.

Harte

[questionmark]

In fact, here we have an 80 year old dude hand forming s piece of granite:

[kmt_sesh]

@questionmark

We have great pyramid yet we dont know how it was done.

We have basalt road yet we dont know how it was done.

That doesnt mean they didnt did that.

But I will search for possible explainations.

Basalt road is evidence that EA could made melting points temperature of Granite.

The basalt on the east side of the Great Pyramid is not a road, it's about all that's left of the mortuary temple that abutted the east face of the pyramid. The basalt is composed of individual blocks to form the paving stones or floor for the temple.

The Egyptians certainly didn't "melt" basalt to form the paving stones. They cut them to shape and used abrasives to polish them smooth—the same as was done with granite. You asked earlier if it was Egyptologists who stated the Egyptians did not "melt" the stones. As far as I know, no Egyptologist has commented on this one way or another because it doesn't realistically bear consideration. The Egyptians did not possess the smelting technology that would've allowed them to obtain such tremendous temperatures. The Great Pyramid was erected in the early Bronze Age; we know the technologies and tools available to the Egyptians of that timeframe, so we are obligated to observe their capabilities and limitations. This is not guesswork.

Some other things to consider:

• The granite and basalt masonry certainly does not exceed what modern stone masons could achieve with modern technology. That's a common misconception. The degree to which the Egyptians cut, dressed, and finished such masonry is generally exaggerated, and sometimes grossly so.
  
• People tend to underestimate the durability and strength of copper tools. The copper the Egyptians used was often smelted with impurities and other metals, and items like copper chisels were very strong, indeed. This is even before bronze tools were widely used. And stout bronze chisels would've been more than sufficient for the finishing and dressing of limestone blocks; limestone is soft and malleable.
  
• Hard-stone tools were often used for the rough cutting of masonry blocks. This includes diorite balls for the forming of granite masonry; the principal granite quarries at Aswan are littered with these ancient diorite balls. Modern experiments with bronze saws and abrasives have proved such tools can and did cut through granite.
  
• No one need display chronic astonishment that the Egyptians could work so skillfully with stone; likewise, no one need propose anachronistic and unrealistic technologies, a la cladking. If you're not certain how the Egyptians may have done these things, your first obligation is to search out the professional literature and acquaint yourself with the great body of research which has gone into this topic. I recommend Dieter Arnold's Building in Egypt: Pharaonic Stone Masonry, for starters.
  

[questionmark]

The basalt on the east side of the Great Pyramid is not a road, it's about all that's left of the mortuary temple that abutted the east face of the pyramid. The basalt is composed of individual blocks to form the paving stones or floor for the temple.

To stay on the subject: what type of stone did they use (i.e. Aswan etc)? I have looked for a source but can't find any.

[questionmark]

The very same show that this thread takes its name from showed Christopher Dunn sawing a perfectly round hole all the way through a piece of granite with a copper tube saw and some sand.

Funny how the show personnel can believe this, but you can't.

Regarding getting flat surfaces, it has been found that if you burn a fire on top of some granite, the heat makes the surface layer very much easier to work. Likely this was the method used.

Harte

I tend to go with abrasives as even with fire forming one needs pretty high temperatures, here is a little video on how it is done nowadays:

[kmt_sesh]

To stay on the subject: what type of stone did they use (i.e. Aswan etc)? I have looked for a source but can't find any.

Are you referring to the stone they quarried at Aswan (granite) or the stone they used to help roughen out the shape of granite monuments (diorite)?

I might add that the massive unfinished obelisk is not the only thing that was discovered at Aswan. Left behind were assortments of other monuments that were never finished, for one reason or another. It may have been due to a fault or weakness in the stone that caused the monument to crack (as with the obelisk) or the owner commissioning the monument might have refused payment, and the workmen ceased production.

For example, numerous unfinished sarcophagi have been found (both in the quarries and in tombs). These have helped researchers to determine that they were hollowed out not by carving but by drilling, while exterior details like inscriptions and cornices and friezes were shaped with chisels.

I tend to go with abrasives as even with fire forming one needs pretty high temperatures, here is a little video on how it is done nowadays:

I am in agreement. Although fire was certainly possible as a technique, as I understand it the evidence is not strong. It's more theoretical in nature. However, it may have been employed to some degree in the quarries of softer stones like limestone and calcite. Abrasives were widely used, as was fracturing. You can find photos of ancient quarries where there are small rectangular holes in the rock face: this is where wooden wedges were inserted and hammered until large chunks of rock split, to be shaped and dressed as needed.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The basalt on the east side of the Great Pyramid is not a road, it's about all that's left of the mortuary temple that abutted the east face of the pyramid. The basalt is composed of individual blocks to form the paving stones or floor for the temple.

The Egyptians certainly didn't "melt" basalt to form the paving stones. They cut them to shape and used abrasives to polish them smooth—the same as was done with granite. You asked earlier if it was Egyptologists who stated the Egyptians did not "melt" the stones. As far as I know, no Egyptologist has commented on this one way or another because it doesn't realistically bear consideration. The Egyptians did not possess the smelting technology that would've allowed them to obtain such tremendous temperatures. The Great Pyramid was erected in the early Bronze Age; we know the technologies and tools available to the Egyptians of that timeframe, so we are obligated to observe their capabilities and limitations. This is not guesswork.

Wrong. I read (and I will search for that article) where some Egyptologist claim that so called (if you want-because everyone called it that way) Basalt road have not had surface working on it. Meaning it is what it is.

Second, why is hard to understand that they were able to produce melting points for Basalt and Granite.

We humans in the end during iron age created even higher temperatures. Iron melting point is 1500 C.

All Im saying it is possobility.

Same as Khufu graffiti was worker name.

...

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Again all Im saying that there are holes in story what Egyptology tries to serve us.

I cant believe for example that one stone in every two minutes must be placed on GP so they could end it in 25 years.

Unless they were giants or ...or simply, we miss something and we lost it trough history.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Plus surface stone which is realy mystery how they fit perfectly on all side on that giant project?

And what is the ramp that can take 60 tones blocks?

Or even 300 tones blocks if is it true that some of surface blocks were that weight.

[questionmark]

Are you referring to the stone they quarried at Aswan (granite) or the stone they used to help roughen out the shape of granite monuments (diorite)?

I am talking about the stones that forms that so called "road". The point being that basalt is not equal to basalt. There are pretty hard varieties (like the Swedish types) and pretty soft varieties, like found in Vancouver. With an idea of where the stone is from we can easily determine the difficulty of working that rock.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

That is realy big working speed with great precision.

[questionmark]

That is realy big working speed with great precision.

You just need enough people if you are slow:

[Big Bad Voodoo]

@Questionmark

I fail to see from that video how did they placed one block every two minutes for 25 years.

[questionmark]

@Questionmark

I fail to see from that video how did they placed one block every two minutes for 25 years.

But you have surely learned that there were at least 7000 people eating beef every day, right? 7000 people, even working slowly, is the equivalent of 2310 horsepower. Should be no problem.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

But you have surely learned that there were at least 7000 people eating beef every day, right? 7000 people, even working slowly, is the equivalent of 2310 horsepower. Should be no problem.

So, I estimate that there were even bigger number. That dont explain how did they done it.

Proces must be very difficult, precise. Blocks were carefully chosen. Plenty evidence for that.

They didnt just do it like lego cubes.

[questionmark]

So, I estimate that there were even bigger number. That dont explain how did they done it.

Proces must be very difficult, precise. Blocks were carefully chosen. Plenty evidence for that.

They didnt just do it like lego cubes.

This must be the 100th time I post this picture:

There was no precision in building the great pyramid. Most of it stayed on top of each other due to generous quantities of plaster put in between them, else the whole shebang would have come down with the first strong shemal.

Edited May 1, 2012 by questionmark

[Harte]

Second, why is hard to understand that they were able to produce melting points for Basalt and Granite.

We humans in the end during iron age created even higher temperatures. Iron melting point is 1500 C.

All Im saying it is possobility.

Except, it's not a possibility.

It is a sign of ignorance that you think that if you melt granite then cool it, the result will be granite again.

It won't.

Melted stone like granite becomes basalt when allowed to cool at the Earth's surface.

So, if they melted any of their granite, they couldn't have used it for any granite construction - it would have been basalt. But we see granite in these structures.

You see?

I hope you come up with something at least a little less ridiculous for your next escapade.

EDIT:

Wanted to add this. Here's a pic of a piece of granite freshly broken out of a quarry using a series of wedges:

Pretty flat already, wouldn't you say?

The pic comes from here, which is actually sort of a wrong-headed website (he thinks they used iron, but it's not necessary) but the site has a series of pictures of that flat slab being broken out of a granite quarry.

Harte

Edited May 1, 2012 by Harte

[Gaden]

Lest we forget, there was an entire group of workers whose sole job was to keep the masons supplied with sharp chisels, meaning, the men doing the finishing work simply exchanged his dull chisel for asharp one and kept on working.

We also must remember that these people did not just suddenly stumble on to this craft, they had hundreds of years of practise. Any society would get incredibly good at this if they dedicated that much time to it.

As for the casing stones, they were of a very soft stone (Tura) which would be very easy to dress. As for the precise fit, simply abut two stone and use a saw to cut down through the joint, you would achieve a perfict fit every time.