Religion as a Safety Behaviour

[Mr Walker]

MW,

I appreciate the reasons you provide for being religious are those that many others would also provide. I do not see religion as being indispensible to those reasons, however. A person can be/have all those things you describe without religion in their life at all.

One could and many do. I would argue, perhaps, that such a person would be spiritual in nature. Religion is simply a codified set of practices, and may well offer advantages to a person who needs such rituals as it provides. But spirituality goes to the essence of a person and their motivations and choices. A person who is a vegetarian, for example will often have a spiritual reason underlying that choice. So will a person who choses not to take any form of drugs or alcohol. In fact this choice is so rare that it is almost inevitably based on a spiritual form of belief (Unles one is a recovering alcoholic of course) Even very health conscious people generally have an underlying sense of spirituality which informs why they try hard to be fit and healthy.

But no, religious beliefs are not required to motivate people to such lifestyle choices. Because they are hard to maintain and often socially exclusive, however, an inner belief, or drive, or faith, does enhance peole's success in sticking to such regimes. and life styles. Hence, statistically, religious and spiritual people, world wide, demonstrate the greatest advantages from those choices.

[markdohle]

I am sorry that you have to suffer in this manner. From my experience, religion is not a safety net for this kind of issue. Atheist who have these kinds of struggles don't become religious to find an answer . Religious people are not often helped by their faith, and though it may give them some strength, the problem persist. Those that I care for either get help or they don't, and at times help is useless for some. It is an experience I would not wish on anyone.

Faith in God and an afterlife is not irrational, neiher is it irrational for many not believe in God or the afterlife. It is a personal choice. Now apart from religion, there is a relationship with God that can help, but a great deal of trust is needed. I have seen many helped when God becomes real and they actually experience a response. An inner focus is developed and some form of healing is experienced, thought again, the problem is not taken away.

Religion which is imporant, is not the same as having a deep and loving relationship with God. The problem is this, proof that is not based on personal experience iis impossible to find, it does not exist. If there was proof, of the kind that atheist demand, then faith would not be needed nor trust. Trust and faith are conscious choices, based on the knowledge that God may in fact not exist, we simply don't know. On some level we are all agnostic to some degree. Those who protest otherwise, I believe (just me) or not being honest with themselves. Logic can be used to proof any point one wants to. A good debater can take both sides of an issue, use logic and win the argument. No logic is not the answer. It is like believing in love, personal experience will lead someont to believe that love is possible. To say the love is not possible is to live in a world without love.

I hope you life becomes better my friend and if you dont' mind I will pray for you.

peace

mark

[libstaK]

I’ve struggled with debilitating physical symptoms resulting from chronic, intense anxiety on and off since the age of 12. The only thing I’ve found to help my anxiety, which for me is 100% effective, is medication and just becoming so busy with work, school, what have you, that you don’t have time to think about or ruminate over your fears.

I guess everyone’s different, and perhaps your anxiety is less severe and has very different triggers than mine does, but in my experience attempting to meditate and quieting your mind while you’re experiencing anxiety is not effective. Being alone and having more time to think is what allows anxiety, fears, and depression to flourish in the first place.

There are group meditations which because they are "led" and often involve verbal mantras will instill discipline to the mind and teach you to silence those thoughts - the very act of listening and verbalising will create a defined focus, these may be helpful. Also Tai Chi has a meditative component and yet fully occupies the thoughts on the precision of the physical activity.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Leo, having an illness like Multiple Sclerosis which effects the brain in some really crazy ways I understand what it is like to have a disorder. I have a lot of reason in my life to have a lot of anxiety on my own without help from my brain. I find my Pagan spirituality has been great help on building strength in my emotional well being. It is not the religion part, though. It is the actions like meditation, deep thought, time spent in nature, and learning concentration that has brought changes in the my thought patterns. I had therapy and my therapist taught me how you can change brain chemistry to an extent and medication is part of that. The goal is to learn to do it with out medication.

The trouble with an anxiety disorder is it is so deep in the primitive brain, it is triggering fear response. Here is a breathing exercises to change the fear response, Breath in through you nose 7 beats, hold it 7 beats, then breath out through your mouth for 8. Repeat. What you are doing is slowing down your breathing, so you are instinctively telling your brain there is nothing fearful. Animals (us) respond to fear by speeding up breathing which speeds up the heart so you are ready for flight. Now when I wake up with anxiety I breath slowly while I check the front door lock. Nothing is perfect, but at least I'm not up all night with it anymore.

No religious dogma do that for you. Religion is a way to explain what you can't understand. Revealed religion is like death to me as they don't leave room for exploration. I have to learn and explore, a deity just takes all the fun out of it. All knowing would be very boring.

[karmakazi]

Religion, or more specifically religious gathering, feels the opposite of safe to me. I have social anxiety that sometimes borders on agoraphobia, and is compounded if I feel I would be in a situation facing judgemental people. For me, the Christian churches that I have attended felt that way so it was very difficult to go. I did however retain my interest in religion but at times it's a very clinical interest and not something I cling to as a comfort. It can be a distraction, in that reading and writing about it lets me focus on something other than the anxieties.

[Star of the Sea]

Thanks for the replies, everyone.

KoS,

It's true that many people have a fundamental desire to be part of something greater. Not everyone is happy being 'boss', and many want the certainty of knowing that the rules are set by others, so they don't have to worry about setting them themselves. See where this is leading?

Being a 'follower' is a safety behaviour. It's tough having to make decisions for yourself, having to make your own principles, ethics and morals. It causes a lot of people anxiety having to do this.

Star,

I appreciate that a religious person will necessarily have a differing opinion than a non-religious person regarding the 'benefits' of religion. Can you provide me an example of a religion (just one) where the consequences of non-adherence are stated to be not worse than the consequences of adherence?

This is how religion reinforces those anxieties it is presumed to relieve.

Mr Right Wing,

It's very true that anxieties are self-created. Many are also stress about something imaginary, rather than something real. However, in the mind of the sufferer these anxieties are real. 'Deprogramming' as you describe it is something that is used in various community health services to educate the sufferer regarding their condition, and hopefully help them realise the irrational nature of their anxiety.

seeker and Chloe,

I make a distinction between spirituality and religion. A person can be spiritual, hold a belief is a 'higher power', without admitting any 'ownership' of that 'power' over themselves. Without imagining that 'power' sets rules.

Religion is all about ownership and/or the setting of rules. This is what is supposed to relieve the anxiety caused by the "Big Questions", but it doesn't. It uses that anxiety to enforce adherence.

Hi Leonardo,

What you are focusing on is your 'perceived' notions that religion requires you to adhere to rules for it to be of any benefit, hence inducing anxiety. It matters not one little jot whether a religion pertains to adherence rules for it to be of benefit or indeed for it to cause any harm. What does matter greatly though Leonardo is the fact that millions of people round the world find comfort and guidance in worshipping a higher being.

If someone suffers with anxiety then this will manifest itself in most areas of their life whether the trigger be religion, meeting people, exams and so on. The person is 'already' suffering with anxiety as it is one's maladaptive thought processes that triggers the anxiety. That is why we find people who are happy to belong to a religious faith with adherence rules and are well balanced people who do not focus on any negativity. Then there are those who are over zealous, fundamentalist people who transfer their maladaptive cognitive responses onto others through religion. Their irrational beliefs are expressed more extremely as "must, should and ought" So if you transfer that line of thinking through religion (or anything for that matter) thing's can get pretty skewed. When I hear of people preaching 'hell and damnation' then I recognise that it is their maladaptive' interpretation of religion that is being transferred onto another human being and not the religion itself per se.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Star of the Sea

[+Sherapy]

Hi Leonardo,

What you are focusing on is your 'perceived' notions that religion requires you to adhere to rules for it to be of any benefit, hence inducing anxiety. It matters not one little jot whether a religion pertains to adherence rules for it to be of benefit or indeed for it to cause any harm. What does matter greatly though Leonardo is the fact that millions of people round the world find comfort and guidance in worshipping a higher being.

If someone suffers with anxiety then this will manifest itself in most areas of their life whether the trigger be religion, meeting people, exams and so on. The person is 'already' suffering with anxiety as it is one's maladaptive thought processes that triggers the anxiety. That is why we find people who are happy to belong to a religious faith with adherence rules and are well balanced people who do not focus on any negativity. Then there are those who are over zealous, fundamentalist people who transfer their maladaptive cognitive responses onto others through religion. Their irrational beliefs are expressed more extremely as "must, should and ought" So if you transfer that line of thinking through religion (or anything for that matter) thing's can get pretty skewed. When I hear of people preaching 'hell and damnation' then I recognise that it is their maladaptive' interpretation of religion that is being transferred onto another human being and not the religion itself per se.

Star,

Question, just for my own clarity, Is your response,in this case, specifically addressing cognitive factors as the underlying cause of anxiety?

Thanks doll.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Sherapy

[Star of the Sea]

Star,

Question, just for my own clarity, Is your response,in this case, specifically addressing cognitive factors as the underlying cause of anxiety?

Thanks doll.

Hi Sheri,

Yes in a nutshell! It is one's own thoughts and interpretations to life that brings on anxiety. It's our thoughts (cognition) that causes a chain reaction, affecting our emotions and behaviour. If you are constantly over emphasising and catastrophizing things you really need to do a 'reality check' by stopping and examining these thoughts to see whether they are valid and realistic and this also applies to religion.

[Leonardo]

Hi Leonardo,

What you are focusing on is your 'perceived' notions that religion requires you to adhere to rules for it to be of any benefit, hence inducing anxiety. It matters not one little jot whether a religion pertains to adherence rules for it to be of benefit or indeed for it to cause any harm.

For example the Catholic belief of 'losing eternal life' if one dies in a 'state of mortal sin' can appear pretty scary and controlling, but only for those that don't understand or have no faith! . I have no need to be anxious about my beliefs as I have faith in what Christ has promised to those who follow him.

The second quote is from one of your previous posts, Star. Is it just my 'perceived notion' that a Catholic would be following rules through exercising their faith in what "Christ has promised"?

Is it not true that that faith is the shield offered against the threat or fear of "losing eternal life"? Only someone who believes in mortal sin requires faith against it.

What does matter greatly though Leonardo is the fact that millions of people round the world find comfort and guidance in worshipping a higher being.

I don't doubt that. I have made a clear distinction between spirituality and religion in my posts. It is religion which I am suggesting is the safety behaviour and the cause/source of anxiety, not spirituality.

[+Sherapy]

Hi Sheri,

Yes in a nutshell! It is one's own thoughts and interpretations to life that brings on anxiety. It's our thoughts (cognition) that causes a chain reaction, affecting our emotions and behaviour. If you are constantly over emphasising and catastrophizing things you really need to do a 'reality check' by stopping and examining these thoughts to see whether they are valid and realistic and this also applies to religion.

Thank you, One more question Star, is anxiety abnormal behavior and if so what is the criteria for abnormal behavior? How much do cultural norms figure in? I ask because at one time it was thought that homosexuality was deviant? I'm thinking that normal/ abnormal sort of exist on a continuum more then a either or proposition. Is this correct?

For me, there have been times in my life I have probably displayed a maladaptive behavior to cope.

Edited May 9, 2012 by Sherapy

[ChloeB]

Chloe your quest is always so sincere and inspiring for information on what makes us who we are - I just had to say that.

To Leonardo and inspired by what you have described, a couple of things.

First Leonardo, your question is an excellent one and speaks to a fundamental place in which I aspire to stand. To "believe" in God or any deity through fear of the alternative is not sincere or true to one's highest aims, it is a reaction to fear and a survival mechanism playing itself out in our psyche, unconsciously and therefore in ignorance of any "truth". I have battled this and rejected it many times, but it has it's sway, there are always nuances of thought that speak "I am guilty of sin" or "I would fear facing God being that he knows all I have done" etc. That said, what Seeker spoke of is the crux of true spiritual belief - having experiences that inform irrevocably that a higher power or unknown supremely intelligent force is in action are what transform a soul. Religion is a stumbling block to this knowledge as much as it is to anyone who believes through fear in so many instances. In others it is the primer of the experience, everyone is different and so much is involved in evolving a soul I think. Basically, until a soul arrives at the point of knowledge of this other force they are very much acting on anxiety of the unknown - that is absolutely possible and likely but the anxiety itself, being sincere is a "prayer" of sorts that rarely remains unanswered in the true seekers.

However, even though once this "epithany" so to speak has occurred it is impossible to return to a simple believer state, it is not the grand step forward that might be imagined. Knowing a little about a huge mystery is it's own frightening experience. Information, from the religious, the spiritual, the atheists, the "gurus", science all have a difference nuance and therefore effect on the psyche. Wading through a sea of "information" is what disorients and distorts IMO. Pure experience is just that "pure" unadulterated and bears so little resemblance to known or even often describable information that I have to say knowing there is a "God" is not really saying I know much of anything of the nature of existence at all - but I have a rock of granite inside that cannot be shaken, a cornerstone upon which some building can occur and that is beyond liberating in ways I can't fully describe but am truly thankful for.

As to Chloe's post. A close family member had little to no "belief" in God for most of her life. An experience that left her financially and emotionally bereft made this person suicidal and feeling the depths of despair. The lowest point was when her therapist rang me in a fit of panic because she had stormed out and refused to answer her phone while yelling "I can't take anymore", I had to leave work and look for her, I was terrified but something helped me find her walking along the street sobbing, I am so grateful for that. I introduced her to my meditation group, through meditation and information I have to say the most incredible transformation did occur. She is now in a loving relationship with a very financially secure partner whose love encompasses ensuring she knows he will always take care of her - and that's not just words, the actions have been what most of us girls would consider a "fairytale knight in shining armour" and this girls feelings for those who embezelled and bankrupted her? The anger and hatred - GONE, the sense of worthlessness - GONE, their power over her - GONE. Instead she truly feels sorry for them and what they have created for their reality and wishes them no ill at all (even I cannot be so forgiving should I come across one of these low lifes in the street) - the transforming power of faith did that.

But where does she stand religiously? - meh, no interest whatever and I would be hard put today to have a deep discussion on such matters with her. Nevertheless, she knows there is an intelligence and that she is loved and in knowing that I see love shine from her that I did not see before in her life (even before the shining knight showed up as she was healing this was manifesting into full bloom). What we place our faith in, the energy of our thoughts in, cannot be underestimated in it's power to overcome even great and deep obstacles.

Everything comes down to it - the power of thought and why thought has such power.

Thank you, LibstaK. That made me feel all good, hehe. *blushes*

You said......"crux of true spiritual belief - having experiences that inform irrevocably that a higher power or unknown supremely intelligent force is in action are what transform a soul."

I think, or this is what makes sense to me now, based on my experience and life, that what really transforms a soul, doesn't have to be in touch with "God", per se, but absolutely a higher power, and I think that higher power could very simply be something like your higher self, and what is that? Well I guess there's a lot of new age ideas on that, but this is how I see it.........just living is like putting miles on a car, you get dings, you accumulate toxic thought patterns that manifest in some people in ways such as anxiety, but all this mileage of life is piled on top of something else, your true self. In that book, he talks about meditation and getting your mind and all the racing thougths to be still for a moment and you will experience "unconditioned awareness", the awareness separate from all the programming it's went through just living, and through all that piling up like that, we kind of develop a false self, our roles we play - mother/father, son/daugher, wife/husband, your career, your status, but those are like Firefox add-on's, lol. We forget that deep part of ourselves and getting in touch with that, is to me the greatest tool of transforming yourself, because that's at the core of you, you get behind all those roles, those judgements you have accumulated about yourself and how you view life and the world and how you "believe" it views you that shapes your own self-image, and getting behind that, you find your essence, your being, your true self. Someone like me might get there and slough off all the baggage and find that at the level, we are all the very same, even part of one thing......Eighty brought up the "thou", remember Joseph Campbell thread about "thou art that"? So much of anxiety is fear of being alone, fearing of being so much more screwed up than everyone else and looking at life as thou art that, there's some comfort in that. I loved the story about your family member, brought some tears to my eyes, but maybe that's what she found, just the her, the real her, before all the other. I think I'm getting the hang of meditating and it could be said to be something just like brain-traing, but I hold out you get the thoughts shut down, something else shines through the fog, call that whatever you want. There are many ways that I think you can get there, very simple things. Like me, I started running and I hated running all my life, I worked out but running I despised, but I got on this program where you build up to 5k and there are these moments that I get in that place they call a zone, and it's as spiritual a feeling as anything I could imagine. At that moment, I am completely there, 100% and all clear, there's no fear, no doubts, I have courage and optimism and confidence and that is one of the times I feel most connected to me, the me before me, like I'm the star of my own personal Nike commercial. I joked about it, but I get in that zone where everything, breath, rhythm are in this perfect symphony and nothing else exists except the sound of my breath, and I had the strangest thought, it was so funny, but I said I felt like Sea Biscuit, lmao. I found my inner Sea Biscuit, haha! But in all seriousness, I don't think a higher power has to be a separate intelligence, but just as simple as a more pure you minus all the fears, hangups, and accumulated baggage of life, just reconnecting with that part of yourself, that you forgot existed or had no idea, I think is worthy of being called a higher power. When you realize that is inside you, you have truly found something amazing and transformative and you realize there's a part of you that you didn't even know, an empowering you that shatters all those doubts and insecurities you have about yourself, because this you has none of that and you know it's you so it makes you know without a doubt it's possible to be that way, to experience what it feels like to feel that way, better and happier, just like your inner Sea Biscuit, lol. I think finding that is the most empowering, life-changing thing. It's why I now love running so much.

Edited May 9, 2012 by ChloeB

[libstaK]

Thank you, LibstaK. That made me feel all good, hehe. *blushes*

You said......"crux of true spiritual belief - having experiences that inform irrevocably that a higher power or unknown supremely intelligent force is in action are what transform a soul."

I think, or this is what makes sense to me now, based on my experience and life, that what really transforms a soul, doesn't have to be in touch with "God", per se, but absolutely a higher power, and I think that higher power could very simply be something like your higher self, and what is that? Well I guess there's a lot of new age ideas on that, but this is how I see it.........just living is like putting miles on a car, you get dings, you accumulate toxic thought patterns that manifest in some people in ways such as anxiety, but all this mileage of life is piled on top of something else, your true self. In that book, he talks about meditation and getting your mind and all the racing thougths to be still for a moment and you will experience "unconditioned awareness", the awareness separate from all the programming it's went through just living, and through all that piling up like that, we kind of develop a false self, our roles we play - mother/father, son/daugher, wife/husband, your career, your status, but those are like Firefox add-on's, lol. We forget that deep part of ourselves and getting in touch with that, is to me the greatest tool of transforming yourself, because that's at the core of you, you get behind all those roles, those judgements you have accumulated about yourself and how you view life and the world and how you "believe" it views you that shapes your own self-image, and getting behind that, you find your essence, your being, your true self. Someone like me might get there and slough off all the baggage and find that at the level, we are all the very same, even part of one thing......Eighty brought up the "thou", remember Joseph Campbell thread about "thou art that"? So much of anxiety is fear of being alone, fearing of being so much more screwed up than everyone else and looking at life as thou art that, there's some comfort in that. I loved the story about your family member, brought some tears to my eyes, but maybe that's what she found, just the her, the real her, before all the other. I think I'm getting the hang of meditating and it could be said to be something just like brain-traing, but I hold out you get the thoughts shut down, something else shines through the fog, call that whatever you want. There are many ways that I think you can get there, very simple things. Like me, I started running and I hated running all my life, I worked out but running I despised, but I got on this program where you build up to 5k and there are these moments that I get in that place they call a zone, and it's as spiritual a feeling as anything I could imagine. At that moment, I am completely there, 100% and all clear, there's no fear, no doubts, I have courage and optimism and confidence and that is one of the times I feel most connected to me, the me before me, like I'm the star of my own personal Nike commercial. I joked about it, but I get in that zone where everything, breath, rhythm are in this perfect symphony and nothing else exists except the sound of my breath, and I had the strangest thought, it was so funny, but I said I felt like Sea Biscuit, lmao. I found my inner Sea Biscuit, haha! But in all seriousness, I don't think a higher power has to be a separate intelligence, but just as simple as a more pure you minus all the fears, hangups, and accumulated baggage of life, just reconnecting with that part of yourself, that you forgot existed or had no idea, I think is worthy of being called a higher power. When you realize that is inside you, you have truly found something amazing and transformative and you realize there's a part of you that you didn't even know, an empowering you that shatters all those doubts and insecurities you have about yourself, because this you has none of that and you know it's you so it makes you know without a doubt it's possible to be that way, to experience what it feels like to feel that way, better and happier, just like your inner Sea Biscuit, lol. I think finding that is the most empowering, life-changing thing, more so than a separate higher power off somIt's why I now love running so much.

That is beautiful - finding your true self (refer my sig LOL). It is pivotal and can be the total experience for sure - but ... more/other experiences are possible, those that inform of an external intelligence too. Is it necessary to recognise it in one way or the other to be completely connected though? - no, I don't think so and both paths have their transcending epithanies in full. As above, so below, as within, so without - and yes, "I am that" is still a favorite that I now refer to quite often, thank you for that.

[ChloeB]

That is beautiful - finding your true self (refer my sig LOL). It is pivotal and can be the total experience for sure - but ... more/other experiences are possible, those that inform of an external intelligence too. Is it necessary to recognise it in one way or the other to be completely connected though? - no, I don't think so and both paths have their transcending epithanies in full. As above, so below, as within, so without - and yes, "I am that" is still a favorite that I now refer to quite often, thank you for that.

There may be other experiences possible, I don't rule that out, and no I really don't think it is necessary or if at the bottom of it all, there is any difference in what is internal and what is external other than a way we've learned to perceive things in a world of duality. Why I wrote all that is because the section that I quoted from the book is from a chapter about another approach for recovering from anxiety is finding personal meaning to your life; sometimes people are restless, bored, frustrated and this adds to anxieties. I think that often times we says spirituality, we get images of supernatural, the transcendent God far away, that separate intelligence that is obviously for some reason inaccessible or unavailable to people and I don't think those people have to be any less spiritual, but some people discount spiritual experiences because they've had religious ideas of what God is and so they disregard anything that might not fit that mold. Like Eight Bits' religious outlook, just a different way of looking at the world, and just because you have no belief in an intelligence out there or have met it or had experience with it, doesn't mean you can't have spiritual experiences that enrich your life, make it better. I don't think just having proof or knowing a God or intelligence exists really does much, who knows what it's like, maybe it's mean and spies on you and hates you, it's more about what it signifies on the grand scale of everything that matters. If it's something you feel is there for you, loves you unconditionally, supportive and all those characteristics, then it means something to you. Like a deist God, that created everything and took off, well fine maybe it exists, but it doesn't know me or isn't interested in me or care much, then so what if I knew without a doubt it existed? What matters most is that it gives you a change in perspective and strength and that could be your inner being or something outside of you, the result could be the same I think.

Edited May 10, 2012 by ChloeB

[eight bits]

It's an interesting idea that Leo offers about anxiety disorders, that they reflect a seeking after certainty. I heard an academic psychiatrist lecture about this a few years ago, and he pointed out that he thought it was significant that the "rituals" of his patients were also seen in the population at large, just not in the exaggerated form his patients engaged in.

He used the example of checking to see if you have really locked the front door when you go out of the house. Anybody at all might get to the car, and then walk back to the door to check. I think everybody has done this at one time or another. Many, many people might do that twice now and then. His patients, he said, might regularly do it so many  times that it interferes with their ever getting into the car and driving off.

I want to clarify what I wrote about Jung, that his religious opinions "had the character of certainty." Jung didn't derive certainty or reassurance about anything from his religious beliefs, but rather Jung only held those religious beliefs that he felt sure about, based on his experience.

So, Jung didn't know whether there was any continuation of life after death, but he did think it was possible based on his experiences with ghosts. He didn't know whether God created the world, but he did think that Genesis was talking about the emergence of consciousness from unconsciousness, based on his experience with patients.

The "thou" orientation that Campbell talked about wasn't aimed at cultivating confidence in the truth of some propositions. It is predictable, however, that whatever you think about things will influence what experiences you have with those things. So, the effect of choosing a perspective isn't entirely "psychological." Outlook eventually influences beliefs and assurances, because it affects the "raw material" that inform those conclusions, it affects experiences.

It doesn't change all beliefs, however, or transmute all uncertainties into certitudes.

For all his interest in psychology, Jung seems never to have been much interested in the mentality of other animals. So, Jung could tell a story about his dog coming to look for him in such a way as to avoid completely the idea that the dog made intelligent choices during his search, or that the dog even chose whether to search for Jung. I have different ideas about dogs, so when I read Jung's story, I experience a different story from the one Jung thinks he is telling.

What I think about dogs has the character of certainty, based on my experiences. My guess is that Jung didn't think much about his dog's mentality, rather than that he held a different certitude about the dog's lack of an autonomous mentality. I'd even like to think that unconsciously, Jung's anima agreed with me . Must be, because Jung sought out the companionship of dogs, despite having no conscious assent that there was anybody there to be his companion.

The moral of all that is that I don't know whether a "thou" outlook has any affect on anxiety disorders. Its effects are non-specific. Maybe the certainties it influences aren't the uncertainties that bother the sufferer. What I think about dogs or what Jung thinks about ghosts doesn't seem to have much to do with how many times either of us checks the door before driving off.

It could be, however, that different perspectives can differently affect someone's willingness to accept ignnorance of what cannot be known, or as that prayer says, to accept the things we cannot change, knowing the difference between them and the things we can change. If so, then in the libstaK-Chloe discussion, maybe God gets credit for things that result simply from people changing their personal perspective in order to go looking for him.

Edited May 10, 2012 by eight bits

[Star of the Sea]

Leo [:The second quote is from one of your previous posts, Star. Is it just my 'perceived notion' that a Catholic would be following rules through exercising their faith in what "Christ has promised"?

Hi Leo,

In your opening post you said "We undertake safety behaviours. Like religion".

You then went on to say: "Thus religion feeds off anxieties it creates within it's adherents. What better mechanism to reinforce that belief?"

and also:

"Religion only serves to temporarily mitigate the anxieties promoted by religion. It serves no other purpose that is meaningful in life".

As a Catholic I stated the obvious perceived threat that you may deem as a source of anxiety within the Catholic faith, that being: "losing eternal life through dyeing in a state of mortal sin" but I also added that it "can appear pretty scary and controlling, but only for those that don't understand or have no faith! . I also went on to say: "I have no need to be anxious about my beliefs as I have faith in what Christ has promised to those who follow him. You have to approach your faith with confidence and not fear". What I am trying to convey to you is that you have to have an 'understanding' of why Catholics stay faithful and that your reasoning Leo that Religion (from the RC viewpoint) has no purpose is erroneous IMO.

In answer to your question: "Is it just my 'perceived notion' that a Catholic would be following rules through exercising their faith in what Christ has promised"?

It's not so much following rules Leo, but it is a way of life Catholics try to lead, using Christ as an example.

There are no anxieties that I know of, that Catholics feel whilst practising their faith. I have NEVER in my 52 years of being a cradle Catholic felt anxious or have had a fellow Catholic say that they feel anxious due to their faith. There is a purpose for Catholics to follow their faith through the Catholic Church and that is to receive the "Sacraments" a fundamental part of Catholicism. The Sacraments play a big role in the life of a Catholic, but as you don't understand the intricacies of our faith then you see no reason or purpose for it Leo. Do you honestly think Roman Catholics only stay faithful because they are full of anxiety! On the contrary.. Catholics find through their faith consolation, strength, love, forgiveness and hope. So you couldn't be further from the truth Leo. When we receive the Sacraments such as: Holy Communion (The Eucharist) we firmly believe that we our receiving Christ. That is what strengthens us and through this we receive 'grace' from God to continue to be faithful. Jesus is 'our shield' nothing more nothing less.

I can't speak for other religions Leo and I hope this gives you more of an insight into why Religion serves a purpose from the Catholic viewpoint. It would be interesting to see if anyone else here on UM, who belongs to another Religion/faith could post their views and opinions too!

Edited May 10, 2012 by Star of the Sea

[Star of the Sea]

Thank you, One more question Star, is anxiety abnormal behavior and if so what is the criteria for abnormal behavior? How much do cultural norms figure in? I ask because at one time it was thought that homosexuality was deviant? I'm thinking that normal/ abnormal sort of exist on a continuum more then a either or proposition. Is this correct?

For me, there have been times in my life I have probably displayed a maladaptive behavior to cope.

Hi Sheri,

As a Psychotherapist/CBT Counsellor anxiety becomes 'abnormal behaviour' when a person starts suffering distress due to certains anxiety disorders such as: OCD, panic attacks, phobias ect.

People across all cultures suffer from anxiety disorders but the focus of the anxiety can differ from nation to nation and their culture. In Western society we are more likely to suffer anxiety with regards to work performance!

We all have experienced anxiety at sometime in our lives... I know I have! So kudos to you Sheri for sharing that with us! We have all avoided situations due to anxiety.. it's when it gets out of control and causes distress, that's when it's best to seek professional help.

With regards to Homosexuality, again this can differ from society to society and cultures, in some it is acceptable and in others it is deemed as 'abnormal behaviour.' This comes under the 'umbrella' of Abnormal Psychology which isn't my forte but it is closely linked to CBT and Psychotherapy and there is a 'crossover'. Here is some info for you Sheri: Social norms change over time, behavior that was once seen as abnormal may, given time, become acceptable and vice versa. For example drink driving was once considered acceptable but is now seen as socially unacceptable whereas homosexuality has gone the other way. Until 1980 homosexuality was considered a psychological disorder by the World Health Organization (WHO) but today is considered acceptable.

http://www.simplypsy...psychology.html

Edit: Sheri it's too late to edit my above post to Leo and just noticed a spelling mistake! So apologies Leo and UM, Dyeing should be spelt Dying LOL!!!

Edited May 10, 2012 by Star of the Sea

[+Sherapy]

Hi Sheri,

As a Psychotherapist/CBT Counsellor anxiety becomes 'abnormal behaviour' when a person starts suffering distress due to certains anxiety disorders such as: OCD, panic attacks, phobias ect.

People across all cultures suffer from anxiety disorders but the focus of the anxiety can differ from nation to nation and their culture. In Western society we are more likely to suffer anxiety with regards to work performance!

We all have experienced anxiety at sometime in our lives... I know I have! So kudos to you Sheri for sharing that with us! We have all avoided situations due to anxiety.. it's when it gets out of control and causes distress, that's when it's best to seek professional help.

With regards to Homosexuality, again this can differ from society to society and cultures, in some it is acceptable and in others it is deemed as 'abnormal behaviour.' This comes under the 'umbrella' of Abnormal Psychology which isn't my forte but it is closely linked to CBT and Psychotherapy and there is a 'crossover'. Here is some info for you Sheri: Social norms change over time, behavior that was once seen as abnormal may, given time, become acceptable and vice versa. For example drink driving was once considered acceptable but is now seen as socially unacceptable whereas homosexuality has gone the other way. Until 1980 homosexuality was considered a psychological disorder by the World Health Organization (WHO) but today is considered acceptable.

http://www.simplypsy...psychology.html

Edit: Sheri it's too late to edit my above post to Leo and just noticed a spelling mistake! So apologies Leo and UM, Dyeing should be spelt Dying LOL!!!

Aww, thank you for your informative post.

Edited May 10, 2012 by Sherapy

[ChloeB]

It could be, however, that different perspectives can differently affect someone's willingness to accept ignnorance of what cannot be known, or as that prayer says, to accept the things we cannot change, knowing the difference between them and the things we can change. If so, then in the libstaK-Chloe discussion, maybe God gets credit for things that result simply from people changing their personal perspective in order to go looking for him.

I think that people who can't tolerate with uncertainty to accommodate have a lot of issues with control, trying to control what will happen because then there's no surprises, but no one can control everything and that realization leads to a lot of anxiety. The serenity to accept the things you cannot change is sort of a plea for help with that, could be sort of like a mantra or affirmation even. The changing perspective, it could be something as just how you react to life challenges, tragedy.......instead of why oh why did this happen to me, if you are able to accept that you cannot change that it happened to you, but look for something in the midst of the darkness, what could I learn from this, what life lesson could I take away, and there's potential for some growth through horrible things that happen, you reach down deep inside and pull out your guts and show what your made of or you lay down and give up. I think that the idea that there's some meaning and even something like a higher power behind it all even the bad things you are so scared of might actually bring something out you couldn't have learned about yourself any other way than this terrible thing that happened to you in life. If God or a Higher Power coddled everyone, they wouldn't grow much at all. So for a person who is trying to control everything, they can't, but to look at it like that, they aren't a victim, but a student of life.

[+Sherapy]

It's an interesting idea that Leo offers about anxiety disorders, that they reflect a seeking after certainty. I heard an academic psychiatrist lecture about this a few years ago, and he pointed out that he thought it was significant that the "rituals" of his patients were also seen in the population at large, just not in the exaggerated form his patients engaged in.

He used the example of checking to see if you have really locked the front door when you go out of the house. Anybody at all might get to the car, and then walk back to the door to check. I think everybody has done this at one time or another. Many, many people might do that twice now and then. His patients, he said, might regularly do it so many times that it interferes with their ever getting into the car and driving off.

I want to clarify what I wrote about Jung, that his religious opinions "had the character of certainty." Jung didn't derive certainty or reassurance about anything from his religious beliefs, but rather Jung only held those religious beliefs that he felt sure about, based on his experience.

So, Jung didn't know whether there was any continuation of life after death, but he did think it was possible based on his experiences with ghosts. He didn't know whether God created the world, but he did think that Genesis was talking about the emergence of consciousness from unconsciousness, based on his experience with patients.

The "thou" orientation that Campbell talked about wasn't aimed at cultivating confidence in the truth of some propositions. It is predictable, however, that whatever you think about things will influence what experiences you have with those things. So, the effect of choosing a perspective isn't entirely "psychological." Outlook eventually influences beliefs and assurances, because it affects the "raw material" that inform those conclusions, it affects experiences.

It doesn't change all beliefs, however, or transmute all uncertainties into certitudes.

For all his interest in psychology, Jung seems never to have been much interested in the mentality of other animals. So, Jung could tell a story about his dog coming to look for him in such a way as to avoid completely the idea that the dog made intelligent choices during his search, or that the dog even chose whether to search for Jung. I have different ideas about dogs, so when I read Jung's story, I experience a different story from the one Jung thinks he is telling.

What I think about dogs has the character of certainty, based on my experiences. My guess is that Jung didn't think much about his dog's mentality, rather than that he held a different certitude about the dog's lack of an autonomous mentality. I'd even like to think that unconsciously, Jung's anima agreed with me . Must be, because Jung sought out the companionship of dogs, despite having no conscious assent that there was anybody there to be his companion.

The moral of all that is that I don't know whether a "thou" outlook has any affect on anxiety disorders. Its effects are non-specific. Maybe the certainties it influences aren't the uncertainties that bother the sufferer. What I think about dogs or what Jung thinks about ghosts doesn't seem to have much to do with how many times either of us checks the door before driving off.

It could be, however, that different perspectives can differently affect someone's willingness to accept ignnorance of what cannot be known, or as that prayer says, to accept the things we cannot change, knowing the difference between them and the things we can change. If so, then in the libstaK-Chloe discussion, maybe God gets credit for things that result simply from people changing their personal perspective in order to go looking for him.

Excellent pull 8ty,

You know , the people that I respect and who have been on this earth awhile--I always ask them-- if they could recommend one book to me what would it be. My second mom,mentor, confidante (and 84, and a retired school psychologist and therapist ) choice was, "Who moved my cheese."

I do not know if you know of this gem of a book ( but you most likely do, knowing you 8ty.) It is the most profound little book ever, IMO! Life is not static, we cannot control everything, it changes, so embracing change IMO is the key to releasing anxiety.

I think the wisdom of age helps too, I'm glad to be 45, it really is much easier the older I get.

http://www.amazon.co...36697847&sr=8-1

She even bought me a copy, this was years ago, this book is still being passed around, I just head last week that one of my tutee's friends was reading it.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Sherapy

[Leonardo]

I think that the idea that there's some meaning and even something like a higher power behind it all even the bad things you are so scared of might actually bring something out you couldn't have learned about yourself any other way than this terrible thing that happened to you in life. If God or a Higher Power coddled everyone, they wouldn't grow much at all. So for a person who is trying to control everything, they can't, but to look at it like that, they aren't a victim, but a student of life.

Isn't the envisaging of a 'higher power with a plan' still reaching for control, Chloe? Isn't it still trying to grasp at certainty, rather than accepting the uncertain nature of our existence?

I would agree that the envisaging of a 'higher power' by itself is not those things, but when you grant that 'higher power' control over you, or 'the universe' (or the condition of your afterlife), then you are looking to make your life (or afterlife), the events in it, less uncertain. This is one area where religion is a safety behaviour.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Leonardo

[ASSORYPAL]

I think, that you are not right. I am assured. I suggest it to discuss.

[+Sherapy]

Isn't the envisaging of a 'higher power with a plan' still reaching for control, Chloe? Isn't it still trying to grasp at certainty, rather than accepting the uncertain nature of our existence?

I would agree that the envisaging of a 'higher power' by itself is not those things, but when you grant that 'higher power' control over you, or 'the universe' (or the condition of your afterlife), then you are looking to make your life (or afterlife), the events in it, less uncertain. This is one area where religion is a safety behaviour.

In this case, I would look at the locus of control as either internal or externally motivated, more then anything else. In the end, I personally think that if it works to hand your troubles over to spirit /g-d or use mantra's (or whatever one calls it) and it helps to feel better or cope better then what is the harm?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Locus_of_control

Locus of control is a theory in personality psychology referring to the extent to which individuals believe that they can control events that affect them. Understanding of the concept was developed by Julian B. Rotter in 1954, and has since become an aspect of personality studies. A person's locus (Latin for "place" or "location") can be either internal (meaning the person believes that they control their life) or external (meaning they believe that their environment, some higher power or other people control their decisions and their life).

Edited May 11, 2012 by Sherapy

[Leonardo]

In this case, I would look at the locus of control as either internal or externally motivated, more then anything else. In the end, I personally think that if it works to hand your troubles over to spirit /g-d or use mantra's (or whatever one calls it) and it helps to feel better or cope better then what is the harm?

What's the harm, then, in other safety behaviours exhibited by people with anxiety disorders? Why do health services think it important to teach sufferers of those disorders to confront their anxieties without resorting to safety behaviours?

For sure, not all practitioners of 'safety behaviours' are debilitated by those behaviours - and those for whom the effect in their lives is minor are not going to consider eliminating them will bring any great benefit*. That does not detract from religion being (in a large part) a safety behaviour and so should not be taught (or officially condoned) as a method of avoiding anxieties (rather than facing them). It also does not forgive the fact that religion promotes anxiety/worry in order to retain the adherent.

*This is debatable from a psychological perspective.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Leonardo

[Toadie]

This is taken from book "brain that changes itself"

Brain scans of ocd patients show that all three brain areas are hyperactive. Schwartz set out to develop a treatment that would change the ocd circuit by unlocking the link between the orbital cortex and the cingulate and normalizing the functioning of the caudate. Getting patients to shift the caudate manually by paying constant, effortful attention and actively focusing on something besides the worry, such as a new pleasurable activity. This approach makes sense because it grows a new brain circuit that gives pleasure and triggers doopamine release. The new circuit can eventually compete with the older one and according to use it or lose it, the pathological networks will weaken.

What they suggest when something starts to worry or you become stressed, feel anxiety coming on.

1- relabel what is happening, tell yourself you are having ocd attack.

2- remind yourself the attack doesnt go away immediately because faulty circuit

3- remind yourself it can change

It has been known that drs will often get patients to focus or confront the fear. Which can be dangerous as this doesn't get the patient to shift their thought but instead they dwell more on it sometimes intensifying the attack.

Another form cognitive therapist make their patients write down their fears and then list reasons. Which can also be dangerous

Schwartz suggests when patient feels attack they should refocus on a positive, wholesome ideally pleasure giving activity ie gardening, listen music, work out, hobby, play instrument you must shift the gear manually. By refocusing the patient is begining to fix their transmission by growing new circuits and altering the caudate. They learn to not get sucked by the content of an obession but work around it. If you keep thinking about the issue you will deepen the obsessive circuit but bypassing it, they are on the road to losing it.

It essential to understand that it is not what you feel while applying the technique that counts, it is what you do. The struggle is not to make the feeling go away, the struggle is not to give in to the feeling, by acting out a complusion or thinking about the obsession. This technique wont give immediate relief because lasting neuroplastic change takes time, but it does lay the groundwork for change by exercising the brain in a new way

By doing something pleasurable in place of compulsion patients form a new circuit that is gradually reinforced instead of the compulsion. Neurons that fire apart wire apart, by not acting on it you weaken the link between the compulsion and the idea it will ease your anxiety

[Leonardo]

This is taken from book "brain that changes itself"

Brain scans of ocd patients show that all three brain areas are hyperactive. Schwartz set out to develop a treatment that would change the ocd circuit by unlocking the link between the orbital cortex and the cingulate and normalizing the functioning of the caudate. Getting patients to shift the caudate manually by paying constant, effortful attention and actively focusing on something besides the worry, such as a new pleasurable activity. This approach makes sense because it grows a new brain circuit that gives pleasure and triggers doopamine release. The new circuit can eventually compete with the older one and according to use it or lose it, the pathological networks will weaken.

What they suggest when something starts to worry or you become stressed, feel anxiety coming on.

1- relabel what is happening, tell yourself you are having ocd attack.

2- remind yourself the attack doesnt go away immediately because faulty circuit

3- remind yourself it can change

It has been known that drs will often get patients to focus or confront the fear. Which can be dangerous as this doesn't get the patient to shift their thought but instead they dwell more on it sometimes intensifying the attack.

Another form cognitive therapist make their patients write down their fears and then list reasons. Which can also be dangerous

Schwartz suggests when patient feels attack they should refocus on a positive, wholesome ideally pleasure giving activity ie gardening, listen music, work out, hobby, play instrument you must shift the gear manually. By refocusing the patient is begining to fix their transmission by growing new circuits and altering the caudate. They learn to not get sucked by the content of an obession but work around it. If you keep thinking about the issue you will deepen the obsessive circuit but bypassing it, they are on the road to losing it.

It essential to understand that it is not what you feel while applying the technique that counts, it is what you do. The struggle is not to make the feeling go away, the struggle is not to give in to the feeling, by acting out a complusion or thinking about the obsession. This technique wont give immediate relief because lasting neuroplastic change takes time, but it does lay the groundwork for change by exercising the brain in a new way

By doing something pleasurable in place of compulsion patients form a new circuit that is gradually reinforced instead of the compulsion. Neurons that fire apart wire apart, by not acting on it you weaken the link between the compulsion and the idea it will ease your anxiety

Sounds good, but it is essentially avoidance behaviour. The modern approach to therapy for anxiety disorders and associated safety behaviours is to encourage the sufferer to experiment with ceasing the safety behaviour and so prove the association to the anxiety is false. This enables a psychologically stronger recovery from the anxiety, rather than allowing that anxiety to remain unchallenged but simply 'shifted' into association with some other thought or behaviour.

With the anxieties I listed in my OP, however, this methodology cannot be applied because the association of the safety behaviour to the anxiety cannot be disproven. This is where religion gains much of the strength of it's grip on the adherent from.

Edited May 11, 2012 by Leonardo