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Look Mama, no diamond saw

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In view of the club of the pre-historic diamond-saw coming around trying to tell us that certain things are impossible I decided to start this thread with images, instructions and videos of how things can be done by using tools and methods available since the earliest metal age. In this post we will have splitting granite with a relatively small mallet and a dozen or so metal wedges:

All are invited to post similar evidence of "how it can't be done" here...

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Abramelin

Was he able to get to the precision of the the blocks in the next video?

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Old Man Waffles

lol

Edited by Insightful Waffles

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Was he able to get to the precision of the the blocks in the next video?

Ho hum:

http://annali.unife.it/museologia/hengsophady.pdf

Angkor+05+-+Stone+grinding+%28Nat+Geo%29.jpg

No diamond saw either...

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Abramelin

Ho hum:

http://annali.unife....hengsophady.pdf

Angkor+05+-+Stone+grinding+%28Nat+Geo%29.jpg

No diamond saw either...

Although I was far from suggesting 'aliens' did it, or that diamond cutters had been used, I'd like to see someone copy those Puma Punku stones using the tools like we see in the video and the pdf you posted.

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Although I was far from suggesting 'aliens' did it, or that diamond cutters had been used, I'd like to see someone copy those Puma Punku stones using the tools like we see in the video and the pdf you posted.

Abe, even the Illinois were capable of grooving stone, though here it was unintentional:

grindingstoneaxehandsmall.jpg

They used the stone with the grove to form stone axes. Just one stone rubbing against the other with some sand and water in between. And that is from the late stone age.

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Abramelin

Abe, even the Illinois were capable of grooving stone, though here it was unintentional:

grindingstoneaxehandsmall.jpg

They used the stone with the grove to form stone axes. Just one stone rubbing against the other with some sand and water in between. And that is from the late stone age.

Yes, and not even remotely accurate as those Puma Punku stones.

It's the high accuracy and precison that is remarkable.

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cenobite

Excellent post mate, we hear so much of the they couldn't have done that with the tools they had then crap, its nice to see something that vindicates my belief that good ole humanity is much more clever and resourceful than some would have us believe

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Yes, and not even remotely accurate as those Puma Punku stones.

It's the high accuracy and precison that is remarkable.

Just a question of time and dedication. And lots of discarded rocks....

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Oniomancer

Abe, even the Illinois were capable of grooving stone, though here it was unintentional:

grindingstoneaxehandsmall.jpg

They used the stone with the grove to form stone axes. Just one stone rubbing against the other with some sand and water in between. And that is from the late stone age.

That's for grinding down the bit actually, though they could've done the whole thing that way theoretically. The main shaping was by pecking and grinding, and there are people who've replicated the technique.

http://flintknapper.com/How%20to%20make%20a%20stone%20axe.htm

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That's for grinding down the bit actually, though they could've done the whole thing that way theoretically. The main shaping was by pecking and grinding, and there are people who've replicated the technique.

http://flintknapper....a stone axe.htm

I like that example because it shows clearly that you can use a softer rock/metal to form a harder one, most won't notice but up there they are using sandstone (Mohs ~0) to form granite (Mohs 2-7).

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Abramelin

Just a question of time and dedication. And lots of discarded rocks....

Still, I'd like to see a stone worker recreate one of those Puma Punku stones using the tools we have been shown.

Proof is in the pudding, as they say.

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Still, I'd like to see a stone worker recreate one of those Puma Punku stones using the tools we have been shown.

Proof is in the pudding, as they say.

As soon as I can lay my hands on a diorite block I'll let you know.... But remember, glass has a hardness of 5.5 and can be easily cracked by a rubber ball with a hardness of near zero. Hardness is no measure of maleability of any material, brittleness is. And I am afraid that diorite has bad cards there.

Edited by questionmark

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Oniomancer

QM, you must've read my mind. I recently found some links on a similar theme I was going to post to the other thread when I had the time.

Regarding the earlier point about precision being a function of craftsmanship vs. time:

Notice even though he's using a steel chisel and occasionally resorts to a power chisel, both remove material in only slightly greater amounts at a time than hitting them with a rock would do.

Edited by Oniomancer
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Oniomancer

As for splitting stone:

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I like the videos above because they show what most armchair archeologist either don't know or willfully ignore: You don't cut stone, you take advantage of its brittleness to form it.

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Abramelin

I like the videos above because they show what most armchair archeologist either don't know or willfully ignore: You don't cut stone, you take advantage of its brittleness to form it.

Yes, and you use steel chissels and electrical equipment.

And even then it doesn't look as precise as the Puma Punku stones.

Btw, does anyone know what tools have been found on the Puma Punku site?

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Yes, and you use steel chissels and electrical equipment.

And even then it doesn't look as precise as the Puma Punku stones.

Btw, does anyone know what tools have been found on the Puma Punku site?

Or you hit one rock on top of the other as shown in the stone axe making tutorial above. And no, no tools have been found that could be equated to having been used to build anything in Tihuanacu.

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Abramelin

Yes, and you use steel chissels and electrical equipment.

And even then it doesn't look as precise as the Puma Punku stones.

Btw, does anyone know what tools have been found on the Puma Punku site?

As editing these days gives me a headache, I will post this in a new post:

Notable features at Pumapunku are I-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These I-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. I-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the I-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots.[8][10] The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600–900.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

Would tools - chissels - made from this alloy do the trick?

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Abramelin

Or you hit one rock on top of the other as shown in the stone axe making tutorial above. And no, no tools have been found that could be equated to having been used to build anything in Tihuanacu.

You will know that when they are able to recreate a number of exact matches of the Puma Punku stones using anything but modern tools, the discussion about whether ancient people could create such blocks "en masse" will settle for once and for all.

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As editing these days gives me a headache, I will post this in a new post:

Notable features at Pumapunku are I-shaped architectural cramps, which are composed of a unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy. These I-shaped cramps were also used on a section of canal found at the base of the Akapana pyramid at Tiwanaku. These cramps were used to hold the blocks comprising the walls and bottom of stone-lined canals that drain sunken courts. I-cramps of unknown composition were used to hold together the massive slabs that formed Pumapunku's four large platforms. In the south canal of the Pumapunku, the I-shaped cramps were cast in place. In sharp contrast, the cramps used at the Akapana canal were fashioned by the cold hammering of copper-arsenic-nickel bronze ingots.[8][10] The unique copper-arsenic-nickel bronze alloy is also found in metal artifacts within the region between Tiwanaku and San Pedro de Atacama during the late Middle Horizon around 600–900.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku

Would tools - chissels - made from this alloy do the trick?

From the hardness yes, it would be somewhere around 5 (give or take 1 depending on the exact composition), that would be almost as hard as a modern pocket knife made out of knife steel, but at the same time much more maleable, that is the tool would have been more flexible and therefore less likely to break.

What gets ignored mostly, when we talk about bronze, is that it was used until after the Middle Ages for stone working. Iron was way to brittle at the time to make a satisfactory tool. It was not until steel became available cheaply that it was used by masons.

Edited by questionmark

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DKO

He makes it look easy.

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Mr Supertypo

You will know that when they are able to recreate a number of exact matches of the Puma Punku stones using anything but modern tools, the discussion about whether ancient people could create such blocks "en masse" will settle for once and for all.

If you can make one, you can make billions (if the material is avaiable).

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Abramelin

If you can make one, you can make billions (if the material is avaiable).

If it takes a month to make one using non-modern tools, I don't think so.

But the Wiki page about Puma Punka mentions 'mass production' of these Lego-like stones, so apparently they were able to make these stones rather fast.

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If it takes a month to make one using non-modern tools, I don't think so.

But the Wiki page about Puma Punka mentions 'mass production' of these Lego-like stones, so apparently they were able to make these stones rather fast.

Which is a speculation without verification by Jean-Pierre Protzen. From the evidence we have we can speculate on construction times from anywhere of 2 days to 300 years. And depending on how much Nibbler involvement you suppose the shorter the time.

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