Bronze Age Espionage

[Big Bad Voodoo]

http://www.spiegel.de/international/zeitgeist/0,1518,830958,00.html

[kmt_sesh]

That is pretty uncanny. I had to double-check the caption in the article's photo to make sure the example was German and not Egyptian. Here's an actual ancient Egyptian example, which I believe it comes from the tomb of Tutankhamun:

There are other chairs that might be even better comparisons but I can't seem to find any Google images of them. What's also unusual is that the only complete one known in Europe dates to 1389 BCE, according to the article. Tutankhamun died around 1324 BCE, so that German chair is from the same time period as the boy-king. This was around the height of the Egyptian empire in the Late Bronze Age, so one can't help but speculate how the design of the folding chair reached northern Europe.

We know Egypt was interacting with Mycenaeans in this time period, although to what extent is not clear. The two peoples traded with each other, to be sure. So perhaps the Mycenaeans got their hands on one or more of these chairs, brought them home to their island or mainland polis, and from there somehow the design went north. We can only speculate but it's very interesting.

As much of a skeptic as I tend to be about things, even I can't dismiss the similarities in design. It's more than a coincidence, in my opinion, although I would argue against direct contact between Egypt and northern European peoples in the Bronze Age. An intermediary had to be in play, I believe. Egyptian designs and styles spread far and wide in the Persian, Greek, and Roman periods, but those were much-later times. This chair design is considerably older.

Really interesting article, Melo. Thanks for posting it.

[Abramelin]

Kmt, the image you posted, that doesn't seem to be a folding chair.

This is:

Egyptian folding chair from the Tomb of Kha, Deir el-Medina, Egypt. Now in the collection of the Museo Egysio, Turin, Italy. The stool is made of sycamore with ebony and ivory decoration. It has a leather seating.

Sizes are 54 x 87 x 37 cm.

http://thomasguild.b...ing-chairs.html

.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Abramelin

[Ninhursag]

Well, That Just Goes To Prove That Fashion, Like Everything Else, Is Cyclic

[Batfastard]

because there was unlikely to have been much contact between Egypt and The Germanic tribes at that time - could they have been invented simultaneously in two seperate parts of the world?

[kmt_sesh]

Kmt, the image you posted, that doesn't seem to be a folding chair.

This is:

Egyptian folding chair from the Tomb of Kha, Deir el-Medina, Egypt. Now in the collection of the Museo Egysio, Turin, Italy. The stool is made of sycamore with ebony and ivory decoration. It has a leather seating.

Sizes are 54 x 87 x 37 cm.

http://thomasguild.b...ing-chairs.html

.

Thanks, Abramelin. That's exactly the sort of example I was trying to find. No, the chair I showed isn't really a folding chair but I couldn't locate an image like the one you found.

I'm editing to add that the tomb of Kha, TT8 at Deir el Medina, dates to Dynasty 18, as I recall. I've read about this tomb but didn't know about Kha's folding chair. This still falls within the timeframe of the German chair from Melo's article. That makes it only more interesting to me.

because there was unlikely to have been much contact between Egypt and The Germanic tribes at that time - could they have been invented simultaneously in two seperate parts of the world?

Your idea could be correct. It has to stand as one possible explanation. It's just that the German chair is so remarkably similar to ancient Egyptian folding chairs in practically all manner of design, that mere coincidence seems unlikely. That's why I cited interaction and trade with Mycenaeans in my earlier post. I was just speculating on how such a chair design might have fallen into the hands of Europeans, and Mycenaeans were Europeans. How the design might have made it from the Aegean to northern Europe is much more of a gray area, in my opinion. However, I am still confident that the Egyptians of the Late Bronze Age were not interacting with northern Europeans.

Edited May 4, 2012 by kmt_sesh

[Abramelin]

Kmt, I think you forgot about the amber trade.

Nordics may have directly traded with Egyptians (European rivers, the Black Sea), or else the amber trade was maintained with the help of intermediaries, like the people from the Balkan, the Minoans, the Scythians, or whomever.

[questionmark]

The smoking gun might be the amber found in form of necklaces in ancient Egypt, those things came from the Baltic. So, if things came from the Baltic to Egypt one can suppose that it was not a one way road.

Edited May 4, 2012 by questionmark

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The smoking gun might be the amber found in form of necklaces in ancient Egypt, those things came from the Baltic. So, if things came from the Baltic to Egypt one can suppose that it was not a one way road.

Can you tell us more or link us?

@Kmt

It was my pleasure.

Edited May 4, 2012 by Melo

[questionmark]

Can you tell us more or link us?

@Kmt

It was my pleasure.

All I have is a picture now, check the Egyptian Geological Museum:

That is a predynastic piece and the center stone is Baltic amber. You can find a better image at Tour Egypt

[kmt_sesh]

Admittedly I don't know much about amber, but I don't see any necessity for direct trade or interaction between Egypt and Europe for either location to obtain it. For example, Egyptians craved lapis lazuli, which came from Afghanistan, but obviously intermediaries brought the lapis into Egypt.

[questionmark]

Admittedly I don't know much about amber, but I don't see any necessity for direct trade or interaction between Egypt and Europe for either location to obtain it. For example, Egyptians craved lapis lazuli, which came from Afghanistan, but obviously intermediaries brought the lapis into Egypt.

I would not say that there was a direct trade either, but evidently wares got from one part of the world to the next as long as connected by land, therefore it should not be surprising that one day a chair got to the north and was copied by somebody who did not want to give a sack of amber for the one his wife wanted...

[hetrodoxly]

Greeks, Romans etc had folding chairs, the answer is it probably never went out of fashion.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

All I have is a picture now, check the Egyptian Geological Museum:

That is a predynastic piece and the center stone is Baltic amber. You can find a better image at Tour Egypt

How do we know that...?

[questionmark]

How do we know that...?

What? The age of the piece? Or its origin?

The age is quite simple, it was taken out of a tomb with an old corpse in it, establishing the origin you can learn here. Now there is the remote possibility that Oded Golan came around before the archeologists did and put that necklace on a mummy...

Edited May 6, 2012 by questionmark

[Big Bad Voodoo]

What? The age of the piece? Or its origin?

The age is quite simple, it was taken out of a tomb with an old corpse in it, establishing the origin you can learn here. Now there is the remote possibility that Oded Golan came around before the archeologists did and put that necklace on a mummy...

From which tomb? Ages?

[questionmark]

From which tomb? Ages?

King tut, breast plate 1352 BC

Thutmose II , inscription in his tomb that people from the North brought 8940 pounds of amber (~1500 BC)

several other finds dating up to 3000 BC

Do I have to do all the research for you?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I thought you knew so that you didnt need to research it. Its simpliest way is to ask rather then spending hours to get answer.

Anyway thanks.

[Flawsious]

Is there anyway for Apple to sue over this lol.

[TheMolePatrol]

They probably 10x more sturdy than Wal-Mart brand rah rah rahhhh