Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #626 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Thanks. Within that Star of David, did you notice a sun with 6 rays? That is like the JOL, but then with the spokes moved to the outside. I thought it was based on a geometric pattern ('flower pattern') with which you can create an embellished Star of David: Here is one from a synagogue: . Edited June 28, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted June 28, 2012 #627 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I don't know how to translate -oorden in proper English, but it is a wellknown word from the OLB Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct. http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...82&lemma=waerde http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=oord http://nl.wikipedia....aard_(landschap) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward Some OLB fragments with WRD: THÁ KÉMON THÁ LANDWÉRAR UT ALLE WRDA WÉI THRVCH MIN FOLK BEN IK KÉREN TO GRÉVETMAN OVIRA LINDA WRDA THA WALDA THÉRA LINDA WRDA WÉRON MÉST WÉI NÉI THA WRDUM FON STÁVERE ÀND THÀT ALDERGA TO MIDNE FONET FÉST.FÍRJA KÉM NÉVIL TO HULLANDE VSA WRDA IN THIKKE THJUSTERNISE SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE WRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA THÁ GOSA FALLEN WAS THÁ WILDON THA LJUD FON ALLE WRDA ÉNE OTHERE MODER KJASA THENE OTHERA SVJARING NÉI MANNA.GARDA.WRDA. MANNA.GARDA.WRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK. MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN. MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN. DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA BY HJARA LJUDA ROND THAT ALD ÀND JONG UT ALLE WRDUM WÉI KÉMOM MIN TÁT HETH SKRÉVEN HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND. LINDA.HÉM IS JETA WÉI. THA LINDA.WRDA FAR EN DÉL Varieties of LJUDWERD: Ljuwert [hidde/16]; 1256 CE Ljudwerd [liko/23]; 803 CE Ljudwardja [113/25-26] ca. 300 BCE Ljvdwérd [143/21] ca. 250 BCE Ljvwrd [143/22] idem Ljvwerde [206/11] ca. 50 BCE The following list of toponyms also demonstrates how Newfrisian spelling is degenerating (changing D into T): Dutch/ Oldfrisian spelling VS "Nyfrysk": Britswerd - Britswert Burgwerd - Burgwert Cornwerd - Koarnwert Hartwerd - Hartwert Jorwerd - Jorwert Kimswerd - Kimswert Leeuwarden - Ljouwert Rewerd - Rewert Tjerkwerd - Tsjerkwert Wieuwerd - Wiuwert Edited June 28, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #628 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I understand, and that is why I said that 'wrald' is also used in Old Frisian, and even in modern Frisian. In old Frisian both forms appear to have been used side by side as the link to the pdf showed. And then again, the 'wralda' in that sentence I showed you really means 'world', although Sandbach left it out in his translation (I haven't checked Ottema's translation yet). But ok, so Wr_alda could mean many things: Overly Old, The World, Timekeeper, and something like a(n Eternal) Guardian ("wera" = to defend). . I think wralda means world, but my question is how is the word world made up? (Many things, yes, but which one is correct..?) Is it really old man. The Frisian has an a, as in WARLD. It doesn't matter if it's also WRALD, the point is it has an A, the world for W'R must be WAR root imo, not WER or WIR. Again: WARalden Olmai. Unless you can get man from WAR, I don't think the word that starts what became the word world is man. http://en.wikipedia..../Waralden_Olmai Edited June 28, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted June 28, 2012 #629 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) Well, I am glad you are going to do it because lately I am having bit of 'translation fatigue', lol. Me too actually, so I will not hurry. I found some great sources, that I will just scan and post first, so we can discuss them later. As always, I save the best for last. Coming up first: article by Wilkens (2005) in Semafoor, about Jensma's thesis. Edited June 28, 2012 by Otharus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #630 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I think wralda means world, but my question is how is the word world made up? (Many things, yes, but which one is correct..?) Is it really old man. The Frisian has an a, as in WARLD. It doesn't matter if it's also WRALD, the point is it has an A, the world for W'R must be WAR root imo, not WER or WIR. Again: WARalden Olmai. Unless you can get man from WAR, I don't think the word that starts what became the word world is man. http://en.wikipedia..../Waralden_Olmai I don't think the vowel shift (a>e or visa versa) is as huge as you seem to think. I also don't think - and I said it before - that -ald means old. It actually means 'age', like in 'life span'. What I posted before is, that the original meaning of wereld/wralda/world is "mensenleeftijd" or the "age of man". Mens = man = wer Leeftijd = age = alda world O.E. woruld, worold "human existence, the affairs of life," also "the human race, mankind," a word peculiar to Germanic languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of "age of man," from P.Gmc. *wer "man" (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old). Originally "life on earth, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," sense extended to "the known world," then to "the physical world in the broadest sense, the universe" (c.1200). http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none Just look at all those different forms: woruld - werold - warld - wereld - verold - weralt - world And the Old Frisian dictionary uses both wrald as warld for world; apparently the vowel next to the -w- was not that important and it easily changed order with the -r- . Edited June 28, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #631 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Me too actually, so I will not hurry. I found some great sources, that I will just scan and post first, so we can discuss them later. As always, I save the best for last. Coming up first: article by Wilkens (2005) in Semafoor, about Jensma's thesis. Well, I did already translate a small piece (the conclusion about Van der Linden-Steggerda), so people know what they can expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted June 28, 2012 #632 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Coming up first: article by Wilkens (2005) in Semafoor, about Jensma's thesis. Since the sources I found are all in Dutch, I will just add them to my blog, and post the links here. So, for who is interested: Iman Wilkens (2005) about Jensma's thesis: http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2012/06/iman-wilkens-feb-05.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #633 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct. My problem was with the English translation for 'oord' (pural = 'oorden'). I think the English 'ward' has too many other meanings. I prefer quarter or district now I think of it. (and 'quarter' sounds interestingly close to 'waard') Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Otharus Posted June 28, 2012 #634 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Iman Wilkens (2005) about Jensma's thesis And another great article by Iman Wilkens in Semafoor of november 2006 (with references to OLB): http://fryskednis.blogspot.nl/2012/06/iman-wilkens-nov-2006.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #635 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I don't think the vowel shift (a>e or visa versa) is as huge as you seem to think. I also don't think - and I said it before - that -ald means old. It actually means 'age', like in 'life span'. What I posted before is, that the original meaning of wereld/wralda/world is "mensenleeftijd" or the "age of man". Mens = man = wer Leeftijd = age = alda world O.E. woruld, worold "human existence, the affairs of life," also "the human race, mankind," a word peculiar to Germanic languages (cf. O.S. werold, O.Fris. warld, Du. wereld, O.N. verold, O.H.G. weralt, Ger. Welt), with a literal sense of "age of man," from P.Gmc. *wer "man" (O.E. wer, still in werewolf; see virile) + *ald "age" (see old). Originally "life on earth, this world (as opposed to the afterlife)," sense extended to "the known world," then to "the physical world in the broadest sense, the universe" (c.1200). http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none Just look at all those different forms: woruld - werold - warld - wereld - verold - weralt - world And the Old Frisian dictionary uses both wrald as warld for world; apparently the vowel next to the -w- was not that important and it easily changed order with the -r- . I don't buy it. If the OLB is correct then Fryan should be the root words for all other languages. Every wara, wêr, wêra word in the OLB means keeper of some sort - this goes through to 'defenders' - of the Waraburgt - citadel/defence tower 10. Every year one hundred of the defenders shall return to their homes, and those that may have been wounded shall remain in the citadels. 10. Fon thissa wêrar skilun jêrlikes hvndred to bek kêra. Thach send thêr svme vrlaemth wrden, sa mügon hja vpper burch bilywa hjara êlle lêva long. Man is manna variations - it makes no sense that WRALDA/WARALDEN OLMAI is anything but based in wara as keeper as well. werra in Frisian means worse. I don't buy this as the true etymology of warrior at all. The etymology for warrior is a shambles imo http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/guerra#Latin The obvious answer is that a warrior is a defender, a keeper - a wêra You have alda hêrmannen translated as warriors in English - hêrmannen is actually 'army men' - the phrase is old army men, which may be warriors but warriors were actually wêra's and not old army men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #636 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Ottema translated WRDA with "oorden", but I think "waarden" (wards) would have been more correct. http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...82&lemma=waerde http://gtb.inl.nl/iW...&lemmodern=oord http://nl.wikipedia....aard_(landschap) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ward Some OLB fragments with WRD: THÁ KÉMON THÁ LANDWÉRAR UT ALLE WRDA WÉI THRVCH MIN FOLK BEN IK KÉREN TO GRÉVETMAN OVIRA LINDA WRDA THA WALDA THÉRA LINDA WRDA WÉRON MÉST WÉI NÉI THA WRDUM FON STÁVERE ÀND THÀT ALDERGA TO MIDNE FONET FÉST.FÍRJA KÉM NÉVIL TO HULLANDE VSA WRDA IN THIKKE THJUSTERNISE SÁ SKILUN THÉR IN ALLE WRDA MÀNNISKA VPSTONDA THÁ GOSA FALLEN WAS THÁ WILDON THA LJUD FON ALLE WRDA ÉNE OTHERE MODER KJASA THENE OTHERA SVJARING NÉI MANNA.GARDA.WRDA. MANNA.GARDA.WRDA IS FARIN THIT BOK. MANNA.GARDA.FORDA SKRÉVEN. MEN THAT IS MIS DÉN. DÁNÁ TÁGON HJA INOVIR STÁVEREN.S.WRDA BY HJARA LJUDA ROND THAT ALD ÀND JONG UT ALLE WRDUM WÉI KÉMOM MIN TÁT HETH SKRÉVEN HO THA LINDA.WRDA ÀND THA LJUD.GÁRDNE VRDILGEN SEND. LINDA.HÉM IS JETA WÉI. THA LINDA.WRDA FAR EN DÉL Varieties of LJUDWERD: Ljuwert [hidde/16]; 1256 CE Ljudwerd [liko/23]; 803 CE Ljudwardja [113/25-26] ca. 300 BCE Ljvdwérd [143/21] ca. 250 BCE Ljvwrd [143/22] idem Ljvwerde [206/11] ca. 50 BCE The following list of toponyms also demonstrates how Newfrisian spelling is degenerating (changing D into T): Dutch/ Oldfrisian spelling VS "Nyfrysk": Britswerd - Britswert Burgwerd - Burgwert Cornwerd - Koarnwert Hartwerd - Hartwert Jorwerd - Jorwert Kimswerd - Kimswert Leeuwarden - Ljouwert Rewerd - Rewert Tjerkwerd - Tsjerkwert Wieuwerd - Wiuwert Ward (fortification) From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search In fortifications, a bailey or ward refers to a courtyard enclosed by a curtain wall. Stavoren's ward Linda's ward Manna Garda ward Wards can be arranged in sequence along a hill (as in a spur castle), giving an upper ward and lower ward. They can also be nested one inside the other, as in a concentric castle, giving an outer ward and inner ward.[1] On the other hand, Tower houses lack an enclosed ward. The most important and prestigious buildings, such as the great hall and the keep or bergfried, were usually located in the inner ward of the castle. Nonetheless, there are a few castles where the keep is outside the inner ward, such as Château de Dourdan and Flint Castle. Lower or outer wards often held less important structures, such as stables, if there was not enough space in the inner ward. Outer wards could also be largely defensive in function, without significant buildings. In the concentric castles of the military orders, such as Krak des Chevaliers or Belvoir, the inner ward resembled a cloistered monastery, while the outer ward was little more than a narrow passage between the concentric enceintes. In general, wards could have any shape, including irregular or elongated ones, when the walls followed the contour lines of the terrain where the castle was sited. Rectangular shapes are very common (as in castra and quadrangular castles). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #637 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) (reply to your second to last post) And where does the OLB tell us there were no local dialects in their European empire (ie not their colonies)? And you are doing your best to drag modern Finnish into the equation, but you don't want me to use the language of ancient peoples who should be closely related to them. Btw, I have no problems with that alternative etymology for 'warrior'. , Edited June 28, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #638 Share Posted June 28, 2012 wara-ed defend-ed ward as fortifications imo comes from the terms for defending oneself. The keepers of the towers were the defenders - the defence came from the walling of the waraburcht, the wards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #639 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (reply to your second to last post) And where does the OLB tell us there were no local dialects in their European empire (ie not their colonies)? And you are doing your best to drag modern Finnish into the equation, but you don't want me to use the language of ancient peoples who should be closely related to them. Btw, I have no problems with that alternative etymology for 'warrior'. , Find in the OLB what WR would mean then, that will equate to how it is used in the name WRALDA. Good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #640 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) I use a dictionary, and the English 'ward' has a confusing number of sometimes rather different meanings. That's why I said I preferred 'quarter' or 'district'. The Dutch 'waard' which Otharus wanted instead of 'oord' means 'low lying lands'. 'Oord' means nothing but district, quarter, area or place. . Edited June 28, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #641 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I use a dictionary, and the English 'ward' has a confusing number of sometimes rather different meanings. That's why I said I preferred 'quarter' or 'district'. The Dutch 'waard' which Otharus wanted instead of 'oord' means 'low lying lands'. 'Oord' means nothing but district, quarter, area or place. . I just showed you what ward was, it's fortifications of a wall type, makes up the yard, or garda. The warder again is the watcher, because it all comes from WARA. The defence tower, where you had watchtowers. war-d-er , afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Wärter; ne. warden, keeper; Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s. germ. *warda-, *wardaz, st. M. (a), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; germ. *wardu-, *warduz, st. M. (u), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; vgl. idg. *øer- (8), V., gewahren, achtgeben, Pokorny 1164? war-d-ia 5, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. warten, wahrnehmen, beachten, sorgen, für; ne. care (V.), keep (V.), watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #642 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Find in the OLB what WR would mean then, that will equate to how it is used in the name WRALDA. Good. LOL, we are busy explaining words of the OLB with the dictionaries we can find. You know, I have like 40 dictionaries of all kinds of languages, from ancient Assyrian to Swahili. And, one Teach Yourself book about the Finnish language (also one of many). I will find something. And 'wralda' shows up in the OLB, not only as the name of a god, but also as 'world'. So there we should look for what WR might mean. And we did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #643 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I just showed you what ward was, it's fortifications of a wall type, makes up the yard, or garda. The warder again is the watcher, because it all comes from WARA. The defence tower, where you had watchtowers. war-d-er , afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Wärter; ne. warden, keeper; Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s. germ. *warda-, *wardaz, st. M. (a), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; germ. *wardu-, *warduz, st. M. (u), Wart, Wärter, Wächter; vgl. idg. *øer- (8), V., gewahren, achtgeben, Pokorny 1164? war-d-ia 5, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. warten, wahrnehmen, beachten, sorgen, für; ne. care (V.), keep (V.), watch Exactly. That is why I think the English 'ward' or the Dutch 'waard' is not a good alternative for what Ottema used, "oord". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #644 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) LOL, we are busy explaining words of the OLB with the dictionaries we can find. You know, I have like 40 dictionaries of all kinds of languages, from ancient Assyrian to Swahili. And, one Teach Yourself book about the Finnish language (also one of many). I will find something. And 'wralda' shows up in the OLB, not only as the name of a god, but also as 'world'. So there we should look for what WR might mean. And we did. Oh geez. I'm off to bed. Yeah, you keep looking. Edited June 28, 2012 by The Puzzler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #645 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Oh geez. I'm off to bed. Yeah, you keep looking. Sleep well. I haven't slept for 3 days. Good we have UM to keep us occupied, lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #646 Share Posted June 28, 2012 Exactly. That is why I think the English 'ward' or the Dutch 'waard' is not a good alternative for what Ottema used, "oord". More like Ottema's oord is not a good translation for the OLB WRDE, English ward is perfect, because that is what it is. Hospital ward, it's simply a walled off area, which the original form can be seen in the form of castle wards. Night. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #647 Share Posted June 28, 2012 (edited) More like Ottema's oord is not a good translation for the OLB WRDE, English ward is perfect, because that is what it is. Hospital ward, it's simply a walled off area, which the original form can be seen in the form of castle wards. Night. What makes you think those areas were walled off? And let me repeat: Otharus' "waard" means 'low lying land'. And even 'island'. Can't help it. Try 'uiterwaard'. We have zillions of those here. http://nl.wikipedia....wiki/Uiterwaard Same Wiki in English: http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Floodplain "uiter" means nothing but "outside the river". And these 'uiterwaards' get flooded during high water levels of the river. . Edited June 28, 2012 by Abramelin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 28, 2012 #648 Share Posted June 28, 2012 What makes you think those areas were walled off? What makes you think those areas were walled off? And let me repeat: Otharus' "waard" means 'low lying land'. Can't help it. Try 'uiterwaard'. We have zillions of those here. . It created a walled area. Low lying lands, you sure.....? Waard is connected to ward and the areas were actually protected, a kind of protection area to live. waard m. (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) An innkeeper, publican A landlord, host (obsolete) The master of the household; a husband (obsolete) A protector, lord http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/waard Etymology 3 From Middle Dutch waert, weert, wert. Cognate with Old English waroþ.[1] [edit] Noun waard ? (plural waarden, diminutive waardje) A holm, holme, area surrounded by rivers A type of foreland, outside a local system of dikes A dwelling mound ---------- weert Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary Jump to: navigation, search [edit] Dutch [edit] Pronunciation Rhymes: -eːrt [edit] Verb weert second- and third-person singular present indicative of weren. plural imperative of weren. ----------- Related to weren: Dutch [edit] Pronunciation Rhymes: -eːrən [edit] Etymology 1 From Old Dutch *werien, from Proto-Germanic *warjanan. [edit] Verb weren (weak in -d) to keep out ------------------- Originally from weren - to keep out - just what the wards did, ward being a form of wara/wêra - keeper/defence. Now this time I'm really off to sleep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abramelin Posted June 28, 2012 Author #649 Share Posted June 28, 2012 I am sure, but I use the Dutch etymology site. And it's obvious you don;t know what you are reading for your first quote about waard has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. OK, someone calling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Puzzler Posted June 29, 2012 #650 Share Posted June 29, 2012 I am sure, but I use the Dutch etymology site. And it's obvious you don;t know what you are reading for your first quote about waard has nothing to do with what we are discussing here. OK, someone calling. Surrounded by dykes, is probably why they are called waards. Provide an etymology for your Dutch word then. http://geerts.com/dordrecht-elisabethflood.htm Note in that article it says waards are low lying areas WITH DYKES AROUND. That is the key you are missing. IT KEPT OUT THE SEA. Back to weren, to keep out. I know more than you give me credit for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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