the holy trinity

May 2, 2012

hey there .. and thanks for your reply and yep you guessed right it's not question it's debate

so it doesn't really end with answer it end with proofs

quite a long post this will take a bit let me see

Well I always enjoy a good debate...

so far yes it suits me fine to trackback to the start of the trinity concept
but i have to ask are you referring that the trinity concept was inherted from another religion ?

and yes i read that line about any one who sees god dies .. which is even more confusing coz jesus

is god as the trinity concept says .. but still people saw him and heard him and didn't die

although the bible says in jesus's words that no one has ever saw or heard god

The only religion it was inherited from is Judaism, not as it is known now, but as it was known and practiced in the era of the 2nd Temple period and before. As I said, the Jews were not monotheistic, they were Henotheistic, They believed in a Binatarian Godhead. The Greater and the Lesser Yahweh, The Father and the Son, The King and the Regent. I explained this earlier in my last post.

Jesus himself when asked who he was quoted directly from Daniel where the Regent imagery is given and used the imagery of Yahweh imself to get his point acroos to the High Priest who was interrogating him.

Mark 14:60-65

60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.

Luke 21:25-28

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

This ties back directly to what I said earlier, that the Jews viewed their God with two aspects, One an invisible God that if seen by a man, would die. The other a visible God, who appeared to men as a man. Who was a physical being not a spiritual being, who could eat, drink, and touch other people.

It is this aspect of God, the visible material aspect of God, that Jesus claimed to be. The ancient Jews called him the Memra of God, the term is more well known today as the "Word" of God.

and then we got the idea that they have not saw him in his Real form
but there's also lines from the bibles that says clearly god cannot be human

and that jesus is man not god .. and in jesus own word he says he's a man in the bible

which make it hard to believe that god can take form of man when the bible says he doesn't

and especially when jesus says clearly he's a man

so that my counter to the other form thought and for proofs i wish for you to read the previous post

i'd really like to post them to you but it's like am replying for all so i think am working rapidly here

so it'll be nice if you traced back a bit and see few of lines i provided

And yet we find in the Old Testament, exactly this kind of speech where God is a man and a man is a God. The New Testament demonstrates this quite clearly, where in some passages it is important for Jesus to be viewed as a man, in others it is important to be viewed as a Divine Being, the very visible aspect of God the Father. Even Jesus says this of himself, and he wasn't being figurative.

the contradict flaw in such theories as " the most high god " and of course excuse me i mean no offense here to any one by saying flaws and such it's just from my opinion
the flaw is when you say most high god .. that means there's lesser gods which then could lead

that there's more than one god .. that contradict the bible .. which is the heart of this discussion

and yeah i know what djinns are .. they're not gods or anything holy though and they're not

fallen angels or something they're what you may call demons , but they're not all bad some good some bad

but certinally not angels but you see those beings are not gods never claimed to be gods eiather

so according to the bible .. there's one god and according to jesus as well

just because there's beings different than humans .. doesn't make them gods

Yes all true, but you should be seeing the terms as they are portrayed in the bible, for themselves and in the bible, these beings are exactly the false gods of the nations. In their idolatry, God himself placed them there.

In short, he delegated the task of looking after mankind to his Heavenly Host. The bible is absolutely clear on this issue. He took one nation as his own, Israel. He set it apart and it became his nation. All the others were delegated to a series of lower gods, the bene elohim.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

To confirm the above we have another.

Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly host—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

but to all those theories of gods .. am trying to constrate on the bible and jesus and the trinity
and you're taking wide spread angle of things which i don't mind

but it takes me further away from the topic at hand which i try to keep focus on the bible

and the trinity and the well being of jesus and who god is according to the bible

i understand you trying to trace back the trinity source

but the more you talk about it .. the more it seems to me that the trinity was inherted from differnt

religion or culture or something ? is that what you trying to say ?

I'm saying that the Old Testament is clear, that God as we know him today, was seen differently by the Jews and that to say that the Jews are Monotheistic is a false assertion. It is true to day, but is not true inregards to the past.

They believed in a God who had two very real and defined aspects, one was spiritual, the other was physical. Both were called by the same name, Yahweh.

Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh, when he uses that imagery, which I quoted earlier in regards to himself. This is undeniable and it is the reason the High Priest felt justified in condemning him to death for blasphemy.

well it was pretty long read but thanks for writing it took you a time to write obviously
and i gave my best reading it but perhaps you'd like to go back and see

what i have posted about the bible and quote from it lines that suggest that jesus wasn't god

and suggested that god cannot be human .. also jesus admitting he's a man etc etc

thanks for the time you took to post it

Thank, I did do that, but you are seeing things from a different perspective, the bible tells us a different story, the History of Jewish worship tells us a different story, and what I have said is accepted within academic circles. The Baal cycle is very well known, the Baal imagery in the Old testament is also very well known, and Jewish scholars themselves admit to the existence of the "Two Powers in Heaven" heresy, as it is known today.

I know you are extremely busy answering all these posts, but could I ask you to take a second look at my 1st post and read all the links I gave, it will help you and it will facilitate our discussion if you know where I am coming from.

May 2, 2012

.. that last line kinda of scary coz am bearly keeping up am trying to reply to every single post

so that'll be scary but hey am up for it as long you read the quotes so i don't have to repeat them more often

good to see you man

You appear to be looking at God as a physical entity? Jesus was god in human form his representative on earth, feeling all the pain of mankind he appeals to his heavenly entity as father, note he's not calling out to Joseph.

May 2, 2012

You appear to be looking at God as a physical entity? Jesus was god in human form his representative on earth, feeling all the pain of mankind he appeals to his heavenly entity as father, note he's not calling out to Joseph.

am looking at god the way the bible described him not my own view and the way jesus described him

<< 1 Corinthians 15:28 >>

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

------------------

jesus admits that every thing will subdued to Him " god " and the son " jesus " will also be subjected to Him " God "

therfore jesus openly saying he is like every living being out there like all humans .. will be subdued to god along with everything else

May 2, 2012

Well I always enjoy a good debate...

The only religion it was inherited from is Judaism, not as it is known now, but as it was known and practiced in the era of the 2nd Temple period and before. As I said, the Jews were not monotheistic, they were Henotheistic, They believed in a Binatarian Godhead. The Greater and the Lesser Yahweh, The Father and the Son, The King and the Regent. I explained this earlier in my last post.

Jesus himself when asked who he was quoted directly from Daniel where the Regent imagery is given and used the imagery of Yahweh imself to get his point acroos to the High Priest who was interrogating him.

Mark 14:60-65

60 Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.

Luke 21:25-28

25 “There will be signs in the sun, moon and stars. On the earth, nations will be in anguish and perplexity at the roaring and tossing of the sea. 26 People will faint from terror, apprehensive of what is coming on the world, for the heavenly bodies will be shaken. 27 At that time they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. 28 When these things begin to take place, stand up and lift up your heads, because your redemption is drawing near.”

This ties back directly to what I said earlier, that the Jews viewed their God with two aspects, One an invisible God that if seen by a man, would die. The other a visible God, who appeared to men as a man. Who was a physical being not a spiritual being, who could eat, drink, and touch other people.

It is this aspect of God, the visible material aspect of God, that Jesus claimed to be. The ancient Jews called him the Memra of God, the term is more well known today as the "Word" of God.

And yet we find in the Old Testament, exactly this kind of speech where God is a man and a man is a God. The New Testament demonstrates this quite clearly, where in some passages it is important for Jesus to be viewed as a man, in others it is important to be viewed as a Divine Being, the very visible aspect of God the Father. Even Jesus says this of himself, and he wasn't being figurative.

Yes all true, but you should be seeing the terms as they are portrayed in the bible, for themselves and in the bible, these beings are exactly the false gods of the nations. In their idolatry, God himself placed them there.

In short, he delegated the task of looking after mankind to his Heavenly Host. The bible is absolutely clear on this issue. He took one nation as his own, Israel. He set it apart and it became his nation. All the others were delegated to a series of lower gods, the bene elohim.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9

8 When the Most High gave the nations their inheritance, when he divided all mankind, he set up boundaries for the peoples according to the number of the sons of God.

9 For the LORD's portion is his people, Jacob his allotted inheritance.

To confirm the above we have another.

Deuteronomy 4:19

19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly host—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven.

I'm saying that the Old Testament is clear, that God as we know him today, was seen differently by the Jews and that to say that the Jews are Monotheistic is a false assertion. It is true to day, but is not true inregards to the past.

They believed in a God who had two very real and defined aspects, one was spiritual, the other was physical. Both were called by the same name, Yahweh.

Jesus himself declares that he is Yahweh, when he uses that imagery, which I quoted earlier in regards to himself. This is undeniable and it is the reason the High Priest felt justified in condemning him to death for blasphemy.

Thank, I did do that, but you are seeing things from a different perspective, the bible tells us a different story, the History of Jewish worship tells us a different story, and what I have said is accepted within academic circles. The Baal cycle is very well known, the Baal imagery in the Old testament is also very well known, and Jewish scholars themselves admit to the existence of the "Two Powers in Heaven" heresy, as it is known today.

I know you are extremely busy answering all these posts, but could I ask you to take a second look at my 1st post and read all the links I gave, it will help you and it will facilitate our discussion if you know where I am coming from.

hey there i have read your first post but it seemed to me you're taking different approach to the topic

i know we all have different backgrounds but to discuss something about christianity

the approach to it should be strictly from christinity .. not other faiths

with all due respect to all other faiths and religions

i don't exactly see how a different faith existance of " greater god " and " lesser god "

could actually explain the trinity in christianty

simply because that other faith is build on something entirely different

i don't claim that knowledge about jewish faith my self so i can't argue there

beside i like to keep it simple to my self with one thing at a time so i don't loose my tracks

let me put it simple without tracing back in history and mixing between faiths

cause we'll reach no results doing that

the trinity as christian faith suggest : is that god is one .. yet 3 separated gods but they're all equal one

i recived different replies but can be put in generally two types :

1- jesus is not a god .. but a son of god and the father is the real god

2- jesus is god , holy spirit is god , the father is god and they're all the same entity

now both of these options are highly argueable within the bible itself

the fact that jesus is shown as man and god at same time does not sit well

not according to me but according to what's written in the bible

there's many things i can use as proof to my claims from the holy bible

but i named them already i got still more but what's the use of posting More lines

if the ones i already posted aren't explained yet

now you post let me address your lines from the bible :

Mark 14:60-65

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.

-------------------

i can stil argue with that as to the part where jesus says you will see the son of " man "

first jesus describe him self as son of man .. not only that he goes on

" sitting at the right hand of the might one " which refeer that there's almighty one in jesus view

that almighty one is his superior .. otherwise he wouldn't call him that beside other lines from the bible

that back up my point

now that doesn't seem to be the talk of god .. about him self

if jesus is the same as god all the same entity then his words are not making any sense

and jesus wasn't one to talk with nonsense or say things by mistake

apart from that i can give you lines from the bible where jesus admit inability to act alone

and being " commanded " by his superior to act in certain way

but the lines are within the previous posts if you read them what would you comment on that ?

yeah i understand what you were saying about jews and how they view their god in two aspects

but thing is am not talking about jews am talking about chritianty and the bible

and within the bible i can argue you hard using the bible it self to prove

that god does not walk on earth or is able to be contained in human body

again the lines of my back up are within other posts on the topic

the only reason am not posting them simply because i posted them too much

repeating them would be annoying for me and others

and it's not how people view jesus that matters .. it's how he viewed him self

in the bible and how he viewed his god or superior also within the bible

and how he describe him self and his god within the bibles

and all the lines within the bibles point directly to jesus eaither was sent by superior ..

doesn't do as he please he seek to please his superior .. unable to make things on his own

etc etc etc etc there's many examples

so people might view him the way they want according to their opinions

but what matters is what's written within the bible it self

those lines combined .. as to say jesus says he's a man .. jesus says he was sent by god

jesus says he was commanded by god .. jesus says his father is his superior ..

jesus says he's unable to act on his own .. jesus says he seek to please him " who sent him "

those pose serious point that jesus was not viewing him self as god

and to have other lines in the bible despite those facts that suggest that jesus is god

is kinda of troubling so we got different opposing pointviews in same book

in my pointview the the lines that jesus admit god superiorty to him and admits he was sent by god

out weight the lines he admit he's a god

coz let's face it .. it's a holy book we don't simply pick the lines where jesus says he's a god

and ignore other lines when jesus admit being lesser than god and unable to act alone

and " inablity " is not attrubite of gods especially when jesus follow that line

with phase saying that he only seek to please who sent him that's very clear

he's not the same with that mentioned superior

and thanks for your post i don't believe i see things in different perspective

am only looking at it from the bible's view not my personal view

am using the bible to prove my point not my personal statements as well

and yep i read your first post like i said earlier it doesn't matter our background

when discussions go on it only matters the pointview presented

and to look at that point from the discussed faith perspective

such as i did by using the bible and ONLY the bible to prove my points

May 2, 2012

hey there i have read your first post but it seemed to me you're taking different approach to the topic

i know we all have different backgrounds but to discuss something about christianity

the approach to it should be strictly from christinity .. not other faiths

with all due respect to all other faiths and religions

i don't exactly see how a different faith existance of " greater god " and " lesser god "

could actually explain the trinity in christianty

simply because that other faith is build on something entirely different

i don't claim that knowledge about jewish faith my self so i can't argue there

beside i like to keep it simple to my self with one thing at a time so i don't loose my tracks

let me put it simple without tracing back in history and mixing between faiths

cause we'll reach no results doing that

the trinity as christian faith suggest : is that god is one .. yet 3 separated gods but they're all equal one

i recived different replies but can be put in generally two types :

1- jesus is not a god .. but a son of god and the father is the real god

2- jesus is god , holy spirit is god , the father is god and they're all the same entity

now both of these options are highly argueable within the bible itself

the fact that jesus is shown as man and god at same time does not sit well

not according to me but according to what's written in the bible

there's many things i can use as proof to my claims from the holy bible

but i named them already i got still more but what's the use of posting More lines

if the ones i already posted aren't explained yet

now you post let me address your lines from the bible :

Mark 14:60-65

Then the high priest stood up before them and asked Jesus, “Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?” 61 But Jesus remained silent and gave no answer.

Again the high priest asked him, “Are you the Messiah, the Son of the Blessed One?”

62 “I am,” said Jesus. “And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.”

63 The high priest tore his clothes. “Why do we need any more witnesses?” he asked. 64 “You have heard the blasphemy. What do you think?”

They all condemned him as worthy of death. 65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him, struck him with their fists, and said, “Prophesy!” And the guards took him and beat him.

-------------------

i can stil argue with that as to the part where jesus says you will see the son of " man "

first jesus describe him self as son of man .. not only that he goes on

" sitting at the right hand of the might one " which refeer that there's almighty one in jesus view

that almighty one is his superior .. otherwise he wouldn't call him that beside other lines from the bible

that back up my point

now that doesn't seem to be the talk of god .. about him self

if jesus is the same as god all the same entity then his words are not making any sense

and jesus wasn't one to talk with nonsense or say things by mistake

apart from that i can give you lines from the bible where jesus admit inability to act alone

and being " commanded " by his superior to act in certain way

but the lines are within the previous posts if you read them what would you comment on that ?

yeah i understand what you were saying about jews and how they view their god in two aspects

but thing is am not talking about jews am talking about chritianty and the bible

and within the bible i can argue you hard using the bible it self to prove

that god does not walk on earth or is able to be contained in human body

again the lines of my back up are within other posts on the topic

the only reason am not posting them simply because i posted them too much

repeating them would be annoying for me and others

and it's not how people view jesus that matters .. it's how he viewed him self

in the bible and how he viewed his god or superior also within the bible

and how he describe him self and his god within the bibles

and all the lines within the bibles point directly to jesus eaither was sent by superior ..

doesn't do as he please he seek to please his superior .. unable to make things on his own

etc etc etc etc there's many examples

so people might view him the way they want according to their opinions

but what matters is what's written within the bible it self

those lines combined .. as to say jesus says he's a man .. jesus says he was sent by god

jesus says he was commanded by god .. jesus says his father is his superior ..

jesus says he's unable to act on his own .. jesus says he seek to please him " who sent him "

those pose serious point that jesus was not viewing him self as god

and to have other lines in the bible despite those facts that suggest that jesus is god

is kinda of troubling so we got different opposing pointviews in same book

in my pointview the the lines that jesus admit god superiorty to him and admits he was sent by god

out weight the lines he admit he's a god

coz let's face it .. it's a holy book we don't simply pick the lines where jesus says he's a god

and ignore other lines when jesus admit being lesser than god and unable to act alone

and " inablity " is not attrubite of gods especially when jesus follow that line

with phase saying that he only seek to please who sent him that's very clear

he's not the same with that mentioned superior

and thanks for your post i don't believe i see things in different perspective

am only looking at it from the bible's view not my personal view

am using the bible to prove my point not my personal statements as well

and yep i read your first post like i said earlier it doesn't matter our background

when discussions go on it only matters the pointview presented

and to look at that point from the discussed faith perspective

such as i did by using the bible and ONLY the bible to prove my points

Thank you for your time, Knight of Shadows, but I don't think I will continue to debate you.

The issue here is a resolution to the Trinity issue, that is what you wanted to debate. I gave you demonstrable evidence from both academic and non-christian sources, which are not biased. You have chosen the harder path, that of battling verses... I leave you to it then. If one does not know Judaism, they will not know the foundational beliefs of christianity.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jor-el

May 2, 2012

Thank you for your time, Knight of Shadows, but I don't think I will continue to debate you.

The issue here is a resolution to the Trinity issue, that is what you wanted to debate. I gave you demonstrable evidence from both academic and non-christian sources, which are not biased. You have chosen the harder path, that of battling verses... I leave you to it then. If one does not know Judaism, they will not know christianity.

well if that's what you wish

beside i don't think it's the hard path .. christianity reliy on the bible as the core of it's belief

i cannot use concepts from other religions to prove or disprove something otherwise i'd already have used some from my own religion

but that's not the case am not arguing a religion against another

am arguing christianity it self by it self from the holy bible as the guide and heart of my debate

i'd gladly give you more lines to prove my points if you wish to know more of my case had you changed your mind further

and thanks for sparing your time to reply :yes:

May 2, 2012

well if that's what you wish

beside i don't think it's the hard path .. christianity reliy on the bible as the core of it's belief

i cannot use concepts from other religions to prove or disprove something otherwise i'd already have used some from my own religion

but that's not the case am not arguing a religion against another

am arguing christianity it self by it self from the holy bible as the guide and heart of my debate

i'd gladly give you more lines to prove my points if you wish to know more of my case had you changed your mind further

and thanks for sparing your time to reply

I would disagree simply because for you to accept what the bible states and what everyone else can see clearly is blocked by your preconcieved views which you base your faith on. Now this is a natural tendency in all people, it is not a slight or an insult in any way. It is simply a fact.

When I studied Hinduism I had to understand it from the basis which Hiundus view their texts, because if I had to interpret those texts from a christian viewpoint, I would spend more time disagreeing with what i read than accepting the information that it provided solely on its own merits.

The same can be said for my study on Islam and the same again for my study on Judaism.

That is the straightforward reason why you cannot accept Jesus as being God. It is not because it isn't clearly stated in dozens of passages, but because you are using a filter that should not be there, when you read them.

Christianity didn't spring up from nothing. It isn't even truly a religion on its own. It owes everything to Judaism, even its outlook toward God in the form of the Trinity. Thus if one wants to find out about the Trinity, one must necessarily go to Judaism, not as it stands toaday, but as it was 2000 years ago in the time of Jesus.

Anyone with a background in the Old testament can identify all the passages which brought the Trinity into its present state of interpretation, whether or not that interpretation is biblically correct or not isn't even the issue. that is simply where one MUST start.

To argue bible verses back and forth that the early christians didn't even use in their beliefs is in my view a waste of time, since they won't explain anything to those who have not studied the matter. The early christians had no New Testament. Their entire basis and outlook depended uniquely on the Old Testament, so if one wants to find the Trinity, or whether one wants to determine whether Jesus is in fact Divine and a part of the Godhead, one has to start where they did, The Old Testament.

Edited May 2, 2012 by Jor-el

May 2, 2012

I would disagree simply because for you to accept what the bible states and what everyone else can see clearly is blocked by your preconcieved views which you base your faith on. Now this is a natural tendency in all people, it is not a slight or an insult in any way. It is simply a fact.

When I studied Hinduism I had to understand it from the basis which Hiundus view their texts, because if I had to interpret those texts from a christian viewpoint, I would spend more time disagreeing with what i read than accepting the information that it provided solely on its own merits.

The same can be said for my study on Islam and the same again for my study on Judaism.

That is the straightforward reason why you cannot accept Jesus as being God. It is not because it isn't clearly stated in dozens of passages, but because you are using a filter that should not be there, when you read them.

Christianity didn't spring up from nothing. It isn't even truly a religion on its own. It owes everything to Judaism, even its outlook toward God in the form of the Trinity. Thus if one wants to find out about the Trinity, one must necessarily go to Judaism, not as it stands toaday, but as it was 2000 years ago in the time of Jesus.

Anyone with a background in the Old testament can identify all the passages which brought the Trinity into its present state of interpretation, whether or not that interpretation is biblically correct or not isn't even the issue. that is simply where one MUST start.

To argue bible verses back and forth that the early christians didn't even use in their beliefs is in my view a waste of time, since they won't explain anything to those who have not studied the matter. The early christians had no New Testament. Their entire basis and outlook depended uniquely on the Old Testament, so if one wants to find the Trinity, or whether one wants to determine whether Jesus is in fact Divine and a part of the Godhead, one has to start where they did, The Old Testament.

but i have not looked at the trinity from islamic view i have looked it from the way other memebers suggested

i considered that all 3 father son holy spirit are 1 god and based my argument on that i haven't used anything " out " of christanity

and what am using beside that is logic " which is simple words meaning "

let me demonstrate in very interesting line from the bible

<< Acts 3:13 >>

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

------------

i don't how clear it can get .. but the bible describe jesus as servant of god as all people are

so how come he is a god .. and was glorified " by god " and yet he's also a servant of god

but don't just press the quote botton yet coz it gets even more interesting

let's take that part of the bible from above .. and link it to other line .. say to this one

<< John 13:16 >>

I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

------------

now let's combine these two lines from the bible we get one line that says jesus is servant of god

and other one that says there's no servant greater than his master

therefore a result jesus is no greater than the god who glorified him in the first line

or the one who sent him so a nature result they cannot be the same if they're not equal

-----------------------

now see above i have not used my own religion as judge on the matter i used the bible it self

and connected the lines since the bible have no contradiction as christians believe .. so i do " within this debate "

that gives my lines the crediablity that those lines combine fine without contradiction

to prove both jesus was servant of god ... and that servants cannot be compared to god

therefore jesus and god are not equal

see i did that without even looking at things from different prespective but from the bible view

May 2, 2012

Hi Knight. I think what you are failing to see and understand is that Jesus is both an individual and God. The Bible does indeed reference Jesus in both of these terms. I think you are "cherry-picking" quotes that try to prove your point, without understanding everything as a whole (you are apparently unwilling to accept that Jesus can be both human and God - in other words for you its either/or not both). Jesus is the living manifestation of the divine on Earth. Jesus is the physical embodiment of God. He is a man while at the same time He is God. As a man, He must be human (ie. He must sleep, eat, feel pain, etc.) But at the exact same time (and this is what Mr. Walker pointed out), Jesus also has that connection to God that allows him to have special powers and knowledge of people/places/events/etc. As a man, Jesus is dependent on God for everything (just as we are - we depend on God to heal our sick friends, comfort us in our time of need, etc). As God Jesus is able to heal the sick, raise the dead, create fish, calm storms and and any other control over our temporal/physical universe. Jesus even forgives sin in someone, which is something only God himself can do. Jesus knows WHO and WHAT He is and clearly states this in the relevant passages. Several people in this thread have given you examples of how this is possible, and for some reason you refuse to accept the postulation that Jesus can be both human and divine even though the Bible clearly points out both. I agree with Jor-el that you are basing your argument on your preconceived notions. I'm off for the night and will read your (and others) responses tomorrow.

May 2, 2012

but i have not looked at the trinity from islamic view i have looked it from the way other memebers suggested

i considered that all 3 father son holy spirit are 1 god and based my argument on that i haven't used anything " out " of christanity

and what am using beside that is logic " which is simple words meaning "

let me demonstrate in very interesting line from the bible

Yes true, but most people speaking here are christians and are locked into the chrsistian viewpoint. Many wouldn't be able to tell you how that view originated and in what circumstances it did so. They can quote the relevant New Testament texts, but they do not know why they exist in the 1st place and the reasons they are considered evidence of Jesus Divinity

<< Acts 3:13 >>
The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

------------

i don't how clear it can get .. but the bible describe jesus as servant of god as all people are so how come he is a god .. and was glorified " by god " and yet he's also a servant of god but don't just press the quote botton yet coz it gets even more interesting let's take that part of the bible from above .. and link it to other line .. say to this one

<< John 13:16 >>

I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

------------

now let's combine these two lines from the bible we get one line that says jesus is servant of god and other one that says there's no servant greater than his master therefore a result jesus is no greater than the god who glorified him in the first line or the one who sent him so a nature result they cannot be the same if they're not equal

-----------------------

Absolutely, but even Jesus does not equate himself with the Father, even in heaven he is the "Word" of the Father. God speaks through his word to mankind. We are not comparing importance or nature, we are comparing Heirarchy. In all things Jesus is subject to the Father, after all, He is NOT the father. But in terms of "nature", both Father and Son are the same, they are one. That is why we use the term "Godhead" to speak of the Trinity. One is as eternal as the other, one is as Divine as the other, they are simply distinct in Heirarchy and appearance. Each having a distinct form.

One is invisible and the 1st cause of everything, the other is his visible manifestation to the physcial universe, His literal word, or Mouthpiece if you prefer. The Father is Yahweh, but so is the Son. One is the King the other is the Regent, who actually rules. This is clear in Daniel among other places. There is no mistaking the divine nature of the servant.

now see above i have not used my own religion as judge on the matter i used the bible it self and connected the lines since the bible have no contradiction as christians believe .. so i do " within this debate " that gives my lines the crediablity that those lines combine fine without contradiction to prove both jesus was servant of god ... and that servants cannot be compared to god therefore jesus and god are not equal

Isn't it also true that there are numerous passages that demonstrate his Divine nature? It is the coexistence of both aspects within the text that allow us to determine who Jesus was, not the concentration on just one of those aspects. See, nobody is saying that he wasn't human, what we are saying is that the visible manifestation of the Godhead, as seen within the Old Testament, became a flesh and blood being through birth.

He could become flesh whenever he chose. Flesh is merely a covering that allows us to operate in the material universe, after all. He appeared to Abraham and ate with him, he appeared to Jacob and fought with him, He appeared to Jeremiah and touched him. He appeared dozens of times to every Patriarch and Prophet in the bible and in most of these cases where God visibly appears, who do you think that is?

It is this person, this "lesser Yahweh" who inhabited a foetus created just for him, so that he could take the ultimate step and be born human.

The term Godhead does not mean a person, it is a unity of 3 distinct individualities. When we refer to God, we are referring to the Father, so in this respect Jesus is not God, but he is a part of the Godhead and has the nature of the Father, in that that he is as eternal as the Father. He is not a created being, neither is he merely a facet of God. In terms of Divine Nature, he is as much God as God the Father.

But this is not something people will understand unless they know the History and beliefs of the Hebrew people. Very few have heard of the term "The Memra of God", very few know why that term explains John 1:1. And very few realize what the implications of this are in their beliefs.

see i did that without even looking at things from different prespective but from the bible view

"Please do us a favour... research the term "Yahweh the Cloud Rider ", see what you can find out about it... then tell me Jesus is not God and that he never said he was.

Then you can say that you aren't looking at things from a different perspective.

P.S. - Please be aware that when I say "God" in this context, I am referring to the Godhead, not God the Father.

May 2, 2012

There is much Christian dogma which has no basis in the Bible so I can understand your confusion. The concept of the Trinity is one of them although it appears very early in church history. If you are interested in such discrepancies, and there are many, look for the origin of that particular teaching to see whether it has a root in the scriptures. I don't believe that I am exagerating when I say that most religions have different explanations of original texts.

May 2, 2012

Yes true, but most people speaking here are christians and are locked into the chrsistian viewpoint. Many wouldn't be able to tell you how that view originated and in what circumstances it did so. They can quote the relevant New Testament texts, but they do not know why they exist in the 1st place and the reasons they are considered evidence of Jesus Divinity

Absolutely, but even Jesus does not equate himself with the Father, even in heaven he is the "Word" of the Father. God speaks through his word to mankind. We are not comparing importance or nature, we are comparing Heirarchy. In all things Jesus is subject to the Father, after all, He is NOT the father. But in terms of "nature", both Father and Son are the same, they are one. That is why we use the term "Godhead" to speak of the Trinity. One is as eternal as the other, one is as Divine as the other, they are simply distinct in Heirarchy and appearance. Each having a distinct form.

One is invisible and the 1st cause of everything, the other is his visible manifestation to the physcial universe, His literal word, or Mouthpiece if you prefer. The Father is Yahweh, but so is the Son. One is the King the other is the Regent, who actually rules. This is clear in Daniel among other places. There is no mistaking the divine nature of the servant.

Isn't it also true that there are numerous passages that demonstrate his Divine nature? It is the coexistence of both aspects within the text that allow us to determine who Jesus was, not the concentration on just one of those aspects. See, nobody is saying that he wasn't human, what we are saying is that the visible manifestation of the Godhead, as seen within the Old Testament, became a flesh and blood being through birth.

He could become flesh whenever he chose. Flesh is merely a covering that allows us to operate in the material universe, after all. He appeared to Abraham and ate with him, he appeared to Jacob and fought with him, He appeared to Jeremiah and touched him. He appeared dozens of times to every Patriarch and Prophet in the bible and in most of these cases where God visibly appears, who do you think that is?

It is this person, this "lesser Yahweh" who inhabited a foetus created just for him, so that he could take the ultimate step and be born human.

The term Godhead does not mean a person, it is a unity of 3 distinct individualities. When we refer to God, we are referring to the Father, so in this respect Jesus is not God, but he is a part of the Godhead and has the nature of the Father, in that that he is as eternal as the Father. He is not a created being, neither is he merely a facet of God. In terms of Divine Nature, he is as much God as God the Father.

But this is not something people will understand unless they know the History and beliefs of the Hebrew people. Very few have heard of the term "The Memra of God", very few know why that term explains John 1:1. And very few realize what the implications of this are in their beliefs.

"Please do us a favour... research the term "Yahweh the Cloud Rider ", see what you can find out about it... then tell me Jesus is not God and that he never said he was.

Then you can say that you aren't looking at things from a different perspective.

P.S. - Please be aware that when I say "God" in this context, I am referring to the Godhead, not God the Father.

ok you started off making sense based on the bible but again it's come back to the same thing

with all the evidence i gave you " from the bible " and you agree jesus is not the father

still you say in speak of nature the father and son are the same ? how can that make sense ?

i have given you lines proves from the bible by jesus own word admitting the superiority to god

as for described as being servant of god .. and servants are not match to the master

yet you tell me he's the same as god and they're one .. by doing this you're ignoring the bible's own words

ok now i got new term to research " godhead " but before i set off to that

i highly disagree with you here .. you saying jesus as divine as the other and eternal as the other

by the bible's jesus saying the father is greater than him .. that blows away they both divine in same level

and according to the bible jesus is UNABLE to act on his own god is able to that too prove you wrong

.. the line that backs it up back in the posts it's not my own words it's the bible's

so again by the bible's words i tell you jesus seperate him self from god by miles

you say straight and clear they are the same and one and i gave both evidence and explaintions

from the bible that they're not the same neither they are one OR equal

neither that god takes form of humans or live among humans the bible proves you wrong again on this one

which by the following lines .. according to the bible of course :

<< 1 Kings 8:27 >>

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

-------------------

as an answer to the temple was built the answer was god does not live in houses made by men .. jesus did

clearly it's saying that god would not be contained on the whole earth .. not to mention a human body

and another one

<< 1 Corinthians 15:50 >>

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

------------------

so it seems to me you're not making sense first you agree that the father is not the son ..

but you again say in nature they are the same and they are one ?

help me understand you more can you be more clear .. is jesus the father him self .. or not

if yes .. am already debating this and proving it wrong " using the bible "

if no then who is jesus ? son of god ? another god ? certinally he view him self differnet from god

the father .. therefore if jesus says he's not his equal in the bible .. how can we say he's one with him

because honestly you mixed up in the that post saying something then saying the opposite

now let me move on the rest of the topic

yeah it's true there's passages that demostrate his divine nature but there's passages that does not

and i think they outweight the divinity passages by meaning and content

the thing is .. being a man .. and a god is highly arguable .. again based on the bible and the lines

i gave you above .. so jesus is eiather a man .. or a god and i already provided evdience from the bible

by jesus stating he's a man and he's sent by the mighy one and he have no ability to act on his own

the lesser yahweh you say .. so there's bigger yahweh .. thefore they're not equal results they're not the same

neither they are one .. a tall man and short man cannot be the same .. and two things cannot be one

it's eiather they're different two .. or it's only one taking the shape of two " which i been proving wrong "

good now the term of Godhead becoming clear as you explain it

3 " Distinct " indiviualities = not equal . not the same . not one " bible's lines as prove and jesus own words"

now carrying on with the term God = the father , therefore jesus is not a god as you state this make sense

but then you say as part of godhead he has the nature of his father ? " despite " his claims other wise ?

within the bible of course !

ohhh and you done it again " i was actually following the line and got shocked "

after clearly saying the father is the god .. and jesus is not god compared to him

but he is god .. you continue and eternal as the father .. and not created by the father !!?

so we got two gods ! but .. but.. bible proves you wrong again .. and i'll Gladly give you the prove

<< 1 Corinthians 8:6 >>

But we know that there is only one God, the Father, who created everything, and we live for him. And there is only one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom God made everything and through whom we have been given life.

-------------

stated perfectly clear everything created by the father .. the only god " ONLY " god

that's the bible who says so not me and the line suggest that god doing things " through " jesus

like a messanger .. a link if i may say so without any one taking offense

that's clearly not only saying that there's ONLY one god which is the father " not jesus "

it also state that god made Everything .. including jesus

the term lord can be said to humans so it's arguable .. but the term GOD can only be applied

to one entity which is GOD

let me give you example from science .. i used a cord to supply electricity from the source of power

to my PC ... the cord is not the source but merely a link to connect the source with the pc

that doesn't mean that the link can produce power on it's own cut the source power

and the link will no longer produce .. coz it's a link .. not a source

and through that line from the bible it clearly states that GOD is the source of all

and through jesus " as a link " to god

so again .. based on the bible he is not equal to god .. and not as much divine as god

as the Godhead concept states .. it oppose the bible which is the heart of faith remember ?

would you take a concept instead of the bible which is guide in this faith ? certinally not

before i search for the " yahweh the cloud rider " is this part of the bible ? if so please provide me

with the source so i can give it a look coz as i stated .. the bible is the guide to the faith

therefore it's the guide to my debate

concepts from different sources does not concern my debate nor would i use to prove or disaprove

May 2, 2012

There is much Christian dogma which has no basis in the Bible so I can understand your confusion. The concept of the Trinity is one of them although it appears very early in church history. If you are interested in such discrepancies, and there are many, look for the origin of that particular teaching to see whether it has a root in the scriptures. I don't believe that I am exagerating when I say that most religions have different explanations of original texts.

now that's a short .. but reasonable reply which bring a question if it's not in the bible .. then why it's within the faith ?

who allowed it within the faith ? if god and jesus in the bible never put it there ? what got it in the faith ?

isn't the bible is the source and guide in the faith ?

May 3, 2012

So im new to this forum stuff but this is a re: re: to Knight of Shadows (i didnt know how to do an official reply or anything like that haha)

For what you were saying about Jesus having a superior being above him if you will, is correct to an extent. Jesus was basically God, manifested in the flesh, but when you look at different scriptures like the ones you stated, we see Jesus admitting that theres something superior to him, but from the way that I understand it, is that Jesus was saying that from his fleshly, human, man part of him.

For example, when Jesus knew that he was going to die, he went to the garden of gathsemine, and he wept tears of blood, and basically had the flesh side of him praying to God asking that if there were any otgers that God could put in Jesus's place so that the prophecies and promises be fulfilled then he would rather have that. Jesus, the flesh side, didnt want to go and be killed but he knew that in order for everything to work out, it had to be that way.

I dont know if that reallt made much sense but thats kind of a small explanation, and also yes, I view God as being ONE indivisible God who is omniscient, omnipresent, and omnipotent.

May 3, 2012

Knight

am arguing christianity it self by it self from the holy bible as the guide and heart of my debate

if it's not in the bible .. then why it's within the faith ?
who allowed it within the faith ? if god and jesus in the bible never put it there ? what got it in the faith ? isn't the bible is the source and guide in the faith ?

No. Sola Scriptura is peculiar to one branch of Christianity which appeared in force about 500 years ago. The majority of Nicene Christians, who belong to older churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholcs), believe that the Deposit of Faith includes not only the canonical scriptures, but also Tradition (mostly the religious scholarship and liturgy of early Christians) and Reason.

Ironically for an adverse discussion of the Trinity, even many among the sola scriptura minority are reluctant to view the Bible as a mere fetish. It is not the text, then, but rather the Holy Spirit guiding the reader who imparts knowledge. The majority also sees a role for the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Deposit of Faith, but often have less individualistic theories than the Protestants, and, of course, for them, the Holy Spirit's remit isn't restricted just to the Bible.

So, you are arguing one branch of Protestantism against the rest of Nicene Christianity.Or you would be, if taking some verses of John and omitting the rest were representative of Protestant thought or their typical approach to Biblical study.

Some special attention is also needed for your remark "...if god and jesus in the bible never put it there." Jesus didn't write any of the New Testament, and it is a key feature of the book that it was written by men. If not, then the Christian witness isn't historical. The Nicene Creed speaks for itself about the centrality of historical witness being a pillar of Christianity, as does the earlier Apostles' Creed, still professed by most of the Nicenes (and some non-Nicenes, too).

There is a theory of "inspration," which gives God a role in Biblical composition and, as already explained, a complementary theoory of a divine role in Bible reading. Nevertheless the phrase "Word of God" simply doesn't mean for Christians what the corresponding phrase means for Muslims when applied to the Koran.

May 3, 2012

so jesus is god the son is god .. the father is god .. holy spirit is god and they're all 3 forms of one god

but that can easily be disproven by using the bible it self as jesus him self

distinctly serprate him self from god and admit that god is his superior who sent him

and that jesus doesn't act on his own but by a command from his superior father

i'll copy to you what i said to other members as back up to my claims on the matter

it's part of my post replying to the member " MrJLW100 "

__________________

<< John 14:28 >>

"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

and jesus also stated his inability to act alone .. and do what he please .. but to please the one who sent him

<< John 5:30 >>

By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

also jesus talk of being commanded by something he consider more powerful than him

<< John 12:49 >>

For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it.

also jesus states at some point he's a man telling a truth he heard from god

<< John 8:40 >>

As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things.

__________________

so it's clearly jesus admiting there's superior to him which is the one who sent him and commanded him

the one that jesus cannot act without him

that's pretty serprate jesus from god and put him in lesser position than god

according to the bible of course

No the bible doesnt disprove this theological view of god (or the way i experience god) It actually reinforces it. Remember that jesus is speaking as a man to other men. Sometimes he speaks as the earthly man. Sometimes as the spirit, and , sometimes as himself before and after his short years on earth.

Let us suppose that my consciousness was connected to gods and spanned millenia. I could talk to people about our shared physical time on earth (my 60 mortal years, or in jesus case about 30 years) with one "voice."

But when i spoke of my experiences with god inside those 60 years, i would be using a different "voice" and different terminology/language.. It would include the knowledge and empowerments god shared with me over those times, and the experience of the power of the holy spirit during my earthly life.

But, as such an eternal consciousness; if I spoke of my knowledge and memories of god from 2000, 10000, or 50000 years ago, I would be speaking again with a different "voice."

While jesus was on earth he was the son of god just as we are all, in biblical theology, sons of god. In jesus case he was, biblically, LITERALLY the physical son of god.

But jesus existed before and after his time on earth. (in christian understanding) He was/is not the son of god before he comes to earth nor is he AFTER he goes back to "heaven". There, he is one part of the totality of god .

This is a critical difference in belief between christianity and islam. However it is not necessarily a stumbing block. Humans can come to god and connect to him in many ways and via many religious forms. The relationship betwen man and god is a natural and already existing one. Any one can access it One only has to acknowledge the presence of god within and all about us to do this.

Tthe sad thing is, how many people believe they can only live with god or gain paradise/heaven after they die. That is untru.e One can and should reunite with god in this life, receive his blessings and power here and now, and live in paradise/heaven here and now, as a part of god. Then, whatever comes after death may be a pleasant bonus.

I am not sure about the koran's teachings on this concept, but jesus makes it clear. The kingdom of god already exists within everyone of us. It is only ourselves who prevent ourselves accessing it right now, and in this life.

I have feeling that the koran does talk about the need to live with god in the here and now, and live a life which reflects a unity with god in the here and now.We live by his will, and the way we live our lives should reflect our unity with that will. Some call this submission but to me it is a form of symbiosis which is meant to be natural for human beings One does not "submit" to ones conscience. Nor does one need to submit to an element of oneself (and that is what god is (or at least can be)

Some times jesus speaks as a man, sometimes as the spirit of god within that man, and sometimes he speaks from his authority as a part of god over many millenia. The only tricky part is using context and logic to work out which "voice" he is using at any time.

May 3, 2012

There is no trinity in Islam , Judaism ? I don't think . Make it compact Deborah , her mighty son Moses and Jehovah. FATHER MOTHER SON - holy trinity. (Allah's) daughter . . . , her son Mohamed,and Allah (moon god ) that makes sense ?

May 3, 2012

welcome raven nice to see you here as well

and am not really have issues in understanding am actually following the bibles own words

I think in this case, just following the Bible’s own words is not adequate for you to understand. You’re doing what the original Bishops did at Nicaea. They cherry-picked what they wanted to understand. We’re dealing with a very abstract and Gnostic concept. As you’ve seen with the division between Arianism and Trinitarianism. This is not straight forward as other things in the Bible or even the Quran. When it comes to the nature of Christ…it is not that easy.

beside i don't think i've yet attacked the faith

unless if you consider the words of the bible offensive do you ?

because every thing i said on the topic i backed up by lines from the bible to prove my point

so as far as i know .. am debating and i keep it respectful too

now that's outta of the way let me start with your post

Some of your quotes really don’t back up your points. The words of the Bible are not offensive. It’s that attitude (at this time only) that I wonder if you are trying to attack the faith?? That you have an ulterior motive or point?? But for now, I’ll just consider that you are just like the rest of us, seeking truth.

point 1 : you are again like some members refer to god as One god not 3 some people may disagree

but i'll base my argument on your thought that is god is one entity

one part called the son , another called father , and another called the holy spirit so far so good

in your words if i get you right ..

God : is the part that lives far away from us in his own realm

Son : is the example for us to follow .. which is too part of that one god

That is the gist. It’s vague. I’m curious as to what this means to you?

before i go on here i'll post questions as they pop out of my head .. are you saying that the title SON

is not meant to be that jesus is god's pshyical son ? but it's like more of figurative ?

i'll wait for your asnwer on that before i ask my further questions now moving further on

Like I was trying to express, “SON” is the term we use. But it lacks the exact meaning. In our realm of existence, what is the physical SON of GOD? It’s a little bit of both physical and figurative. Jesus was born of woman but he existed before that. So when did he become the SON? Jesus is the SON because of the role he plays. Like the other poster said, it’s GOD with the Jesus hat on.

with your example you go on with making sure that jesus is the incarnation of god he is seprate

and yet the same .. here i'll disagree using the bible :

<< 1 Corinthians 15:28 >>

Then, when all things are under his authority, the Son will put himself under God's authority, so that God, who gave his Son authority over all things, will be utterly supreme over everything everywhere.

---------------

jesus admits that he's under god authority .. therefore lesser than god and admits that his authority was given to him by god also .. so that doesn't make him the same it makes him lesser than god now let's move on

That’s why no one comes to the father but through Jesus. There is a hierarchy. It’s not necessarily superior and subordinate as it is just roles and context. GOD created the Heavens and the Earth, not Jesus. Jesus died on the Cross, not GOD. But they spoke between themselves, “let us make man in our image”. And in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. The Word being Jesus. Both these indicate equality.

now about mathematics example it's far by long shot a good example for the matter sorry

i like to keep it simple and attach every thing i make point on ..

It is pure simplicity. I guess Flatland is just as mystical as the Bible??

from the bible it self

Using one verse to support another may not work well if you’re not sure of the meaning of the supporting verse. Christians do that all the time. But if you can draw an example from something else to build common ground and keep it simple, you have a better chance to get your idea across.

As I mentioned earlier, you seem to be cherry-picking verses. We’ve seen the verses that show that Jesus is GOD and we’ve seen the verses where Jesus submits to GOD. You can’t separate them. Abrogation (Naskh) does not exist in the Bible the way it does in the Quran. In the Quran, if there are conflicting Suras/Ayahs, the Medinan ones supersede. This is part of the Muslim mindset but that’s not the case here.

but in bible it says ..

<< Acts 7:48 >>

"However, the Most High does not live in houses made by men. As the prophet says

---------------

this is the answer about soloman temple but the point is .. if god does not live in houses made by men

then how come jesus which is god as you say .. really did that and lived in houses made by men

isn't that declines the words of bible .. moving on

And this is the reason of why Jesus came; to experience what it was to be human. All the human emotions from love to hate. From being married, to having a family, to working, to living in a house. From being born to dying. How could some entity understand us and not do this? This is GOD’s expression of love. How could this entity take our sins upon himself if he was not human? This is what makes Redemption and Salvation by blood work.

ohhh the game example :Dmy favorite

but very very very interestingly .. are you suggesting that those who wrote the bible missed something ?

or failed to memorize certain lines ? i really need explaintion for the last part of your post i find it

interesting at high level

I’m suggesting that any divinely inspired writer of any scripture, be it books in the Bible or the Quran, missed something. It is human nature to put things in our own terms. It could be an entire work or just a word or two. And if you don’t understand what is being told to you – even more so. That was my point about Paul in the other thread. Because He was a xenophobe, his writings are very anti homosexual. Now did that change the validity of the rest of his writings? His prejudice turned into Jesus’ prejudice whether or not that was the case.

ohh and about muslims and mohammad being uneducated man .. he was indeed uneducated

but he took groups of people which happen to be arabs who were worshiping filth and stone

spending their time raiding on their rival arab tribes and stealing their money and women

he took those low glass people .. he made an empire of them which reached a peak at certain point of time

when science was taught under muslims sciences and everything flourished

so .. i think that's pretty astounding accomplishment for an uneducated man

Yes it is astounding and yet, he still could not comprehend the Trinity. How could he? He came from a polytheistic society. He could only use what he already knew to understand the Trinity. The Trinity is not polytheism, it is pluralism.

therefore i really thank you for your concern on my intellegant and my prophet intellegent

now since that out of the way .. the topic is about the trinity and the oness of god

if you want to discuss mohammad intellgent with me i'd be more than happy to answer ..

in a topic of your choosing that would be suitable

but meanwhile i'll stick to this topic

Yes, the topic is about the Trinity but from your replies, I know you just don’t quite understand it and I was showing that it is your Muslim background that prevents you from understanding. You need to change your frame of reference to understand this.

May 3, 2012

You need to change your frame of reference to understand this.

Given as how the US government considers a corporation a person, I thought of a corporation as a frame of reference.

You RavenHawk have caused these strange thoughts, lol.

God Inc.

Chairmen of the Board - Ancient of Days

President - Jesus Christ

Board Members - Angelic hosts of heaven.

Share holder lists include mega-churches to smaller individual personal believers.

Corporate ideology - Holy Spirit

Mission statement - World peace, justice, mercy, and increased quality of life.

May 3, 2012

ok you started off making sense based on the bible but again it's come back to the same thing

with all the evidence i gave you " from the bible " and you agree jesus is not the father

still you say in speak of nature the father and son are the same ? how can that make sense ?

i have given you lines proves from the bible by jesus own word admitting the superiority to god

as for described as being servant of god .. and servants are not match to the master

yet you tell me he's the same as god and they're one .. by doing this you're ignoring the bible's own words

ok now i got new term to research " godhead " but before i set off to that

i highly disagree with you here .. you saying jesus as divine as the other and eternal as the other

by the bible's jesus saying the father is greater than him .. that blows away they both divine in same level

and according to the bible jesus is UNABLE to act on his own god is able to that too prove you wrong

.. the line that backs it up back in the posts it's not my own words it's the bible's

so again by the bible's words i tell you jesus seperate him self from god by miles

I shortened your post because I don't at this time intend to answer it.

I have a more pressing question that needs answering...

Please tell this forum, how you see God?

Please define who and what God is in your opinion, without quotes or passages from any book.

I want to know about his character, his nature and whether he is a part of this universe or removed from it, whether he has a body, or not, whether the angels and djinn can see him or not... Give me your view only, not anybody elses.

PS - I would request and so would many other members who are participating on this thread, that you not cut you sentences in half by hitting the return button on you keyboard, the writing automatically wraps the text to fit the windo. When you cut the sentence, it makes it very difficult for us to follow what you are saying. thanxs :tu:

Edited May 3, 2012 by Jor-el

May 4, 2012

I think in this case, just following the Bible’s own words is not adequate for you to understand. You’re doing what the original Bishops did at Nicaea. They cherry-picked what they wanted to understand. We’re dealing with a very abstract and Gnostic concept. As you’ve seen with the division between Arianism and Trinitarianism. This is not straight forward as other things in the Bible or even the Quran. When it comes to the nature of Christ…it is not that easy.

Some of your quotes really don’t back up your points. The words of the Bible are not offensive. It’s that attitude (at this time only) that I wonder if you are trying to attack the faith?? That you have an ulterior motive or point?? But for now, I’ll just consider that you are just like the rest of us, seeking truth.

That is the gist. It’s vague. I’m curious as to what this means to you?

Like I was trying to express, “SON” is the term we use. But it lacks the exact meaning. In our realm of existence, what is the physical SON of GOD? It’s a little bit of both physical and figurative. Jesus was born of woman but he existed before that. So when did he become the SON? Jesus is the SON because of the role he plays. Like the other poster said, it’s GOD with the Jesus hat on.

That’s why no one comes to the father but through Jesus. There is a hierarchy. It’s not necessarily superior and subordinate as it is just roles and context. GOD created the Heavens and the Earth, not Jesus. Jesus died on the Cross, not GOD. But they spoke between themselves, “let us make man in our image”. And in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was GOD. The Word being Jesus. Both these indicate equality.

It is pure simplicity. I guess Flatland is just as mystical as the Bible??

Using one verse to support another may not work well if you’re not sure of the meaning of the supporting verse. Christians do that all the time. But if you can draw an example from something else to build common ground and keep it simple, you have a better chance to get your idea across.

As I mentioned earlier, you seem to be cherry-picking verses. We’ve seen the verses that show that Jesus is GOD and we’ve seen the verses where Jesus submits to GOD. You can’t separate them. Abrogation (Naskh) does not exist in the Bible the way it does in the Quran. In the Quran, if there are conflicting Suras/Ayahs, the Medinan ones supersede. This is part of the Muslim mindset but that’s not the case here.

And this is the reason of why Jesus came; to experience what it was to be human. All the human emotions from love to hate. From being married, to having a family, to working, to living in a house. From being born to dying. How could some entity understand us and not do this? This is GOD’s expression of love. How could this entity take our sins upon himself if he was not human? This is what makes Redemption and Salvation by blood work.

I’m suggesting that any divinely inspired writer of any scripture, be it books in the Bible or the Quran, missed something. It is human nature to put things in our own terms. It could be an entire work or just a word or two. And if you don’t understand what is being told to you – even more so. That was my point about Paul in the other thread. Because He was a xenophobe, his writings are very anti homosexual. Now did that change the validity of the rest of his writings? His prejudice turned into Jesus’ prejudice whether or not that was the case.

Yes it is astounding and yet, he still could not comprehend the Trinity. How could he? He came from a polytheistic society. He could only use what he already knew to understand the Trinity. The Trinity is not polytheism, it is pluralism.

Yes, the topic is about the Trinity but from your replies, I know you just don’t quite understand it and I was showing that it is your Muslim background that prevents you from understanding. You need to change your frame of reference to understand this.

well what you mean not for me ?

i have not yet posted anything or viewed anything based on my own faith

am only reviewing the bible's words .. nothing more nothing less

you can consider me an agnositc if that's more suitable to you while we in this debate

because am not using in my debate anything from other than christianty and the bible

if i was christians i will view things different ? you mean " my own view " will be different

but the bible is always the same so what will change is not the bible's words

what will change will be my own view of it .. so again am not mistaken here

and now you accuse me of attacking the faith because you can't argue with me ?

listen these quotes are not made by me .. they were in the bible i just happen to post them here

if you find it hard to debate with me no one is forcing you .. beside no one accused me of being offensive

other than you of course ..

i show great respect during my debate and it's free of insults

all of my posts shows qoutes from the bible .. if you consider THAT offenseive ..

that's your problem not mine .. sorry about that

and of course i got motive it's a debate i got point it's eiather proved wrong or right

you are familiar with the debate concept aren't you ?

listen you spending too much talking about me instead of addressing the point at hands

i think you should forget about me .. and post about the topic instead

now to address the part of your post that actually talk about the topic :

you saying jesus is god existed before and the son is just role he played

i can easily argue with that based on the bible's words

jesus is not a god and does not hold the attributes of god .. in the bible

<< Luke 22:43 >>

An angel from heaven appeared to him and strengthened him.

---------------

so does this exactly mean that an angel is stronger than jesus " which the trinity suggest he's a god " ?!

could an angel " created " by god is stronger than him .. and why would god need to see angel

to get stronger ? this doesn't seem like god at all

now .. carrying on

you again say that God or the father is not superior to jesus

and again i can argue with that using the bible as prove that jesus admits being servant of god

this the line i posted before

<< Acts 3:13 >>

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus. You handed him over to be killed, and you disowned him before Pilate, though he had decided to let him go.

--------------

so how come if jesus god .. he was also glorified by god and he's a servant of god ?

don't you think it's far fetch ? but looks to me that this part of bible suggest that jesus

is mere servant for god .. and another line suggest that a servant never good as master

<< John 13:16 >>

I tell you the truth, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

------------

i already posted this but you didn't bother to read so i have to post them again

so there is not real equality between them " bible says "

yet further in your post you keep talking about me and not knowing the meaning of what i post

i again suggest you should forget about me .. and focus on what am posting

you seem to do this alot .. listen if you are unable to debate me " as human being with no religion "

it's alright you don't need to keep saying i have muslim mind set

when i started this debate i dumped all of my beliefs aside and started discussion

based on the bible " which is a christian faith " so technecially .. am christian within this debate

given that through this debate i believe the bible as much as you do

so eiather address the point .. or stop talking about me please the topic is not about me

again i'll carry on to the rest of the post that address the true point

you say jesus came to experince what it was to be human

but again the bible says god cannot be contained on earth .. or such curroption as human body

cannot contain god .. want the passages ?

<< 1 Kings 8:27 >>

"But will God really dwell on earth? The heavens, even the highest heaven, cannot contain you. How much less this temple I have built!

<< 1 Corinthians 15:50 >>

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

--------------------

you see am using the bible to prove you wrong .. if you have read my replies to other people

you'd save us both time coz i already posted some of those lines

the way in debate is to disprove me of my proves .. as long i have proves that makes you wrong

i have debate .. instead of wasting time talking about me try to remove my proves

as to why mohammad why could not comprehend the trinity .. why would he ? if the bible it self

did not prove that concept of trinity of god " by proof "

i do hope in your next point you'll address the point instead of addressing my person

coz i didn't write the bible am only using it as prove in my debate

neither my background as muslim written the bible ..

May 4, 2012

No the bible doesnt disprove this theological view of god (or the way i experience god) It actually reinforces it. Remember that jesus is speaking as a man to other men. Sometimes he speaks as the earthly man. Sometimes as the spirit, and , sometimes as himself before and after his short years on earth.

Let us suppose that my consciousness was connected to gods and spanned millenia. I could talk to people about our shared physical time on earth (my 60 mortal years, or in jesus case about 30 years) with one "voice."

But when i spoke of my experiences with god inside those 60 years, i would be using a different "voice" and different terminology/language.. It would include the knowledge and empowerments god shared with me over those times, and the experience of the power of the holy spirit during my earthly life.

But, as such an eternal consciousness; if I spoke of my knowledge and memories of god from 2000, 10000, or 50000 years ago, I would be speaking again with a different "voice."

While jesus was on earth he was the son of god just as we are all, in biblical theology, sons of god. In jesus case he was, biblically, LITERALLY the physical son of god.

But jesus existed before and after his time on earth. (in christian understanding) He was/is not the son of god before he comes to earth nor is he AFTER he goes back to "heaven". There, he is one part of the totality of god .

This is a critical difference in belief between christianity and islam. However it is not necessarily a stumbing block. Humans can come to god and connect to him in many ways and via many religious forms. The relationship betwen man and god is a natural and already existing one. Any one can access it One only has to acknowledge the presence of god within and all about us to do this.

Tthe sad thing is, how many people believe they can only live with god or gain paradise/heaven after they die. That is untru.e One can and should reunite with god in this life, receive his blessings and power here and now, and live in paradise/heaven here and now, as a part of god. Then, whatever comes after death may be a pleasant bonus.

I am not sure about the koran's teachings on this concept, but jesus makes it clear. The kingdom of god already exists within everyone of us. It is only ourselves who prevent ourselves accessing it right now, and in this life.

I have feeling that the koran does talk about the need to live with god in the here and now, and live a life which reflects a unity with god in the here and now.We live by his will, and the way we live our lives should reflect our unity with that will. Some call this submission but to me it is a form of symbiosis which is meant to be natural for human beings One does not "submit" to ones conscience. Nor does one need to submit to an element of oneself (and that is what god is (or at least can be)

Some times jesus speaks as a man, sometimes as the spirit of god within that man, and sometimes he speaks from his authority as a part of god over many millenia. The only tricky part is using context and logic to work out which "voice" he is using at any time.

i like your analogy but you are forgetting something important

all of these voices .. coming from you as the source no voice coming out on it's own

you let them out " when you feel like it " they don't act on their own or seperatly

none of these voices superior to you as the source .. you create them when you wish to speak

they're not equal with you .. they don't speak by them self when you do not want them to

you are their superior as the source

most importantly they don't serprate them self to you " like jesus did "

they don't say things that like .. they are your servants they are your voices after all

without them you'd lose the ability to speak .. therefore .. without jesus god would lose the ability

to roam on earth ? " speak in case jesus was part of god "

not to mention the bible refusing the fact that god would dwell on earth or beheld in human body

.. the lines within the topic if you look them up

i know am muslim but i haven't used my own belief in this debate

am using the christian belief based on the bible .. and i would never use my belief

to discuss other beliefs

now to the kingdom of gods in the bible's words

<< 1 Corinthians 15:50 >>

Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

----------------

that's clear isn't it ? and it's within the bible

well quran is not the discussion here but i'll gladly answer your question

in islamic view God is everywhere watching everything .. therefore we are always near to god

but we are not one with god .. we are human his subjects .. and he is god

.. i don't dwell on it much here since the subject is not about god of islam or quran

but if you have any questions or discussions feel free to start topic or PM

i don't mind at all

and thanks for the time you spare to discuss this

Edited May 4, 2012 by Knight Of Shadows

May 4, 2012

Knight

No. Sola Scriptura is peculiar to one branch of Christianity which appeared in force about 500 years ago. The majority of Nicene Christians, who belong to older churches (Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Oriental Orthodox and Eastern Rite Catholcs), believe that the Deposit of Faith includes not only the canonical scriptures, but also Tradition (mostly the religious scholarship and liturgy of early Christians) and Reason.

Ironically for an adverse discussion of the Trinity, even many among the sola scriptura minority are reluctant to view the Bible as a mere fetish. It is not the text, then, but rather the Holy Spirit guiding the reader who imparts knowledge. The majority also sees a role for the Holy Spirit in interpreting the Deposit of Faith, but often have less individualistic theories than the Protestants, and, of course, for them, the Holy Spirit's remit isn't restricted just to the Bible.

So, you are arguing one branch of Protestantism against the rest of Nicene Christianity.Or you would be, if taking some verses of John and omitting the rest were representative of Protestant thought or their typical approach to Biblical study.

Some special attention is also needed for your remark "...if god and jesus in the bible never put it there." Jesus didn't write any of the New Testament, and it is a key feature of the book that it was written by men. If not, then the Christian witness isn't historical. The Nicene Creed speaks for itself about the centrality of historical witness being a pillar of Christianity, as does the earlier Apostles' Creed, still professed by most of the Nicenes (and some non-Nicenes, too).

There is a theory of "inspration," which gives God a role in Biblical composition and, as already explained, a complementary theoory of a divine role in Bible reading. Nevertheless the phrase "Word of God" simply doesn't mean for Christians what the corresponding phrase means for Muslims when applied to the Koran.

but am not only taking some of John's words .. you can see clearly i uses various of writers

not just john .. that's for one

and even if am taking just john .. is john's wrong ?

i know the bible wasn't written by jesus it was written ages after christ

but within this debate consider me christian .. discussion the bible with you

can you refuse lines from the bible because they didn't fit your mindset ?

can any christian do ?

the only reason i used the bible as my guide to this debate

because no one can refuse the words of the bible

unless if you have other opinion ?

say you think the bible is not right on some passages ?

you see i know am not christian but in this debate i embrace the bible as true

and i take every line of it as fact for my debate

but now it looks like you're not doing the same

but before that i'll wait for you to answer my question

weather you think the bible is true or not .. or wheather you refuse lines

that doesn't fit your opinion or not

so i can carry on with my point further on i don't want assume things on your behalf

coz i don't like it when other people assume things on my behalf as well

wish you well

ohh and for the thing you suggested i should read .. if it's not in the bible .. it's not in my debate

am sorry but i don't debate which i have no knowledge of .. that'll make me arrogant

May 4, 2012

I shortened your post because I don't at this time intend to answer it.

I have a more pressing question that needs answering...

Please tell this forum, how you see God?

Please define who and what God is in your opinion, without quotes or passages from any book.

I want to know about his character, his nature and whether he is a part of this universe or removed from it, whether he has a body, or not, whether the angels and djinn can see him or not... Give me your view only, not anybody elses.

PS - I would request and so would many other members who are participating on this thread, that you not cut you sentences in half by hitting the return button on you keyboard, the writing automatically wraps the text to fit the windo. When you cut the sentence, it makes it very difficult for us to follow what you are saying. thanxs

hey there and it's ok no pressing answer whenever you have the time

and i'll answer your question the way you want it

i view god as a superior creator which created every being

he's unmatched by anyone or any being he created

he has no form that i know of and most importantly would not take any form

his form no one have seen or can see in this life time ..

he is not part of this universe he created this universe and other universes " should they exist "

the reason i said he's not part of this universe coz the universe is creation of his

he is every where and can do anything but he's not part of anything nor part of anyone

so yes you get it right i think god is not part of us .. i have feeling you'll argue here

with this point which i already got the passage to prove you wrong just in case

coz simply in my opinion god is too great to be " part " of something

his glory cannot be withstood in anything human or not .. alive or dead

he isn't a part of anything or anyone he is the creator of all things

and doesn't share his power with anyone neither human or angel

he is eternal he never die nor he can be killed sick or damaged

always was there and always be

but he is everywhere regardless and see and know and hear everything and see everything

djinns created by him shares different characters than humans but they do not see him or match him or hear him

angels also created by him don't match him as well

as they are merely servants to him some of them may see him and hear him

in my opinion god can do anything without any servants but the reason he created them

is to show us that every thing should be done on levels and steps

but i hope this won't turn into my personal opinion of god debate

coz it's not about how i view god it's strictly about how the bible view god

and about how can god be 3 in trinity .. while the bible prove he's only one

which is not jesus according to the bible and jesus's words within the bible

tis not about how i view god coz i have never brought my personal view into the debate

but i answered your question the way you wanted

didn't get what you wanted with the PS though

May 4, 2012

There is no trinity in Islam , Judaism ? I don't think . Make it compact Deborah , her mighty son Moses and Jehovah. FATHER MOTHER SON - holy trinity. (Allah's) daughter . . . , her son Mohamed,and Allah (moon god ) that makes sense ?

got no idea what you're talking about

the holy trinity

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