Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Otharus]

If the Cananefates dug their own channels, the Romans would not have needed to dig their own

I don't agree.

The Romans will have needed channels to supply their armies and other strategic purposes, while the CF may have made ones primarily to have dry land to live and farm on.

We are talking about channels, not ditches, and about the land of the Cananefates, not the whole of the Netherlands.

1. Who says smaller channels and ditches would not have been known as CAN* (whatever old term that evolved into our "kanaal")?

2. If the CF made many ditches and were named after that activity, that does not impy that they were the only ones making ditches, or that they only made ditches.

People can be named "Van Dijk" without living near a dike, while others can live there, without having that name.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

You'd think that someone copying an existing text would know how much space he would need to write the lines down on new paper.

The title may not have been part of the original text.

It does indeed look like "FOLSTAR" was initially omitted, and then added later.

Yes it looks like it was written with a different pen or ink; the letters are thicker.

It is strange because "THET BOK THÉRA A.DEL.A" is no good Fryan; it would have been something like "THET BOK FON A.DEL.A".

[Otharus]

Maybe we all are focusing a bit too much on the Batavii amd the Cananefates.

Every time the OLB-language helps inspire plausible explanations for names like these, it adds to its credibility and value.

[Otharus]

Previous research by the RMO showed that the garnets in the fibulae from Rhenen came from India and Pakistan.

...

But this is about jewelry from the early middle ages...not from a millenium of more BC.

...

The seventh century goldsmith who made the famous cloak pin of Wijnaldum​​, took his precious stones from India.

Yes I read that too last week or so.

Precious stones and metals may have been used and re-used for thousands of years.

If Friso and the 'Gér(t)man(n)a' from NW-India indeed arrived in NW-Europe after Alexander's fall, they would have brought precious things like that.

Part of their treasures will have been recycled up till today.

I have no words to describe the silver-art that I saw last year in the Frisian Museum in Ljouwert.

They must have had a very old tradition.

(I have seen many similar exhibitions all over the world.)

[Otharus]

Here is my explanation.

Just like Jan Ottema would add a title ("ADELA"), when he published his transcription and translation in 1872 on his page 1, Hidde Oera Linda may have wanted to add a title to the copy he made in 1256.

His initial idea may have been THET BOK ÁDELA.S (The Book of Adela or Adela's Book).

After having penned down the first two words (the title would have been nicely centred), he gets a better idea.

He remembers having read a title somewhere in the book, something like THET BOK THÉRA ADELA.S HELPAR.

But before writing down the last word, he gets doubts and decides to check it first.

He can't easily find it and decides to just start copying, because sooner or later he will get to the point where he read it.

Then finally... on page 91, there it is!

But FOLLISTAR does not fit and is a bit old-fashioned, so he uses an alternative: FOLSTAR.

He adds it in the space that he had left open, and since his pen is a bit worn out, the letters become a bit thicker than the other ones on page 1, that had been written with a brand new pen.

[Abramelin]

I don't agree.

The Romans will have needed channels to supply their armies and other strategic purposes, while the CF may have made ones primarily to have dry land to live and farm on.

=

1. Who says smaller channels and ditches would not have been known as CAN* (whatever old term that evolved into our "kanaal")?

2. If the CF made many ditches and were named after that activity, that does not imply that they were the only ones making ditches, or that they only made ditches.

People can be named "Van Dijk" without living near a dike, while others can live there, without having that name.

If the CF had dug ditches or canals to drain their land, we would have found traces of them, even now.

=

If CAN means ditch or canal, what does CANAN or CANIN or CANNIN mean?

=

IF CAN in Cananefates does indeed mean ditch, canal or waterway, then their name hints at their main occupation: digging canals and so on.

You cannot compare the way they received their names with how we receive our (family)names now. The surnames we have now originated in Napoleontic times: everybody received a family name, based on profession, habit, physical characteristic and so on. These surnames were passed on to next generations: even if your profession wasn't a butcher, you still inherited that name, Butcher, from your ancestors.

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Every time the OLB-language helps inspire plausible explanations for names like these, it adds to its credibility and value.

But I got the impression that the OLB is not of much help in explaining the names of the Batavi and the Cananefates.

Unless you want to stick the the Batavi being 'masters', or the 'better ones' and the Cananefates being 'rabbit catchers'.

And the Livius.org site even mentions a Mother or 'matrone' of the Cananefates: Hiannanefati :

http://www.livius.or...ananefates.html

+++

EDIT:

Maybe Cananefates is just another way of spelling CHananefates?

And then these names:

Gannascus

A Canninefate, who deserted from Roman service and together with the Chauci laid waste to Lower Germania and the Gallic bank of the Rhine after the death of Sanquinius Maximus, the governor of Lower Germania, in AD 47. The new governor Domitius [iI 11] Corbulo drove G. away and restored order. When he had G. murdered by a ruse, unrest again broke out among the Chauci, causing Claudius to pull the advance troops back to the west bank of the Rhine (Tac. Ann. 11,18f.).

http://www.paulyonline.brill.nl/entries/brill-s-new-pauly/gannascus-e418840?s.num=6

Ganuenta

is only known from an inscription on one of the votive altars dedicated to the ancient goddess Nehalennia, which were discovered in 1970-1974 in the Eastern Scheldt estuary, about 1½ kilometers northwest of Colijnsplaat. It has been argued that Ganuenta was the capital of the Frisiavones, but it is likely that it was in fact in Menapian territories, and that Frisiavones lived, in fact, a bit more to the north.

As the waters of the Scheldt and the sea have swallowed up this area, hardly anything is known about this place, which may once have been an important international port.

http://www.livius.org/ga-gh/germania/ganuenta.html

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Otharus' explanation on the added FOLSTAR sounds plausible and fairly logical imo.

[The Puzzler]

But I got the impression that the OLB is not of much help in explaining the names of the Batavi and the Cananefates.

Unless you want to stick the the Batavi being 'masters', or the 'better ones' and the Cananefates being 'rabbit catchers'.

And the Livius.org site even mentions a Mother or 'matrone' of the Cananefates: Hiannanefati :

http://www.livius.or...ananefates.html

+++

EDIT:

Maybe Cananefates is just another way of spelling CHananefates?

And then these names:

Gannascus

A Canninefate, who deserted from Roman service and together with the Chauci laid waste to Lower Germania and the Gallic bank of the Rhine after the death of Sanquinius Maximus, the governor of Lower Germania, in AD 47. The new governor Domitius [iI 11] Corbulo drove G. away and restored order. When he had G. murdered by a ruse, unrest again broke out among the Chauci, causing Claudius to pull the advance troops back to the west bank of the Rhine (Tac. Ann. 11,18f.).

http://www.paulyonli...e418840?s.num=6

Ganuenta

is only known from an inscription on one of the votive altars dedicated to the ancient goddess Nehalennia, which were discovered in 1970-1974 in the Eastern Scheldt estuary, about 1½ kilometers northwest of Colijnsplaat. It has been argued that Ganuenta was the capital of the Frisiavones, but it is likely that it was in fact in Menapian territories, and that Frisiavones lived, in fact, a bit more to the north.

As the waters of the Scheldt and the sea have swallowed up this area, hardly anything is known about this place, which may once have been an important international port.

http://www.livius.or...a/ganuenta.html

.

Maybe their name lies in their older identification as Chatti? With the C and H thing. Not sure how but the beginning of the words are similar.

According to the Roman historian Tacitus, the Cananefates were closely related to the Batavians, spoke a similar language, and were equally courageous (Histories, 4.15.1); this implies descent from the Chatti

The Mother mention got me reading more: The first one to do so was the Roman general Julius Caesar, who wrote in the sixth book of his famous Commentaries on the War in Gaul that the Gauls venerated Minerva.

Often the mention of 3 of these Mothers, sometimes blended to one.

Among the other attributes are fruits and animals. The mothers of this group closely resemble the pre-Germanic and pre-Celtic goddess Nehalennia.

http://www.livius.org/man-md/matronae/matronae.html

pre-Germanic and pre-Celtic - ? so even if the first archaeological signs are late, maybe she had actually been around much earlier.

[Abramelin]

Otharus' explanation on the added FOLSTAR sounds plausible and fairly logical imo.

It does indeed. However, if someone started adding titles to the chapters at some point in time, then how accurate were these family members at copying their chronicle? What more has been added or deleted or changed (..to make it look less old fashioned...??)

Btw, Otharus mentioned the word HELPAR (THET BOK THÉRA ADELA.S HELPAR) or in English, 'helper'.

The usual translation for FOLSTAR or FOLLISTAR is 'follower', but it actually does mean 'helper':

fol-l-ist-e, afries., F.: Vw.: s. ful-l-iste

fol-st, afries., F.: Vw.: s. ful-l-iste

ful-l-iste 6, ful-l-ste, fol-l-ist, fol-st, afries., F.: nhd. Hilfe, Unterstützung; ne.

support (N.); Vw.: s. tæ-; Hw.: s. ful-l-inge; vgl. ae. fylst, as. fullêsti*, ahd. folleisti*;

Q.: W, Jur; E.: s. *ful-l-a; L.: Hh 33a, Rh 770b

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-F.pdf

[Abramelin]

Maybe their name lies in their older identification as Chatti? With the C and H thing. Not sure how but the beginning of the words are similar.

The Chatti were also known as the Catti, so there you have it.

Cananefates = CHananefates.

Ganuenta .... the Romans used a -V- for both -U-and=V- .... so this must have been the original spelling: Ganventa.

With the use of a small crowbar I think I can mangle Ganventa enough to make it CHananefate

And let's assume the CH was also pronounced like the Scottish CH in Loch Ness (or in the Dutch Scheveningen).

,

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

I posted about Ganuenta here:

http://www.unexplain...75#entry3534276

(Check that post for the links I leftout):

"

Then the true spelling is Ganventa, so I thought, "this venta' sounds awefully Roman."

Well, then of course a lot of Googling, and this is what I found:

(link)

So there were Roman placenames ending in -venta in England.

The Roman Latin "venta" means marketplace.

But this site gives quite an extensive etymology about that 'venta', and tries to explain it had nothing to do with any Latin name for marketplace:

(link)

Bannaventa

The Roman period (c.43 – 410 AD) offers tantalising clues from a ‘lost’ Roman military site; clues which the

Low Furness: First Light archaeological discovery programme will investigate in detail between 2003 and

2008. Current archaeological survey is revealing substantial quantities of distinctive Roman military-type

masonry built into walls around Great Urswick. The only logical context for this is a fort, and close analysis

of the documentary evidence relating to names of forts in this sector of the Roman Empire reveals a missing

site in southern Cumbria known variously as Clanoventa, Cantiventi, Glannoventa and Glannibanta; which

was occupied for part of its life by a military unit; Cohors I Morinorum. Despite this name having also been

linked to other long-known Roman Cumbrian forts at Ravenglass and Ambleside, a strong case has recently

been made for it applying to a site here in Low Furness. Iron ore, building and quern stones - all vital

resources for the Romans - were all obtainable here in quantity, and Low Furness has long produced

sporadic finds of Roman coins ranging from pre-invasion issues to those in circulation at the very end of the

Empire. Will the First Light archaeological discovery programme rewrite the history books? Regular updates

of this website will allow you to find out!

(...)

Steve Dickinson indicates that his current research is building a case for a late Roman settlement and estate

at Urswick supporting the foundation of a sub-Roman, early historic, British church. His case for Patrick’s

origins at Urswick centres on a number of factors, including finding archaeological evidence there for a

previously ‘lost’ or misidentified Roman site named Glannibanta, Clanoventa, Cantiventi or Glannoventa.

Whilst this in itself would not ‘prove’ an association with Patrick’s Bannaventa Berniae, it would certainly

strengthen the case for it.

(link)

(link)

(link)

Could it be that some people are looking for an old city in the completely wrong place? Could Ganuenta/Ganventa be located in England, and not in Holland?? Was this votive altar erected by someone from England, and would that thus mean that Genuenta is not the name of a place on Walcheren Island???

Or is it just the other way round: are the British looking in the wrong place for their 'lost city'?

Glannibanta, Clanoventa, Cantiventi, Glannoventa ........ Ganventa?? At first I was sure I could not just drop the -L- from Glannoventa to get to Ganventa, but apparently that is what already happened to the name of that city the people in England are looking for. It doesn't appear too farfetched to assume that happened regularly (maybe because someone with loose teeth tried to spell it with GL, almost spit his last teeth out, and so changed it into -G-, LOL !!).

"

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Otharus]

If the CF had dug ditches or canals to drain their land, we would have found traces of them, even now.

I'm sure we have. Terps and hill-forts were built here too. These lands are only habitable with some sort of water management.

If CAN means ditch or canal, what does CANAN or CANIN or CANNIN mean?

Plural.

IF CAN in Cananefates does indeed mean ditch, canal or waterway, then their name hints at their main occupation: digging canals and so on.

So do Sé-kampar, Lith-hawar, Wit-kénings, Juttar, Anglar, Hér-lju, Sturii, etc.

You cannot compare the way they received their names with how we receive our (family) names now. The surnames we have now originated in Napoleontic times: everybody received a family name, based on profession, habit, physical characteristic and so on. These surnames were passed on to next generations: even if your profession wasn't a butcher, you still inherited that name, Butcher, from your ancestors.

Naming is done by law since 1811, but many families had used the same name for many hundreds of years before that.

My own family name has been used as such for over a 1000 years (origin Switzerland/ Austria/ S-Germany).

[Otharus]

Unless you want to stick the the Batavi being 'masters', or the 'better ones' and the Cananefates being 'rabbit catchers'.

I would never stick to one meaning. As I said before, the best names are ambiguous ones.

BTW, Kaninafata can still mean Coneycatchers even when they did not catch a single rabbit in the Dutch dunes. They may have lived in Iberia for a while before they migrated north to resettle.

Or... the coney - cunny ambiguity may already have existed back then.

Ofcourse it did; cunnilingus is Latin too. HAHA!

An open mind is a joy forever.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Otharus

[Otharus]

Otharus' explanation on the added FOLSTAR sounds plausible and fairly logical imo.

It does indeed.

Thanks

However, if someone started adding titles to the chapters at some point in time, then how accurate were these family members at copying their chronicle? What more has been added or deleted or changed (..to make it look less old fashioned...??)

I have always said that any copyist may have added, adapted and censored things. That is what copyists and translators tend to do.

Btw, Otharus mentioned the word HELPAR (THET BOK THÉRA ADELA.S HELPAR) or in English, 'helper'.

The usual translation for FOLSTAR or FOLLISTAR is 'follower', but it actually does mean 'helper'

Ottema (1872) and Jensma (2006) translated "helpers". Sandbach (1876) chose "followers".

I think it is just a variety of FOLGSTER, from FOLGJA (to follow).

From follower to helper (in meaning) is a small step anyway.

Besides, OLB indeed has the word HELPAR too.

"Follower" is simply closer to the original word.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Otharus

[Abramelin]

I would never stick to one meaning. As I said before, the best names are ambiguous ones.

BTW, Kaninafata can still mean Coneycatchers even when they did not catch a single rabbit in the Dutch dunes. They may have lived in Iberia for a while before they migrated north to resettle.

Or... the coney - cunny ambiguity may already have existed back then.

Ofcourse it did; cunnilingus is Latin too. HAHA!

An open mind is a joy forever.

"They may have lived in Iberia".

Who lived in Iberia? The Phoenicians.

Lol, I had not even read your post, but you'll love what I have been busy with for some hours....

[Abramelin]

Because of the Cananefates and the Batavi, plus the -CH-/-C-/-H-/-G- shifts, I started looking a bit deeper into the tribe they had split off from: the Chatti. And with that I will try to show you what you can 'prove' with nothing but - what I love to call - wordfk.

This will be a long and winding post, so I will start with a copy of the last sentence:

"Chatti/Catti/Cenni/Cananefates/Knn-Canan/Phoenicians/Katwijk/Kadvik/Kaduik/Kadik/Cadiz and so on."

Chatti

a Germanic tribe. At the time of Julius Caesar (midfirst century B.C.) the Chatti formed one of the Suevi tribes. Later, the Chatti were numbered among the Franks. The last mention of the Chatti dates from the end of the fourth century. The Hessians, for whom the Land of Hesse was named, were descendants of the Chatti.

http://encyclopedia2.thefreedictionary.com/Catti

The next is a link to a German site about te Chatti. Just check the words in red.

But this remark, "Sprich nicht "Katten, Schatten" oder gar "Tschätten", sondern "Hatten" oder tatsächlich "Chatten" [xatən] mit /ch/ wie bei ach" I will translate:

"Do not say "Katten. Shatten" or even "Tshetten", but "Hatten" or actually "Chatten" [xatən] with /ch/ as in LoCH Ness. (= the Dutch, Semitic and Scottish-Gaelic gutteral consonant, like you are coughing up a bug that's stuck in your throat)"

http://www.heinrich-tischner.de/22-sp/8namen/5volk/chatti.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chatti

http://books.google.nl/books?id=xeE_AAAAYAAJ&pg=PA338&lpg=PA338&dq=chatti+catti&source=bl&ots=LC_NPgneBl&sig=jqwkEXourwMvq-4yshHyZ9BImKg&hl=nl&sa=X&ei=shWZUOqeCYySswab8YHIBg&ved=0CFwQ6AEwCDgU#v=onepage&q=chatti%20catti&f=false

CHATTI

Eth. CHATTI or CATTI (Eth.??tt??, Eth. ??tta?), one of the great tribes of Germany, which rose to great importance after the decay of the power of the Cherusci. Their name is still preserved in Hessen (Hassen). They were the chief tribe of the Hermiones (Plin. Nat. 4.28), and are described by Caesar (Caes. Gal. 4.19, 6.10) as belonging to the Suevi, although Tacitus (Germ. 30, 31) clearly distinguishes them, and that justly, for no German tribe remained in its original locality more permanently than the Chatti. We first meet with their name in the campaigns of Drusus, when they acquired celebrity by their wars against the Romans, and against the Cheruscans who were their mortal enemies. (Tac. Germ. 36, Ann. 1.55, 12.27, 28; D. C. 54.33, 36, 55.1, 67.4, 5; Tac. Hist. 4.37, Agr. 39, 41; Flor. 4.12; Liv. Epit. 140; Suet. Domit. 6; Frontin. Strat. 1.1; Plin. Paneg. 20.) The Romans gained, indeed, many advantages over them, and under Germanicus even destroyed Mattium, their capital (Tac. Ann. 1.56), but never succeeded in reducing them to permanent submission. In the time of the war against the Marcomannians, they made predatory incursions into Upper Germany and Rhaetia (Capitol. M. Anton. 8). The last time they are mentioned is towards the end of the fourth century. (Greg. Tur. 2.9; Claud. Bell. Get. 419.) After this they disappear among the Franks. Their original habitations appear to have extended from the Westerwald in the west to the Saale in Franconia, and from the river Main in the south as far as the sources of the Elison and the Weser, so that they occupied exactly the modern country of Hessen, including, perhaps, a portion of the northwest of Bavaria. Ptolemy (2.11.22) places them more eastward, perhaps in consequence of their victories over the Cheruscans. The Batavi are said to have been a branch of the Chatti, who emigrated into Gaul. Some have supposed that the Cenni, with whom the Romans were at war under Caracalla, were no others than the Chatti (D. C. 77.14); but this is more than doubtful. (Comp. Zeuss, Die Deutschen u. die Nachbarstämme, p. 327, foll.; Wilhelm, German. p. 181, foll.; Latham, Tac. Germ. p. 105, foil.)

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.04.0064:entry=chatti-geo

Now check this thread, from post 10 and onwards:

2) The name "Chatti" is obviously Germanic, before the first Germanic sound shift (Grimm's Law), the name would have been something along the lines of *Kaddi.

http://www.eupedia.com/forum/showthread.php?27475-OFFTOPIC-from-Y-Subclades-Northern-Spain-amp-Gascogne

Keith-1:

The family of Keith, Marischal of Scotland derives its origin from the Catti, people of Germany, bordering on the

Saltus Hircinus [the Hercynian Forest]. [ . . . ] in the time of Tiberius they were entirely routed by Germanicus. On

this overthrow part of the Catti submitted to the Roman yoke, in order to retain their possessions in their native

country, which is now subject to the Landgrave of Hesse-Cassel who [ . . . ] designs himself Princeps Cattorum. But

the most part, under the conduct of their leader Battus, left their native country and settled about the mouth of

the Rhine, from whence that country was named Batavia --In the reign of Corbredus II sirnamed GaIdus, the

Batavian Catti sent acolony to Britain. Being separated in a storm, part of them arrived in the Thames10, and the

rest were driven to the northern parts of Scotland, and landed in that part called Cathness; which name took its

rise from Catti [ . . . ] They remained in possession of the lands for upwards of 900 years, and spread out in several

branches through the Highlands, which are at this day distinguished by several sirnames, such as Keith, Sutherland,

Clanmhurich or Macpherson, Macgillivray, Etc. under the general denomination of Clan Chattan.

The ancient name of Chatti, or Catti, came in time to be changed to Kethi, Keycht, and more lately to Keith, the

present name of this ancient family.

http://www.clan-macpherson.org/museum/documents/alang10.pdf

Katwijk, Dutch equivalent of Chadwick

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chadwick

Chadwick is a English surname, and appears to mean "from Katwijk"

The name "Katwijk" probably has its origins in the name of a Germanic tribe called the Chatten (Chatti). The Dutch word "wijk" means "area", so the name probably meant something like "the Chatti area".

In Romans times, Katwijk was a place of strategic importance. It was located at the Roman Empire's northern border, at the mouth of the Rhine river, which in Roman times was larger in this area than it is today. There was a good deal of traffic along the Rhine. Katwijk was also a jumping-off point for the voyage to Britain.

Built during the reign of Emperor Claudius (41-54), the town's name was Lugdunum Batavorum. The town's name was later associated with the name of the city of Leiden, but this is now thought to be incorrect.

In 1231, the first reference to Catwijck appeared in records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katwijk

Keith-2:

The history of the Chatten or Catti before living in Hesse is quite shrowded. Some claim that they descend from phœnician traders, and even from the Tribe of Gad. What happened to them after the Rome arrived in germaniæ historicæ is even more interesting. Those who stayed became part of Germany under Roman rule. Some bravehearts moved on. From the College of Arms, London, England, is an extract from a work on the origin of names about the Keith clan: "This family derive their descent from the Chatti, or Catti, now Hesse, a tribe of Germans, who dwelt in what is now called Hesse-Cassel, and whose name ... is preserved in Katzenfort, Katzenburgh, etc., Germany. About B. C. 100, a part of this tribe descended the Rhine, and settled in Batavia or Holland, where the name is also maintained in Katwijk aan Zee, Katswoulde, etc."

During the reign of Corbred the second, King of Scotland, circa A. D. 76, a part of these Catti emigrated to Britain, some of whom, called Fordun, "Catti Meliboci," were driven to the northern parts of Scotland and landed in that part called Kateness, or Caithness; i.e. Catti's promontory. The Celtic name for that district is "Catt taobh," Catti's side; and the inhabitants are styled "Cattich." Caithness is also called "gall taobh," "Stranger's side, way, or shore."

The first of the tribe named by the Senachies is Gilli Chattan Noir, chief of the Catti, temp. King Alpine (A.D. 831-834), from whom descend the Kethi, Keychts, Keths, or Keiths; and also the MacPhersons, Sutherlands, etc., known under the general name of Chattan Clan. The ancient title (Celtic) of the Earls of Sutherland is "Morfhear chat," Lord Cat; literally Greatman Cat."

The 17th century English/Scottish historian, Sir Robert Gordon stated, "In the year of Christ four score and two, there arrived {in Scotland] a great company of Germans named "Catti", a valiant people of mighty bodies who were banished out of their native land for killing of a Roman general. At their first arrival, their captain went onshore to spy the land, when he was suddenly invaded by a company of monstrous big wild cats that much molested the country. The fight between them was cruel, yet in the end he killed them all. From thence the thanes and earls of Catti, or Sutherland, even unto this day do carry on their crest or badge, above their arms, a cat sitting with one of its feet upwards ready to catch his prey." He continued, "There is not a rat in Sutherland. And, if they do come thither in ships from other ports, which often happeneth, they die presently as soon as they do smell the air of that country." Whatever the fate of rats in the area, there is tradition that after landing in the north of Scotland, the Catti named the area of Caithness and their chief married the daughter of the Pictish King Brude.

Robert, the chief of the Catti in 1010, fought against the Norsemen. He slew Comus, the Viking leader of the invaders, and thus gained a complete victory, for which Malcolm II gave him the lands of Keith in East-Lothian. He was succeeded by his son Robert, who also fought against the Norsemen in Fife. Somewhat later on the 7th of November, 1324, Robert I. granted a charter of the lands of Keith Marischal to Sir Robert Keith and his heirs, and the office of Great Marischal of Scotland, on account of his support against the English -- but then I have far departed from my task, which should focus on Hessen and what happened to the people who did not depart Roman rule.

http://larocheusa.org/deutsch1.htm

Chatham:

There are several theories as to the origin of the name Chatham. It was first recorded as Cetham in 880, its name coming from the British root ceto and the Old English ham thus meaning a forest settlement.[1]. The origin of the word 'Chatham' may have come from the same root as Catti or 'Chatti' named after people who immigrated to Britain.[2]. An alternative explanation is that it comes from two Saxon words cyte, a cottage, and ham, a village: a village of cottages [3] . The Domesday Book records the place as Ceteham.

http://everything.explained.at/Chatham,_Kent/

Back to the Dutch coastal town of Katwijk. Could it be "Kaddivik" or "Kadvik"?

That's a short step to "Kaduik", and from there to the OLB "Kadik"...

Isn't it funny that some claimed the Chatti may have been a Phoenician tribe??

("The history of the Chatten or Catti before living in Hesse is quite shrowded. Some claim that they descend from Phœnician traders, and even from the Tribe of Gad.")

In medieval times the name of Cadiz, a city settled by the Phoenicians, was spelled like "Kadix" (Kadiks).

And what name did others claim these Chatti were also known by? Cenni:

"Some have supposed that the Cenni, with whom the Romans were at war under Caracalla, were no others than the Chatti (D. C. 77.14); but this is more than doubtful."

Doubtful? Who cares, right?

The Phoenicians called themselves Knn, or Canan. And then we are back at the Cananefates again, heh.

No saying all this is true, but if I can fabricate all these 'connections', so could others.

Chatti/Catti/Cenni/Cananefates/Knn-Canan/Phoenicians/Katwijk/Kadvik/Kaduik/Kadik/Cadiz and so on

[Abramelin]

In part 1 of this thread I jokingly equated the Cananefates with the Canaanites by simply leaving out the -F- in Cananefates: Cananeates.

In true OLB style I tried the following:

The name of the Cananefates is commonly being explained as meaning "leek masters". Well, maybe it wasn't leek they were growing and famous for, but "red onions" a relative of leek. And in part 1 I remember posting a link to a site that showed how you can dye cloth red and orange by using the skins of these red onions...

Lo and behold: what were the Phoenicians, the Canaanites, famous for (even their name is said to be derived from it): their purple dye (made from snails), a dye with which they colored cloth making it something much loved and very expensive.

[Van Gorp]

Just trying to get something ...

What was now the Chatti location during Roman times, let's say around Tacitus time?

Hessen - Katwijk is quite a stretch.

At the same time Tacitus tells about a conquest between Hermunduri and Chatti for an area to win salt from the sea.

...

CHATTI

Eth. CHATTI or CATTI (Eth.??tt??, Eth. ??tta?), one of the great tribes of Germany, which rose to great importance after the decay of the power of the Cherusci. Their name is still preserved in Hessen (Hassen). They were the chief tribe of the Hermiones (Plin. Nat. 4.28), and are described by Caesar (Caes. Gal. 4.19, 6.10) as belonging to the Suevi, although Tacitus (Germ. 30, 31) clearly distinguishes them, and that justly, for no German tribe remained in its original locality more permanently than the Chatti.

...

The name "Katwijk" probably has its origins in the name of a Germanic tribe called the Chatten (Chatti). The Dutch word "wijk" means "area", so the name probably meant something like "the Chatti area".

In Romans times, Katwijk was a place of strategic importance. It was located at the Roman Empire's northern border, at the mouth of the Rhine river, which in Roman times was larger in this area than it is today. There was a good deal of traffic along the Rhine. Katwijk was also a jumping-off point for the voyage to Britain.

Built during the reign of Emperor Claudius (41-54), the town's name was Lugdunum Batavorum. The town's name was later associated with the name of the city of Leiden, but this is now thought to be incorrect.

In 1231, the first reference to Catwijck appeared in records.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katwijk

...

Words tend to have meanings, for Chat (kat, gat, hat): can be related to a hole/ass (gat) or used as in 'kat' (cat,kattenstoet, chat en francais).

For gat (ass) West-Flemish still use the soft 'g' (as for practically all words beginning with g), meaning pronouncing as 'h': 'me hat wè!' (my ass!) :-)

Why kat and gat? Gat -> Ga-Uit (het katje is het gatje dat je ziet:-), Kat-wijk: wijk bij het gat

[Abramelin]

The Batavi and Cananefates split of from the Chatti who lived in Hessen and northern Bavaria (Bayern), Hessen being a German state which is named after them.

Both the Cananefates and Batavi moved west, and the Cananefates settled near the Dutch coast. Socalled Roman milestones with their tribal name inscribed on them proves that's where the CF finally ended up.

From what I read the Chatti were quite a powerfull tribe, and later on occupied more land they initially had. Or maube they already occupied more land or were trying to settle elsewhere under the same name.

==

Words have meanings, yes, and I showed you, but I prefer to stick to ancient languages when being serious and not use MODERN Dutch or Flemmish. Not that I am always serious...

Some Chatti travelled west, became known as the Batavi and Cananefates, and some ended up near Katwijk, and others even ended up in England and Scotland.

Chatti-vik, the area the Chatti settled in, sounds more plausable then your 'area near the hole' ("wijk bij het gat".

But that's just me.

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Van Gorp]

The Batavi and Cananefates split of from the Chatti who lived in Hessen and northern Bavaria (Bayern), Hessen being a German state which is named after them.

Both the Cananefates and Batavi moved west, and the Cananefates settled near the Dutch coast. Socalled Roman milestones with their tribal name inscribed on them proves that's where the CF finally ended up.

From what I read the Chatti were quite a powerfull tribe, and later on occupied more land they initially had. Or maube they already occupied more land or were trying to settle elsewhere under the same name.

==

Words have meanings, yes, and I showed you, but I prefer to stick to ancient languages when being serious and not use MODERN Dutch or Flemmish. Not that I am always serious...

Some Chatti travelled west, became known as the Batavi and Cananefates, and some ended up near Katwijk, and others even ended up in England and Scotland.

Chatti-vik, the area the Chatti settled in, sounds more plausable then your 'area near the hole' ("wijk bij het gat".

But that's just me.

.

I understand.

For me it can point in that case to an exit of a river (and this we call now 'monding' (a mouth) i just wondered -> so I will stop here to associate further if i don't want to loose my appetite with my own associations :-).

[Abramelin]

I understand.

For me it can point in that case to an exit of a river (and this we call now 'monding' (a mouth) i just wondered -> so I will stop here to associate further if i don't want to loose my appetite with my own associations :-).

LOL, instead of thinking of the bottom exit, think of the top entrance: the mouth.

You know that many placenames here in the Netherlands have an archaic form of the word 'mouth' in them: IJmuiden, Muiden, Amuthon (Emden), IJselmuiden, IJsselmonde, and so on. And that's because of the fact they are located near the 'mouth' of a river, the place where a river meets the sea or a lake.

So nothing to do with rear sphincters at all. I hope that info will improve your appetite.

Well, unless you thought of a river as an open-air sewer. But that is the case in modern times with overpopulated countries, and most probably was not the case in ancient times.

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

People, this whole thread is nothing but a course in creative thinking, and having a lot of fun while doing it.

OK, so I mentioned Kadik, the OLB name for Cadiz.

I know Puzz made the next connection already long ago, but I noticed an interesting detail...

Here it goes.

Cadiz:

Gadir (Phoenician: גדר), the original name given to the outpost established here by the Phoenicians, means "wall, compound", or, more generally, "walled stronghold". The Punic dialect lent this word, along with many others, to the Berber languages, where it was nativised as agadir meaning "wall" in Tamazight and "fortified granary" in Shilha; it appears as a common place name in North Africa. The name of the Israeli town of Gedera has a similar etymology.

Later, the city became known by a similar Attic Greek form of the Phoenician name, τὰ Γάδειρα (Gádeira). In Ionic Greek, the name is spelled slightly differently, Γήδειρα (Gḗdeira). This spelling appears in the histories written by Herodotus. Rarely, the name is spelled ἡ Γαδείρα (Gadeíra), as, for example, in the writings of Eratosthenes (as attested by Stephanus of Byzantium).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadiz

Attic? What does the OLB have to say about 'Attic'?

Then we built a citadel at an hour’s distance from the harbour. By the advice of Min-erva it was called Athens, because, she said, those who come after us ought to know that we are not here by cunning or violence, but were received as friends (Sandbach: = âtha).

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bb

So âtha is Old Fryan for 'friend.

Attica (Greek: Αττική, Attikí; [atiˈci]) is an historical region of Greece, which includes Athens, the current capital of Greece. The historical region is centered on the Attic peninsula, which projects into the Aegean Sea. The Attica region, the modern administrative region of Greece, is more extensive than the historical region and includes several islands and part of the Peloponnese.

The history of Attica is tightly linked with that of Athens, which, from the classical period, was one of the most important cities in the ancient world.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attica

So, someone who studied classical Greek would have known of the Attic Greek dialect. If that 'someone' happened to be someone who studied Old Frisian, and if that someone wanted the Frisians to be.... well, what the OLB portrays them to be, then that someone would have considered the Attic dialect to be of importance, based on nothing but "âtha" being an old Frisian word for 'friend'.

Here we go again:

gather (v.)

O.E. gadrian, gædrian "unite, agree, assemble; gather, collect, store up," used of flowers, thoughts, persons; from P.Gmc. *gadurojan "bring together, unite" (cf. O.E. gæd "fellowship, companionship," gædeling "companion;" M.L.G. gadderen; O.Fris. gaderia; Du. gaderen "to gather," gade "spouse;" Ger. Gatte "husband;" Goth. gadiliggs), from PIE *ghedh- "to unite, join" (see good (adj.). Change of spelling from -d- to -th- is 1500s, reflecting earlier change in pronunciation.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gather&searchmode=none

http://www.etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vergaderen

From the Old Frisian dictionary:

gad-er-ia 14, gad-ur-ia, gad-r-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. sammeln, vereinigen; ne.

gather (V.), unite; Vw.: s. for-*, ur-, wi-ther-; Hw.: vgl. ae. gadrian, gaderian; Q.:

E, S, W, R, H, AA 56; E.: s. gad-er; W.: nfries. gearjen, V., sammeln;

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/germanistischewoerterbuecher/altfriesischeswoerterbuch/afries-G.pdf

There we have it: the Attic Greek name for Cadiz was Gádeira

The Old Frisian word for 'gather' was gaderia.

The Attic Greek name for Cadiz, Gádeira, meaning "wall, compound", or, more generally, "walled stronghold" in Phoenician.

The Old Frisian name for 'gather', or 'keeping/getting things in one place/area is gaderia.

You won't have to be a genius to connect the dots in this case.

But the genius who created the OLB tried his luck with the later and medieval "KADIX" (Kadiks), and created the OLB KADIK.

Why? Because KADIK could be explained as "Ka(de) Dijk" or "Quay Dike", a combination of words that better explained the ancient Cadiz harbour.

I think I would have used the Old Frisian gaderia instead, butmaybe they considered that to be a too obvious clue.

[Otharus]

Twelve is spelled TWILIF or TWÉLIF in OLB.

LIF = life or body

TWÉ = two

So twelve originally may have meant two-lives, thus one life being 6.

The sacred wheel of time (still so in India as Kalichakra; wheel of Kali) has 6 spokes.

[Abramelin]

-1- I'm sure we have. Terps and hill-forts were built here too. These lands are only habitable with some sort of water management.

==

-2- Plural.

==

-3- So do Sé-kampar, Lith-hawar, Wit-kénings, Juttar, Anglar, Hér-lju, Sturii, etc.

==

-4- Naming is done by law since 1811, but many families had used the same name for many hundreds of years before that.

My own family name has been used as such for over a 1000 years (origin Switzerland/ Austria/ S-Germany).

-1- Terps and hill-forts have nothing to do with digging canals. They are nothing but artificial hills.

==

-2- Not plural. According to the OLB, most plurals end in -ar.

The -IN or -AN or -EN ending of a noun is a modern Dutch/Germanic form of a plural.

==

-3- There you go: -AR. -AR, -S, -AR -... and the rest is Roman endings.

The only other plural ending the OLB uses is -NE.

But never -EN or -IN.

==

-4- You are right: the first mentioning of my family name is in Antwerp, 13th century.

.

Edited November 6, 2012 by Abramelin