Look Mama, no diamond saw

[Kahn]

Thanks kmt_sesh, but I given up as rational debate requires at least two parties can comprehend and analyze the evidence presented.

[Harte]

The claim that "all those stone tools laying around" somehow amounts to proof is more akin to a faith-based system of beliefs than to actual science.

On December 15, 2012, at 2:30 pm, there was a window in my kitchen with no blind. At 3:00 pm on that same day, there was a blind on the window.

On the nearby table at that time was a drill with a 5/8 in. drill bit still attached (and some drywall debris in the flutes) and a phillips head screwdriver.

Gee, I guess it's "faith-based" for me to assert that the hardware for holding a window blind was attached to my window frame using phillips-head screws in predrilled holes.

Harte

[lilthor]

On December 15, 2012, at 2:30 pm, there was a window in my kitchen with no blind. At 3:00 pm on that same day, there was a blind on the window.

On the nearby table at that time was a drill with a 5/8 in. drill bit still attached (and some drywall debris in the flutes) and a phillips head screwdriver.

Gee, I guess it's "faith-based" for me to assert that the hardware for holding a window blind was attached to my window frame using phillips-head screws in predrilled holes.

Harte

At last, a most relevant comment...thank you.

It is reasonable to conjecture that said window blind hardware was attached as you've described. It also seems reasonable to conjecture that stone pounders found nearby ancient stonework were used in the production thereof.

However, if your 'theory' about the window blind hardware were to come under tough scrutiny, science would demand (politely) that you replicate the hardware attachment using those tools you've indicated...a feat I've no doubt you could accomplish swiftly and repeatedly. I'm sure also that you would not deign to refuse such a confirming effort as doing so would relegate your 'theory' to faith-based status.

Now let's throw open those blinds and let the sunshine pour in!

Edited October 17, 2013 by lilthor

[Harte]

At last, a most relevant comment...thank you.

It is reasonable to conjecture that said window blind hardware was attached as you've described. It also seems reasonable to conjecture that stone pounders found nearby ancient stonework were used in the production thereof.

However, if your 'theory' about the window blind hardware were to come under tough scrutiny, science would demand (politely) that you replicate the hardware attachment using those tools you've indicated...a feat I've no doubt you could accomplish swiftly and repeatedly. I'm sure also that you would not deign to refuse such a confirming effort as doing so would relegate your 'theory' to faith-based status.

Now let's throw open those blinds and let the sunshine pour in!

So, it's not "faith-based" after all?

Dang. I had hoped that Jesus did it. He was a carpenter, you know.

At any rate, even if I demonstrated it, you could say that it doesn't "prove" anything, just like you say to the demonstrations linked to in this thread.

Harte

[lilthor]

So, it's not "faith-based" after all?

Dang. I had hoped that Jesus did it. He was a carpenter, you know.

At any rate, even if I demonstrated it, you could say that it doesn't "prove" anything, just like you say to the demonstrations linked to in this thread.

Harte

Actually, I said the video does prove something...2 things, in fact. And I can prove it...the evidence is in post #767 above.

[stereologist]

Actually, I said the video does prove something...2 things, in fact. And I can prove it...the evidence is in post #767 above.

Please show us that there is anything to your claims in post #767.

[lilthor]

Please show us that there is anything to your claims in post #767.

Arrgh...

*gif removed due to its moderate sarcasm and quip-ish content*

Edited October 17, 2013 by lilthor

[stereologist]

Let me ask you again. Do you have any evidence to support these rather flippant claims of yours?

Do you have any evidence or are you just going to repeat the no, no, no you've been saying all along?

We've all seen that pathetic video. It proves 2 things: that their theory and method are WRONG, and, that they are idiots to conclude from their results that their theory is correct.

Nobody could create the rock forms we see using those methods alone.

[lilthor]

Let me ask you again. Do you have any evidence to support these rather flippant claims of yours?

Do you have any evidence or are you just going to repeat the no, no, no you've been saying all along?

You know, I had thought earlier that you were being obtuse in your interpretations of my posts, but I do see that you are all over these message boards arguing with different members on quite a range of topics, so perhaps you are simply spread a bit thin.

Here's a suggestion: how about we engage in a process of discovery together? Let's seperately calculate the number of man-hours required to build the wall at Tarahuasi (only what is visible in the photo) using the methods demonstrated in the Nova video. All of the information needed for a rough-but-reasonable calculation should be available within this thread including rate of progress, total surface area worked, and total number and average size of blocks. Then we will compare the results and discuss feasibility. Agreed?

[lilthor]

Hmmm...would it help if I sweeten the deal by allowing you to team up with *Snip*? The one who likes to complain about UMers outside of his 'tribe' committing the very same transgressions for which his 'tribe' is so well-known around here? Would that help? Let's roll up our sleeves...

Edited October 18, 2013 by kmt_sesh
Ridicule

[stereologist]

You know, I had thought earlier that you were being obtuse in your interpretations of my posts, but I do see that you are all over these message boards arguing with different members on quite a range of topics, so perhaps you are simply spread a bit thin.

Here's a suggestion: how about we engage in a process of discovery together? Let's seperately calculate the number of man-hours required to build the wall at Tarahuasi (only what is visible in the photo) using the methods demonstrated in the Nova video. All of the information needed for a rough-but-reasonable calculation should be available within this thread including rate of progress, total surface area worked, and total number and average size of blocks. Then we will compare the results and discuss feasibility. Agreed?

I'm waiting for you to post something of value. So far 3 posts without substance.

Edited October 18, 2013 by stereologist

[lilthor]

I'm waiting for you to post something of value. So far 3 posts without substance.

So you've chosen to run rather than participate. Color me unsurprised.

[kmt_sesh]

Lilthor, please see my PM to you.

kmt_sesh

[Harte]

Kmt_sesh, PLEASE let us see your PM to Lilthor. LOL

Harte

[questionmark]

Kmt_sesh, PLEASE let us see your PM to Lilthor. LOL

Harte

Now, now Harte!

[kmt_sesh]

Let's remain civil and carry on with the conversation.

kmt_sesh

Edited October 18, 2013 by kmt_sesh

[jmccr8]

Hi Stereologist,

Just a couple of points to ponder with your comments in posts #757 and #759.I agree that we can construct building much faster than they did in ancient times.However there can be no comparison between then and now for many reasons.

Modern construction is driven by markets

Current construction methods will never last as long as those ancient structures because we live in a disposable culture.

Rock is not affected by rot or termites

Environmental condition require area specific construction methods and the majority of the time the recommended methods are ignored due to cost,thereby reducing the durability of the structure and its life.

Many of these ancient constructs had been left to the elements unmaintained.for thousands of years and are still here.Try that with any modern structure,bury it in sand or in a jungle for 500yrs and uncover it, you will not have anything that you would recognize

Durable as concrete can be it is, it is still subject to time of year and conditions,yes we put additives in during different seasons and when being used for basements there are considerations for soil types.if proper protocol is ignored that basement can be cracked,leaking,or shifted before the house is completed.

Many of the ancient stone structures have in past been subjected to earthquakes,elements and pilfering and yet there they are still standing and in full view of everyone.

All current building products have manufacturers directions for proper use,unfortunately those requirements are not followed the majority of the time and reduce the efficiency of the product.The manufacturer is not responsible if the product is not used as directed. One example I give of many in this city is that of a condo project that is 7 yrs old and the exterior finish on the building was not properly installed and has just finished being redone at the cost to the condo owners.These units had been sold for 300k each when new during a boom time.Each condo owner had to pay 200k to refinish the exterior of the complex,most owners gave up their homes as the units were bought at and inflated cost originally and without the reconstructive work their units were not worth what they had paid originally.Now these units whose actual value is presently 225k with a mortage of 300k+ 200k for repairs,there isn't enough booze in this country to get the lenders drunk enough to sign any deals for this property.

I an adding a link about ancient concrete for reference in case you care to read through it.

.Nabataea: Concrete

jmccr8

[stereologist]

So you've chosen to run rather than participate. Color me unsurprised.

I'm waiting for you to post something of value. So far 4 posts without substance.

It's becoming painfully clear that you have nothing whatsoever to substantiate your claims in post #767.

There are many people that make fanciful claims that something can't be done by modern man. We can. We've been learning from those that came before us. What we sometimes lose is the exact method used in a construction. That hardly matters in many cases since we can construct with methods that are faster, stronger, easier to maintain, and more durable.

Instead of chipping rocks with rocks we now have a variety of methods available including motorized metal tools, synthesizing rock, and cements. In the latter rock is converted to a powder and then relithified in the shape that we desire.

[stereologist]

Hi Stereologist,

Just a couple of points to ponder with your comments in posts #757 and #759.I agree that we can construct building much faster than they did in ancient times.However there can be no comparison between then and now for many reasons.

Modern construction is driven by markets

Current construction methods will never last as long as those ancient structures because we live in a disposable culture.

Rock is not affected by rot or termites

Environmental condition require area specific construction methods and the majority of the time the recommended methods are ignored due to cost,thereby reducing the durability of the structure and its life.

Many of these ancient constructs had been left to the elements unmaintained.for thousands of years and are still here.Try that with any modern structure,bury it in sand or in a jungle for 500yrs and uncover it, you will not have anything that you would recognize

Durable as concrete can be it is, it is still subject to time of year and conditions,yes we put additives in during different seasons and when being used for basements there are considerations for soil types.if proper protocol is ignored that basement can be cracked,leaking,or shifted before the house is completed.

Many of the ancient stone structures have in past been subjected to earthquakes,elements and pilfering and yet there they are still standing and in full view of everyone.

All current building products have manufacturers directions for proper use,unfortunately those requirements are not followed the majority of the time and reduce the efficiency of the product.The manufacturer is not responsible if the product is not used as directed. One example I give of many in this city is that of a condo project that is 7 yrs old and the exterior finish on the building was not properly installed and has just finished being redone at the cost to the condo owners.These units had been sold for 300k each when new during a boom time.Each condo owner had to pay 200k to refinish the exterior of the complex,most owners gave up their homes as the units were bought at and inflated cost originally and without the reconstructive work their units were not worth what they had paid originally.Now these units whose actual value is presently 225k with a mortage of 300k+ 200k for repairs,there isn't enough booze in this country to get the lenders drunk enough to sign any deals for this property.

I an adding a link about ancient concrete for reference in case you care to read through it.

.Nabataea: Concrete

jmccr8

Current construction methods can last longer than ancient structures. We see the deterioration of ancient structure as they slump and crumble. Rocks do rot. It is called weathering. Limestone blocks begin to dissolve. Statues lose their features. Inscriptions disappear with the dissolved rock. Walls collapse as the rocks dissolve. Your claim that modern structures could not survive 500 years of burial is not true. Modern materials can last a very long time. The glass, tiles, poured walls can last as long as rock. Don't forget that the soil around you was once rock.

You claim that the ancient structures have survived quakes. Sort of. They are reduced to a few walls and a foundation. Today there is an effort to restore some of the old and shattered buildings in Guatemala. Modern earthquake proof construction methods are fixing buildings wiped out in 1773.

You point out that buildings that are not built well do not survive. Many ancient structures are gone. Only 1 of the 7 wonders of the ancient world still exists. The rest gone. Most ancient structures are nothing today but foundations.

[jmccr8]

Hi Stereologist,

From what I've read the Gizamids have endured earthquakes,as well as several sites in Mexico and S.America.I was not under the impression that there has been any stacking of blocks in modern times so that we are know able to discuss them.Yes,there are many ancient sites that are rubble,however most of the pictures linked in this thread appear to me do to qualify as rubble.

As far as the seven wonders of the world who is to say that they actually existed if they do not exist today,I suppose that the Anunaki could have taken them back to Niburu when the left.I think of them as some story that was told to someone who never saw them and some time later in history some ancestor of Sitchin or Danikin elaborated on.haha

What we do know is that which is still standing is exactly what we know to be true

Yes some fairly recent constructs in comparison are still in use today,I have relatives living in familial homes that were built by family ancestors 350-500+ yrs in Brittany.They were built with fieldstone. The key to any structure is first the way it was constructed as well as how it has been maintained.

You of course are correct in that stone does degrade, and yet we have some stone sculptures that are yet a wonder to behold.We have not uncovered all that is hidden in jungles and under the sands of time.

If you buried a modern structure as many of the ancient sites were,the pressure of the covering soil would break glass,drywall(gypsum board)would degrade fairly quickly and be infested with mould. steel studs would rust away,wood would rot.Yes you would find ceramic or porcilin tiles but it is unlikely that they would still be attached to any surface because we use water based adhesives which is in many products like plywood, mdf, and oriented strand broad.and the list goes on.

Back-pressure from ground movement will crack concrete once the re-bar is exposed it will rust away and sections will collapse.such conditions can be compounded by soil conditions with rainfall and freezing temperatures as seasons change.In drought conditions with a clay based soil the clay will shrink then if a period of say five years of fairly wet conditions the clay will expand and increase the pressure on the concrete further weakening the bond to the re-bar. whith warm and cold spell during the winter and spring the moisture that seeps into the cracks in the concrete causing more cracking and separation. Up until 50yrs ago were I grew up the lime mixture in the concrete was was to high for the conditions, When you would walk into the sub levels of most structures you could see the concrete powdering and could quit readily dig into the concrete with your fingers.

I work in the construction industry and spend a good portion of my work on repairing brand new constructs as well as what we would refer to as heritage properties for being a relatively new country.I have certification with ICF(insulated concrete forms)which are a polystyrene composition that I find to produce a quality product as it is a wet cure as opposed to a dry cure. With the dry cure method the concrete dries from the outside in, under ideal conditions the contractor wets the outside of the walls daily so that it doesn't crack while the inside is drying.Of course most developers don't want to do this because of cost,as well the foundation shouldn't be loaded with weight until the cure is sufficient,this again is something that takes time and time is money.

With ICF it is a wet cure and dries more evenly because the concrete is not exposed to the air and will be a harder concrete because of this optimal cure time is 30 days before adding weight to the structure also once finished and backfilled the polystyrene form absorbs a good portion of pressure form soil movement.

Can we build faster,better,and enduring structures, of course we can, can we build Megalithic structures like the GP,of course we can.But the question is would we do it using the same tools as the ancients did of course not.We don't know what they did,we assume that we understand what,how why,but in reality we don't know how they did it.If They may of had some primitive tech that we are not aware of as once these structure were built and they weren't building in the same fashion there would be no need to continue using equipment that served one purpose. Recycling and metal or wood for other more practical uses would be likely.

jmccr8

[Kahn]

We don't know what they did,we assume that we understand what,how why,but in reality we don't know how they did it.If They may of had some primitive tech that we are not aware of as once these structure were built and they weren't building in the same fashion there would be no need to continue using equipment that served one purpose. Recycling and metal or wood for other more practical uses would be likely.

This flies in the face of scientific evidence that has been around for the last 100 years and in other cases (old world) longer. There is no question that the stone tools that litter the sites and quarries were used to carve out the stones. The stones clearly show the dimpling indicative of stone on stone tools. At Machu Picchu we even have blocks that were in the process of being carved and shaped as they were being fitted to go into a walls in at least two places on the site.

Ignoring evidence is not an argument, it is ignorance.

[George Ford]

Abe, even the Illinois were capable of grooving stone, though here it was unintentional:

They used the stone with the grove to form stone axes. Just one stone rubbing against the other with some sand and water in between. And that is from the late stone age.

I bet they used wee. Wee is acidic and would have maybe accelerated the process. Although it's just an idea.

[jmccr8]

Hi Kahn,

Sorry if the point I was making was unclear.I agree that they used stone tools in some instances and later cooper and bronze to shape the blocks of stone.I thought that if anyone had read some of my earlier links and posts that that would be a known. What I was referring to was that there may have been other primitive tech employed for other attributes of the construction phase of these projects that may not have been necessary for the construction of later smaller projects and that they would be stripped and recycled for more practical purposes.

As an example from personal experience, I was asked by a farmer that I had met if I could find a 2 litre motor for a car that he had when I got back home from working at a common friends ranch.I found a motor for him and he asked if I would deliver it to him ,to which I agreed.When I drove the 250k to his place to deliver it to him he asked if I would do the R&R on the motor.I said that I would but I didn't bring my tools and engine lift to do the swap.He had mechanics tools there but did not have an engine lift, but he did have a chain fall and some chains.Where he had the car was in a spot the I could not access with my truck, and the car was not in operating condition so moving it was not an option.

I backed the truck up to the retaining wall and slid the motor to the rear of the truck box, I then lashed 2 sturdy corral posts together leaned them against the overhang of the retaining wall lifted the motor out of the box with the chain fall and lowered it over the wall and down to ground level.I then disassembled the posts and chain fall and lowered them over the wall and climbed over.I then lashed 3 corral posts together with a chain added the chain fall lifted the motor and walked the tri-pod with engine lifted to clear ground level about 10 metres and installed the motor.No high tech involved just blood sweat and tenacity,when it comes to doing these types of things I just do what I have to do to get-er-done.There is no if,but,or maybe baby.and if your in my way when I'm doing it I'll move you too.

jmccr8

[Kahn]

Hello Jmccr8,

Sorry if I sound a little exasperated. If you read the previous two pages, you'll know why. Even the moderator had enough.

My point is that all too often modern man looks at many of these wonders of the ancient world and just because the task of construction or workmanship looks like it would be daunting, has to ascribe some supernatural power achieving the feat. If I were one of the craftsmen that worked on one of these wonders I would be thoroughly insulted.

Did you know that using the same stone tools found at the Inca sites, a single worker could shape an average size stone in only a day and a half? Now look at what an army of workers can do ...

These were fantastic people. We should not sell them short.

Edited October 20, 2013 by Kahn

[jmccr8]

Hi Kahn,

Thank you for your response,yes since joining this forum I have had the opportunity to be exposed to a wealth of information from several of the posters here that I have a great deal of respect for their knowledge and willingness to share it.I have always felt a certain kinship with these ancient craftmen and an appreciation for the works that they have produced.

As a child I was always in my dad's toolbox,cutting scraps of wood or pounding nails in boards.For my 5th birthday my dad bought me my first hammer and saw and every bday and Christmas I would get more tools from him well into my late teens.He bought me a rotor-tiller went I was 11 and I hauled that puppy with my rake fork and gas can all over our neighborhood every spring and fall earning my own way. I knew that I wasn't going to be a doctor as I had no interest in what was inside me and would rather take apart and put together inanimate objects.

I can remember as a child my old toy cars they were the ones that had the little metal tabs on them and rather than pushing them around going vroom-vroom I would very carefully take them apart and put them back together again careful not to break the tabs because the rule at our place was if you broke your toys you wouldn't get another one.Funny thing I still had many of them up until 6yrs ago when I moved out here they lasted more than 50yrs in my care.

My first true love was a brand new 1965 thunderbird that Dr.----'s had White with a red roof ,with red and white leather interior.I can remember having my face pushed up against the window with my hand cupped around my eyes to stop the bright sunlight form obstructing my view when the good Dr came out and asked me if I wanted to go for a spin.I can still smell that new car smell,the scent of the leather.that was it I was officially a gearhead from that day on.

As I grew into a young man I worked at many different jobs in the construction and fabrication industries not because I wanted to do just one those trades for the rest of my life it was because they were all related,each trade was a step in a process of a finished produce and I wanted to be able to be a part of every phase of it's development not just a part of it.I didn't come from a wealthy family I knew that my parents couldn't afford to sent all 4 of us to University or trade school,so I made my work my school learning about every aspect that I could and earn a living with hope that one day I would use all that I had learned to build the things that that I saw in my mind.

I attained a journeymans status as a fitter fabricator for structural steel and pressure vessels,I later qualified for 4 welding tickets for both steel mig and stick welding,I had done tig welding for both steel and aluminum as well as aluminum mig but did not pursue certification as I knew the I was in it for my our cause.I have had the opportunity to build a great many products form highway fuel tankers,to building proto-types of portable light plants for a major equipment rental company in N.America,they own the patents on three of my ideas that were incorperated into the design of the light towers.

I have worked for myself for over 25yrs and done pretty much whatever tickled my fancy, I've had to do things the cowboy way many many times in the past and can respect the abilities of ancient craftsmen,because they weren't just some sack of brain--dead muscle,they were innovators and initiators of much of the progress throughout history.I have never underestimated them although I do believe that many people living in this age over estimate their own worth in comparison.

jmccr8