Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

Personally I think that his assumption that some of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt came from the North Sea area is plausible; the whole of Scandinavia and the North Sea area was inhabited by people ho lived on the sea and.the coasts.

But he can only make of them "Atlantians" if he does what everone with an Atlantis theory does: twist Plato's tales beyond recognition, like hammering a square block into a same sized circular hole. If you hit hard enough, it will eventually fit.

.

Hi Kantzveldt,

Not to put you off - we really need 'fresh blood' in this thread, lol - but if you click on the second link in my signature, you will be redirected to the first - and now archived - part of this thread. Then enter "pillars" in the search tool for that thread (then click on the magnifying glass) and you will read what we all posted about those Pillars.

Anyway, Spanuth may have considered the tall rocks of Heligoland, near the entrance of the river Elbe in the German Bight, as being those Pillars. One of them is called "Lange Anne" (Tall Anne).

Iman Wilkens - who wrote a book about "Troy in England" suggested the rocks of Dover and Calais were these Pillars. Perhaps he was thinking of the old Flemish/Belgian name for Calais "Kales". Now fabricate something Celtish-ish, and you will get "Hern Kales" or Kales' Corner, or the rocky outcrop near Calais.

Then, there is an ancient (medieval) map depicting these Pillars near the entrance of the Frisian "Middle Sea", while another ancient medieval map depicts them somewhere in the province of Drenthe, south-east of the present province of Friesland. Some thought that the "hunebedden" (dolmen) overthere where these pillars, but if you know how they look, you will realize that is very unlikely.

Now I have come up several times with the OLB "Kadik" (of which is suggested by many to be "Cadiz") being nothing but a fishing town called "Katwijk". The town's name is locally pronounced like "Kattik" or "Kaddik".

To my surprise I found again an old image in a book that shows two pillars (much like your 'irminsuls') on both sides of the entrance of the harbour in "Lugdumum" near (or at) Katwijk.

Give me a moment, and will post that pic again.

+++

EDIT:

Here it is:

Btw: right now there is an archeological dig going on in Katwijk to look for an ancient (Roman) harbour.

.

That's quite interesting - because the mention that Atlantis overlooked GADES has always budged me back to well, Gades, Cadiz in Spain - but if Gades or Kadiz is Katwijk, then Atlantis could be outside the Pillars of Heracles AND overlook Gades.

[The Puzzler]

I believe there are 1st cent BC relief carvings of Medea in Pergamon.

I wonder, is Frisia actually Aea/Colchis of the myth, because that is where Medea 'lives'. Was this trip by the Argonauts actually to Northern Europe and they took back the law and knowledge of these people of the Sun....

Aea, named after Aeetes, a kind of son of Helios.

http://www.koeblerge...ch/afries-A.pdf

*â

(3), afries., Adv., Konj.: nhd. immer, unbedingt, immerhin, jedesmal, je; ne.

always, ever

They went to 'everland'. Or is that 'Neverland', or maybe it's the Netherlands

I'd believe it. lol I need sleep.

Edited May 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Erudite Celt]

This tomb relief is from the 2-3rd century BC the head of Medea has been smashed of. It is strange that a goddess who held such influence in pagan society, should almost disappear from the archaeological landscape. I wonder did the first century Christians see her as a threat to the growing cult of the Virgin Marry and destroy her depictions?

[Abramelin]

That's quite interesting - because the mention that Atlantis overlooked GADES has always budged me back to well, Gades, Cadiz in Spain - but if Gades or Kadiz is Katwijk, then Atlantis could be outside the Pillars of Heracles AND overlook Gades.

Can you give me the relevant quote from Plato, Puzz? I will bet you have it ready at hand, or else I must go on a Google trip again.

To get back to the OLB: as the people interested in the OLB will know, the idea that the OLB "Aldland (Old Land) or "Atland (an alternative spelling used by sailors) is Plato's "Atlantis" has spread like wildfire on the internet.

Most probably by people who never took the trouble to read te OLB (translation) themselves. If they had (and not read Sutton's 'alternative' interpretation instead) they would know that Aldland was too far away from the European empire of the Fryans, and thus no need to wage wars (these two OLB tribes did not like eachother that much). The Fryans were supposed to be excellent sailors, so Dogger Island would not be too far away at all for them. And if we go back further in time, we have Doggerland that was actually attached to the European mainland.

.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I wonder, is Frisia actually Aea/Colchis of the myth, because that is where Medea 'lives'. Was this trip by the Argonauts actually to Northern Europe and they took back the law and knowledge of these people of the Sun....

According to one myth, Medea fled to the Persian area, and her 'followers' became known as the "Medes".

[Abramelin]

This tomb relief is from the 2-3rd century BC the head of Medea has been smashed of. It is strange that a goddess who held such influence in pagan society, should almost disappear from the archaeological landscape. I wonder did the first century Christians see her as a threat to the growing cult of the Virgin Marry and destroy her depictions?

Thanks for uploading that pic, EC (I hope you won't mind me abbreviating your username, lol).

But what I meant was: is there an old Dutch or Frisian book that gives us a depiction of this golden statue of Medea in the city of Medemblik?

A threat to the "Mary cult"? Interesting idea.... in Europe many 'forms' of Isis were being venerated... maybe she 'chamged into the Catholic "Black Madonna"?

.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

It's a good thing to have an extra few new persons from around or near the North Sea area participating in this thread: Kantzveldt (Germany?) and Erudite Celt (Ireland).

Not that I do not appreciate that people from farther away participate; but I assume that people from around the North Sea area or the Celtic Shelf, or Scandinavia - those interested in their ancient history and mythology - will be have the history of their country (or a lot of it) ready at hand. Or at least they know where to look for more relevant info.

Btw: Cormac is of Irish descent. Did you know that, EC?

He is one of those who lives 'farther away', but he sure has the legends of his Irish ancestors saved in his memory.

.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Horagalles

The two hammers of the thunder god depicted as a blue cross on a late 18th-century shaman drum from Porsanger, Western Finnmark, Norway,

Now I'm envisioning Pink Floyd The Wall.

Edited May 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

This tomb relief is from the 2-3rd century BC the head of Medea has been smashed of. It is strange that a goddess who held such influence in pagan society, should almost disappear from the archaeological landscape. I wonder did the first century Christians see her as a threat to the growing cult of the Virgin Marry and destroy her depictions?

Abe said: Oh, and it's a short step from "Meda" (which means 'virgin' or 'maiden' - maagd - according to Van den Bergh) to "Medea".

I have an opinion of what might have happened.

According to one myth, Medea fled to the Persian area, and her 'followers' became known as the "Medes".

Yes, how about that.

Edited May 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Can you give me the relevant quote from Plato, Puzz? I will bet you have it ready at hand, or else I must go on a Google trip again.

To get back to the OLB: as the people interested in the OLB will know, the idea that the OLB "Aldland (Old Land) or "Atland (an alternative spelling used by sailors) is Plato's "Atlantis" has spread like wildfire on the internet.

Most probably by people who never took the trouble to read te OLB (translation) themselves. If they had (and not read Sutton's 'alternative' interpretation instead) they would know that Aldland was too far away from the European empire of the Fryans, and thus no need to wage wars (these two OLB tribes did not like eachother that much). The Fryans were supposed to be excellent sailors, so Dogger Island would not be too far away at all for them. And if we go back further in time, we have Doggerland that was actually attached to the European mainland.

.

To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, PS: I edited this, something fouled up before.

http://classics.mit....to/critias.html

I'd have to think exactly how it would mean, it sounds too obviously at Spain, but the OLB sounds to cover a larger area than you think it does - think the same way, I'm too tired now but I reckon it could work. I'll stick to the OLB for now here though, it's enough to struggle through.

Edited May 22, 2012 by The Puzzler

[Erudite Celt]

Thanks for uploading that pic, EC (I hope you won't mind me abbreviating your username, lol).

But what I meant was: is there an old Dutch or Frisian book that gives us a depiction of this golden statue of Medea in the city of Medemblik?

A threat to the "Mary cult"? Interesting idea.... in Europe many 'forms' of Isis were being venerated... maybe she 'chamged into the Catholic "Black Madonna"?

.

No problem AB it seems like common scene to me ! .

A bit of topic and a general observation, but isn't ancient history and anthropology just fascinating!

@ TP aka The Puzzler. How lucky you are to live in Australia. The Aboriginals have a magnificent cornucopia of Legends.

regards EC

[Van Gorp]

Van Gorp, I see you doing 'etymology' the way Edo Nyland does it: he chops up a word into small parts (even to single letters), then changes these parts into complete Basque (also modern Basque) words to get a whole sentence, and that sentence (or row of words) is supposed to be the original Basque meaning of the word. Any word, from any language.

But withouth first knowing what the unmutilated word stands for, he cannot perform his trick.

There is nothing 'intuitive''about that method. You can perform that trick using any language if you try hard enough, as long as you know of the 'standard accepted' etymology, or else you will be lost.

What you (as a Dutch or Belgium man) are doing for the Dutch language is the same as nowadays many Turks do for the Turkish language, many Hungarians for the Magyar language, Albanians for the Albanian langugae, Macedonians for the Macedonian language, and no doubt I forgot several other nationalities: prove your language is the oldest, most original, and most wide spread language around.

To Edo Nyland's defence I can say: he's not a Basque (he's Dutch).

.

Honestly, I find you’re remarks sometimes very to the point :-)

But why should it be that black-white?

I don’t see this as a game to win.

I can’t tell for others, but me: yes I use my mother-tongue to try to go to the basic meaning of what was once one single language (spoken by different people, with their own tongue).

For me it is not that strange that Basques, Magyars, Turques, Polish, … do the same.

Cuz Scyth was there too, maybe it helps to follow the trace.

Practically everywhere you can find what is called Indo-European origin.

Well, no shame for everyone to try to make it concrete (and maybe tell the politicians that there is no need to separate us against one and another, look to Greece).

But on the other side we should keep celebrating the imperial Roman suppression that is still going on?

No, I won’t go along with that :-) They were the true barbarians, letting people fight as animals to survive and for amusement (Brood & Spelen).

Disturbing many people's heritage and native language.

All is connected,

as it is with Duin en Tuin (a dune encloses/omtuint, barricades the land against the see with high sand),

as it is with Saturn (Zaad and Kronos, the turning of the tijd and the ability of governing agricultural live with knowledge of these 2).

[Abramelin]

No problem AB it seems like common scene to me ! .

A bit of topic and a general observation, but isn't ancient history and anthropology just fascinating!

@ TP aka The Puzzler. How lucky you are to live in Australia. The Aboriginals have a magnificent cornucopia of Legends.

regards EC

EC,

If it will be finally and definatively proven that the OLB is a 100 % fake, I still will not regret having taken part in this thread for all these years.

It 'forced' me to look into ancient Dutch books I would never have dreamt of of even willing to investigate before that.

But I did, and it was fkg fascinating.

Things you will never hear in highschool, because those 'geniusses' (aka 'teachers') won't be interested at all in trying to inform those guys and girls in their classroom, who are in an eternal fight against acne, about the true history of their country.

.

Edited May 22, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Honestly, I find you’re remarks sometimes very to the point :-)

But why should it be that black-white?

I don’t see this as a game to win.

I can’t tell for others, but me: yes I use my mother-tongue to try to go to the basic meaning of what was once one single language (spoken by different people, with their own tongue).

For me it is not that strange that Basques, Magyars, Turques, Polish, … do the same.

Cuz Scyth was there too, maybe it helps to follow the trace.

Practically everywhere you can find what is called Indo-European origin.

Well, no shame for everyone to try to make it concrete (and maybe tell the politicians that there is no need to separate us against one and another, look to Greece).

But on the other side we should keep celebrating the imperial Roman suppression that is still going on?

No, I won’t go along with that :-) They were the true barbarians, letting people fight as animals to survive and for amusement (Brood & Spelen).

Disturbing many people's heritage and native language.

All is connected,

as it is with Duin en Tuin (a dune encloses/omtuint, barricades the land against the see with high sand),

as it is with Saturn (Zaad and Kronos, the turning of the tijd and the ability of governing agricultural live with knowledge of these 2).

Sounds good to me.

Those Romans, I reckon you are absolutely spot on there, the true barbarians.

On that note, I'm really off to bed.

[Otharus]

You're happy we do not??

I hope you know we borrowed a lot of words from Latin and Greek, in modern times, and already in the early middle ages.

We have been part of the Roman empire and later of the 'holy' Roman empire.

Our scholars published in Latin a few hundred years.

So it is not strange that we adopted words from Latin (that may have been adopted from our more ancient language in the first place).

But we do not speak Latin and that is what I meant.

I do not think it was ever really a spoken (by the common people) language anyway, not even in Italy.

[Kantzveldt]

Personally I think that his assumption that some of the Sea Peoples who invaded Egypt came from the North Sea area is plausible; the whole of Scandinavia and the North Sea area was inhabited by people ho lived on the sea and.the coasts.

But he can only make of them "Atlantians" if he does what everone with an Atlantis theory does: twist Plato's tales beyond recognition, like hammering a square block into a same sized circular hole. If you hit hard enough, it will eventually fit.

.

But there is reference to the Egyptians looking at their own carved pillars and hieroglyphs in order to demonstrate their knowledge of the 'Atlanteans' as Plato saw them, and their incursions into the Mediteranean. One of the first things they would have ascertained is what had brought them there, this involving storms and loss of low lands/islands, these being located in the far North.

It's likely they would have followed the routes established by the Phonecian traders, in reverse, perhaps encouraged by their tales of the lands they brought their goods from. If the identity of the 'actual Atlanteans' can thus be established all else is plain sailing....

[The Puzzler]

No problem AB it seems like common scene to me ! .

A bit of topic and a general observation, but isn't ancient history and anthropology just fascinating!

@ TP aka The Puzzler. How lucky you are to live in Australia. The Aboriginals have a magnificent cornucopia of Legends.

regards EC

They certainly do, I actually live in Far Nth Qld where there is many who still hold the traditional values intact.

It is fascinating, glad you joined us.

[Abramelin]

It appears to me that the oldest known names of"Medemblik" didn't use the -B- at all.

http://www.edward-we...set=300&view=60

The older the map, the more you will see something like "Medemleck".

"Medea my laugh" (Mêdêa mei lakkja), but so do I, lol.

.

Edited May 23, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

We have been part of the Roman empire and later of the 'holy' Roman empire.

Our scholars published in Latin a few hundred years.

So it is not strange that we adopted words from Latin (that may have been adopted from our more ancient language in the first place).

But we do not speak Latin and that is what I meant.

I do not think it was ever really a spoken (by the common people) language anyway, not even in Italy.

Yes, the civilians didn't speak Latin, but as we both know it was kind of 'posh' to write books in Latin, even up to the 19th century.

It showed you had had a 'real education' and that you were a 'wo/man of learning'.

But it was also a 'lingua franca', like English is now. You just had to have a command of Latin if you wanted to be taken seriously in science.

And what you said about the Romans could be true: they were not averse of adopting 'gods' and 'goddesses' of the countries they had conquered into their pantheon, so words form the languages spoken in those countries would not be something they would have had a problem with either.

[Van Gorp]

Hello,

i know the amount of time/posts that have gone into this subject, so i expect you will have covered this, but am wondering what was made of it;

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irminsul

http://www.elfinspel...usGermany4.html

I was surprised that Spanuth who makes the case for Atlantis myth being based on late bronze age culture in the North sea region seemingly not being aware of these Frisian Pillars of Hercules, the case is made here without referance to such;

http://frontiers-of-...r-bischoff.html

Hi Kantzveldt,

Thnx for mentionning this.

A view related to this is coming from

Charles-Joseph Degrave, ancien Conseiller du Conseil en Flandres

« République Des Champs Elysées ou Monde Ancien » (described as ‘Hellische’ Kampen)

a source, undoubtedly allready mentionned earlier on this forum.

I don’t know if you are known with the french language, but his point can be summarized as follows:

Homerus is the one and only, who gives us a real detailed topographic description of the Champs Elysées.

But Homerus’ Odysessee (see etymologic link Saint Omar, Om-Er) must be read with care, during ages myths have spown clouds and prejudgements about the subject.

Homerus is not describing a mythic, extraordinary land or elaborating for pages on the beauty of it.

It was seemingly nice living, governed by Roux Rhadamante (Raad-mannen, de Roe-Wisen -> Druids) with people of just behaviour and good morals.

Located in the extreme part (of the known world).

In other parts described as extreme north (touching the north-sea). See also previous west rotation of old maps.

North was what now is depicted as west.

Following Degrave, the Greeck and Latin did write about Atlantis but where practically unknown to the real location/practical life because they simply hadn’t reached it

(only just for some like Homerus, which he tend to think to be not a Greeck).

The book is also full with other names passing in OLB. Hellena not the least.

Hel and Enfer is very interesting -> Hell the under-ground (Hel is descend), that’s why the modern Hell is located underground.

Though previous connected with paradise and everlasting justice (see the place where even the death are judged for their deeds) ???

Elysée is in that view not other than Hellisch.

Hel-In -> descend in, lean towards or just the natural inclination of how things go in life (flow of water from higher to lower fe, the simple life fe, go with the flow).

Below extract from the source mentionned.

...

[Abramelin]

Great, now you post something French to a guy with a German name (and that could mean - SURPRISE!! - that he is a German or an Austrian).

Anyway, Spanuth was 10 times more sane than De Grave.

Spanuth has been proven wrong, true, but he was not some *_*_* basing his grand theory on crap etymology.

++

EDIT:

No, wait: you are convinced that any word from any European language can be translated by using Dutch words. OK, then show us how you are going to translate this French text into your Lego-Dutch, the oldest living language on earth. And when you did, Kantzveldt will understand it, as you once claimed people would (they never did, but who cares).

You love to do it one word at a time, now try a whole page.

This will be fun.

.

Edited May 24, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I'll tell you something else: I do think there is a possibility that Homer based his Ilias and Odyssey on something that happened in the North Sea/ Baltic area, and that the Greeks adopted those myths/stories and made them happen in the Med.

But to prove that, using only language, you will have to know and prove how people in the Baltic and North Sea area spoke 3500+ years ago.

[flashman7870]

Yeah, and while langage is great... you really need archeological evidence to. I think it's more likley that Homer simply heard words from the North and used them in his story. And besides, if they were from the far north, we didnt he just say this happened in thule or Hyperborea?

[Abramelin]

Yeah, and while langage is great... you really need archeological evidence to. I think it's more likley that Homer simply heard words from the North and used them in his story. And besides, if they were from the far north, we didnt he just say this happened in thule or Hyperborea?

I am not going to argue about that: I have always said that archeology would provide more solid proof than language alone.

But to know why and what Homer said, you better ask Puzzler here: I think by now she knows his work by heart.

[Abramelin]

Btw, yesterday I found something about the Oera Linda Book and this Thule.

I post it just to show how people distort what they read. The OLB is already confusing enough without other people spreading their interpretations as though it is actually part of the contents of the manuscript.

One relatively modern mention of Ultima Thule was in the Dutch manuscript known as the Oera Linda, a collection of mythic, historic, and religious writings purported to date back as far as 2000 BC.

(...)

The substance of the Oera Linda manuscript is a remarkable if rather unorthodox revisionist history of the world, in which all the modern races of the world are traced back to an Aryan master race whose Frisian culture, a matriarchal society centered on the worship of the Norse goddess Freya, originated in Northern Europe. It mentions, not only Thule, but also Atlantis as centers of this ancient civilization, which is claimed to have fostered both the Greek and Phoenician alphabets.

http://mattermojo.blogspot.com/2011_04_01_archive.html

To be clear: the OLB does not mention "Thule", and it does not mention "Atlantis as center of this ancient civilization".

It mentions "Aldland" (called "Atland" by the sailors), and all the OLB says about it is that it was inhabited by the Finda, that it was far away from Fryan land (ergo: NOT the North Sea because that borders at the European mainland where the Fryans lived), and that it went down in 2194 BC.

That's it and that's all.