the holy trinity

[Knight Of Shadows]

alright this suppose to be a debate on the holy trinity which is by christian belief

the father , the son , and the holy spirit

i am obviously muslim but this is not personal attack or bashing on christians

it's simply a debate which i'll use the very christian bible as way to prove my point

but first i'd like to get something clear .. it's very confusing topic " the holy trinity "

am not familiar on which concept to take as the base one taken in christianty

therefore i'll start simple : the trinity from what i got from christians is

the father , son , holy spirit are the same person .. or entity in other words god

is that true ? and if so i got so many points to debate on that fact alone

and if am wrong so far it'll be nice if some one shed more light on this matter of the holy trinity

before i go on with the topic i'd like to know if i got it right so far regarding the concept of this

and one more thing guys this is suppose to be friendly so don't jump me too soon

[keven3]

yes father son and holy spirit are one God. i cant type much so others will debate with you instead.

God bless you

Keven

[Bella-Angelique]

Good luck with your quest to get orthodox Trinitarians to explain the belief concept of shared consciousness and spiritual energy.

To me herding a hundred cats is easier.

[Knight Of Shadows]

yes father son and holy spirit are one God. i cant type much so others will debate with you instead.

God bless you

Keven

ok thanks for setting this straight

[Knight Of Shadows]

okay since i got it right about the trinity that all of the 3 ... father , son , holy spirit are the same thing they're the one god .. not 3 different things

i'll start with something i made on post in different wrong forum which is the words of the bible that says :

in John 20:17 : Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

the words differ from version to another version of the bible but all of the end with the same words " to MY god and YOUR god "

so jesus said he was ascending to his god .. so in jesus words he's not god .. he's going to ascend to meet god

how is that possiable .. any possiable explantions ?

[Ealdwita]

_{The explanation for that falls into the same category as "How come the three bears didn't rip Goldilocks to shreds when they discovered her eating their porridge?"}

Edited April 30, 2012 by ealdwita

[Knight Of Shadows]

well i didn't get that for sure more explaination man ? you just made it worst

[keven3]

i think he means there is no good answer to your question

[Knight Of Shadows]

but it's all so clear .. it's jesus stating in very clear way he's not god .. and he's going up to meet up with his god isn't it clear ?

[keven3]

i am paralyzed so it is hard to type.your view is understandable. read the book of john for the answer

[Knight Of Shadows]

well am sorry about that .. but this line above is from John

[keven3]

ok. jesus and writings about him are often riddles. the answer is there

[Knight Of Shadows]

it doesn't seem so obscure though .. it's pretty clear there's no riddle the line is very straight

in John 20:17 : Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

and that's not the only line i got alot of points still but am trying to take one at a time so we don't get lost

[keven3]

if i can get someone to type for me ill give a better reply

[Knight Of Shadows]

alright man don't worry you can type back whenever you get a chance am not going anywhere please take your time

[Miss Shadows]

Well, this is just my understanding of it, but for one thing, if God is real, whether he be one entity or composed of a number of parts, he's not secular, is he? It says in the bible that God can be in many places at once, so who's to say that Jesus can't be God, even if he was on earth? Perhaps one way to consider it could be that Jesus was simply an enfleshed projection of God as a spiritual entity? I think for at least myself personally, it'd be hard for me, being of a finite mind, to understand an infinite concept such as God

[Knight Of Shadows]

yeah i reliaze god can be in more than one place at same time but you're missing the point here

that if jesus is enfleshed projection of God as you describe .. then from that line from the bible i posted ... to whom he's ascending then ?

he clearly not talking about him self he state he's ascending to " his " god .. so if he's enfleshed projection of God .. who he was talking about ?

[J. K.]

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere. All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him. He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes. They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics. The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it. Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see. We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

[TheNightOwl]

I

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere. All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him. He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes. They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics. The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it. Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see. We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

That's a great analogy, J. K.

Here's another one: Think of three lit torches. One torch is the Father, the next torch is the Son, and the third torch is the Holy Spirit. Now imagine those three torches held together to form one flame. That one flame is God.

[Knight Of Shadows]

Try this.

Imagine someone who lives on the inside of a sphere. All he can see is the curved surface that surrounds him. He also sees three holes on which lead somewhere that he can't imagine, since all he knows is the inside volume of the sphere.

One day as he is looking at the holes and is wondering what is beyond them, three beings appear through the holes. They resemble each other, but also have their own unique characteristics. The sphere inhabitant perceives them as individuals.

Now imagine that the sphere is actually a bowling ball, and you have just stuck your fingers in it. Your fingers are all part of your hand, and part of you, even though they look separated to the sphere's inhabitant.

In the same way, God lives outside of the world that we can see. We can interact with Him in different ways - Father, Son, Holy Spirit - but each is still God.

am not sure i follow but at the end are you referring that there's 3 gods ? each one of them is god ?

or are they all same one god in different forms ?

and how does that explain jesus saying he's ascending to HIS god .. can god .. have a god too ?

is jesus the god ? and holy spirit is god ? and the father is god ? this is 3 gods so there's 3 gods ? is that what you tried to say at the end ?

3 gods but all of them lead the same way ?

[Knight Of Shadows]

I

That's a great analogy, J. K.

Here's another one: Think of three lit torches. One torch is the Father, the next torch is the Son, and the third torch is the Holy Spirit. Now imagine those three torches held together to form one flame. That one flame is God.

but unfortunatly we're not talking about torches we talking about a person .. or god as you may say that was living and breathing , talking too and refered to mother mary not to cling to him as he's going to ascend to His god .. so who is that god he's going to ascend to

if jesus is god then who was he talking about in that line ?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

God is so 'big' (for want of a better word) that any word' words or ideas we use to describe God only serve to limit the 'bigness' of God so our brains can understand God. The Trinity is like that, three different thnigs that are all part of God' distinct parts of him but till part of him. Like how your hand, your foot and yor hair are distinct parts of you but stil part of you.

Alternatively, God is the Father, Jeseus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the spark of the divine within all of us. All dinstinct, but all connected. At least in C#tholic theology this idea is amewhat heretical though - it goes back to the Council of Nicea. Heretical in that it says Jesus is less divine the God, while prevailing Doctirne is that Jesus is as divine as God.

[3.0]

The Roman Catholic Church says that the Trinity is three persons, but one God. They all have the same spiritual essence, but three individuals. Jesus is held to be human, and Divine; therefore he can say "Your God and my God." Since as a human being his father is his God; but as one of the persons of the Trinity he also is God himself.

Edited April 30, 2012 by 3.0

[Knight Of Shadows]

God is so 'big' (for want of a better word) that any word' words or ideas we use to describe God only serve to limit the 'bigness' of God so our brains can understand God. The Trinity is like that, three different thnigs that are all part of God' distinct parts of him but till part of him. Like how your hand, your foot and yor hair are distinct parts of you but stil part of you.

Alternatively, God is the Father, Jeseus is the Son and the Holy Spirit is the spark of the divine within all of us. All dinstinct, but all connected. At least in C#tholic theology this idea is amewhat heretical though - it goes back to the Council of Nicea. Heretical in that it says Jesus is less divine the God, while prevailing Doctirne is that Jesus is as divine as God.

so you're saying that there's one god .. and the holy spirit and jesus are like part of it .. but not gods .. divine yes but not really gods just part of the One god ?

sorry but am getting all those different ideas so did i put it right ?

[Star of the Sea]

Hi,

In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

P.S. I think that was what Keven was referring to about you looking at John's Gospel.

Edited April 30, 2012 by Star of the Sea