Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

... Diotima... de godvrezende.

Have you read the dialogue between the seeress (visionary, teacher of wisdom) Diotima and Socrates in Plato's Symposium?

The term god-fearing does not describe her at all.

Just like in OLB, where some important people got a nickname that described them(*), I think that was common in the old days.

(*) examples:

NY-HEL-LÉNJA = MIN-ERVA

KÀLTA = SÍRHÉD

SWARTE ADEL = ÁSKAR

JES-US = FO = KRIS-EN = BÜDA

Earlier it was suggested that the etymology of the name Socrates (in Arab Suqrat), might be SOK-RAT (seek reason/ counsil, advise - in other words seek wisdom => wijsbegeerte, philosophy).

If that is true, than it is also not strange to look for an oldfrisian explanation of the name of his teacher, Διοτίμα.

[Knul]

Have you read the dialogue between the seeress (visionary, teacher of wisdom) Diotima and Socrates in Plato's Symposium?

[/size]

If that is true, than it is also not strange to look for an oldfrisian explanation of the name of his teacher, Διοτίμα.

According to Wikipedia the name Diotima means "honoured by Zeus". This would be a better translation than mine.

[Ott]

According to Wikipedia the name Diotima means "honoured by Zeus". ...

I understand the first part:

Dio = theos/ θεός (greek) = deus (latin) = dieu (french) = zeus

I suggest a relation to oldfrisian/ oldgerman words:

Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary, 1832:

theod, thiad = deit, volk

thiade, tiade, thiote, deit = volk

etymologiebank.nl/duiden:

duiden ww. ‘uitleggen, vertalen; betekenen’

Mnl. *duden ‘betekenen’ [...], dieden ‘betekenen’ [...], duden ‘uitleggen’ [...]

...

Het woord wordt vaak in verband gebracht met pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’, zie → diets, en zou dan letterlijk moeten betekenen ‘voor het volk verklaren, vertalen, duidelijk maken’.

Semantisch gezien kan het echter geen afleiding van dat woord zijn.

Daarom is vermoedelijk een ander woord secundair op *þeuðō- betrokken;

dat zou het bn. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ kunnen zijn (waaruit mnl. ge-diede ‘voorkomend, welwillend’).

Het werkwoord zal dan ‘goed, begrijpelijk maken’ betekenen. Zie ook → beduiden, → duidelijk.

Mnd. düden; ohd. diuten ‘verklaren, betekenen, vertalen’ (nhd. deuten);

ofri. bi-thiuda ‘verklaren’ (nfri. tsjutte);

oe. ge-ðiodan ‘vertalen’;

on. þýða ‘uitleggen, betekenen’ (nzw. tyda ‘duiden’);

< pgm. *þeuþjan- ‘begrijpelijk maken’, bij pgm. *þeuþa- ‘goed’ (EWgP 621-23).

Bij pgm. *þeuþa- ook os. githiudo ‘gepast’ en mnd. dieden ‘helpen’;

oe. geþiede ‘goed, deugdzaam’ en geþiedan ‘deelnemen; helpen’;

on. þýðr ‘vriendelijk’;

got. þiuþ ‘goed’.

De homonymie met vormen die horen bij pgm. *þeuðō- ‘volk’ maakt de verdere etymologie moeilijk.

Misschien is er verband met pie. *teu- ‘vriendelijk bezien’ (IEW 1079-80).

When thiuth, theutha = good, it can easily imagined that it was used as "god" too, since good and god were also originally the same word.

I do not see how -tima or -ima would mean " honoured by".

Edited August 27, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

I understand the first part:

Dio = theos/ θεός (greek) = deus (latin) = dieu (french) = zeus

I suggest a relation to oldfrisian/ oldgerman words:

Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary, 1832:

theod, thiad = deit, volk

thiade, tiade, thiote, deit = volk

etymologiebank.nl/duiden:

When thiuth, theutha = good, it can easily imagined that it was used as "god" too, since good and god were also originally the same word.

I do not see how -tima or -ima would mean " honoured by".

I'll have a stab.

tima looks like time - there is a meaning for 'time-honoured' and I could see it being used in this name.

time-honoured

adj

having been observed for a long time and sanctioned by custom

http://www.thefreedi...m/time-honoured

tima may be a meaning for a long time, time-honoured - dio-tima = sanctioned and honoured by Zeus for a long time.

Edited August 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

timia 1, tim-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd. sich ziemen; ne. be seemly

be seemly = be honoured? Maybe

seem·ly (sml)

adj. seem·li·er, seem·li·est

1. Conforming to standards of conduct and good taste; suitable: seemly behavior.

2. Of pleasing appearance; handsome.

adv.

In a seemly manner; suitably.

http://www.thefreedi...nary.com/seemly

I could see a woman being honoured for being seemly; conforming to standards of conduct - especially back in time, like Vestal Virgins were recognised for this kind of seemly behaviour, even Frya imo conformed to these kinds of standards.

Edited August 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Hettema Oldfrisian dictionary, 1832:

theod, thiad = deit, volk

thiade, tiade, thiote, deit = volk

What about dear? Which is rather like 'good' but seems less to change - dio

diōre 20, diūre, diō-r-e, diū-r-e, afries., Adj.: nhd. teuer, kostbar, wertvoll; ne. dear

diotima = dearest (most expensive/highest) standards, behaviour

May be why she was actually honoured by Zeus and Socrates and Plato.

Socrates says that in his youth he was taught "the philosophy of love" by Diotima,

http://en.wikipedia....ima_of_Mantinea

Edited August 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Have you guys seen the updated angelfire page complete with Members Forum and Daily Food Rations...?

http://oeralinda.web...ily-food-ration

Who has 6 hours a day to do knee bends?

Mentioned in there is Abaris, who, Steele is it? has said is Frisian... the daily food ration is based on a recommendation by Abaris.

Abaris was Hyperborean, so that's an interesting conclusion, Plato calls him Thracian.

Edited August 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

But you brought it up, and all I tell you it has nothing to do with anything OLB.

Btw, because all I do is read read read (I have like 3000 books), I can tell you that I read in Overwijn's book about the OLB (1951, second edition) that during the construction of the "Afsluitdijk" (which created the IJsselmeer, the former Zuiderzee) they found a Phoenician amphora/vase of around 2000 BCE. That was in Wieringen (think "Waraburgh"). I think it was on page 36/7a of his book.

I assumed some of you might find that interesting.

And here is that page:

You have NO idea what I had to do to upload this scan. I am stealing electricity, lol.

I hope those who speak and understand Dutch are willing to translate the important parts of this text from Overwijn's book.

[Ott]

I hope those who speak and understand Dutch are willing to translate the important parts of this text from Overwijn's book.

Afbeelding van een Punische of Phoinikische vaas, als tezamen met enige andere gevonden bij de werkzaamheden aan de Afsluitdijk door het Vliemeer (Zuider Zee) door de heer O.Bosker te Hippolytushoef op Wieringen.

Picture of a Punic or Phoenician vase, as found with some other when the 'Afsluitdijk' (Enclosure Dam) was made in the 'Vliemeer' (Zuiderzee) by mr. Bosker from Hyppolytushoef, Wieringen.

De suggestie, die van deze vondsten uitging, heeft de heer Bosker aangegrepen; hij geraakte geheel in de Akkadisfeer en maakte vele Babylonische tekeningen.

[...]

De vazen worden op ten minste 2000 v.Chr. gesteld. Dit is dan geschied door deskundigen, die van het O.L.B. geen weet hebben. Dit komt dus geheel overeen met het voorgaande.

The vases are dated to at least 2000 BCE. This was done by specialists who don't know OLB. [...]

Volgens het OLB klopt dit echter óók en is de collectie van de heer Bosker (een zevental vazen) afkomstig van de Punische (en ook Jonische) kooplieden, die, zoals het OLB verhaalt met zeven schepen per jaar in ons Vliemeer mochten komen, om handel te drijven in alle mogelijke waren.

According to OLB this makes sense; Mr. Boskers collection (seven vases) would be coming from Punic (and Ionian) merchants who, as described in OLB, were allowed into our Vliemeer with seven ships each year, to trade all sorts of goods.

Hiervoor was uitdrukkelijk aangewezen alléén de Wieringer markt, die "to.let märk" heette, d.i. Toelaatmarkt. De vaas is met schelpen begroeid, als gevolg van het lange verblijf onder water.

For this only the market on Wieringen was explicitly designated, which was named "to.let märk", that is 'allowed-market'. Shells had grown on the vase, as a result of its long stay underwater.

Men pleegt de stijl aan te duiden met "Syrisch", wat niets afdoet aan het feit, dat het een Phoinikische vaas is, aangezien de Phoinikiërs Syrië bezetten.

The style is usually termed "Syrian", which doesn't mean it's not a Phoenician vase, as Syra was Phoenician territory.

Ongetwijfeld moet de "Waraburcht", die in het OLB als 'museum' wordt beschreven en in Hensbroek (bij Ouddorp W.Friesland) stond, veel van dit materiaal hebben bevat. Op blz. 62-63 wordt dit in het OLB beschreven.

[...]

Te Terwinselen bij Heerlen (Limb.) werden door de mijnwerker Th.van Zon, Phoinikische sierstenen, scherven enz. gevonden, waarop zelfs Phoinikische letters voorkomen.

At Terwinselen near Heerlen (Limburg), miner mr. Van Zon found Phoenician jewels, shards etc., that had Phoenician letters on them.

[Abramelin]

Thanks a lot, Gestur.

[The Puzzler]

And here is that page:

You have NO idea what I had to do to upload this scan. I am stealing electricity, lol.

I hope those who speak and understand Dutch are willing to translate the important parts of this text from Overwijn's book.

Don't you speak and understand Dutch?

[Abramelin]

Don't you speak and understand Dutch?

Heh, I do, but I had no time to translate all of it into English.

You apparently forgot to read about my 'situation'.

Next time you translate something from English into Dutch. You'll make a couple of people here happy for even trying.

.

Edited September 4, 2013 by Abramelin

[The Puzzler]

Heh, I do, but I had no time to translate all of it into English.

You apparently forgot to read about my 'situation'.

Next time you translate something from English into Dutch. You'll make a couple of people here happy for even trying.

.

Right, I didn't think I was going crazy....

I did read your situation but you just said I hope someone who reads and understands Dutch can translate it, (giving the impression you couldn't) not I'm unable to do it because I have no internet time lol.

[Abramelin]

To give you an idea: my heart starts racing when I hear the elevator going up/down in this building, and expect someone step out from the elevator on my floor, seeing that electricity cable.....

That's why I don't sit back and do a translation.

[Ott]

An utterly interesting series of lectures by Edmund Marriage, relevant to this thread, titled "Learning from History" (playlist):

[Ott]

In the language of the OLB, there are two different words that are both translated as "mother":

1. MODER (or MODAR), and

2. MÀM (or MEM)

MODER is almost exclusively used to refer to:

1. the three mythological earth-mothers, Lyda, Finda and Frya, or

2. chosen folk-mothers, so-called 'mothers' of the people

MÀM is the regular word for what we call 'mother'; a woman with children.

In the current Frisian dialects, this is still the word for 'mother', while in Dutch, this is 'moeder' (German: 'mutter').

On page 191, line 19 (Sandbach p.231), the old seeress Rika severely judges the use of the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition:

[191/19] rika

ÁK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLÁGJA [...]

VMBE THÀT HJA BERN BÉRED HÀVE

LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA [...]

I must also complain about many of your wives [...]

Because they have borne children

they let themselves be named 'modar' [...]

Rika's speech is aimed at the descendants of Friso and his people, who arrived in Fryasland ca. 300 BCE.

Only two authors have used the term MODER where it should have been MÀM, according to Rika:

1. Ljudgert, about Friso's wife (before they sailed to Fryasland), on page 126 (Sandbach p. 173):

THJU MODER NE THVRADE HJRA JOI NAVT WACHTJA [...]

ANDA MODER SAND HI EN BUDA GOLD

The mother dared not wait for her 'joy' [...]

To the mother he sent a bag of gold

2. Hidde, in the letter to his son Okke, dated 1256 CE (first unnumbered page):

VRLÉDEN JÉR HÀB IK THAM UT.ER FLOD HRED

TOLIK MITH THI ÀND THINRA MODER

Last year I have saved them from the flood

together with you and your mother

This second fragment is noteworthy, because it means that Hidde, having copied the whole manuscript, still uses the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition. It means that he either had not read it carefully, or did not take this rule very seriously.

It is especially significant, because even a modern Frisian (speaking a Frisian dialect) would more likely say 'mem', rather than 'moeder'.

Edited September 12, 2013 by gestur

[Knul]

In the language of the OLB, there are two different words that are both translated as "mother":

It is especially significant, because even a modern Frisian (speaking a Frisian dialect) would more likely say 'mem', rather than 'moeder'.

Rika is a case apart. The text seems a persiflage on the wife of Dr. E.H. Halbertsma (Grouw). Though Rika is an ordinary woman, she speaks like a society person.

[The Puzzler]

In the language of the OLB, there are two different words that are both translated as "mother":

1. MODER (or MODAR), and

2. MÀM (or MEM)

MODER is almost exclusively used to refer to:

1. the three mythological earth-mothers, Lyda, Finda and Frya, or

2. chosen folk-mothers, so-called 'mothers' of the people

MÀM is the regular word for what we call 'mother'; a woman with children.

In the current Frisian dialects, this is still the word for 'mother', while in Dutch, this is 'moeder' (German: 'mutter').

On page 191, line 19 (Sandbach p.231), the old seeress Rika severely judges the use of the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition:

[191/19] rika

ÁK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLÁGJA [...]

VMBE THÀT HJA BERN BÉRED HÀVE

LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA [...]

I must also complain about many of your wives [...]

Because they have borne children

they let themselves be named 'modar' [...]

Rika's speech is aimed at the descendants of Friso and his people, who arrived in Fryasland ca. 300 BCE.

Only two authors have used the term MODER where it should have been MÀM, according to Rika:

1. Ljudgert, about Friso's wife (before they sailed to Fryasland), on page 126 (Sandbach p. 173):

THJU MODER NE THVRADE HJRA JOI NAVT WACHTJA [...]

ANDA MODER SAND HI EN BUDA GOLD

The mother dared not wait for her 'joy' [...]

To the mother he sent a bag of gold

2. Hidde, in the letter to his son Okke, dated 1256 CE (first unnumbered page):

VRLÉDEN JÉR HÀB IK THAM UT.ER FLOD HRED

TOLIK MITH THI ÀND THINRA MODER

Last year I have saved them from the flood

together with you and your mother

This second fragment is noteworthy, because it means that Hidde, having copied the whole manuscript, still uses the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition. It means that he either had not read it carefully, or did not take this rule very seriously.

It is especially significant, because even a modern Frisian (speaking a Frisian dialect) would more likely say 'mem', rather than 'moeder'.

Doesn't seem all that relevant to me, it's just like Mum, a more informal use of mother - I don't go around calling my Mum mother, but if I spoke about her I'd say "my mother is coming to visit", when she gets here I'd say "hi Mum" although it seems more used in older times or in higher circles, but even Price Charles calls the Queen Mummy.

If my Father wrote what Hiddo wrote, he'd write it the same...he saved them together with you and your mother, he'd not really say you and your Mum, which is too informal and imo used mostly by the offspring rather than anyone else.

But I'm not Frisian, although English is pretty much the same imo.

But maybe I'm not really getting your point.

[Ott]

But maybe I'm not really getting your point.

Indeed, not at all.

My post was to illustrate how much gets lost in any translation, specially the english one by Sandbach.

Frisians don't say mother, moder, moeder or mutter: mem is the normal word, it's not informal.

The most significant thing that I have learnt from my study of the OLB, is that our languages have degenerated, not evolved.

And with that, our consciousness.

Edited September 15, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

The text seems a persiflage on the wife of Dr. E.H. Halbertsma (Grouw).

Why? Please explain.

Though Rika is an ordinary woman, she speaks like a society person.

An "ALD-FAM" is not an ordinary "old woman".

The word FAM has been translated as "burchtmaagd", "priestess" or "matron". There is no good word to translate it, but anyway they were second in hierarchy after the folk- and burch-mothers. They had a good education and were trained to advise the common people.

Ottema p.27:

"Bijaldien iemand raad begeert van de Moeder, of van eene burgtmaagd, dan moet hij zich melden bij den schrijver."

ALD-FAM = former seeress, burgmaiden, matron, 'priestess'. If the Mothers were considered the wisest women, the Famna would be second wisest, an old experienced one even more than a young one.

[Knul]

Why? Please explain.

An "ALD-FAM" is not an ordinary "old woman".

The word FAM has been translated as "burchtmaagd", "priestess" or "matron". There is no good word to translate it, but anyway they were second in hierarchy after the folk- and burch-mothers. They had a good education and were trained to advise the common people.

Ottema p.27:

"Bijaldien iemand raad begeert van de Moeder, of van eene burgtmaagd, dan moet hij zich melden bij den schrijver."

ALD-FAM = former seeress, burgmaiden, matron, 'priestess'. If the Mothers were considered the wisest women, the Famna would be second wisest, an old experienced one even more than a young one.

My interpretation is wrong. She was burchfam of Staveren.

[Abramelin]

Indeed, not at all.

My post was to illustrate how much gets lost in any translation, specially the english one by Sandbach.

Frisians don't say mother, moder, moeder or mutter: mem is the normal word, it's not informal.

The most significant thing that I have learnt from my study of the OLB, is that our languages have degenerated, not evolved.

And with that, our consciousness.

Languages change, not evolve or degenerate.

And Puzz is right, of course. When was the last time you called your mother "Moeder"/"Mother"?

.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Abramelin

[Ott]

When was the last time you called your mother "Moeder"/"Mother"?

You don't get it either.

In the Frisian dialects, "mem" is the word for how we use "mother" (it's not informal, but the normal word):

min mem is t'huus = my mother is (at) home

ik ha/hew din/jow mem red = i have saved your mother

The whole point was, that if Hidde would have taken the writings of his ancestors (and the preservation of the ancient language) seriously, he would not have used the word MODER, but MEM, as the term MODER - according to RIKA - was a "GLORNOMA" (honorary title) reserved for FRYA and the folk- and burgmothers.

Language is degenerated, because it is no longer clear what the original meaning of words is, causing confusion allover:

The same word can have (slightly) different meanings in different (but similar) languages.

Sometimes (church-) authorities have even deliberately changed the meaning of words, e.g. to demonise things that were once sacred (example: HEL - light), or to disconnect peoples from their cultural heritage (e.g. Mittwoch, the german word for wednesday - german is the only N-european language where this weekday-name no longer refers to Odin/ Wodin/ Mercury).

Edited September 18, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

I see the part you mean now: If there are men among you who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda, there are also women who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya. Because they have borne children, they call themselves mothers;

Mother is a name on par with Frya etc - and regular women shouldn't be mothers, but not mems, they should be feeders. Or even nurses. Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses,

Fryan: Ak wiva ther hjara bern maema lêta an hjara brosta, werthat fêdstra hêten. - I thought breast might be mem but it's def. a form of breast, brost

Thaet Irtha bihwyla warth Alfêdstre heten, aend êne maem fêdstre,

Seems to me even the Fryan language isn't using the correct word, feeder but the language uses maem, mem, a short form of mother anyway.

Vnwisa baern. Hja tichtegadon ekkorum, fen maem-ra dâd

maem

Just some info on mem/mam/maem

English

Etymology

Possibly either conserved from or influenced by earlier Brythonic language.

Noun

mam (plural mams)

1. (informal and colloquial) Diminutive of mother
   

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mam

West Frisian

Noun

mem c (plural memmen, diminutive memke, diminutive plural memkes)

1. mother
   

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mem

I can't find any form of mam, mem or maem in the Frisian dictionary.

mammary (adj.) 1680s, from French mammaire (18c.), from Latin mamma "breast," probably from the child's word for "mother" (see mamma). http://www.etymonlin...hp?term=mammary

mamma (n.) 1570s, representing the native form of the reduplication of *ma- that is nearly universal among the Indo-European languages (cf. Greek mamme "mother, grandmother," Latin mamma, Persian mama, Russian and Lithuanian mama "mother," German Muhme "mother's sister," French maman, Welsh mam "mother"). http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

mother (n.1) Old English modor "female parent," from Proto-Germanic *mothær (cf. Old Saxon modar, Old Frisian moder, Old Norse moðir, Danish moder, Dutch moeder, Old High German muoter, German Mutter), from PIE *mater- "mother" (cf. Latin mater, Old Irish mathir, Lithuanian mote, Sanskrit matar-, Greek meter, Old Church Slavonic mati), "ased ultimately on the baby-talk form *mā- (2); with the kinship term suffix *-ter-" [Watkins]. Spelling with -th- dates from early 16c., though that pronunciation is probably older. http://www.etymonlin...p?search=mother

Edited September 18, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

I can't find any form of mam, mem or maem in the Frisian dictionary.

Friesch Woordenboek A-H (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema