Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[Ott]

Mother is a name on par with Frya etc - and regular women shouldn't be mothers, but not mems, they should be feeders. Or even nurses.

[...]

Seems to me even the Fryan language isn't using the correct word, feeder but the language uses maem, mem, a short form of mother anyway.

Sigh.

Puzzler, you're hopeless.

[The Puzzler]

[/size]

Friesch Woordenboek A-H (1896) Dijkstra & Buitenrust Hettema

OK, well I use this one: http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_m.html

and I found it on Wiki.

[The Puzzler]

[/size]

Sigh.

Puzzler, you're hopeless.

Maybe you are just hopeless at explaining yourself - since both Abe and I have apparently misunderstood you.

[Mario Dantas]

Hello,

Sorry for perturbing your enlightened dialog, but i could not avoid it. There is absolutely no evidence corroborating what i am about to say (so don't ask):

A mother (moder/modar) would have meant only the woman who freely chose the father of her offspring...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

[Ott]

Maybe you are just hopeless at explaining yourself - since both Abe and I have apparently misunderstood you.

I trust that Abramelin or Knul will explain why what I quoted from you was hopeless.

Me doesn't have the patience.

[Ott]

On page 191, line 19 (Sandbach p.231), the old seeress Rika severely judges the use of the term MODER where it should be MÀM, according to tradition:

[191/19] rika

ÁK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLÁGJA [...]

VMBE THÀT HJA BERN BÉRED HÀVE

LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA [...]

I must also complain about many of your wives [...]

Because they have borne children

they let themselves be named 'modar' [...]

Rika's speech is aimed at the descendants of Friso and his people, who arrived in Fryasland ca. 300 BCE.

OK.

Not because it is easy, but because it is impossible,

I will herewith give a translation of Rika's letter that hopes to finally makes the point clear that she was trying to make, about the unjust use of the terms FÉDER (feeder, father) instead of TAT (dad) and MODER (mooder, mother) instead of MAM.

My version is English-ish with some terms in the original language in capitals.

To compare, Sandbach's version is also given in italic script.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ original manuscript page 189-192, Sandbach page 228-233.

BRÉF FON RIKA THJU ALD.FAM.

VPSÉID TO STAVEREN BY.T JOL.FÉRSTE.

Letter from Rika the elder-FAM (seeress, matron),

read at Staveren at the JOL-feast

Letter of Rika the Oudmaagd, read at Staveren at the Juul Feast.

JY ALLE HWAM HIS ÉTHLA MITH FRISO HIR KÉMON.

MIN ÉR.BIDNESSE TO JO.

ALSA JY MÉNE SEND JY VNSKELDICH AN OFGODJE.

THÉR NIL IK JVD NAVT VR SPRÉKA.

MEN JVD WIL IK JO VPPEN LEK WISA

THAT FÉ BÉTRE SI. ~

You all whose forefathers came here with Friso,

my honour-offering to you.

You think you are not guilty of idolatry.

I will not speak about that now,

but today I will point out a failing

that is few better.

My greeting to all of you whose forefathers came here with Friso. According to what you say, you are not guilty of idolatry. I will not speak about that now, but will at once mention a failing which is very little better.

JY WÉTATH JEFTHA JY NÉTATH NAVT.

HO WR.ALDA THUSAND GLOR.NOMA HETH.

THACH THAT WÉTHATH JY ALLE.

THAT HY WARTH AL.FÉDER HÉTEN.

UT ÉRSÉKE THAT ALLES IN UT IM WARTH AND WAXTH

TO FÉDING SINRA SKEPSELA.

You know, or you do not know,

how Wralda has a thousand glorynames.

You all do know, however,

that he is named AL-FÉDER (all-feeder, universal provider),

because that all becomes and grows from him

for the FÉDING (feeding, sustenance) of his creatures.

You know, or you do not know, how many titles Wr-alda has; but you all know that he is named universal provider, because that everything comes and proceeds from him for the sustenance of his creatures.

T.IS WÉR THAT JRTHA

WARTH BIHWILA AK AL.FÉDSTRE HÉTEN.

THRVCHDAM HJU ALLE FRUCHD AND NOCHTA BÉRTH

HWERMITHA MANNISK AND DJAR HJARA SELVA FÉDE.

THACH NE SKOLDE HJU NÉNE FRUCHD NER NOCHT NAVT NE BÉRA

BIDAM WRALDA HJA NÉNE KREFTA NE JEF.

It is true that JRTHA (Earth)

is also sometimes named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess),

because she brings forth all the FRUCHD (fruits, pleasures) and NOCHTA (nuts/ grains, joys)

with which men and animals FÉDE (feed) themselves;

but she would not bear any FRUCHD nor NOCHT

when Wralda gave her no powers.

It is true that Irtha is named sometimes the feeder of all, because she brings forth all the fruits and grains on which men and beasts are fed; but she would not bear any fruit or grain unless Wr-alda gave her the power.

AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA

WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN.

THA NE JÉF WR.ALDA THÉR NÉN MELOK IN

SA NE SKOLDON THA BERN THÉR NÉNE BATE BY FINDA.

SA THAT BI SLOT FON REKNONG

WR.ALDA ALLÉNA FÉDER BILIWET. ~

Also wives who let their children MAMA (breastfeed) on their breasts

are named FÉDSTRA (feederesses, fosters, nurses),

but if Wralda gave no milk there-in,

then the children would find no benefit there-by;

so that, by end of counting,

Wralda alone stays FÉDER (feeder).

Women who nourish their children at their breasts are called nurses, but if Wr-alda did not give them milk the children would find no advantage; so that, in short, Wr-alda really is the nourisher.

THAT JRTHA BYHWILA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HETEN

AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE

KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE.

MEN THAT.NE MAN HIM LÉT FÉDER HÉTE

VMBE THAT.ER TAT SI.

THAT STRID WITH.AJEN ALLE {190} RÉDNUM.

That JRTHA (Earth) sometimes is named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess),

and a MAM (breastfeeding mama) FÉDSTRE (feederess),

can yet go through a curve (is acceptable);

but that a man has himself be named FÉDER (feeder, father),

because he is a TAT (dad, father),

that struggles with all reason.

That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher, and that a mother should be called a feeder, one can understand, figuratively speaking; but that a father should be called a feeder, because he is a father, goes against all reason.

THA IK WÉT WANAT THJUS DWÉSHÉD WÉI KVMTH.

HARK HIR. SE KVMTH FON VSA LÉTHA.

AND SAHWERSA THI FOLGATH WERTHE

SA SKILUN JY THÉRTHRVCH SLAVONA WERTHA

TO SMERT FON FRYA

AND JOWE HAG.MOD TO.NE STRAF. ~

But I know whence this folly comes.

Hear here. It comes from our enemies;

and if this is followed,

then you shall become slaves there-through (because of it),

to the sorrow of Frya

and to the punishment of your HAG-MOD (high-mood, haughtiness, pride).

Now I know whence all this folly comes. Listen to me. It comes from our enemies; and if this is followed up you will become slaves, to the sorrow of Frya and to the punishment of your pride.

IK SKIL JO MELDA

HO T. BI THA SLAVONA FOLKAR TO GVNGEN IS.

THÉR AFTER MÉI JY LÉRA. ~

THA POPPA KANINGGAR

THAM NÉI WILKÉR LÉVA

STÉKATH WRALDA NÉI THÉRE KRONE.

UT NID THAT WR.ALDA AL.FÉDER HÉT.

SA WILDON HJA FÉDRUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTA. ~

I will tell you

how it went with the SLAVONA FOLKAR (slave people);

from that you may learn.

The foreign kings,

who live by (their own) will-choice,

desire Wralda's crown.

From envy that Wralda is named the AL-FÉDER (all-feeder, all-father),

they wish to be named FÉDRUM (feeders, fathers) of the FOLKAR (peoples).

I will tell you what happened to the slave people; from that you may take warning. The foreign kings, who follow their own will, place Wr-alda below the crown. From envy that Wr-alda is called the universal father, they wish also to be called fathers of the people.

NW WÉT ALLERA MANNALIK

THAT.NE KÉNING NAVT OVIR.NE WAXDOM NE WELTH

AND THAT.IM SIN FÉDING

THRVCH THAT FOLK BROCHT WARTH. ~

MEN THACH WILDON HJA FVLHERDJA

BY HJARA FORMÉTENHÉD. ~

Now, all men (everybody) knows

that a king does not rule over WAXDOM (the productiveness of the earth);

and that his FÉDING (food, feeding)

is brought to him by the FOLK (people).

But still they wanted to persist

in their arrogance.

Now, everybody knows that kings do not regulate the productiveness of the earth; and that they have their sustenance by means of the people, but still they will persist in their arrogance.

TILTHJU HJA TO.RA DOL KVMA MACHTE

ALSA HAVON HJA THET FORMA NAVT FVLDÉN WÉST

MITH THA FRYA JEFTA

MEN HAVON HJA THAT FOLK ÉNE TINS VPLÉID.

FORI THENE SKAT THAM THÉROF KÉM

HÉRADON HJA VRLANDISKA SALT.ATHA .

THAM HJA IN.OM HJARA HOVA LÉIDON.

In order to come to their goal

they have from the beginning not been satisfied

with the free (voluntary) gifts,

but imposed a tax upon the FOLK (people).

With the treasure that came there-of,

they hired overlandish (foreign) SALT.ATHA (salt-allies, soldiers),

whom they retained about their courts.

In order to attain their object they were not satisfied from the beginning with free gifts, but imposed a tax upon the people. With the tax thus raised they hired foreign soldiers, whom they retained about their courts.

FORTH NAMON HJA ALSA FÉLO WIVA AS.RA LUSTE.

AND THA LITHIGA FORSTA AND HÉRA DÉDON AL.ÉN. ~

AS TWIST AND TVISPALT AFTERNÉI

INNA HUSHALDNE GLUPTE

AND THÉRVR KLACHTA KÉMON

THA HAVON HJA SÉID.

Furthermore they took as many wives as they lusted,

and the little FORSTA (kings, firsts) and HÉRA (lords, gentry) did the same (all one).

When afterwards quarrels and disputes

sneaked in the households,

and complaints came of it,

then they have said:

Afterwards they took as many wives as they pleased, and the smaller princes and gentry did the same. When, in consequence, quarrels and disputes arose in the households, and complaints were made about it, they said

JAHWEDER MAN IS THENE FÉDER FON SIN HUSHALDEN

THÉRVMBE SKIL.ER AK BAS AND RJUCHTER {191} OVIR WÉSA.

THA KÉM WIL.KÉR

AND ÉVIN AS THAM MITHA MANNUM INOVIR THA HUSHALDNE WELDE

GVNG.ER MITH THA KANINGGAR INOVIR HJARA STAT AND FOLKAR DVAN.

Every man is the FÉDER (feeder, father) of his household;

therefore he shall also be master and judge over it.

Thus came WIL-KÉR (will-choice, arbitrariness),

and just like it ruled with the men over the households,

it went and do with the kings over their state and FOLKAR (people).

every man is the father (feeder) of his household, therefore he shall be master and judge over it. Thus arose arbitrariness, and as the men ruled over their households the kings would do over their people.

THA THA KANINGGAR ET ALSA WID BROCHT HÉDE

THAT HJA FÉDERUM THÉRA FOLKAR HÉTE

THA GVNGON HJA TO AND LÉTON BYLDON AFTER HJARA DANTNE MAKJA.

THISSA BYLDON LÉTON HJA INNA THA CHERKA STALLA

NÉST THA BYLDON THÉRA DROCHTNE

AND THI JENA THAM THÉR NAVT FAR BUGJA NILDE

WARTH OM BROCHT JEFTHA AN KÉDNE DÉN. ~

When the kings had brought it so wide (far),

that they were named FÉDERUM (feeders, fathers) of the FOLKAR (people),

then they went and had statues made of their likeness.

They had these statues placed in the churches

beside the statues of the (monstrous) idols,

and those who would not bow down to them

were either killed or put in chains.

When the kings had accomplished that, they should be called fathers of the people, they had statues of themselves made, and erected in the churches beside the statues of the idols, and those who would not bow down to them were either killed or put in chains.

JOW ÉTHLA AND THA TWISK.LANDAR

HAVON MITH.A POPPA FORSTA OMME GVNGEN

DANA HAVON HJA THJUSE DWÉSHÉD LÉRED.

THA NAVT ALLÉNA THAT SVME JOWER MAN

HJARA SELVA SKELDICH MAKJA AN GLOR.NOMA RAW.

AK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLAGJA.

Your forefathers and the Twisklanders

have gone around with the foreign (strange) kings.

From them they have learned this folly.

But it is not only that some of your men

make themselves guilty of robbing GLOR.NOMA (glory-names, honorary titles).

I must also complain about many of your wives.

Your forefathers and the Twisklanders had intercourse with the kings, and learned these follies from them. But it is not only that some of your men have been guilty of stealing titles, I have also much to complain of against your wives.

WERTHAT BY JO MAN FVNDEN

THAM MITH WRALDA AN ÉN LIN WILLE

THÉR WERTHAT BY JO WIVA FVNDEN

THÉR ET MITH FRYA WILLE.

VMBE THAT HJA BERN BÉRED HAVE

LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA.

Like men are found among you

who want to be on one level (line) with Wralda,

also wives are found among you

who want the same with Frya.

Because they have borne BERN (children),

they have themselves be named MODAR ('Mooder', 'Mother'; an honorary title);

If there are men among you who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda, there are also women who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya. Because they have borne children, they call themselves mothers;

THA HJA VRJETTATH THAT FRYA BERN BÉRDE

SVNDER JENGONG ÉNIS MAN.

JA. NAVT ALLÉNA THAT HJA FRYA AND THA ÉRE.MODAR

FON HJARA GLOR.RIKA NOMA BIRAWA WILLE

HWÉRAN HJA TACH NAVT NAKA NE MUGE.

HJA DVATH AL.ÉN

MITH.A GLOR.NOMA FON HJARA NÉSTA.

But they forget that Frya bore children

without ingoing of a man.

Yes, not only that they want to rob Frya and the ÉRE.MODAR (honorary Mothers)

of their glory-rich names,

with whom they indeed cannot be equal,

but they do the same (all-one)

with the glory-names of their NÉSTA (nexts, neighbours).

but they forget that Frya bore children without having intercourse with a man. Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders of their honourable title (with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality), but they do the same with the honourable titles of their fellow-creatures.

THÉR {192} SEND WIVA

THÉR HJARA SELVA LÉTATH FROWA HÉTA

AFSKÉN HJA WÉTE THAT THJUSE NOME

ALLÉNA TO FORSTA WIVA HÉRETH.

AK LÉTATH HJA HJARA TOGHATERA FAMNA HÉTA

VNTANKIS HJA WÉTE

THAT NÉNE MANGÉRT ALSA HÉTA NE MÉI.

WARA HJU TO ÉNE BURCH HÉRTH. ~

There are wives

who have themselves be named FROWA (ladies),

although they know that this name

only belongs to wives of FORSTA (firsts, chiefs, kings).

They also let their daughters be called FAMNA,

although they know

that no MANGÉRT ('man-desire', girl) may be so named

unless she belongs to a BURCH (citadel).

There are women who allow themselves to be called ladies, although they know that that only belongs to the wives of princes. They also let their daughters be called maagden, although they know that no young girls are so called unless. they belong to a citadel.

JY ALLE WANATH

THAT JY THRVCH THAT NOMRAWA BÉTRE WERTHE

THACH JY VRJETTATH

THAT NID THÉR AN KLIWET

AND THAT ELK KWAD SINE TUCHT.RODE SÉJATH.

KÉRATH JY NAVT NE WITHER

SA SKIL TID THÉR WAXDOM AN JÉVA.

ALSA STÉRIK THAT MAN ET ENDE THÉR OF NAVT BISJA NE MÉI.

You all have the delusion

that you become better through this name-robbng,

but you forget

that jealousy clings to it,

and that every wrong sows the seed of its own discipline-rod (birch).

If you do not turn back,

then time shall give growth to it,

so strong that one cannot foresee the end there-of.

You all fancy that you are the better for this name-stealing, but you forget that jealousy clings to it, and that every wrong sows the seed of its own rod. If you do not alter your course, in time it will grow so strong that you cannot see what will be the end.

JOW AFTER KVMANDA SKILUN THÉRMITH FÉTARATH WERTHA.

HJA NE SKILUN NAVT NE BIGRIPA

HWANAT THI SLAGA WÉI KVME.

MEN AFSKÉN JY THA FAMNA NÉNE BURGA BVWE

AND AN LOT VRLÉTE

THACH SKILUN THÉR BILIWA.

Your aftercoming (descendants) shall be flogged with it.

They will not understand

whence the strikes come.

But although you do not build BURGA (citadels) for the FAMNA (seeresses, matrons)

and leave them to fate,

there will still remain some.

Your descendants will be flogged by it, and will not know whence the stripes come. But although you do not build citadels for the maidens and leave them to their fate, there will still remain some

HJA SKILUN FONUT WALD AND HOLUM KVMA.

HJA SKILUN JOW AFTER KVMANDE BIWISA.

THAT JY THÉR WILLENS SKILDECH AN SEND.

THAN SKIL MAN JO VRDEMA.

JOW SKINA SKILUN VRFÉRTH FON UT.A GRÉVUM RISA.

They shall come out of woods and HOLUM (holes, caves).

They shall prove your descendants

that you are willingly (deliberately) guilty of it.

Then one shall damn you.

Your SKINA (shines, ghosts) shall rise frightened out of their graves.

who will come out of woods and caves, and will prove to your descendants that you have by your disorderliness been the cause of it. Then you will be damned. Your ghosts will rise frightened out of their graves.

HJA SKILUN WR.ALDA. HJA SKILUN FRYA AND HJRA FAMNA ANHROPA

THA NIMMAN SKIL.ER AWET AN BÉTRA NE MUGE

BIFARA THAT JOL INOP EN ORE HLAP.HRING TRÉTH.

MEN THAT SKIL ÉRIST BÉRA

AS THRÉ-THUSAND JÉR VR.HLAPEN SEND.

AFTER THISSE ÉW. ~

ENDE FON RIKA.S BRÉF.

They shall call upon Wralda, Frya, and her FAMNA (matrons, maidens),

but no man will be able to better anything about it

before the JOL enters upon another loop-ring.

But that will only happen

when three thousand years have passed

after this century.

End of Rika’s letter.

They will call upon Wr-alda, Frya, and her maidens, but they shall receive no succour before the Juul shall enter upon a pew circuit, and that will only be three thousand years after this century. THE END OF RIKA'S LETTER.

Edited September 19, 2013 by gestur

[Mario Dantas]

Gestur,

Let me firstly appologise for having asked for the removal of my post! I am sorry, but it is just that one has to be very careful with eugenica and human breething racist (his)tories, these days. I was well advised to be careful...

I am in no way whatsoever a believer of such nonsense. When Charles Davenport wrote the ridicule "scientific" book, "Race Crossing in Jamaica (1929)", he never actually saw Bolt run... imo, to affirm that white folks are superior to black folks is a completely wrong ideology, period

"Usain St. Leo Bolt OJ CD (/ˈjuːseɪn/;^[8] born 21 August 1986) is a Jamaican sprinter widely regarded as the fastest person ever.^[9][10][11] He is the first man to hold both the 100 metres and 200 metres world records since fully automatic time measurements became mandatory in 1977. Along with his teammates, he also set the world record in the 4×100 metres relay. He is the reigning Olympic champion in these three events, the first man to win six Olympic gold medals in sprinting, and an eight-time World champion. He was the first to achieve a "double double" by winning 100 m and 200 m titles at consecutive Olympics (2008 and 2012),^[12] and topped this through the first "double triple" (including 4×100 m relays)."

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited September 21, 2013 by Mario Dantas

[Ott]

Hello Mario,

That's ok, I had not thought any bad of it.

I thought you were referring to the Bock Saga, which I also think is very interesting.

But as I understood it, that procreation system would have been before the Ice Age.

The Fryans may have been a much later subgroup.

The OLB language is very similar to Ior's Root-language.

Having learnt a bit from that sound system before I started studying the OLB, made it easier to understand the Fryan language.

I want to learn more from the Scandinavian dialects and have a plan to travel around there next spring and summer.

Regards, g.

[Knul]

OK.

ENDE FON RIKA.S BRÉF.

They shall call upon Wralda, Frya, and her FAMNA (matrons, maidens),

but no man will be able to better anything about it

before the JOL enters upon another loop-ring.

But that will only happen

when three thousand years have passed

after this century.

End of Rika’s letter.

They will call upon Wr-alda, Frya, and her maidens, but they shall receive no succour before the Juul shall enter upon a pew circuit, and that will only be three thousand years after this century. THE END OF RIKA'S LETTER.

You are right: Modar - Mother is the more official name, used for the burchfam. Mem is the more colloquial name. In modern Frisian mem is used both officially and colloquially.

[Van Gorp]

For me the mother resembled the "Mother Superior" or abdis of more recent times.

As a moeder (me hoeder) she is awake and looks for the welfare of the community.

I can understand that nursing babies is not quite the same.

[Ott]

The "oôt" in my signatury (in a proverb that I read in a westfrisian dictionary) appearantly is a virtually indestructable weed.

Would make sense if "od" would mean life-force, would it not?

In an older Westfrisian dictionary, I recently found the same proverb and there it said that "oôt" is "avena fatua", known in english as "common wild oat"...

(German: Flug- oder Wind-Hafer)

[Ott]

Puzzler, you're hopeless.

I am sorry, Puzzler. That was rude.

I hope my 'translation' of Rika's letter compensated for this and made things clear.

[Abramelin]

I am glad to find out that nothing new or really important has showed up concerning the OLB during my absence.

It is still about dissecting a butterfly.

We don't need wordfck, we need material proof. And if that never shows up, you all will be nitpicking about words till hell freezes over.

[cormac mac airt]

I am glad to find out that nothing new or really important has showed up concerning the OLB during my absence.

It is still about dissecting a butterfly.

We don't need wordfck, we need material proof. And if that never shows up, you all will be nitpicking about words till hell freezes over.

And for anyone living in Hell, Michigan that might not be too long of a wait.

cormac

[Abramelin]

When was the last time you had to deal with hobos, junkies, dealers, and a couple of crazy women (and one of them your goddamn EX)?

[The Puzzler]

I am sorry, Puzzler. That was rude.

I hope my 'translation' of Rika's letter compensated for this and made things clear.

Thankyou, I'll graciously accept your apology gestur.

Edited September 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

We don't need wordfck, we need material proof. And if that never shows up, you all will be nitpicking about words till hell freezes over.

What you contemptuously term "wordfck" and "nitpicking about words" is a detailed study of the OLB language, often in relation to existing NW-European languages.

This study is relevant because it refutes one of the main reasons why OLB was rejected as being authentic: that the language would be gibberish and obviously fake.

(The other reason being that the paper would be 'obviously' from the 19th century, while there is no serious research report to support this claim.)

My posts about Rika's letter illustrates how much gets lost in the existing translations, specially the english one by Sandbach.

[The Puzzler]

So mam/mem is a form of breastfeeding person (nurse etc) from a form of mammary I gather and mother is only a term for the actual Mothers.

So mam/mem is acceptable in Fryan but not mother because Mother is a term for only the Mothers.

Therefore Mum/mama or Mem is probably not a short form of mother but a form of mammary. Like mammals.

Clear as a bell, I think.

What you contemptuously term "wordfck" and "nitpicking about words" is a detailed study of the OLB language, often in relation to existing NW-European languages.

This study is relevant because it refutes one of the main reasons why OLB was rejected as being authentic: that the language would be gibberish and obviously fake.

(The other reason being that the paper would be 'obviously' from the 19th century, while there is no serious research report to support this claim.)

My posts about Rika's letter illustrates how much gets lost in the existing translations, specially the english one by Sandbach.

I agree gestur, I think it's of the utmost importance in understanding the OLB.

Edited September 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

I notice in many myths, the 'nurse' is often different to the woman who gave birth to the child - many children were nursed by other women than their actual parent. I can understand this much better now, so thank you gestur for taking the time to explain this better. This may also reflect in stories of creation, whereby the breast milk is part of the whole, rather than the actual 'mother'. Such as the 'milky way'.

There are many creation myths around the world which explain the origin of the Milky Way. In Greek myth, the Milky Way was caused by milk spilt by Hera when suckling Heracles

Hera not being Heracles natural parent. Not really OLB connected but my understanding has become broadened in this area and may help me in understanding the logic behind these stories better.

Hera is obviously a mem. Many ancient statues elaborate on the breast-feeding qualities of the mem, they are made to be filled with milk and have it leak out of holes in the breast. This in itself may lie in original Fryan ideas.

Edited September 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

So mam/mem is a form of breastfeeding person (nurse etc) from a form of mammary I gather and mother is only a term for the actual Mothers.

So mam/mem is acceptable in Fryan but not mother because Mother is a term for only the Mothers.

Almost there.

Let's focus on the relevant fragments:

1)

AK WIVA THER HJARA BERN MAMA LÉTA AN HJARA BROSTA

WERTHAT FÉDSTRA HÉTEN

(my translation:)

Also wives who let their children MAMA (breastfeed) on their breasts

are named FÉDSTRA (feederesses, fosters, nurses... 'fatheresses'!)

(Sandbach:)

Women who nourish their children at their breasts

are called nurses

=> In this fragment it becomes clear that the noun MAM (from next fragment, meaning mother) is related to the verb MAMA (to breastfeed). This was lost in Sandbachs translation.

2)

THAT JRTHA BYHWILA WARTH AL.FÉDSTRE HETEN

AND ÉNE MAM FÉDSTRE

KAN JETA THRVCH.NE WENDE

(me:)

That JRTHA (Earth) sometimes is named AL-FÉDSTRE (all-feederess),

and a MAM (breastfeeding mama or mother) FÉDSTRE (feederess),

can yet go through a curve (is acceptable)

(Sandbach:)

That Irtha should be called the universal nourisher,

and that a mother should be called a feeder,

one can understand

=> My translation may have been confusing here. MAM in Fryan meant mother, also when she was not breastfeeding. But the word was related to breastfeeding and in this particular fragment it is made clear why it is acceptable to name a mother 'feederess' or 'fatheress', while she feeds or has fed her children.

3)

AK MOT IK MY VR FÉLO JOWER WIVA BIKLAGJA.

WERTHAT BY JO MAN FVNDEN

THAM MITH WRALDA AN ÉN LIN WILLE

THÉR WERTHAT BY JO WIVA FVNDEN

THÉR ET MITH FRYA WILLE.

VMBE THAT HJA BERN BÉRED HAVE

LÉTATH HJA HJARA SELVA MODAR HÉTA.

THA HJA VRJETTATH THAT FRYA BERN BÉRDE

SVNDER JENGONG ÉNIS MAN.

JA. NAVT ALLÉNA THAT HJA FRYA AND THA ÉRE.MODAR

FON HJARA GLOR.RIKA NOMA BIRAWA WILLE

HWÉRAN HJA TACH NAVT NAKA NE MUGE.

(me:)

I must also complain about many of your wives.

Like men are found among you

who want to be on one level (line) with Wralda,

also wives are found among you

who want the same with Frya.

Because they have borne BERN (children),

they have themselves be named MODAR ('Mooder', 'Mother'; an honorary title);

But they forget that Frya bore children

without ingoing of a man.

Yes, not only that they want to rob Frya and the ÉRE.MODAR (honorary Mothers-of-the-people)

of their glory-rich names,

with whom they indeed cannot be equal,

(Sandbach:)

I have also much to complain of against your wives.

If there are men among you

who wish to put themselves on a level with Wr-alda,

there are also women

who wish to consider themselves equals of Frya.

Because they have borne children,

they call themselves mothers;

but they forget that Frya bore children

without having intercourse with a man.

Yes, they not only have desired to rob Frya and the Eeremoeders

of their honourable title

(with whom they cannot put themselves upon an equality),

=> So Rika's complaint is, that these women are unjustly named MODAR, as this was an honorary title for FRYA (and Folk-mothers or Burg-mothers who were so-called Mothers of the people)

I do realise better now how complex this fragment is. It really requires focussed reading and contemplating.

So once more in a table:

A - traditinal Fryan, according to Rika

B - degenerated Fryan, according to Rika

C - Modern English

A_________B_________C____________

MAM . . . MODAR . . mom, normal mother

MODAR . . MODAR . . folkmother or burgmother, also used for Frya

(note: Rika used the spelling MODAR, but everywhere else in the OLB, the spelling is MODER)

So Rika's concern was that the distinction between normal mothers and honorary mothers (of the people) got lost by use of the term MODAR (instead of MAM) for normal mothers.

This texts actually has a deep meaning as it is in a way symbolic for the whole decline of matriarchy (with Wralda as the only real 'provider') and the rise of patriarchy (with many kings, lords and idols who had to be paid tributes or offerings to as they were unjustly so-called 'providers', 'feeders', fathers).

Comparable table for the term FÉDER:

A_________B_________C____________

TAT . . . FÉDER . . dad, normal father

FÉDER . . FÉDER . . feeder, one of the honorary names of Wralda

Edited September 27, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

So mam/mem is a form of breastfeeding person (nurse etc) from a form of mammary I gather and mother is only a term for the actual Mothers.

Some examples to demonstrate that MÀM or MEM simply meant a normal mother, whitout a direct relation to breastfeeding:

(Translations from Sandbach)

IK RÉDE JO THAT J HIM ÀND SIN MÀM TO THÀT LÁND UT.DRIVA

I counsel you to expel him and his mother from the land (p.21)

ÀFTER MÀM ÀND BROTHERIS DÁD

After the death of my mother and my brother (p.127)

SIN MÀM WÉRE THJU TOGHATER ENIS KÉNING

whose [his] mother was the daughter of a king (p.185)

[The Puzzler]

Thanks, pretty much what I thought, maybe I conveyed it wrong.

Mother/moder is interesting in the context of the name for Frya who had not intercourse with a man.

mōd afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Gemüt, Sinn, Mut, Wille, Absicht; ne. mood, mind (N.), intention; (silly thing won't comeup as mod, has numbers in it, and mod has a line over the o, but I can't find how to do that kind of o on my keyboard)

http://www.koeblerge...s/afries_m.html

In Germanic tat as dad relates more to deed, they did the deed, got someone pregnant - rather than tat as teat/feeder - a deed-doer (I would have never guessed that, but it seems obvious now)

German

Etymology

From Old High German tāt (akin to Old Saxon dād), from Proto-Germanic *dēdiz, from Proto-Indo-European *dʰéh₁tis. Compare Low German Daat, Dutch daad, English deed, Danish dåd, Gothic (dēþs).

Pronunciation

• IPA^(key): /taːt/
  
• Rhymes: -aːt
  
• Homophone: tat
  

Noun

Tat f (genitive Tat, plural Taten)

1. deed
   
2. act
   

Edited September 27, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Some examples to demonstrate that MÀM or MEM simply meant a normal mother, whitout a direct relation to breastfeeding:

(Translations from Sandbach)

IK RÉDE JO THAT J HIM ÀND SIN MÀM TO THÀT LÁND UT.DRIVA

I counsel you to expel him and his mother from the land (p.21)

ÀFTER MÀM ÀND BROTHERIS DÁD

After the death of my mother and my brother (p.127)

SIN MÀM WÉRE THJU TOGHATER ENIS KÉNING

whose [his] mother was the daughter of a king (p.185)

Sandbach probably should have used Mum (in English) even though general use nowadays uses mother in it's place. (Knowing that mother is not really mem/mam)

[Abramelin]

What you contemptuously term "wordfck" and "nitpicking about words" is a detailed study of the OLB language, often in relation to existing NW-European languages.

This study is relevant because it refutes one of the main reasons why OLB was rejected as being authentic: that the language would be gibberish and obviously fake.

(The other reason being that the paper would be 'obviously' from the 19th century, while there is no serious research report to support this claim.)

My posts about Rika's letter illustrates how much gets lost in the existing translations, specially the english one by Sandbach.

It only proves that the one(s) who created the OLB knew how to fabricate a socalled ancient manuscript. To make it look more 'authentic' they inserted spelling errors and so on, like we all - non-linguists - still do.

As I have told you before when you were still in your former incarnation, this discussion will be settled when archeological proof of the Fryan civilization finally shows up (inscriptions, citadels), or when some letter from one of the 'suspects' will be found, explaining the how and why of the OLB.

[Ott]

Mother/moder is interesting in the context of the name for Frya who had not intercourse with a man.

[...]

That's the part of Rika's discourse I dislike most.

It shows that the creation myth - in which three primal mothers were born from the Earth and impregnated by the mysterious "Wralsa'd od" - was actually presented (at least by some Famna) as if it were factual, instead of symbolic. This is typical for priesthoods that were despised by the Fryas.

Also, it doesn't make sense. It's not the presumed immaculate conception of Frya that makes her a MODER, but the fact that she was seen as the mother of the Fryan people; a folk-mother. The Fryas saw themselves as FRYAS-BERN (children of Frya).

In Germanic tat as dad relates more to deed, they did the deed, got someone pregnant - rather than tat as teat/feeder - a deed-doer (I would have never guessed that, but it seems obvious now) [...]

From Old High German tat (akin to Old Saxon dad) [...]. Compare Low German Daat, Dutch daad, English deed, Danish dåd [...]

Noun

Tat f (genitive Tat, plural Taten)

1. deed

2. act

Very interesting suggestion. It makes sense to me.

Edited September 30, 2013 by gestur