Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

I do, that's why I think you are Otharus, or he is watching over your shoulder while you post.

Why don't you move on from it if you know it is anyway...?

[Van Gorp]

Hidde

...

I've always expected that to mean it was the father who saved him and his mother, who was Hidde's wife.

...

Last year I saved them in the flood, as well as you and your mother; but they got wet, and therefore began to perish. In order not to lose them, I copied them on foreign paper.

Edited post.

That's the way I also interpreted Hidde. I did not know it was a used name for girls.

That there is a link with Guido and Gwijde is clear i think, only in which direction :-)

For me Hidde (boy or girl) is just the phoneticcal version of 'Gwijde' pronounced in a language with a soft 'g' and y as 'ie'.

In other words G is pronounced as H -> He(w)yde -> Hiede or Hiedo or Ida

Guido is the french version of Gewijde. Like Willem and Guillaume, french make Guido out of Wido.

[Knul]

The name is "Hidde", not "Hiddo", and it is a woman's name.

http://oeralinda.web...ra-linda-book#1

.

Hidde is a male name like in Joast Hiddes Helbertsma.

As Otharus wrote: Moder is not the same as Mem. Moder = Folk-s-moder. She is not the wife of Hidde and Ocko is not their son. Okke, my son refers to the Frisian historian Ocko Scharlensis.

[Ott]

She is not the wife of Hidde and Ocko is not their son.

There is no reason why "thi and thinra moder" in Hiddes letter would not simply mean "you and your mother".

Besides, in 1256 CE, there were no more Folkmothers.

Okke, my son refers to the Frisian historian Ocko Scharlensis.

That's not a fact, but your belief.

Okke/ Okko is and must have been a normal Frisian name, long before Van Scharle lived.

According to Hamconius (1620), it was also the name of the last Frisian druid (late 8th century) before christianisation (page 106b):

OCCO.

Vir ferox;

ac Pontificum Ethnicorum Frisiae ultimus.

Scripsit de Doctrina Druydum:

de successione Professorium

ejusdem Doctrinae in Aula Dei,

de sacrificijs Deorum,

& vindicando eorum culta adversus Christianos

ad Radbodum 2 Frisiae Regem;

qui tamen, Regno privatus,

à S. Adelberto ad fidem conversus est.

& Egmunde pie obijt,

ut patet ex hoc suo Epitaphio.

The (inaccurate) Dutch translation of Hettema (1844), page 341:

Occo.

Een wreet man,

ende de laetste van de Heydensche Bisschoppen van Frieslant:

heeft gheschreven van de leere der Druyden:

van het vervolch der Professoren,

derselver leere in het Hoff Godes:

van de offerhanden der Goden,

ende van haerder eerdienst te beschermen teghens de Christenen,

ende dat aen Radbodum den tweeden,

met welcken hy uyt zyn vaderlant verdreven

ende in ballinghschap ghesturven schijnt te wesen.

Suffrid., De Scriptor. Frisiae, Decad. 6, cap. 1.

As "Ukko", the name is also very well known in Finnish, and as "Uku" in Estonian.

Source: wikipedia/Ukko

Edited October 11, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

Yes, it would be a very general Frisian name - how absurd to think it is any connection to Ocko Scharlensis - he just has a similar name. Knul you really need to add IMO (in my opinion) next to suggestions like that.

http://www.babynamespedia.com/meaning/Okke - this link has a very annoying pop up so you may not want to click it.

[The Puzzler]

With Ukko - how interesting that it MAY go through to Ja/Yaw - then Twi - all variations on Yahweh and also Tyr/Tuesday (based in Twi sound - "Corresponding names in other Germanic languages are Gothic Teiws" - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr ) - Ukko being a very ancient Nordic God.

http://www.babynames...om/meaning/Ukko (same link with annoying pop-up)

In the late Icelandic Eddas, Tyr is portrayed, alternately, as the son of Odin (Prose Edda) or of Hymir (Poetic Edda), while the origins of his name and his possible relationship to Tuisto (see Tacitus' Germania) suggest he was once considered the father of the gods and head of the pantheon, since his name is ultimately cognate to that of *Dyeus (cf. Dyaus), the reconstructed chief deity in Indo-European religion.

I'm also of the opinion that this Gods name is the origin of the city Tyre. It translates into Semitic to Sur, which means rock - this is not hard to imagine as this ancient symbolism is everywhere. Even the Dome of the Rock, the Rock in question can be considered as God - God is a Rock in the Bible.

Definition:

The name Rock refers to the fact that God is the foundation of everything. He alone is immovable and unbreakable

Scripture Support:

Deuteronomy 32:4, 15, 18

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Scripture Support:

Deuteronomy 32:4, 15, 18

He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

Just and right is he - that is why imo Tyr's day is Tuesday and this is a day regarded as the day of Justice, in Australia most court appearances are held on a Tuesday.

The name of Mars Thingsus (Thincsus) is found in an inscription on an 3rd-century altar from the Roman fort and settlement of Vercovicium at Housesteads in Northumberland, thought to have been erected by Frisian mercenaries stationed at Hadrian's Wall. It is interpreted as "Mars of the Thing".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/T%C3%BDr

Mangled into Aries and Mars as God of War but this is not Tyr as above - he was all about justice and stability, you can also read about how their was an original different type of Mars in ancient Rome, not again like Aries/Mars at all, which imo became corrupted by Greeks.

Possibly different from Okke variants with an O rather than U.

Edited October 11, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Abramelin]

Hidde is a male name like in Joast Hiddes Helbertsma.

As Otharus wrote: Moder is not the same as Mem. Moder = Folk-s-moder. She is not the wife of Hidde and Ocko is not their son. Okke, my son refers to the Frisian historian Ocko Scharlensis.

"Hidde" is predominantly a girl's name, derived from "Hilde".

"HiddeS" is something different.

But yes, looking at the letter from HiddE to Okke, Hidde should be the father.

The Frisians often confuse me, heh. There are many male Frisians called "Anne".

And then they wonder why people don't take them seriously, LOL.

.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

Why don't you move on from it if you know it is anyway...?

I do not like to repeat what I posted to someone pretending to be a new poster, but in reallity is no one else but a former poster who knows exactly what I am talking about.

[Ott]

... someone pretending ... but in reallity ...

Believe what you want to believe.

You follow a long tradition of trying to discredit OLB-advocates.

For someone who claims to not take OLB seriously, you spend much time here.

Why?

[The Puzzler]

I do not like to repeat what I posted to someone pretending to be a new poster, but in reallity is no one else but a former poster who knows exactly what I am talking about.

If you know, don't bother repeating it, just play along...like I do. Maybe they have their reasons for it. Let it go Abe.

To clarify the Anne thing:

In the Frisian language it is also used as a male name, in which case it is derived from the old Germanic word element arn, meaning "eagle."^[1] The mid-seventh century King Anna of East Anglia was one such male Anna. A modern example is Anne de Vries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_(given_name)

It's a different root than Anne/Anna.

Either way, Hidde is definitely a male in the OLB context.

[The Puzzler]

Lindwerd = people's cause. ? The actual word does not really seem to have an N in it - it is Ljvd in the OLB. liud or such. Only the translation adds an N making it Lind.

That is what I make of it, according to the description given.

Thêrvmbe is thaet ronddêl nw Ljvdwerd hêten

liōde 150 und häufiger, liūde, liōd-e, liūd-e, afries., M. Pl.: nhd. Leute, Volk; ne. people;

werda (3) 1 und häufiger, wer-d-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. bedingen (V.) (1); ne. cause (V.);

http://www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_w.html

As my father has mentioned, the people, being deprived of their harbour, went away and built houses inside the ramparts of the citadel; therefore that bastion is called Lindwerd.

The people build it, CAUSED it.

a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cause

Just clarifying the etymology of the OLB name.

[The Puzzler]

gestur, I'd be particularly interested in what you think of this next part - disregarding that the name of Leeuwarden may not have existed prior to later than the OLB says, for now - but more about the etymology of the actual name itself in regards to the OLB info. The English translation may have taken into account that the first known name was Lintarwrde - but the OLB word has no N in it. Read this carefully and refer to the appropriate paragraph in the OLB if need be, the writings of Konered. I will use i instead of j as I go (except when stating Frisian official name of Ljouwert). OK, here goes...

Tha stjurar segath Ljvwrd, men thaet is wansprêke

Again no N in this OLB word but the translation is: The sea-people say Linwerd, but that is nonsense

The seamen might say 'Liuwerd' or such maybe, probably not even that but more like leeward (see below) as a shortened/different form of Liudwerd, but I fail to see how they would say Linwerd quite frankly. No N. Not only that but the OLB doesn't actually say Linwrd but Liuwrd)

Lik tât melth heth, sâ send tha hâvalâsa maenniska to gvngen aend hâvon hûskes bvwad binna tha hringdik thêra burch. Thêrvmbe is thaet ronddêl nw Ljvdwerd hêten.

As my father has mentioned, the people, being deprived of their harbour, went away and built houses inside the ramparts of the citadel; therefore that bastion is called Lindwerd.

Some scholars argue that the name of the city is derived from leeu-, a corruption of luw- (Dutch for sheltered from the wind, cf. the maritime term Leeward) or from lee- (a Dutch denotion of a water circulation). See Leeward: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeward

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Leeuwarden

ward in Frisian is like 'toward' and the maritime term (leeward) derives from this imo. Instead of liudwerd it became liuward by the sailors – this into Dutch may have become leeward, note the OLB has werd and then wrda, which indicates to me 2 different words.

It appears then that then the name derives from the word the sea-men named it and rather than be Liudwerd became leeward/liuward. (This accounts for the dropping of the D and change from werd to ward)

warden came to mean terps so they say that part of the word is obvious, but maybe not be the true meaning but rather be derived from ward/toward rather than the original werd/cause because seamans language overcame the Frisian landspeoples language, it progressed to warda (toward – which is nonsense) which then into Dutch became warden which is apparently terps, but not in Frisian. This is why imo the Frisian word is Ljouwert and not Ljouward/Ljouwerd and this word Ljouwert is based in the landspeoples language while the Dutch translation is based in the seamans language and a mistake is that ward=terps in the word itself.

*-ward, werd (3), werth (4), *-war-d, *-wer-d (3), *-wer-th (4), afries., Suff.: nhd. ...wärts; ne. ...ward, toward;

In the OLB terp is therp and could be thorp as in the Frisian dictionary – so the name of Leeuwarden does not contain the word terp in Frisian but translates warden to terp in Dutch – this might be considered ‘ nonsense’.

Therefore Leeuwarden is a Dutch name NOT in etymological alliance with the original Frisian word Liudwert (people's cause) but possibly in connection with leeward but even then the ward would not mean terp as the official etymology has it.

Edited October 12, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

(Puzzler, thanks for the question. I will write a reply.)

Two different fragments about (virtually) the same law.

1) "RIUCHTA ALLER FRYAS" - rights of all Fryas #4

[original text 025/31]

SEND THÉR WÉDVON ÀND WÉSON KÉMON

SA MOT MAN HJA ÁK VNDERHALDA

AND THA SVNA MÜGON THI NÁMA HJARAR TATA

VPPIRA SKILDUM WRITA HJARA SLACHTA TO ERANE.

[Ottema & Sandbach p.39]

Zijn er weduwen en weezen gekomen,

dan moet men haar ook onderhouden,

en de zonen mogen de namen hunner vaderen

op hunne schilden schrijven tot eere van hun geslacht.

If there are widows and orphans,

they shall likewise be maintained at the public expense;

and the sons may inscribe the names of their fathers

on their shields for the honour of their families.

2) "ÉWA FARA STJURAR" - laws for navigators #8

[original text 028/19]

SIN THÉR WÉDVEN AND WÉSON FON KVMEN

SA MOT THJU MÉNTE HJA VNDERHALDA.

SIN HJA AN ÉNRE KASE FELTH

SA MÜGON THA SVNA THI NÔMA HJARAR TÁTA

VPRIRA SKÍLDUN FORA.

[Ottema & Sandbach p.43]

Zijn daar weduwen en weezen van gekomen,

dan moet de gemeene gemeente die onderhouden;

zijn zij in een zeestrijd gesneuveld,

dan mogen hunne zonen de namen hunner vaderen

op hunne schilden voeren.

Their widows and orphans

must be maintained at the public expense;

and if they were killed in a sea-fight,

their sons may bear the names of their fathers

on their shields.

Compare:

1) SEND_THÉR_WÉDVON_ÀND_WÉSON_____KÉMON

2) SIN__THÉR_WÉDVEN_AND_WÉSON_FON_KVMEN

1) SA_MOT_MAN________HJA_ÁK_VNDERHALDA

2) SA_MOT_THJU_MÉNTE_HJA____VNDERHALDA.

1) -

2) SIN HJA AN ÉNRE KASE FELTH

1) AND_THA_SVNA_MÜGON_THI_NÁMA_HJARAR_TATA

2) SA__MÜGON_THA_SVNA_THI_NÔMA_HJARAR_TÁTA

1) VPPIRA_SKILDUM_WRITA HJARA SLACHTA TO ERANE.

2) VPRIRA_SKÍLDUN_FORA.

[The Puzzler]

weson is an odd word to me for orphan, although I can see it is via the Frisian dictionary - I wonder what root word, in any language, that is associated with - does anyone know?

[Ott]

gestur, I'd be particularly interested in what you think of this next part ... but more about the etymology of the actual name itself in regards to the OLB info. [...]

Again no N in this OLB word but the translation is: The sea-people say Linwerd, but that is nonsense

The N is a transferring error. See original Sandbach text here.

The fragments:

[00a/16] Hidde, 1256 CE

SKRÉVVEN TO LJÜ.WERT

[O-S p.3]

Geschreven te Liuwert

Written at Liuwert

[00b/23] Liko, 803 CE

SKRÉVEN TO LJUD.WERD

[O-S p.3]

Geschreven te Liudwert

Written at Liudwert

[113/25] Fréthorik, ca. 300 BCE

TO LJUD.WARDJA BIN IK TO ASGA KÉREN.

LJUD.WARDJA IS EN NY THORP

[O-S p.157]

Te Ljudwardia ben ik tot Asga gekozen.

Ljudwardia is een nieuw dorp

In Ljudwardia I was chosen as Asga.

Ljudwardia is a new village

[143/21] Koneréd, ca. 250 BCE

LJUD.WÉRD HÉTEN. THÁ STJÜRAR SEGATH LJV.WRD

[O-S p.195]

Liudwerd geheeten. De zeelieden zeggen Liuwerd

called Liudwerd. The sea-people say Liuwerd

[206/11] Black Adel, ca. 50 BCE

BI ÁSTEN LJVD.WERDE

[O-S p.247]

beoosten Liudwerd

to the east of Liudwerd

Spelling variety, chronological:

LJUD.WARDJA - ca. 300 BCE

LJUD.WÉRD, LJV.WRD - ca. 250 BCE

LJVD.WERDE - ca. 50 BCE

LJUD.WERD - 803 CE

LJÜ.WERT - 1256 CE

LJUD, LJU = people (dutch: lui, lieden / german: leute)

Plausible meanings of WARDJA, WÉRD, WERDE etc.:

Hettema (1832) dictionary

Wardia, waardje = betalen (to pay; related are dutch: waarde & german: wert = worth, value)

Werda, waeerd = waard

etymologiebank.nl/waard2

waard = low land or land enclosed by rivers

olddutch 'wertha' = land surrounded by water

oldhighgerman 'warid', 'werid' = island

oldenglish 'waroth' = coast, shore

many toponyms ending with varieties of -werd here:

http://gtb.inl.nl/waard

"Wardja" sounds like a verb to me, but it doesn't show up anywhere else in the OLB.

My first association is with the dutch verb "bewaren" = to keep, save, preserve,protect

Thus, a place where the people can be safe.

But I'm not sure. I guess there is no definite answer to this one.

Therefore Leeuwarden is a Dutch name NOT in etymological alliance with the original Frisian word Liudwert...

I agree to that.

And I can imagine that this might have something to do with the lion ("leeuw") being the symbol of the counts of Holland and the house of Orange and it also became a symbol of Friesland:

counts of "Holland"

"Nassau" family (current Dutch royals)

Friesland

Edited October 12, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

weson is an odd word to me for orphan, although I can see it is via the Frisian dictionary - I wonder what root word, in any language, that is associated with - does anyone know?

I don't know.

Etymologysite says this:

old-dutch: weso, weese, wese

old-german: weiso

dutch: wees

german: waise

... and this is interesting:

old-english - as second element in wuduwasa = ‘faun’, litterally ‘forrest-orphan’

Edited October 12, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

I don't know.

Etymologysite says this:

old-dutch: weso, weese, wese

old-german: weiso

dutch: wees

german: waise

... and this is interesting:

old-english - as second element in wuduwasa = ‘faun’, litterally ‘forrest-orphan’

Tis interesting, faun/fawn as wasa might be a Finnish word (vasa) and reminds me of Bambi - an orphaned fawn. Bambi would be a wuduwasa. forest/wood orphan.

Also that the sound faun is at the end of the word or-phan.

Then you have fauna as a term for animals in general, then there is Faunas, a God of animals. Maybe even Phanes is related, rebirth.

After doing some research the word may have to do with vase/vasa/wasa/waser, which means to 'pour out', to 'drop out' - like a baby fawn does when birthed, to fawn/faun also means to give birth (to a deer).

Wasa only means fawn of elk, deer, antelope and not a calf, which has a variation on it.

This to me indicates a proper Finnish name and not one from Indo-European realms, which it has entered as in the word vase etc.

This may also relate to a man's testicles, which drop down hence a vasectomy and other related words.

I'm no clearer really on why waser is orphan but it certainly was interesting to get more understanding on it, thanks for the mention of wuduwasa - wood orphan - forest faun.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

just some notes

... faun/fawn as wasa ... Finnish word (vasa) ...

Faun seems to be related to Pan.

vasa (finnish) = calf (eng.)

seems to be related to:

vache (french) = cow (eng.)

vaars (dutch) = heifer, young cow (eng.)

[The Puzzler]

just some notes

Faun seems to be related to Pan.

vasa (finnish) = calf (eng.)

seems to be related to:

vache (french) = cow (eng.)

vaars (dutch) = heifer, young cow (eng.)

Tricky. I'm thinking fawn as in a deer but FAUN leads one to goat-men. The issue I see may be connected to it originally being connected to deer, fawns - but maybe because Greece didn't have all that many, if any, deer - it changed to goats once embedded in Greece. A bit like Artemis and her association with the hind, another kind of deer, placing her origins in the North as well and not quite fitting into Greece.

In faun, Wiki we have more reference to wood-wasa's. wose here is most certainly the same as wasa/weser... (hypothetical noun..in the Frisian dictionary wesa is 'be' but it does not have the circumflex over the E - see below wesa and wêsa - how DO I do that on my keyboard!!!??? Noting also the typical European woodland God is always a deer or reindeer ie; Cernunnos - deer antlers are even found in Doggerland as headgear, very ancient stuff.

The first element of woodwose is usually explained as from wudu "wood", "forest". The second element is less clear. It has been identified as a hypothetical noun *wāsa "being", from the verb wesan, wosan "to be", "to be alive".^[1] The Old English form is unattested, but it would have been *wudu-wāsa or *wude-wāsa.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woodwose

Note also that Finnish calf/vasa is not cow related - it is only deer, elk and the like. Fawns. Cow calfs are a different form of the word, which denotes to me a less original form.

Finnish

Noun

vasa

1. A fawn, or calf (of eg. a deer, elk or antelope).
   

Usage notes

The calf of a cow is never vasa, but the diminutive form of it, vasikka.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/vasa

wesa 71, we-s-a, afries., anom. V.: nhd. sein (V.); ne. be; ÜG.: lat. esse K 2, L 12; Vw.: s. lâ-s-, of-, on-, ov-er-, to-gad-er-a-, twa-, up-, ūt-, wi-þer-; Hw.: s. *we-s-inge; vgl. got. wisan (1), an. vesa, ae. wesan (1), anfrk. wesan, as. wesan*, ahd. wesan* (2); Q.: S, R, E, W, B, Jur, K 2, L 12, AA 41; E.: germ. *wesan, anom. V., sein (V.), bleiben; idg. *u̯es- (1), V., weilen, verweilen, wohnen, Pokorny 1170; s. idg. *au- (2), *au̯es-, *aus-, V., übernachten, schlafen, Pokorny 72; W.: saterl. wesa, V., sein (V.); W.: nnordfries. wese, V., sein (V.); L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1143b, AA 41; R.: a-twa wes-a, afries., V.: nhd. entzwei sein (V.); ne. be torn; R.: a-wei we-s-a, afries., V.: nhd. weg sein (V.); ne. be away; L.: Rh 616a

wêsa 19, wêse, wês-a, wês-e, afries., sw. M. (n), F.: nhd. Waise; ne. orphan; ÜG.: lat. orphanus K 3, K 11, L 13; Hw.: s. bi-wês-ed; vgl. ae. wāsa, anfrk. weiso, ahd. weiso; Q.: E, R, W, H, K 3, K 11, L 13; E.: germ. *waisō-, *waisōn, *waisa-, *waisan, sw. M. (n), Waise; W.: nfries. weeze, M., F., Waise; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1144b

wêse, wês-e, afries., M., F.: Vw.: s. wês-a

*wêsed, *wês-ed, afries., (Part. Prät.=)Adj.: Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s. wês-a

wêseka 1 und häufiger, wês-ek-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. „Waischen“, Waise; ne. orphan; Hw.: s. wês-e-k-e; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 182

wêseke 1, wês-e-k-e, afries., Sb.: nhd. „Waischen“, Waise; ne. orphan; Hw.: s. wês-e-k-a; Q.: W; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 129a, Hh 182, Rh 1145a

OK, the OLB has a grave accent over the word weser and the Frisian dictionary has a circumflex over it - wonder if this means anything...(not in what it does to the word, which I know, but whether it's a circumflex or acute in the original, which I haven't checked yet.) Either way, in context the word does seem to be orphan. WÉSON - wêsa

É, é = Acute accent (aigu)

È, è = Grave accent (grave)

Ê, ê = Circumflex accent (circonflexe)

Ë, ë = Dieresis (tréma)

Ç, ç = Cédille (cedilla)

Anyway, still nothing connecting to orphan but I'm sure it will eventually become clear following these leads.

Im getting back to Leeuwarden very soon.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

gestur, you said:

Plausible meanings of WARDJA, WÉRD, WERDE etc.:

Hettema (1832) dictionary

Wardia, waardje = betalen (to pay; related are dutch: waarde & german: wert = worth, value)

Werda, waeerd = waard

etymologiebank.nl/waard2

waard = low land or land enclosed by rivers

olddutch 'wertha' = land surrounded by water

oldhighgerman 'warid', 'werid' = island

oldenglish 'waroth' = coast, shore

but you didn't say the one I came up with which seemed the most obvious to me and is also included in the Frisian dictionary: werda as cause. This also sounds a very Frisian term to use as an explanation.

werda (3) 1 und häufiger, wer-d-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. bedingen (V.) (1); ne. cause (V.);

a. The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cause

The people (liud) produced/caused (werde) the town itself - this is what the OLB says. The people built houses inside the citadel therefore it became a town.

As my father has mentioned, the people, being deprived of their harbour, went away and built houses inside the ramparts of the citadel;

I certainly agree that it was a place that people could be safe, as you said, but at looking at a more original, OLB language, non-Dutch related etymology this is what I'm seeing.

You don't have to agree of course and I appreciate your input but I am convinced this is the proper etymology.

[Ott]

A mistranslation by Sandbach (1876),

and something missed (or not mentioned) by other translators.

wini (oldsaxon, oldhighgerman) =

wine (oldfrisian, oldenglish) =

vinr (oldnorse) = friend

fine (oldirish) = kinship, tribe, family

venus (latin) = love

ven (danish) =

venn (norwegian =

vän (swedish) = friend

[093/20] Bruno

WÉRET FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH

[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 129]

was het Vriendschaps- of Winnemaand

at the festival of the harvest month [ ! ! ! ]

it was friendship- or 'winne'- (= friends or making friends) month

[116/05] Fréthorik

INNER WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH

[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 159]

In de Winne of Minnemaand (bloeimaand)

In the Winne, or Minnemaand (Bloeimaand, May)

WINNA = friends or to make friends

MINNA = to love or make love (dutch: minnen)

Edited October 13, 2013 by gestur

[Ott]

You used two sources,

1) www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_w.html

werda (3) 1 und häufiger, wer-d-a, afries., sw. V. (1): nhd. bedingen (V.) (1); ne. cause (V.);

and 2) "thefreedictionary"

]a. [/b]The producer of an effect, result, or consequence.

b. The one, such as a person, event, or condition, that is responsible for an action or result

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/cause

... but you seem to have got confused, because "(V.)" in your first source means "verb".

bedingen = to require, to cause, to condition

Werd, werda etc. can have many different meanings, the one from Koebler (your first source) did not show up in the older oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840).

Anyway, I think names of people and places can be ambiguous (have more than one meaning), I believe that the ancients would have liked the more meanings the better. So if your interpretation makes sense to you, why not. There will have been people who interpreted the name that way, just like I think many nowaday people will associate Leeuwarden with "leeuw" (lion).

Edited October 13, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

wêsa is driving me freaking crazy.

maybe it's about being sad - as an orphan would be.

wê 1 und häufiger, afries., st. N. (wa): nhd. Weh; ne. woe

OK, it is a circumflex not an accent in the original: Sin thêr wêdven aend wêson fon kvmen - gestur you have the wrong one on your sentence. WÉSON (maybe you got confused I jest)

What I note there is that

wêdven as widows has the same beginning sound of wê - this might be something that connects the words - to do with woe - being sad and crying in the makeup of the actual word. Wives do mourn and it's always been something associated with widows. Queen Victoria never came out of mourning for Prince Albert and why she wore black for the rest of her life. Crying widows, crying children/sons, I'm sensing something in that.

I also note that wedven has a circumflex:

wêden 17, wêd-en, afries., Adj.: nhd. blau, waidfarbig; ne. blue (Adj.); the colour of blue would be a noun. woad. This clearly says adjective.

without circumflex:

wedener 1 und häufiger, we-d-en-er, afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Witwer; ne. widower

looking like it should not have a circumflex to be relative to widower, a widow

but to be blue - adjective - can mean a feeling - = to be sad, as a widow would be - relative to woe.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

You used two sources,

1) www.koeblergerhard.de/afries/afries_w.html

and 2) "thefreedictionary"

... but you seem to have got confused, because "(V.)" in your first source means "verb".

bedingen = to require, to cause, to condition

Werd, werda etc. can have many different meanings, the one from Koebler (your first source) did not show up in the older oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840).

Anyway, I think names of people and places can be ambiguous (have more than one meaning), I believe that the ancients would have liked the more meanings the better. So if your interpretation makes sense to you, why not. There will have been people who interpreted the name that way, just like I think many nowaday people will associate Leeuwarden with "leeuw" (lion).

I gave the dictionary meaning so we could see a meaning for cause.

I should have used the VERB description yes: here...

tr.v. caused, caus·ing, caus·es

1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in.

2. To bring about or compel by authority or force

to cause is a verb - if people caused something to happen, that is verb related. A doing word.

It still applies - even though I accidently gave a noun cause.

The people caused it, they were the reason the town came into being, they brought it about - which was my explanation.

Leeuw+warden would make one think it had to have a double w - let's take one out.... or is it lion's arden...? that meaning does not make sense - even though most people might think it to be the etymology.

people causing it (liud+werda)- result being the town - is probably how I should have explained it, yes.

It's important to me as I'm trying to keep to the OLB meanings as much as possible to try and prove it right and give the Frisians credit if it is due to them.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[NO-ID-EA]

wêsa is driving me freaking crazy.

maybe it's about being sad - as an orphan would be.

wê 1 und häufiger, afries., st. N. (wa): nhd. Weh; ne. woe

OK, it is a circumflex not an accent in the original: Sin thêr wêdven aend wêson fon kvmen - gestur you have the wrong one on your sentence. WÉSON (maybe you got confused I jest)

What I note there is that

wêdven as widows has the same beginning sound of wê - this might be something that connects the words - to do with woe - being sad and crying in the makeup of the actual word. Wives do mourn and it's always been something associated with widows. Queen Victoria never came out of mourning for Prince Albert and why she wore black for the rest of her life. Crying widows, crying children/sons, I'm sensing something in that.

what does the accent mean ? is it that we is wee ? then weedven , or weeduen , maybe your woe has something to do with widows weeds , ie dressing in black ? Donning weeds .

Edited October 13, 2013 by NO-ID-EA