Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood [Part 2]

[The Puzzler]

A mistranslation by Sandbach (1876),

and something missed (or not mentioned) by other translators.

wini (oldsaxon, oldhighgerman) =

wine (oldfrisian, oldenglish) =

vinr (oldnorse) = friend

fine (oldirish) = kinship, tribe, family

venus (latin) = love

ven (danish) =

venn (norwegian =

vän (swedish) = friend

[093/20] Bruno

WÉRET FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH

[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 129]

was het Vriendschaps- of Winnemaand

at the festival of the harvest month [ ! ! ! ]

it was friendship- or 'winne'- (= friends or making friends) month

[116/05] Fréthorik

INNER WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH

[Ottema/ Sandbach p. 159]

In de Winne of Minnemaand (bloeimaand)

In the Winne, or Minnemaand (Bloeimaand, May)

WINNA = friends or to make friends

MINNA = to love or make love (dutch: minnen)

What about this one?

winna 79, wi-n-n-a, afries., st. V. (3a): nhd. gewinnen, erreichen, erlangen, erhalten (V.); ne. win (V.) acquire; Vw.: s. a-, in-, of-, on-, on-a-, ov-er-, und-, under-, ur-, ūt-; Hw.: s. un-wu-n-n-en; vgl. got. winnan, an. vinna (2), ae. winnan, anfrk. *winnan, as. winnan*, ahd. winnan*; Q.: R, B, H, W, S; E.: germ. *wennan, st. V., arbeiten, mühen, gewinnen, streiten; idg. *u̯en- (1), *u̯enə-, V., streben, wünschen, lieben, erreichen, gewinnen, siegen, Pokorny 1146; s. idg. *au̯- (7), *au̯ē-, *au̯ēi-, V., gern haben, verlangen, begünstigen, Pokorny 77; W.: nfries. winnen, V., gewinnen, erreichen; W.: saterl. winna, V., gewinnen, erreichen; L.: Hh 130b, Rh 1151b

winning friends, acquiring friends, acquiring anything and everything, abundance...?

As most of the words you give only have one n, except Norwegian. I'm not being picky, just thinking that is the Frisian word given in the dictionary I use.

I agree minne is love - so rather than have the same meaning, it could indicate another usage term for it.

Acquisition/abundance/fertility month or love month. (2 different meanings)

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

what does the accent mean ? is it that we is wee ? then weedven , or weeduen , maybe your woe has something to do with widows weeds , ie dressing in black ? Donning weeds .

OK, weeds, donning weeds, widows weeds - good one. Yes, mourning time is what I'm thinking, you have added to that thought thanks for your 'idea'.

Yes, the circumflex (not accent) the little triangle shape on our number 6 on keyboard - changes the sound of the letter to a longer sound. wee - wei etc. Not like Wed but like wee.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[NO-ID-EA]

I gave the dictionary meaning so we could see a meaning for cause.

I should have used the VERB description yes: here...

tr.v. caused, caus·ing, caus·es

1. To be the cause of or reason for; result in.

2. To bring about or compel by authority or force

to cause is a verb - if people caused something to happen, that is verb related. A doing word.

It still applies - even though I accidently gave a noun cause.

The people caused it, they were the reason the town came into being, they brought it about - which was my explanation.

Leeuw+warden would make one think it had to have a double w - let's take one out.... or is it lion's arden...? that meaning does not make sense - even though most people might think it to be the etymology.

people causing it (liud+werda)- result being the town - is probably how I should have explained it, yes.

It's important to me as I'm trying to keep to the OLB meanings as much as possible to try and prove it right and give the Frisians credit if it is due to them.

having been reading about the escape of the jews, and their flight from slavery , splitting up into two groups , one going to spain , Iberia, and the other to the north , do you think there could be any connection with the "people" being called Ljud (ie Judah ) and then later it being named Leeuw-warda , either lion protection , or lion cause............the cause of the need for protection were Ljud (either jewish people or lions of judah ?? )... just a thought . probably a bad one ???

[Ott]

wini (oldsaxon, oldhighgerman) =

wine (oldfrisian, oldenglish) =

vinr (oldnorse) = friend

fine (oldirish) = kinship, tribe, family

venus (latin) = love

ven (danish) =

venn (norwegian =

vän (swedish) = friend

WINNA = friends or to make friends

I find it remarkable how often in OLB "winna" (to win) is about "winning" people (or children) or making friends.

Here's a list of all fragments I found (the ones about people made bold):

present

[00b/09] RIKA PREBENDNE TO WINNANDE

[004/26] (FRYA.S.BÀRN) NÀMMER TO WINNADE (to win Fryas-children)

[026/19] ÁTHA ÀND FRJUNDA WINNA (to win allies and friends)

[051/11] (SKÉN.LAND) SVNDER STRID WRWINNA

[063/24] (THA STJÜRAR) THRVCH FRÉSE WINNA (to win navigators)

[067/21] TIN TO WINNANDE

[069/09] (THAT SKIP) WITTER.WINA

[075/32] THAT (MODER) NAVT TO WINNA WÉRE (to win the Folkmother)

[089/26] LÁND WINNA JEFTHA BIHALDA

[093/20] FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH !!! (win-friends month)

[109/08] GOLD TO WINNANDE

[111/30] ÁTHA TO WINNANDE

[116/05] WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH !!! (win-love month)

[118/01] RÉD BIWINNA

[125/12] THENE STÉDA WINNER

[152/09] VSA LANDA WITHER WINNA

[154/21] FRIUNDSKIP TO WINNANDE (to win friendship)

[204/21] LAND OFWINNA

past

[001/31] NÉN ÍNE GÁ OFWNNEN

[009/19] THAT BLÁW WN.ET THÉRE RÉINBÔGE OF

[056/07] EN SVN WVNEN (won a son)

[060/17] RÉD WÀRTH WNNEN

[071/03] (SLÁVONA) ANNA STRID WNNEN (won slaves)

[078/13] (SLÁVONA) WNNON (won slaves)

[089/09] RÉD INWNNEN

[089/19] LÁND OFWNNEN

[090/13] FIF SVNA WNNEN (won sons)

[101/30] IST SÁ FÀR WNNEN

[125/18] DÉMÉTRIUS WN THÉRE KÉSE

[146/04] TWÉN SVNA (AND TWA TOGHTERA) WNNEN (won sons and daughters)

[154/22] HI WON (SIN ÉROSTE SVNV) (won a son)

[155/04] FÉLO ATHA WNNEN (won allies)

[157/28] ALLE ATHUM THÉR HI BIWNNEN HÉDE (won allies)

[207/15] ÉNE ÉLE FLÁTE WNNEN

~

some or all related?

wish, winnings - english

wens (wish, desire) - dutch

winst (profit, gain, winnings) - dutch

vinst ( ,, ) - swedish

gewinn ( ,, ) - german

wunsch (desire) - german

wünsch (wish) - german

(! not in the oldfrisian dictionaries)

(? relation WINSTER = left hand side?)

[118/20]

NW WINSTIK

nu wenste ik

now I wished

[119/15]

NVV WINSTATH WI

nu wensten wij

now we wished

[142/21]

THESSE WINST SKIL HJARA VRLIAS WROCHTA

deze winst zal haar verlies wrochten (uitwerken)

this winnings shall result in losses

[210/02]

TO NV WAS ALLES NÉI WINSK GVNGEN

tot nu was alles naar wens gegaan

till now all had went as wished

~

Note:

Latin

venari = to hunt, chase

venus = love, comeliness

Sanskrit

vánate = to love

Tocharian

wañi/wina = pleasure

Hittite

wenzi = to copulate

[The Puzzler]

I find it remarkable how often in OLB "winna" (to win) is about "winning" people (or children) or making friends.

Here's a list of all fragments I found (the ones about people made bold):

present

[00b/09] RIKA PREBENDNE TO WINNANDE

[004/26] (FRYA.S.BÀRN) NÀMMER TO WINNADE (to win Fryas-children)

[026/19] ÁTHA ÀND FRJUNDA WINNA (to win allies and friends)

[051/11] (SKÉN.LAND) SVNDER STRID WRWINNA

[063/24] (THA STJÜRAR) THRVCH FRÉSE WINNA (to win navigators)

[067/21] TIN TO WINNANDE

[069/09] (THAT SKIP) WITTER.WINA

[075/32] THAT (MODER) NAVT TO WINNA WÉRE (to win the Folkmother)

[089/26] LÁND WINNA JEFTHA BIHALDA

[093/20] FRJUNSKIP JEFTHA WINNE MÔNATH !!! (win-friends month)

[109/08] GOLD TO WINNANDE

[111/30] ÁTHA TO WINNANDE

[116/05] WINNA JEFHA MINNA MÔNATH !!! (win-love month)

[118/01] RÉD BIWINNA

[125/12] THENE STÉDA WINNER

[152/09] VSA LANDA WITHER WINNA

[154/21] FRIUNDSKIP TO WINNANDE (to win friendship)

[204/21] LAND OFWINNA

past

[001/31] NÉN ÍNE GÁ OFWNNEN

[009/19] THAT BLÁW WN.ET THÉRE RÉINBÔGE OF

[056/07] EN SVN WVNEN (won a son)

[060/17] RÉD WÀRTH WNNEN

[071/03] (SLÁVONA) ANNA STRID WNNEN (won slaves)

[078/13] (SLÁVONA) WNNON (won slaves)

[089/09] RÉD INWNNEN

[089/19] LÁND OFWNNEN

[090/13] FIF SVNA WNNEN (won sons)

[101/30] IST SÁ FÀR WNNEN

[125/18] DÉMÉTRIUS WN THÉRE KÉSE

[146/04] TWÉN SVNA (AND TWA TOGHTERA) WNNEN (won sons and daughters)

[154/22] HI WON (SIN ÉROSTE SVNV) (won a son)

[155/04] FÉLO ATHA WNNEN (won allies)

[157/28] ALLE ATHUM THÉR HI BIWNNEN HÉDE (won allies)

[207/15] ÉNE ÉLE FLÁTE WNNEN

~

some or all related?

wish, winnings - english

wens (wish, desire) - dutch

winst (profit, gain, winnings) - dutch

vinst ( ,, ) - swedish

gewinn ( ,, ) - german

wunsch (desire) - german

wünsch (wish) - german

(! not in the oldfrisian dictionaries)

(? relation WINSTER = left hand side?)

[118/20]

NW WINSTIK

nu wenste ik

now I wished

[119/15]

NVV WINSTATH WI

nu wensten wij

now we wished

[142/21]

THESSE WINST SKIL HJARA VRLIAS WROCHTA

deze winst zal haar verlies wrochten (uitwerken)

this winnings shall result in losses

[210/02]

TO NV WAS ALLES NÉI WINSK GVNGEN

tot nu was alles naar wens gegaan

till now all had went as wished

~

Note:

Latin

venari = to hunt, chase

venus = love, comeliness

Sanskrit

vánate = to love

Tocharian

wañi/wina = pleasure

Hittite

wenzi = to copulate

Yes, winning month (of friends) or Minne month (love month)

These things all point to a very original language in Frisian imo.

Again, I was not saying you were wrong, just pointing out the winning part in it all.

[Ott]

OK, it is a circumflex not an accent in the original: Sin thêr wêdven aend wêson fon kvmen - gestur you have the wrong one on your sentence. WÉSON

"wêdven aend wêson" is not the original, but Ottema's transcription.

I chose to use É for the long Fryan "E" (and À in stead of Ottema's "ae")

wêdven as widows has the same beginning sound of wê - this might be something that connects the words - to do with woe - being sad and crying in the makeup of the actual word.

Yes, I was thinking in that direction too. It makes sense to me.

[The Puzzler]

having been reading about the escape of the jews, and their flight from slavery , splitting up into two groups , one going to spain , Iberia, and the other to the north , do you think there could be any connection with the "people" being called Ljud (ie Judah ) and then later it being named Leeuw-warda , either lion protection , or lion cause............the cause of the need for protection were Ljud (either jewish people or lions of judah ?? )... just a thought . probably a bad one ???

It's a good thought actually but as the people of Judah (if you equate Ljud with Judah) are lions anyway, you would not need Leeuw to mean lion giving the word a double W, which I doubt it had.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

or is it lion's arden...? that meaning does not make sense

It does actually.

LEEUW-ARDEN

aard = nature, chatacter, quality, temper etc.

[The Puzzler]

"wêdven aend wêson" is not the original, but Ottema's transcription.

I chose to use É for the long Fryan "E" (and À in stead of Ottema's "ae")

[/size]

Yes, I was thinking in that direction too. It makes sense to me.

Isn't it original? I will check what it has. OK, will take your translations (É for the long Fryan "E" (and À in stead of Ottema's "ae") on board for next time.

Cool. I think we are on the right track with that one.

[The Puzzler]

It does actually.

LEEUW-ARDEN

aard = nature, chatacter, quality, temper etc.

Aah. Wiki threw me by saying how obvious warden is the ending (in Dutch). Is that aard a Dutch word meaning or Frisian? Mind-bending stuff.

Or could it be lions GROUND, like the aard in aardvark, where I know THAT aard is Dutch...? I was thinking arden but aard is a good choice of root word.

I still think the Frisian meaning is true to the OLB description of 'caused by the people' - now we are talking Dutch meaning.

Edited October 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

"wêdven aend wêson" is not the original, but Ottema's transcription.

I appears it does have the circumflex because he uses the E with it above it rather than a regular E.

Check Knul's copies - Page 28 Law 8 - hence why Ottema has translated this letter as such. http://www.rodinbook.nl/olbscans.html

[Ott]

Is that aard a Dutch word meaning or Frisian?

The difference between Frisian and Dutch is not as clear-cut as you think.

See the German word Art.

The etymology is not clear, but I can imagine a relation to "earth" (incl. ground and ore meaning), thus Oldfrisian JRTHA.

[Ott]

I appears it does have the circumflex because he uses the E with it above it rather than a regular E.

That page is also not an original.

I have worked with copies of the original pages from the beginning.

Copied them from here to one of my blogs here (scroll down a bit to page 46).

Also I use Jensma's 2006 translation because it has copies (with numbered lines) of the original pages.

[Ott]

Check Knul's copies

Check the last line on this page. Where do you see a Ê or ê?

[The Puzzler]

Check the last line on this page. Where do you see a Ê or ê?

I only see it in the comparison to that shaped E equalling an E with a circumflex over it as per the alphabet page that I linked. A regular E does not have the triangular part in it as I showed in my post #4361 with alphabet page.

[Ott]

The only language that I know uses the ê is French and the first word that comes to my mind is "prêt-à-porter" (ready-to-wear).

That ê sounds like the "ea" in ready and wear (I guess).

But the Fryan E that it represents in Ottema's transcription, is like the Dutch-Frisian long E: ee or é.

(We say "wéduwen" and "wézen". É sounding like "nay". German has the same double ee sound, as in Seele.)

I have also chosen to use À and Á, since they are more like the Fryan A's and more people will understand how to pronounce that, than â.

To understand the language of the OLB, it's helpful to speak it out loud.

Edited October 13, 2013 by gestur

[The Puzzler]

The only language that I know uses the ê is French and the first word that comes to my mind is "prêt-à-porter" (ready-to-wear).

That ê sounds like the "ea" in ready and wear (I guess).

But the Fryan E that it represents in Ottema's transcription, is like the Dutch-Frisian long E: ee or é.

(We say "wéduwen" and "wézen". É sounding like "nay". German has the same double ee sound, as in Seele.)

I have also chosen to use À and Á, since they are more like the Fryan A's and more people will understand how to pronounce that, than â.

To understand the language of the OLB, it's helpful to speak it out loud.

That ê sounds like the "ea" in ready and wear (I guess).

Yes, must be.

I know also French has it too (and thought also that they were the main language that uses it) but as it's used in words in the Frisian dictionary I use also that Ottema has it as one of the OLB alphabet letter equates, as I showed in the E, I thought it might be used in Frisian/Fryan words sometimes as well.

These words all have it in the Frisian dictionary too, when I was looking up wesa:

wêsa 19, wêse, wês-a, wês-e, afries., sw. M. (n), F.: nhd. Waise; ne. orphan; ÜG.: lat. orphanus K 3, K 11, L 13; Hw.: s. bi-wês-ed; vgl. ae. wāsa, anfrk. weiso, ahd. weiso; Q.: E, R, W, H, K 3, K 11, L 13; E.: germ. *waisō-, *waisōn, *waisa-, *waisan, sw. M. (n), Waise; W.: nfries. weeze, M., F., Waise; L.: Hh 129a, Rh 1144b

wêse, wês-e, afries., M., F.: Vw.: s. wês-a

*wêsed, *wês-ed, afries., (Part. Prät.=)Adj.: Vw.: s. bi-; E.: s. wês-a

wêseka 1 und häufiger, wês-ek-a, afries., sw. M. (n): nhd. „Waischen“, Waise; ne. orphan; Hw.: s. wês-e-k-e; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 182

wêseke 1, wês-e-k-e, afries., Sb.: nhd. „Waischen“, Waise; ne. orphan; Hw.: s. wês-e-k-a; Q.: W; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 129a, Hh 182, Rh 1145a

wêselīn 1 und häufiger, wês-e-līn, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Waislein, Waise; ne. little orphan; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 129a

wêsenkind 1 und häufiger, wês-en-kin-d, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Waisenkind; ne. orphan child; E.: s. wês-a, kin-d; L.: Hh 182

wêsenklīn 1 und häufiger, wês-enk-līn, afries., st. N. (a): nhd. Waislein, Waise; ne. little orphan; E.: s. wês-a; L.: Hh 129a, hh 182, Rh 1145a

There is many others too - could it be that these are French words (or loanwords, maybe Norwegian)? If so, one wonders why the word orphan in the OLB has it, transliterated by Ottema and it's also in it - Ottema has basically stated that the E (in the OLB alphabet) that translates as it is one with circumflex - but must not really be - it must not be a Fryan word to also be in the dictionary entries above with a circumflex, used as a loanword even in the OLB.

Maybe it was once more common and now is not used in it...?

http://english.turkc....com/Circumflex (general info, doesn't mention Frisian but does say Norwegian uses them)

West Frisian uses the Latin alphabet. A, E, O and U may be accompanied by circumflex or acute accents..... no wonder anyone is confused.

http://en.wikipedia....risian_language

So, basically, a true Fryan word would have é rather than ê today, which makes sense anyway from everything I know, English doesn't have it nor do I ever think it did.

I do say the words out loud, often that's how I can identify the word into English.

Edited October 14, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Ott]

These words all have it in the Frisian dictionary too, when I was looking up wesa:

That is a new online dictionary by the German scolar Köbler.

Older Oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840) don't use the ê.

I wanted to make the OLB more accessible to a larger audience, that's why I have chosen letters that are more easy to read. For example I simply use TH instead of the Ð that Knul uses. He also uses Ů that I have no idea how to pronounce.

I still don't know what to think of the ô.

[The Puzzler]

Just doing some research on good Frisian language books, I came across this in a review of a book titled The Frisian Language and Literature.

A very slim book, out of print, but revealing just how far English has come from its continental roots. Frisian is probably the closest language to English anyway, but even so isn't as close as you would expect if "English" existed as a separate language only from the 5th-6th centuries. The hypothesis that a pre-cursor to English, of Germanic stock, predates even Anglo-Saxon (or Old English) is fascinating. This is not a hypothesis presented in this book which is about the Frisian language, but it shows that the Frisian languiage and the English languages are farther apart than might be expected.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Frisian-language-literature-historical/dp/B004S8NXJ0/?tag=vglnk-c1305-20

[Knul]

To understand the language of the OLB, it's helpful to speak it out loud.

, so that

Wouldn't be useful to follow the transcription by Koebler ? The OLB words could be integrated into his Old Frisian dictionary. This would facilitate references very much. Please, think it over.

[The Puzzler]

I want this one, though at $251.00 I doubt I'll get it any day soon...

http://www.brill.com...ical-dictionary (an etymological dictionary)

Are their any older dictionaries (Older Oldfrisian dictionaries (Wiarda 1786, Hettema 1832, Richthofen 1840) like the Koebler one online anyone knows of for me to use...?

I'm sure there has been references here but I have just used that one, as I like it, but might be good to look at older ones also.

Edited October 14, 2013 by The Puzzler

[NO-ID-EA]

It's a good thought actually but as the people of Judah (if you equate Ljud with Judah) are lions anyway, you would not need Leeuw to mean lion giving the word a double W, which I doubt it had.

Maybe not a double W , but it may have had the double V, ie. LeeuVVarden

[Abramelin]

Interesting you start about the -W- .

We've had this discussion before, and the -W- is the letter missing from the lettersheet in the OLB (and in Ottema's translation). As "Apol" showed, both double V, -VV- , and -W- are being used in the OLB.

Is the letter -W- a real separate letter? It is (and look at the left Yule wheel) :

If it was a double V, that's two Vs, then the name "Wralda" would not have fit around the Yule wheel.

The TH letter of the OLB alphabet is also composed of two letters, T and H, but it still is a separate letter.

=

I have discovered something interesting, another coincidence if you like.

The alphabet as used in the OLB consists of 32 letters. But, adding the -W- , we get 33 letters.

This total of 33 letters is the same as the 33 runes in the socalled Anglo-Saxon Futhork, the rune alphabet of the Anglo-Saxons. This rune alphabet is an extension of the older Futhark (yes, with an -A- ) which consisted of 24 runes; the 33-runes Futhork was in use among the Frisians in the Netherlands and North Germany and in Anglo-Saxon England. It's other name is Anglo-Frisian Futhork.

( Source: "Runelore" by Edred Thorssson. A large part of the book is about the history and origins of the runes. An interesting read for anyone interested in runes and their history)

.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Abramelin

[Abramelin]

It does actually.

LEEUW-ARDEN

aard = nature, chatacter, quality, temper etc.

The name "Leeuwarden" (or older spelling variants) first came into use for Nijehove, the most important one of the three villages that later merged into one, in the early 9th century (Villa Lintarwrde c. 825).^[7]

There is much uncertainty about the origin of the city's name. Historian and archivist Wopke Eekhoff summed up a total of over 200 different spelling variants, of which Leeuwarden (Dutch), Liwwadden (Stadsfries) and Ljouwert (West Frisian) are still in use.^[8]

The second syllable is easily explained. Warden, Frisian/Dutch for an artificial dwelling hill, is a designation of a few terps, reflecting the historical situation.^[8] The first part of the name, leeuw, means lion in modern standard Dutch. This interpretation corresponds with the coat of arms adopted by the city, which features a heraldic lion. However, modern standard Dutch was not used in this region in the Middle Ages, when the city was called Lintarwrde. Some scholars argue that the name of the city is derived from leeu-, a corruption of luw- (Dutch for sheltered from the wind, cf. the maritime term Leeward) or from lee- (a Dutch denotion of a water circulation). The last one suits the watery province of Fryslân.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leeuwarden

Makes sense to me.

[Ott]

about the -W-

Language is not mathematics.

Sometimes the 'double-U' was seen as one letter, sometimes as two.

Sometimes it is pronounced as in "wit", sometimes as in "ooze".